"You missed Mister Bond!"..."Did I?"...The Missed Opportunities of Never Say Never Again

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  • edited January 13 Posts: 1,340
    The eggs plot was pointless.

    I mean, in DAF at least the diamonds are useful.
  • edited January 13 Posts: 4,139
    Honestly, as convoluted as the film can be (that’s not a bad thing necessarily, many movies, especially spy or film noirs, have convoluted plots) I think the eggs serve their purpose. They get the plot going and give the characters reasons to do things. McGuffins as story devices can famously be anything and of any importance in themselves (even in the context of the story, it just has to motivate characters/their actions) and like SF once they serve their purpose as story devices we make way for a much deeper and more interesting plot which has been foreshadowed beforehand. Often keeping the focus on these sorts of devices leads to shoehorning them into the finale, which can be lame (ie. The Solex in TMWTGG). Complaining that they’re ‘dropped’ in order to make way for a literal ‘ticking bomb’ finale seems odd to me. I mean, by the end who honestly cares anymore about the eggs? There’s so much more going on.

    mtm wrote: »
    She was originally planned to be the baddie, and I think Herr S has a point that it could have been good for the films at that point to have a female villain.

    It's really a shame that no academic has looked into the different versions of this movie's story. I wonder why Mark Edlitz didn't devote a chapter to it in his "Lost Adventures of James Bond" (but again, he didn't devote any chapter to DAF either).

    The earlier drafts centred around M's death, Blofeld leading a war against the Octopussy Cult and owing a small independent state, and Octopussy herself using Tracy's death to persuade Bond to help her seem to be quite fascinating.

    Regarding the antagonists, it's a shame the story didn't develop their end goal more and Kamal Khan's backstory. Once the war between NATO and the Warsaw Pact started, what would they have done next? I always assumed that Orlov was planning to take control of the USSR while Khan would have returned to his home country (since he was an exiled prince) to become the new ruler of the Afghan proxy regime backed by the Soviet Union; but again, this is never stated in the film and I think it's another missed opportunity considering such backstory would have quite close to Fleming's spirit.

    I’m personally glad we never got M’s death or a Blofeld return, but the idea of Khan maybe running a small independent state and going to war with Octopussy could have been cool, and isn’t a million miles away from what’s there already.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,383
    Yes, the egg is the way into the plot: I’ve never heard anyone complain about it before either. The equivalent with TMWTGG isn’t so much the Solex but the golden bullet: it’s just a clue along the way, no one expects the film to be about an egg.
  • Posts: 4,139
    mtm wrote: »
    Yes, the egg is the way into the plot: I’ve never heard anyone complain about it before either. The equivalent with TMWTGG isn’t so much the Solex but the golden bullet: it’s just a clue along the way, no one expects the film to be about an egg.

    That's a good point. I always thought it was weaved rather well into the story personally (I know some people complain/become a bit confused when Orlov smashes the egg, but it's one of those things that I get the sense people have only brought up long after they've watched the film. Again, there's so much more driving the film at that point).
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited January 13 Posts: 6,297
    Their reactions make total sense when Orlov smashes the egg. Orlov wants domination, but Khan wants money. So he's upset by the destruction of something truly valuable. "I get what I want, and you get the genuine jewelry."

    OP is also in it for the money, but beyond the smuggling, she is not corrupt like Khan, who simply doesn't care about human life.

    If any character lacks development in this film, it's Gobinda.

    OP handles its multiple villains much better than TLD.
  • Posts: 1,340
    Sure, the eggs are a Macguffin but you can use the Macguffin better. They spend too much time with them after all.
  • edited January 13 Posts: 4,139
    Sure, the eggs are a Macguffin but you can use the Macguffin better. They spend too much time with them after all.

    So how would you have preferred the egg to have been used in the film out of curiosity? Or perhaps what alternatives to the story would you have preferred?
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,297
    Sure, the eggs are a Macguffin but you can use the Macguffin better. They spend too much time with them after all.

    I disagree. Unlike, say, the disappearing microchips in AVTAK, the eggs (and eventually, the Romanoff star) recur just enough in the story.

    OP excels with its momentum in Act II (all the train stuff, not incidentally, driven by the jewelry that we recall from the Berlin opening) at a point where most Bond stories start to run out of steam. Tip of the tentacle, indeed.
  • Posts: 1,340
    007HallY wrote: »
    Sure, the eggs are a Macguffin but you can use the Macguffin better. They spend too much time with them after all.

    So how would you have preferred the egg to have been used in the film out of curiosity? Or perhaps what alternatives to the story would you have preferred?

    I don't know. Octopussy, the character, was there. Give her something to do.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,383
    Eggs in a macguffin, yum yum.
  • I don't know. Octopussy, the character, was there. Give her something to do.
    I tend to agree that the character loses all usefulness once it is established that she is not a villain, and therefore has nothing to do from that point on.

    This is why I think not making her the primary villain of the story is a missed opportunity. The character's initial appeal is that she is a mysterious and competent mastermind who gives orders to everyone. From the moment her affiliation is known, she loses all mystery, all competence and ceases to have anything to do.

    I think there was definitely a story to develop around this character that would be grateful to Bond for sparing her father the humiliation of a trial, attempting to recruit him, while having a hatred towards Britain and seeking to take her revenge.

    However, I disagree about the Fabergé eggs, as I think they were a great way into the plot. In a way, they are representative of the problem with Octopussy herself since they lose interest the moment the mystery surrounding Octopussy ceases and the plot begins to revolve around the duo of villains, relegating Octopussy (and the eggs) to the background.
  • Posts: 4,139
    I don't know, I'm not sure what's gained by making Octopussy the villain in this particular film. If anything I find it more interesting that she's a morally ambiguous jewel smuggler who, while competent and relatively powerful, is essentially being played by Khan and Orlov. It's a cool subversion in a sense - we'd expect the villain to be more in her mould and not an exiled prince or respected General (not that it's a twist or anything, just a slight play on the usual Bond tropes).

    Anyway, even if the script had decided to introduce her a bit earlier, even if just through other characters mentioning her, I think the eggs would still be needed to get things going.
  • 007HallY wrote: »
    Sure, the eggs are a Macguffin but you can use the Macguffin better. They spend too much time with them after all.
    So how would you have preferred the egg to have been used in the film out of curiosity? Or perhaps what alternatives to the story would you have preferred?
    Smythe's Nazi gold? The PTS being the Octopussy story? Then Octopussy (she could be something like a criminal banker) lends the rest of her father's gold to Orlov with promise to great return. 009, simply investigating a gold smuggling ring, finds out the Russians (and Smythe's gold) are involved and rushes to report but is killed. Bond identifies the gold was Smythe's so he and MI6 put it on auction, where they expect Smythe's daughter or her colleagues to buy it back. Bond pushes the auction over market value, forcing Khan to pay over the odds. Then Bond follows Khan and gambles, using the gold bar to draw him in. We get quite similar rest of the movie, but instead of it being Octopussy who's smuggling it, Khan and his men are smuggling and Octopussy's women are "security" (making sure that the money is not stolen and such). That way Octopussy is morally grey like Colombo, Draco etc. and not part of the actually villain conspiracy: she just loaned money to the wrong people
  • Then Octopussy (she could be something like a criminal banker) lends the rest of her father's gold to Orlov with promise to great return.
    I like this idea of having Octopussy as a criminal banker. Don't know if it is a missed opportunity per say, but it could be a good idea for a future movie.

    In itself, it's not that far from what Le Chiffre was, but there's definitively something to do with a female antagonist who funds and serves as a banker for other criminals. Casino Royale was more focused on Le Chiffre's downfall, while a future movie could see this banker at the top of her or his game.
  • edited January 13 Posts: 4,139
    007HallY wrote: »
    Sure, the eggs are a Macguffin but you can use the Macguffin better. They spend too much time with them after all.
    So how would you have preferred the egg to have been used in the film out of curiosity? Or perhaps what alternatives to the story would you have preferred?
    Smythe's Nazi gold? The PTS being the Octopussy story? Then Octopussy (she could be something like a criminal banker) lends the rest of her father's gold to Orlov with promise to great return. 009, simply investigating a gold smuggling ring, finds out the Russians (and Smythe's gold) are involved and rushes to report but is killed. Bond identifies the gold was Smythe's so he and MI6 put it on auction, where they expect Smythe's daughter or her colleagues to buy it back. Bond pushes the auction over market value, forcing Khan to pay over the odds. Then Bond follows Khan and gambles, using the gold bar to draw him in. We get quite similar rest of the movie, but instead of it being Octopussy who's smuggling it, Khan and his men are smuggling and Octopussy's women are "security" (making sure that the money is not stolen and such). That way Octopussy is morally grey like Colombo, Draco etc. and not part of the actually villain conspiracy: she just loaned money to the wrong people

    I can just imagine a producer's note on that being something along the lines of 'replace the gold with faberge eggs' just because they're smaller, more tangible objects than a heap of gold, and you can do stuff like have Q hide the microphone in there. Plus you wouldn't have that amazing shot of 009 crashing through the glass and the egg rolling out of his hand. Otherwise I like it.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,629
    Then Octopussy (she could be something like a criminal banker) lends the rest of her father's gold to Orlov with promise to great return.
    I like this idea of having Octopussy as a criminal banker. Don't know if it is a missed opportunity per say, but it could be a good idea for a future movie.

    In itself, it's not that far from what Le Chiffre was, but there's definitively something to do with a female antagonist who funds and serves as a banker for other criminals. Casino Royale was more focused on Le Chiffre's downfall, while a future movie could see this banker at the top of her or his game.

    Apparently, at one point, speaking of criminal bankers, Goldfinger played again by Gert Frobe was considered to appear in OP. In an early Richard Maibaum script. I don’t think the Goldfinger Twin idea was a missed opportunity for this Bond adventure.
  • MaxCasino wrote: »
    Apparently, at one point, speaking of criminal bankers, Goldfinger played again by Gert Frobe was considered to appear in OP. In an early Richard Maibaum script. I don’t think the Goldfinger Twin idea was a missed opportunity for this Bond adventure.

    If I recall correctly, according to "Some Kind Of Hero", the book by Matthew Field and Ajay Chowdhury, Goldfinger was indeed making a cameo in one of George MacDonald Fraser's drafts. And I agree with you that the Goldfinger Twin idea was definitely not a missed opportunity, for this adventure or for DAF.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,383
    007HallY wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    Sure, the eggs are a Macguffin but you can use the Macguffin better. They spend too much time with them after all.
    So how would you have preferred the egg to have been used in the film out of curiosity? Or perhaps what alternatives to the story would you have preferred?
    Smythe's Nazi gold? The PTS being the Octopussy story? Then Octopussy (she could be something like a criminal banker) lends the rest of her father's gold to Orlov with promise to great return. 009, simply investigating a gold smuggling ring, finds out the Russians (and Smythe's gold) are involved and rushes to report but is killed. Bond identifies the gold was Smythe's so he and MI6 put it on auction, where they expect Smythe's daughter or her colleagues to buy it back. Bond pushes the auction over market value, forcing Khan to pay over the odds. Then Bond follows Khan and gambles, using the gold bar to draw him in. We get quite similar rest of the movie, but instead of it being Octopussy who's smuggling it, Khan and his men are smuggling and Octopussy's women are "security" (making sure that the money is not stolen and such). That way Octopussy is morally grey like Colombo, Draco etc. and not part of the actually villain conspiracy: she just loaned money to the wrong people

    I can just imagine a producer's note on that being something along the lines of 'replace the gold with faberge eggs' just because they're smaller, more tangible objects than a heap of gold, and you can do stuff like have Q hide the microphone in there. Plus you wouldn't have that amazing shot of 009 crashing through the glass and the egg rolling out of his hand. Otherwise I like it.

    It does feel quite neat to directly tie Smythe into the macguffin, be that gold or egg; I like it too.
  • 007HallY wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    Sure, the eggs are a Macguffin but you can use the Macguffin better. They spend too much time with them after all.
    So how would you have preferred the egg to have been used in the film out of curiosity? Or perhaps what alternatives to the story would you have preferred?
    Smythe's Nazi gold? The PTS being the Octopussy story? Then Octopussy (she could be something like a criminal banker) lends the rest of her father's gold to Orlov with promise to great return. 009, simply investigating a gold smuggling ring, finds out the Russians (and Smythe's gold) are involved and rushes to report but is killed. Bond identifies the gold was Smythe's so he and MI6 put it on auction, where they expect Smythe's daughter or her colleagues to buy it back. Bond pushes the auction over market value, forcing Khan to pay over the odds. Then Bond follows Khan and gambles, using the gold bar to draw him in. We get quite similar rest of the movie, but instead of it being Octopussy who's smuggling it, Khan and his men are smuggling and Octopussy's women are "security" (making sure that the money is not stolen and such). That way Octopussy is morally grey like Colombo, Draco etc. and not part of the actually villain conspiracy: she just loaned money to the wrong people

    I can just imagine a producer's note on that being something along the lines of 'replace the gold with faberge eggs' just because they're smaller, more tangible objects than a heap of gold, and you can do stuff like have Q hide the microphone in there. Plus you wouldn't have that amazing shot of 009 crashing through the glass and the egg rolling out of his hand. Otherwise I like it.

    Yeah fair enough, I suppose the eggs themselves aren't an issue, just the fact that Smythe should be in with the MacGuffin. I think that's really the film's biggest missed opportunity.

    I mean the fake gold bar sold at the auction could have the Q stuff in it, but then the fake and real complexity arises again, something I completely missed out on my story summary. Nevertheless, having Smythe's more direct involvement in the plot does make the MacGuffin work better as its importance is felt through one of the characters, who owns it.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited January 13 Posts: 6,297
    I suppose Smythe could have stolen the egg originally, which would also tie him pleasingly to Russia, moreso than gold. And Faberge eggs do get bid on, unlike gold, and I'd hate to lose that Fleming touch.

    Moore didn't really do personal missions, though, except for a moment here or there.

    It's all about timing.

    Had OP been written after Die Hard just a few years later, and had OP retained more or less the same plot, I could see the personal Smythe angle being dialed way up. I easily could see this as a Dalton film, although you'd lose the Adams/Moore chemistry.

    On balance, I'm glad we got what we did.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,383
    echo wrote: »
    I suppose Smythe could have stolen the egg originally, which would also tie him pleasingly to Russia, moreso than gold. And Faberge eggs do get bid on, unlike gold, and I'd hate to lose that Fleming touch.

    Moore didn't really do personal missions, though, except for a moment here or there.

    It's quite interesting that they touched on the Smythe plot but left the Oberhauser personal connection to Bond well alone (for Spectre to do many years later). I guess it's an extra complication the film doesn't need, but I think it would have suited Roger's Bond- when we see him sensitive about Tracy etc. it certainly feels he could have gone there successfully.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,789
    I like eggs. And the egg jokes in OP played well.

  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,629
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    Apparently, at one point, speaking of criminal bankers, Goldfinger played again by Gert Frobe was considered to appear in OP. In an early Richard Maibaum script. I don’t think the Goldfinger Twin idea was a missed opportunity for this Bond adventure.

    If I recall correctly, according to "Some Kind Of Hero", the book by Matthew Field and Ajay Chowdhury, Goldfinger was indeed making a cameo in one of George MacDonald Fraser's drafts. And I agree with you that the Goldfinger Twin idea was definitely not a missed opportunity, for this adventure or for DAF.

    My mistake.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,426
    I think this movie was tailor made for Roger. There is enough fun mixed in with the serious. Who doesn't love that one shot of the poor Russian who comes to check on Orlov.

    Reflecting on these posts I do think the missed opportunity was Octopussy. She is mysterious and exotic. We don't meet her until well into the movie. They keep her face from us so prolong the mystery. Then....she becomes nothing or at least not a driver of the plot and yet the movie is named after her. I think having her be on the side of the devil a little longer might have been a good idea to give her more to do. She's set up as a smart and ruthless woman and yet Kamal and Orlov seemed to have her snowed.

    All that being said I am not sure the Adams could have played it as a heavy. I would think they would need an actress with more villainy in her. Like Barbara Carrera perhaps? LOL! I kid but they would possibly need another actress in the role of Octopussy.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,383
    thedove wrote: »
    I think this movie was tailor made for Roger. There is enough fun mixed in with the serious. Who doesn't love that one shot of the poor Russian who comes to check on Orlov.

    Reflecting on these posts I do think the missed opportunity was Octopussy. She is mysterious and exotic. We don't meet her until well into the movie. They keep her face from us so prolong the mystery. Then....she becomes nothing or at least not a driver of the plot and yet the movie is named after her.

    That’s a really good point, I hadn’t really noticed that. There’s so much emphasis placed on her and yet you’re right, she doesn’t actually have all that much importance.
    It might have been nice if she were really central to the whole thing, holding the real power, with Kamal and Bond on either side competing for her favour and trying to get her to be on their side. A bit more of a mysterious figure, perhaps an exotic crime boss who also carries out philanthropic work: neither good nor bad.
  • thedove wrote: »
    All that being said I am not sure the Adams could have played it as a heavy. I would think they would need an actress with more villainy in her. Like Barbara Carrera perhaps? LOL! I kid but they would possibly need another actress in the role of Octopussy.
    Carrera was apparently approached for the role but turned it down in order to appear in NSNA. In an alternate reality, where Connery didn't come back and where McClory's attempts to produce his own Bond failed, Octopussy could have been James Brolin's debut as Bond, with him facing Barbara Carrera as Octopussy. Persis Khambatta was also apparently considered for the part and could have been a good choice in my opinion.

    An actress who wasn't considered but who could have been a great Octopussy, if the character was the main villain of the movie, would have been Charlotte Rampling.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,383
    I think Faye Dunaway was looked at too- if they'd made Octopussy actually central to the film she would have been fantastic. But Broccoli didn't believe in paying for stars.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,297
    Adams had such a natural empathy in TMWTGG and OP...it's hard to imagine her playing the villain. Maybe.
  • edited January 15 Posts: 4,139
    I think with a Charlotte Rampling or a Faye Dunaway we would have potentially gotten a much colder version of Octopussy. Adam's version of the character seems to genuinely care about the girls on her island while still projecting that sense of toughness. She and Moore also have very strong chemistry onscreen too, and I feel that's something else that wouldn't have come through as brightly with an alternative actress. I wouldn't want to lose any of that by making OP the villain (although I do agree that she could have been introduced a bit earlier as a character/those expectations could have been played around with a bit).
  • Posts: 15,116
    007HallY wrote: »
    I don't know, I'm not sure what's gained by making Octopussy the villain in this particular film. If anything I find it more interesting that she's a morally ambiguous jewel smuggler who, while competent and relatively powerful, is essentially being played by Khan and Orlov. It's a cool subversion in a sense - we'd expect the villain to be more in her mould and not an exiled prince or respected General (not that it's a twist or anything, just a slight play on the usual Bond tropes).

    Anyway, even if the script had decided to introduce her a bit earlier, even if just through other characters mentioning her, I think the eggs would still be needed to get things going.

    I'm baffled to see anybody thinking the eggs are wrong. For me it's like complaining the Maltese Falcon doesn't really lead anywhere in a novel that has its name as its title.

    In a way, that Octopussy is revealed as one of the good guys is a sort of plot twist. Up until a certain point you'd be lead to believe she is at least could be the main antagonist, or at least an important one.
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