"You missed Mister Bond!"..."Did I?"...The Missed Opportunities of Never Say Never Again

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  • Posts: 15,116
    echo wrote: »
    I too would like to see a closer adaptation of MR but by the '70s the filmmakers had clearly strayed far from any Fleming...

    That was a missed opportunity come MR, to get stories closer to Fleming. They did way better in FYEO.
  • Posts: 4,139
    Weirdly I haven’t found very much info about scrapped ideas or early drafts when it comes to MR. I know James Mason was originally considered for Drax, but I wouldn’t count that as I think Lonsdale is great. I love the original novel but I’m not sure if it’s ever been suitable for a faithful film adaptation. Anyway, after TSWLM I can see why they wanted to go even bigger. I actually think it works as a film, for all its silliness.

    So yeah, I don’t know… perhaps not using the Gala Brand name? Even for a Moore era Bond film the name Goodhead is a bit much.
  • edited December 2023 Posts: 15,116
    007HallY wrote: »
    Weirdly I haven’t found very much info about scrapped ideas or early drafts when it comes to MR. I know James Mason was originally considered for Drax, but I wouldn’t count that as I think Lonsdale is great. I love the original novel but I’m not sure if it’s ever been suitable for a faithful film adaptation. Anyway, after TSWLM I can see why they wanted to go even bigger. I actually think it works as a film, for all its silliness.

    So yeah, I don’t know… perhaps not using the Gala Brand name? Even for a Moore era Bond film the name Goodhead is a bit much.

    There's always degrees of faithfulness in an adaptation. They could have made it closer to the novel and still keep it outlandish and keep the globe trotting elements, etc.

    Then again they borrowed so much from MR in subsequent films, had they made a more faithful adaptation maybe it would have been detrimental to the other ones, who knows.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,423
    I find it interesting that they have never used Gala Brand as a character name, if not even her back story. They teased this with Camille in QOS as her and Bond never really showed romantic interest. You would think it would be a good take on the "Bond girl".

    Hugo Drax as a book character is worthy of a screen adaption too. Though given the tone of this film I am glad they went in a different direction.

    I think the whole boat chase in this movie is a missed opportunity. It needed more tension and high stakes. The score of Barry doesn't help it with a very slow version of 007. Though it was nice to hear this track return. I would have liked to have had some more tension with Bond feeling more in danger. As it is it falls flat and yet they have a beautiful back drop for a boat chase and a menacing baddie chasing Bond.
  • Posts: 9,846
    For moonraker honestly the biggest issue is that there wasnt a from russia with love style game in 2006 with Moore reprising his role
  • Posts: 1,340
    They promised us the moon and it's only half an hour.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,383
    Risico007 wrote: »
    For moonraker honestly the biggest issue is that there wasnt a from russia with love style game in 2006 with Moore reprising his role

    That would have been wonderful.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited January 1 Posts: 6,297
    thedove wrote: »
    I find it interesting that they have never used Gala Brand as a character name, if not even her back story. They teased this with Camille in QOS as her and Bond never really showed romantic interest. You would think it would be a good take on the "Bond girl".

    Hugo Drax as a book character is worthy of a screen adaption too. Though given the tone of this film I am glad they went in a different direction.

    I think the whole boat chase in this movie is a missed opportunity. It needed more tension and high stakes. The score of Barry doesn't help it with a very slow version of 007. Though it was nice to hear this track return. I would have liked to have had some more tension with Bond feeling more in danger. As it is it falls flat and yet they have a beautiful back drop for a boat chase and a menacing baddie chasing Bond.

    Also, why are there *two* boat chases?

    @007HallY, MR was originally optioned by a different production company (The Rank Organisation, I think). That's why Eon didn't get the MR rights until the late '60s, possibly when the Rank option was up.

    Rank probably did commission a screenplay or two.

    This is also why we didn't get a closer Eon MR adaptation in the early-mid '60s when the original story might not have felt dated.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,629
    echo wrote: »
    thedove wrote: »
    I find it interesting that they have never used Gala Brand as a character name, if not even her back story. They teased this with Camille in QOS as her and Bond never really showed romantic interest. You would think it would be a good take on the "Bond girl".

    Hugo Drax as a book character is worthy of a screen adaption too. Though given the tone of this film I am glad they went in a different direction.

    I think the whole boat chase in this movie is a missed opportunity. It needed more tension and high stakes. The score of Barry doesn't help it with a very slow version of 007. Though it was nice to hear this track return. I would have liked to have had some more tension with Bond feeling more in danger. As it is it falls flat and yet they have a beautiful back drop for a boat chase and a menacing baddie chasing Bond.

    Also, why are there *two* boat chases?

    @007HallY, MR was originally optioned by a different production company (The Rank Organisation, I think). That's why Eon didn't get the MR rights until the late '60s, possibly when the Rank option was up.

    Rank probably did commission a screenplay or two.

    This is also why we didn't get a closer Eon MR adaptation in the early-mid '60s when the original story might not have felt dated.

    Do we have the scripts in the Bond scripts thread?
  • Posts: 15,116
    echo wrote: »
    thedove wrote: »
    I find it interesting that they have never used Gala Brand as a character name, if not even her back story. They teased this with Camille in QOS as her and Bond never really showed romantic interest. You would think it would be a good take on the "Bond girl".

    Hugo Drax as a book character is worthy of a screen adaption too. Though given the tone of this film I am glad they went in a different direction.

    I think the whole boat chase in this movie is a missed opportunity. It needed more tension and high stakes. The score of Barry doesn't help it with a very slow version of 007. Though it was nice to hear this track return. I would have liked to have had some more tension with Bond feeling more in danger. As it is it falls flat and yet they have a beautiful back drop for a boat chase and a menacing baddie chasing Bond.

    Also, why are there *two* boat chases?

    @007HallY, MR was originally optioned by a different production company (The Rank Organisation, I think). That's why Eon didn't get the MR rights until the late '60s, possibly when the Rank option was up.

    Rank probably did commission a screenplay or two.

    This is also why we didn't get a closer Eon MR adaptation in the early-mid '60s when the original story might not have felt dated.

    Maybe that was the big missed opportunity: that it wasn't filmed earlier in the franchise .
  • Posts: 4,139
    Ludovico wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    thedove wrote: »
    I find it interesting that they have never used Gala Brand as a character name, if not even her back story. They teased this with Camille in QOS as her and Bond never really showed romantic interest. You would think it would be a good take on the "Bond girl".

    Hugo Drax as a book character is worthy of a screen adaption too. Though given the tone of this film I am glad they went in a different direction.

    I think the whole boat chase in this movie is a missed opportunity. It needed more tension and high stakes. The score of Barry doesn't help it with a very slow version of 007. Though it was nice to hear this track return. I would have liked to have had some more tension with Bond feeling more in danger. As it is it falls flat and yet they have a beautiful back drop for a boat chase and a menacing baddie chasing Bond.

    Also, why are there *two* boat chases?

    @007HallY, MR was originally optioned by a different production company (The Rank Organisation, I think). That's why Eon didn't get the MR rights until the late '60s, possibly when the Rank option was up.

    Rank probably did commission a screenplay or two.

    This is also why we didn't get a closer Eon MR adaptation in the early-mid '60s when the original story might not have felt dated.

    Maybe that was the big missed opportunity: that it wasn't filmed earlier in the franchise .

    Did not know that @echo. That’s interesting.

    An earlier MR closer to the novel is a cool thought. I suspect things like Drax’s Nazi past would have been rejigged slightly (perhaps he’d have been an ex-Nazi who now works for SPECTRE? Just something to keep the film series as widely distributable as possible without touching on then relatively recent atrocities in a key European country/market). I’m not sure if I can imagine Maibaum or the other writers at the time finding the ins and outs of Bond’s desk job all that interesting. It’s possible we would have gotten a GF type adaptation with an elaborate PTS which leads into Bond getting roped into thwarting Drax’s cheating (possibly M’s involvement may have been written out). Perhaps if it’d have been filmed post TB they would have adapted the story to be set in a different location as opposed to completely in England/London?
  • edited January 1 Posts: 1,340
    Nazis in movies were very common.
  • Posts: 15,116
    Nazis in movies were very common.

    Even in musicals, like The Sound of Music.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Nazis in movies were very common.

    I think what @007HallY is implying, is that EoN wanted to keep their films as a politics-free zone.

  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,383
    007HallY wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    thedove wrote: »
    I find it interesting that they have never used Gala Brand as a character name, if not even her back story. They teased this with Camille in QOS as her and Bond never really showed romantic interest. You would think it would be a good take on the "Bond girl".

    Hugo Drax as a book character is worthy of a screen adaption too. Though given the tone of this film I am glad they went in a different direction.

    I think the whole boat chase in this movie is a missed opportunity. It needed more tension and high stakes. The score of Barry doesn't help it with a very slow version of 007. Though it was nice to hear this track return. I would have liked to have had some more tension with Bond feeling more in danger. As it is it falls flat and yet they have a beautiful back drop for a boat chase and a menacing baddie chasing Bond.

    Also, why are there *two* boat chases?

    @007HallY, MR was originally optioned by a different production company (The Rank Organisation, I think). That's why Eon didn't get the MR rights until the late '60s, possibly when the Rank option was up.

    Rank probably did commission a screenplay or two.

    This is also why we didn't get a closer Eon MR adaptation in the early-mid '60s when the original story might not have felt dated.

    Maybe that was the big missed opportunity: that it wasn't filmed earlier in the franchise .

    Did not know that @echo. That’s interesting.

    An earlier MR closer to the novel is a cool thought. I suspect things like Drax’s Nazi past would have been rejigged slightly (perhaps he’d have been an ex-Nazi who now works for SPECTRE? Just something to keep the film series as widely distributable as possible without touching on then relatively recent atrocities in a key European country/market). I’m not sure if I can imagine Maibaum or the other writers at the time finding the ins and outs of Bond’s desk job all that interesting. It’s possible we would have gotten a GF type adaptation with an elaborate PTS which leads into Bond getting roped into thwarting Drax’s cheating (possibly M’s involvement may have been written out). Perhaps if it’d have been filmed post TB they would have adapted the story to be set in a different location as opposed to completely in England/London?

    I guess in terms of adapting the book, it perhaps is a bit of a missed opportunity that they didn't have M asking Bond for a little off-the-books help as he does in the book, as Lee's M and Roger's Bond had quite an interesting relationship onscreen with lots of eye-rolling etc. and ending it on a warmer note might have been good to see.
  • edited January 1 Posts: 4,139
    peter wrote: »
    Nazis in movies were very common.

    I think what @007HallY is implying, is that EoN wanted to keep their films as a politics-free zone.

    Yeah, pretty much. I think something would have been different in adaptation when it came to Drax's character (I doubt they would have completely erased the Nazi past/overtones though - even in the MR we got his plan is very much centred around creating a 'master race').
    mtm wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    thedove wrote: »
    I find it interesting that they have never used Gala Brand as a character name, if not even her back story. They teased this with Camille in QOS as her and Bond never really showed romantic interest. You would think it would be a good take on the "Bond girl".

    Hugo Drax as a book character is worthy of a screen adaption too. Though given the tone of this film I am glad they went in a different direction.

    I think the whole boat chase in this movie is a missed opportunity. It needed more tension and high stakes. The score of Barry doesn't help it with a very slow version of 007. Though it was nice to hear this track return. I would have liked to have had some more tension with Bond feeling more in danger. As it is it falls flat and yet they have a beautiful back drop for a boat chase and a menacing baddie chasing Bond.

    Also, why are there *two* boat chases?

    @007HallY, MR was originally optioned by a different production company (The Rank Organisation, I think). That's why Eon didn't get the MR rights until the late '60s, possibly when the Rank option was up.

    Rank probably did commission a screenplay or two.

    This is also why we didn't get a closer Eon MR adaptation in the early-mid '60s when the original story might not have felt dated.

    Maybe that was the big missed opportunity: that it wasn't filmed earlier in the franchise .

    Did not know that @echo. That’s interesting.

    An earlier MR closer to the novel is a cool thought. I suspect things like Drax’s Nazi past would have been rejigged slightly (perhaps he’d have been an ex-Nazi who now works for SPECTRE? Just something to keep the film series as widely distributable as possible without touching on then relatively recent atrocities in a key European country/market). I’m not sure if I can imagine Maibaum or the other writers at the time finding the ins and outs of Bond’s desk job all that interesting. It’s possible we would have gotten a GF type adaptation with an elaborate PTS which leads into Bond getting roped into thwarting Drax’s cheating (possibly M’s involvement may have been written out). Perhaps if it’d have been filmed post TB they would have adapted the story to be set in a different location as opposed to completely in England/London?

    I guess in terms of adapting the book, it perhaps is a bit of a missed opportunity that they didn't have M asking Bond for a little off-the-books help as he does in the book, as Lee's M and Roger's Bond had quite an interesting relationship onscreen with lots of eye-rolling etc. and ending it on a warmer note might have been good to see.

    Yes, it's something that we've never quite seen in the films, but happens a handful of times in the Fleming books. Maybe for a future film.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,423
    I really enjoy that short scene with Bond and M in Venice after Drax has dismantled the lab. Great stuff and you get a real sense of the respect both have for each other. The Bond M dynamic was softened in Spy and MR. A shame it's the last film to have Bernard Lee. He was M, I picture him when reading the books.

  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited January 1 Posts: 16,383
    thedove wrote: »
    I really enjoy that short scene with Bond and M in Venice after Drax has dismantled the lab. Great stuff and you get a real sense of the respect both have for each other.

    I mean, it sort of is, but then M also has the line "So there was a lab" when Bond shows him proof - why on Earth wouldn't he have believed Bond before that? He's his most trusted super agent :D
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,423
    Good point @mtm still love the warmness and then the sharp kick at the end.

    Okay, our spy had now gone to space! Where else could they send him?

    It had to be back to a more grounded adventure. Not a space laser in sight, no henchmen with metal teeth. In fact this stripped down adventure packs a punch without many gadgets, unless we count Q's computer.

    I am talking about For Your Eyes Only. A Bond adventure that harkens back to FRWL, OHMSS in that Bond is back in action but that action is grounded. The one-liners are kept to a minimum. But oh what a delicious scene of Bond kicking a car over the edge. Kneel hauling from LALD makes an appearance. But were there missed opportunities with this film?

    Did this film style and focus fit Roger Moore? Dare I say was this a missed opportunity? The score from Bill Conti was quite true and funky in the 80's, now it sounds a little dated. Did the producers mess up the dynamic between Bond and Melina? How about the lovely Bibi Dahl?

    Lets hear it community members:

    What are the missed opportunities of For Your Eyes Only?

    369b753b9328f84abe2e0ae2b1a09be6_XL.jpg

    Small disclaimer, this is not about a critique of the film, but rather a thing you think is missing from the movie? Maybe a character who doesn't have a great fleshed out character, or a story line that never really pays off? Maybe an action sequence that needed more or less time?
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,629
    I wish Bernard Lee could have filmed a scene as M. I’m happy with Q’s expanded role though.
  • Posts: 15,116
    It's hard to fault the movie. I think they got pretty much everything right. Maybe they could have made the PTS less comedic, given Bond's history with Blofeld. But I far prefer FYEO to the previous two entries and they needed a more grounded film. I think without FYEO as it is, we wouldn't have had the Dalton era. And Moore needed to sell this different approach, so I'm glad they didn't recast Bond.
  • Even though many love her: I feel like Melina is a missed opportunity. The extreme focus on the "Risico" short story takes away any impact her character has and ultimately she should be done with it all after the car chase. By killing Gonzales, she gets her revenge, she's done, and there's also no need for her to be with Bond because she's overcome her own emotional conflict. If Melina had killed Gonzales, after the car chase, she confessed to feeling tired or depressed or something that proves Bond's point about revenge, an emotional connection can be established, but in the end she doesn't need him.
    Lisl feels like a more accurate Bond girl for this story; albeit she'd have to be spruced up for the part, more of a femme fatale that tries to bring Bond to Colombo who becomes a hostage for Kristatos. In fact, just making the film "Risico" and omitting a lot of For Your Eyes Only would make the film a lot better in my eyes.
    The actual For Your Eyes only plot would have worked a lot better with Dalton as Bond
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,789
    Bill Conti provided a great score, for some tracks producing them in the John Barry style would have greatly improved them.

    Dalton would have worked like gangbusters as mentioned.

  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,297
    Even though many love her: I feel like Melina is a missed opportunity. The extreme focus on the "Risico" short story takes away any impact her character has and ultimately she should be done with it all after the car chase. By killing Gonzales, she gets her revenge, she's done, and there's also no need for her to be with Bond because she's overcome her own emotional conflict. If Melina had killed Gonzales, after the car chase, she confessed to feeling tired or depressed or something that proves Bond's point about revenge, an emotional connection can be established, but in the end she doesn't need him.
    Lisl feels like a more accurate Bond girl for this story; albeit she'd have to be spruced up for the part, more of a femme fatale that tries to bring Bond to Colombo who becomes a hostage for Kristatos. In fact, just making the film "Risico" and omitting a lot of For Your Eyes Only would make the film a lot better in my eyes.
    The actual For Your Eyes only plot would have worked a lot better with Dalton as Bond

    Quite the "what if"...what if they had not mashed two movies together for FYEO and OP and made four movies based on this material instead of two?

    I wonder if it would have been better if it was Jaws, not Blofeld, killed in the PTS. Wasn't he slated to die in a furnace in TSWLM anyway?
  • Posts: 4,139
    I think the biggest missed opportunity of FYEO is not doing more with the idea of revenge throughout the film. It's one of the biggest problems with the movie - Bond delivers a bastardised line from the original short story and wags his finger at Melina, and yet him and Columbo proceed to kill out of revenge throughout the rest of the movie (he even stops Melina from doing so at the end).

    I think a number of things could have been done. We could have had a QOS type thing where Melina does in fact kill Kristatos at the end but feels empty. Maybe Kristato's plan is motivated out of revenge in some way (his death/downfall would show the consequences and how cyclical revenge can be). Heck, Roger could even have given a slightly sombre look after kicking Louqe's car off the cliff. Just anything rather than the hack job we got.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited January 6 Posts: 16,383
    I guess Charles Dance seems a missed opportunity in retrospect as he barely does anything and went on to become a famous actor and very capable main baddie in his own right in several things. Lisl's role feels far too brief too as she and Bond feel like they forge an actual romantic connection to some extent, moreso than he ever does with Melina for my money.
    Oh and the child in me would have liked to have seen Bond press a button in his Lotus :D I don't think it's fair to the kids to introduce a gadget car and never use it. I'd much rather that than the rubbish ice hockey sequence. Drive a Lotus around an ice rink: there you go- much better little short scene!
  • One other thing that is missing is the Bond-M scene, which is entirely understandable. But For Your Eyes Only is the story where M feels the most human: he's struggling with loss and the morality of revenge, and pressure of leading the service gets to him. I mean Risico the Bond-M scene is less interesting, but still quite good: M's cranky about Bond working with drugs, but also concerned with Bond's safety after the Mexico mission. If they decided to cast Bill Tanner of more of a friendly type, I think the second of two would be a lot more effective.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,383
    One other thing that is missing is the Bond-M scene, which is entirely understandable. But For Your Eyes Only is the story where M feels the most human: he's struggling with loss and the morality of revenge, and pressure of leading the service gets to him.

    That's a good point, that would have been good to see. It might have been interesting to go with that with a temporary replacement for M who wasn't entirely up to the job.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,423
    I agree that revenge runs through the movie but it seems to be inconsistent in how it is used or handled.
    • Bond gets revenge on "Blofeld" in the PTS
    • Melina gets revenge on Gonzalez but wants more
    • Bond gets revenge for Luigi with the kick off the cliff Death of Loque
    • Columbo gets revenge for Lisl at the end of the movie

    We have Bond lecturing Melina on the danger of revenge and yet he himself takes revenge through out the movie. He prevents Melina from taking revenge at the end and as a result she doesn't get her revenge. I think it might have worked if Melina saw how cold or aloof Bond is because of the revenge and how it consumes him.

    Perhaps that would have helped the film tonally and allowed of the theme to be more consistent within the movie.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,789
    The difference to me is Melina seeks revenge. Blofeld seeks revenge, and it's the death of him.

    Bond is on a mission, and acts on the opportunities that come up.

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