"You missed Mister Bond!"..."Did I?"...The Missed Opportunities of Never Say Never Again

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Comments

  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    Posts: 3,789
    mtm wrote: »
    I do think the way that Bond is drawn into the plot of TMWTGG, with the golden bullet, the threat on his life, him going off duty and investigating in his own time, the bullet turning out to have been sent by Scaramanga's lover, desperate for escape... all of that is lovely and original plotting for a Bond film. It just all falls apart in the second half.
    So yeah, I kind of count the whole movie as a missed opportunity. Keep all of that good stuff and then add a better second half, more in keeping with the idea of Scaramanga being the best assassin in the world. And don't make Bond the baddie this time!

    What it needs is an interesting backstory or a history.
    If they're going to remake it, don't make Bond a celebrity.

    Give the villain a solid, reasonable motivation to kill Bond, not just knowing him elsewhere because he's a famous British Assassin, provide a strong and deep connection.
  • Posts: 2,165
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I do think the way that Bond is drawn into the plot of TMWTGG, with the golden bullet, the threat on his life, him going off duty and investigating in his own time, the bullet turning out to have been sent by Scaramanga's lover, desperate for escape... all of that is lovely and original plotting for a Bond film. It just all falls apart in the second half.
    So yeah, I kind of count the whole movie as a missed opportunity. Keep all of that good stuff and then add a better second half, more in keeping with the idea of Scaramanga being the best assassin in the world. And don't make Bond the baddie this time!

    What it needs is an interesting backstory or a history.
    If they're going to remake it, don't make Bond a celebrity.

    Give the villain a solid, reasonable motivation to kill Bond, not just knowing him elsewhere because he's a famous British Assassin, provide a strong and deep connection.

    Eh, didn’t they try to do that with Blofeld in Spectre, and look how that turned out.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    Posts: 3,789
    Mallory wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I do think the way that Bond is drawn into the plot of TMWTGG, with the golden bullet, the threat on his life, him going off duty and investigating in his own time, the bullet turning out to have been sent by Scaramanga's lover, desperate for escape... all of that is lovely and original plotting for a Bond film. It just all falls apart in the second half.
    So yeah, I kind of count the whole movie as a missed opportunity. Keep all of that good stuff and then add a better second half, more in keeping with the idea of Scaramanga being the best assassin in the world. And don't make Bond the baddie this time!

    What it needs is an interesting backstory or a history.
    If they're going to remake it, don't make Bond a celebrity.

    Give the villain a solid, reasonable motivation to kill Bond, not just knowing him elsewhere because he's a famous British Assassin, provide a strong and deep connection.

    Eh, didn’t they try to do that with Blofeld in Spectre, and look how that turned out.

    That's more of a familiar connection, what connection I'm talking about was like that in FRWL, with how SPECTRE planned a set up against Bond, because:
    A.) He killed Dr. No, SPECTRE wants revenge
    B.) More believable for them to do that, since they're a part of Bond's world (Iron Curtain and Military Intelligence).
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited August 2023 Posts: 16,411
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I do think the way that Bond is drawn into the plot of TMWTGG, with the golden bullet, the threat on his life, him going off duty and investigating in his own time, the bullet turning out to have been sent by Scaramanga's lover, desperate for escape... all of that is lovely and original plotting for a Bond film. It just all falls apart in the second half.
    So yeah, I kind of count the whole movie as a missed opportunity. Keep all of that good stuff and then add a better second half, more in keeping with the idea of Scaramanga being the best assassin in the world. And don't make Bond the baddie this time!

    What it needs is an interesting backstory or a history.
    If they're going to remake it, don't make Bond a celebrity.

    Give the villain a solid, reasonable motivation to kill Bond, not just knowing him elsewhere because he's a famous British Assassin, provide a strong and deep connection.

    I don't dislike that, but I also don't mind him being known as the best British assassin by Scaramanga; I guess it's not impossible he may know. After all, in TLD, MI6 have a list of the best KGB assassins and that doesn't seem too far fetched in that film. Gregory Beam knows Bond by sight in QoS too, and by NTTD we have Logan Ash fanboying over him.
    Perhaps what would have helped is Andrea telling us she went through Scaramanga's files or something to find Bond.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    Posts: 3,789
    mtm wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I do think the way that Bond is drawn into the plot of TMWTGG, with the golden bullet, the threat on his life, him going off duty and investigating in his own time, the bullet turning out to have been sent by Scaramanga's lover, desperate for escape... all of that is lovely and original plotting for a Bond film. It just all falls apart in the second half.
    So yeah, I kind of count the whole movie as a missed opportunity. Keep all of that good stuff and then add a better second half, more in keeping with the idea of Scaramanga being the best assassin in the world. And don't make Bond the baddie this time!

    What it needs is an interesting backstory or a history.
    If they're going to remake it, don't make Bond a celebrity.

    Give the villain a solid, reasonable motivation to kill Bond, not just knowing him elsewhere because he's a famous British Assassin, provide a strong and deep connection.

    I don't dislike that, but I also don't mind him being known as the best British assassin by Scaramanga; I guess it's not impossible he may know. After all, in TLD, MI6 have a list of the best KGB assassins and that doesn't seem too far fetched in that film. Gregory Beam knows Bond by sight in QoS too, and by NTTD we have Logan Ash fanboying over him.
    Perhaps what would have helped is Andrea telling us she went through Scaramanga's files or something to find Bond.

    Again, in those examples, there's a deep connection and all in a same circle:

    MI6 had the list of the KGB agents (Intelligence to Intelligence).
    Logan Ash was close to Felix Leiter and was also an agent, so that's not surprising.
    And Gregory Beam was also in the Intelligence Unit.

    But Scaramanga, Tiffany Case, they're out of the circle, far from Bond's world, so knowing him that well (and personally) again, for me, was a bit out of depth.
  • Posts: 4,161
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    thedove wrote: »
    The Solex and the whole energy crisis does date the film terribly. Especially since we are in the same spot now with renewables. I guess they chose a current day headline and it bit them.

    It really didn't need the solex plot, however it gave Scaramanga the golden gun. Though it's a cliche I think.

    There are not many Bond films where I would ask for a remake, but Golden Gun is one. There is a better film in there somewhere. The rush to cash in on LALD I think hurt the film and the extra year likely would have done wonders for the film and the script.

    I think the book had an interesting plot that I wished the film just adapted instead.
    More believable and more realistic than what we've got in the film.

    So, if they're going to remake the film, just make it more closer to the book's plot instead.

    I do find it funny how in the film even Scaramanga admits he has no idea how the Solex actually works. He seems more interested in using it for his laser gun thingy (which isn't even gold.... how he can he truly be 'the man with the golden gun' now? So stupid...). It's a pretty lame scheme really.

    I think the biggest missed opportunities with TMWTGG were a) them supposedly sidelining a lot of stuff during the script stage that made Scaramanga out to be more Bond's equal, and b) in place of this not involving an actual assassination or something during the climax, which at least would have more tension.

    Probably a controversial opinion, but even the plot of Scaramanga's plan for assassinating Bond wasn't that utilized and written well.

    I mean, what's the reason why he'd liked to assassinate Bond?
    From what he'd said, Scaramanga knew Bond was one of the best assassins in the world, killing him would've been one of Scaramanga's achievement, as he'd said: "Battle of the titans".

    Like where and how did Scaramanga knew Bond exactly? What's his motivation for wanting to kill Bond? Why he'd liked to kill James Bond?

    And it's pretty absurd because Scaramanga's assassination was personally aimed at Bond only (even specifically sending a bullet with 007 engraved on it), how did these people (Scaramanga and Andrea) knew Bond/007?

    So, one thing that went to my mind was is Bond really that popular? That celebrity status became the concept of the film, it's no different to Tiffany Case reading Peter Frank's card in Diamonds Are Forever and told: "You've just killed James Bond!"

    It's one of the reasons why I didn't liked that film, unlike in the book, Scaramanga was just an ordinary Assassin (gangster) who protects his businesses, and he killed a some British Agents or any law enforcers whom he would suspect of putting a cease into what his doing, so when Bond was sent there, it's just an ordinary mission (not personal unlike in the film), Scaramanga didn't know Bond, nor he had a knowledge of who he was, but at the same time, making Scaramanga more of Bond's evil reflection.

    I think that assassination plot would've been a lot more clear and plausible had Maibaum put a background or history between Bond and Scaramanga (of how did he knew him).


    I would say that despite how tongue in cheek the early 70s films handle Bond's reputation/notoriety (that "You've just killed James Bond!" element you pointed out in DAF and TMWTGG), I do think they could have done something with it. In the past they had FRWL in which SPECTRE (or the Russians if you go from the novel) know who Bond is and want to assassinate him. Within that very small and dangerous world it makes sense that a man like Bond is somewhat known by some of his enemies. I agree, there certainly could have been more of a backstory between Bond and Scaramanga, even if it was simply leaning into the fact that Scaramanga had previously killed a fellow 00. But I do think a 'battle of the titans' thing between Bond and an obsessed villain like Scaramanga could have worked.

    I think the problem with the novel's version of the character is that he comes off as just that, an ordinary gangster. His plan seems to involve liaising with other gangsters and doing nefarious but ultimately mundane things like smuggling prostitutes, raising the price of cane sugar, and setting up casinos... it's a bit lame as well, and I can see why they went with something else for the film.

    Truth be told, I think the decision to cast Lee as a more debonaire version of the character was the correct one. Without the novel's main hook of Bond recovering from his brainwashing and the questions of whether he's still an effective agent (and I'm not entirely sure how well the book handles this anyway) you need a strong villain and a strong scheme to raise the stakes. Like I said, it seems that the 'Bond's equal' aspect of the character was slowly diluted with each draft of the script, which is a shame. I think the closest and best adaptation of a Scaramanga type character actually came in the form of Silva from SF. Interestingly in that film they leaned much more into how that character was a sort of warped mirror image of Bond, and the film is all the more interesting for it.

    In FRWL, it's pretty reasonable because both Bond and his enemies were all in one circle (Intelligence) with the deep connections like the killing of Dr. No, and doing their research on Bond, they're this organization whose member was killed by Bond, there's a deep connection in there, Bond and SPECTRE are just in the same world.

    But in something like DAF and TMWTGG, those for me are pretty far already, they're not in the Intelligence, with far connections, they're criminals (smugglers, assassins), they're out and far from Bond's world, so for them to know Bond was really out of depth, at least for me.

    Sure, Scaramanga killed a fellow 00 (Fairbanks?) But not as personal as Bond, Scaramanga killed Fairbanks because of the Solex Agitator, but Scaramanga's intention for killing Bond was mostly personal, he knew the man pretty well.

    I suppose one can argue Bond and a villain like Scaramanga (at least in the film) would travel in similar circles. I actually think Bond having a reputation works better in TMWTGG than it does in DAF (as you yourself said, why would Tiffany Case automatically know who Bond is?) There's also a sense in TMWTGG that Bond's reputation is by name predominantly, to the point where he feels he can convincingly impersonate Scaramanga without fear of being caught.

    The whole killing of Fairbanks is such a weird and underused plot point in that film. We only learn of it through dialogue, and Bond himself doesn't seem to have much feeling towards it. When I was young and first watched the film it actually confused me as I kind of naturally assumed the gangster in the PTS was 002 (which to me even then made no sense, and it took another viewing later to clarify). That's a missed opportunity too I'd say. Not only would Scaramanga be more likely to know who Bond and the 00 section is through this connection, but actually seeing a fellow 00 die at Scaramanga's hand would help bring the story more full circle and establish how dangerous Scaramanga is in the sense he's able to kill a highly trained agent (and not just some lower grade hoodlum). A stronger sense of Bond or even M feeling... well, something at the news of this fellow agent's death, or at least a sense of how it's impacted the security of the 00 section would have helped.

    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    That's the thing I liked in the book, Scaramanga had no knowledge of Bond, they're both strangers to each other, no personal connections.

    I actually liked the concept regarding the Solex Agitator (it's a pretty interesting plot that's somehow was mishandled), had the film just focused on that, TMWTGG would be a decent film (although the plot is the least of my issues with the film, there are a lot more problematic elements in that film which makes me still disliked it).

    It is indeed handled strangely. I think it's always disappointing when the villain of the film seems to have little interest in the thing he's stolen or is attempting to use.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited August 2023 Posts: 16,411
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I do think the way that Bond is drawn into the plot of TMWTGG, with the golden bullet, the threat on his life, him going off duty and investigating in his own time, the bullet turning out to have been sent by Scaramanga's lover, desperate for escape... all of that is lovely and original plotting for a Bond film. It just all falls apart in the second half.
    So yeah, I kind of count the whole movie as a missed opportunity. Keep all of that good stuff and then add a better second half, more in keeping with the idea of Scaramanga being the best assassin in the world. And don't make Bond the baddie this time!

    What it needs is an interesting backstory or a history.
    If they're going to remake it, don't make Bond a celebrity.

    Give the villain a solid, reasonable motivation to kill Bond, not just knowing him elsewhere because he's a famous British Assassin, provide a strong and deep connection.

    I don't dislike that, but I also don't mind him being known as the best British assassin by Scaramanga; I guess it's not impossible he may know. After all, in TLD, MI6 have a list of the best KGB assassins and that doesn't seem too far fetched in that film. Gregory Beam knows Bond by sight in QoS too, and by NTTD we have Logan Ash fanboying over him.
    Perhaps what would have helped is Andrea telling us she went through Scaramanga's files or something to find Bond.

    Again, in those examples, there's a deep connection and all in a same circle:

    MI6 had the list of the KGB agents (Intelligence to Intelligence).
    Logan Ash was close to Felix Leiter and was also an agent, so that's not surprising.
    And Gregory Beam was also in the Intelligence Unit.

    But Scaramanga, Tiffany Case, they're out of the circle, far from Bond's world, so knowing him that well (and personally) again, for me, was a bit out of depth.

    Scaramanga isn't out of his circle: he's ex-KGB and is an international assassin.

    Tiffany, yes: but we're not talking about her.
    007HallY wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    thedove wrote: »
    The Solex and the whole energy crisis does date the film terribly. Especially since we are in the same spot now with renewables. I guess they chose a current day headline and it bit them.

    It really didn't need the solex plot, however it gave Scaramanga the golden gun. Though it's a cliche I think.

    There are not many Bond films where I would ask for a remake, but Golden Gun is one. There is a better film in there somewhere. The rush to cash in on LALD I think hurt the film and the extra year likely would have done wonders for the film and the script.

    I think the book had an interesting plot that I wished the film just adapted instead.
    More believable and more realistic than what we've got in the film.

    So, if they're going to remake the film, just make it more closer to the book's plot instead.

    I do find it funny how in the film even Scaramanga admits he has no idea how the Solex actually works. He seems more interested in using it for his laser gun thingy (which isn't even gold.... how he can he truly be 'the man with the golden gun' now? So stupid...). It's a pretty lame scheme really.

    I think the biggest missed opportunities with TMWTGG were a) them supposedly sidelining a lot of stuff during the script stage that made Scaramanga out to be more Bond's equal, and b) in place of this not involving an actual assassination or something during the climax, which at least would have more tension.

    Probably a controversial opinion, but even the plot of Scaramanga's plan for assassinating Bond wasn't that utilized and written well.

    I mean, what's the reason why he'd liked to assassinate Bond?
    From what he'd said, Scaramanga knew Bond was one of the best assassins in the world, killing him would've been one of Scaramanga's achievement, as he'd said: "Battle of the titans".

    Like where and how did Scaramanga knew Bond exactly? What's his motivation for wanting to kill Bond? Why he'd liked to kill James Bond?

    And it's pretty absurd because Scaramanga's assassination was personally aimed at Bond only (even specifically sending a bullet with 007 engraved on it), how did these people (Scaramanga and Andrea) knew Bond/007?

    So, one thing that went to my mind was is Bond really that popular? That celebrity status became the concept of the film, it's no different to Tiffany Case reading Peter Frank's card in Diamonds Are Forever and told: "You've just killed James Bond!"

    It's one of the reasons why I didn't liked that film, unlike in the book, Scaramanga was just an ordinary Assassin (gangster) who protects his businesses, and he killed a some British Agents or any law enforcers whom he would suspect of putting a cease into what his doing, so when Bond was sent there, it's just an ordinary mission (not personal unlike in the film), Scaramanga didn't know Bond, nor he had a knowledge of who he was, but at the same time, making Scaramanga more of Bond's evil reflection.

    I think that assassination plot would've been a lot more clear and plausible had Maibaum put a background or history between Bond and Scaramanga (of how did he knew him).


    I would say that despite how tongue in cheek the early 70s films handle Bond's reputation/notoriety (that "You've just killed James Bond!" element you pointed out in DAF and TMWTGG), I do think they could have done something with it. In the past they had FRWL in which SPECTRE (or the Russians if you go from the novel) know who Bond is and want to assassinate him. Within that very small and dangerous world it makes sense that a man like Bond is somewhat known by some of his enemies. I agree, there certainly could have been more of a backstory between Bond and Scaramanga, even if it was simply leaning into the fact that Scaramanga had previously killed a fellow 00. But I do think a 'battle of the titans' thing between Bond and an obsessed villain like Scaramanga could have worked.

    I think the problem with the novel's version of the character is that he comes off as just that, an ordinary gangster. His plan seems to involve liaising with other gangsters and doing nefarious but ultimately mundane things like smuggling prostitutes, raising the price of cane sugar, and setting up casinos... it's a bit lame as well, and I can see why they went with something else for the film.

    Truth be told, I think the decision to cast Lee as a more debonaire version of the character was the correct one. Without the novel's main hook of Bond recovering from his brainwashing and the questions of whether he's still an effective agent (and I'm not entirely sure how well the book handles this anyway) you need a strong villain and a strong scheme to raise the stakes. Like I said, it seems that the 'Bond's equal' aspect of the character was slowly diluted with each draft of the script, which is a shame. I think the closest and best adaptation of a Scaramanga type character actually came in the form of Silva from SF. Interestingly in that film they leaned much more into how that character was a sort of warped mirror image of Bond, and the film is all the more interesting for it.

    In FRWL, it's pretty reasonable because both Bond and his enemies were all in one circle (Intelligence) with the deep connections like the killing of Dr. No, and doing their research on Bond, they're this organization whose member was killed by Bond, there's a deep connection in there, Bond and SPECTRE are just in the same world.

    But in something like DAF and TMWTGG, those for me are pretty far already, they're not in the Intelligence, with far connections, they're criminals (smugglers, assassins), they're out and far from Bond's world, so for them to know Bond was really out of depth, at least for me.

    Sure, Scaramanga killed a fellow 00 (Fairbanks?) But not as personal as Bond, Scaramanga killed Fairbanks because of the Solex Agitator, but Scaramanga's intention for killing Bond was mostly personal, he knew the man pretty well.

    I suppose one can argue Bond and a villain like Scaramanga (at least in the film) would travel in similar circles. I actually think Bond having a reputation works better in TMWTGG than it does in DAF (as you yourself said, why would Tiffany Case automatically know who Bond is?) There's also a sense in TMWTGG that Bond's reputation is by name predominantly, to the point where he feels he can convincingly impersonate Scaramanga without fear of being caught.

    The whole killing of Fairbanks is such a weird and underused plot point in that film. We only learn of it through dialogue, and Bond himself doesn't seem to have much feeling towards it. When I was young and first watched the film it actually confused me as I kind of naturally assumed the gangster in the PTS was 002 (which to me even then made no sense, and it took another viewing later to clarify). That's a missed opportunity too I'd say. Not only would Scaramanga be more likely to know who Bond and the 00 section is through this connection, but actually seeing a fellow 00 die at Scaramanga's hand would help bring the story more full circle and establish how dangerous Scaramanga is in the sense he's able to kill a highly trained agent (and not just some lower grade hoodlum). A stronger sense of Bond or even M feeling... well, something at the news of this fellow agent's death, or at least a sense of how it's impacted the security of the 00 section would have helped.

    Yes, that's neater; although I guess the killing of a fellow 00 is a conceit rather over-used in the films.
    007HallY wrote: »
    It is indeed handled strangely. I think it's always disappointing when the villain of the film seems to have little interest in the thing he's stolen or is attempting to use.

    Indeed, and as I've said a few times before, he's not actually doing anything wrong! :)
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited August 2023 Posts: 3,789
    But again, there's still that question, how did Scaramanga knew Bond? Why would he want to kill Bond? What's his motivation?

    I couldn't find another answer other than the possibility of Fairbanks telling Scaramanga about Bond, like what Bond did in Goldfinger when Auric was about to kill him on that laser table when Bond pointed out 008 replacing him.

    Maybe that's what Fairbanks did? He'd pointed Bond to Scaramanga ("007 would replaced me if you kill me!"), hence, there's the 007 codename engraved on the bullet? Then Scaramanga went on to do a research about Bond, that's why he knew his name?

    But again, what's his intention for wanting to kill Bond? (Did he expected Bond to handle the Solex Agitator mission that Fairbanks failed to accomplish?)

    But again, if looking on the events of the film, Scaramanga just wants to have Bond killed as his achievement because he knew Bond as a well skilled assassin just like him.
  • edited August 2023 Posts: 4,161
    mtm wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I do think the way that Bond is drawn into the plot of TMWTGG, with the golden bullet, the threat on his life, him going off duty and investigating in his own time, the bullet turning out to have been sent by Scaramanga's lover, desperate for escape... all of that is lovely and original plotting for a Bond film. It just all falls apart in the second half.
    So yeah, I kind of count the whole movie as a missed opportunity. Keep all of that good stuff and then add a better second half, more in keeping with the idea of Scaramanga being the best assassin in the world. And don't make Bond the baddie this time!

    What it needs is an interesting backstory or a history.
    If they're going to remake it, don't make Bond a celebrity.

    Give the villain a solid, reasonable motivation to kill Bond, not just knowing him elsewhere because he's a famous British Assassin, provide a strong and deep connection.

    I don't dislike that, but I also don't mind him being known as the best British assassin by Scaramanga; I guess it's not impossible he may know. After all, in TLD, MI6 have a list of the best KGB assassins and that doesn't seem too far fetched in that film. Gregory Beam knows Bond by sight in QoS too, and by NTTD we have Logan Ash fanboying over him.
    Perhaps what would have helped is Andrea telling us she went through Scaramanga's files or something to find Bond.

    Again, in those examples, there's a deep connection and all in a same circle:

    MI6 had the list of the KGB agents (Intelligence to Intelligence).
    Logan Ash was close to Felix Leiter and was also an agent, so that's not surprising.
    And Gregory Beam was also in the Intelligence Unit.

    But Scaramanga, Tiffany Case, they're out of the circle, far from Bond's world, so knowing him that well (and personally) again, for me, was a bit out of depth.

    Scaramanga isn't out of his circle: he's ex-KGB and is an international assassin.

    Tiffany, yes: but we're not talking about her.
    007HallY wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    thedove wrote: »
    The Solex and the whole energy crisis does date the film terribly. Especially since we are in the same spot now with renewables. I guess they chose a current day headline and it bit them.

    It really didn't need the solex plot, however it gave Scaramanga the golden gun. Though it's a cliche I think.

    There are not many Bond films where I would ask for a remake, but Golden Gun is one. There is a better film in there somewhere. The rush to cash in on LALD I think hurt the film and the extra year likely would have done wonders for the film and the script.

    I think the book had an interesting plot that I wished the film just adapted instead.
    More believable and more realistic than what we've got in the film.

    So, if they're going to remake the film, just make it more closer to the book's plot instead.

    I do find it funny how in the film even Scaramanga admits he has no idea how the Solex actually works. He seems more interested in using it for his laser gun thingy (which isn't even gold.... how he can he truly be 'the man with the golden gun' now? So stupid...). It's a pretty lame scheme really.

    I think the biggest missed opportunities with TMWTGG were a) them supposedly sidelining a lot of stuff during the script stage that made Scaramanga out to be more Bond's equal, and b) in place of this not involving an actual assassination or something during the climax, which at least would have more tension.

    Probably a controversial opinion, but even the plot of Scaramanga's plan for assassinating Bond wasn't that utilized and written well.

    I mean, what's the reason why he'd liked to assassinate Bond?
    From what he'd said, Scaramanga knew Bond was one of the best assassins in the world, killing him would've been one of Scaramanga's achievement, as he'd said: "Battle of the titans".

    Like where and how did Scaramanga knew Bond exactly? What's his motivation for wanting to kill Bond? Why he'd liked to kill James Bond?

    And it's pretty absurd because Scaramanga's assassination was personally aimed at Bond only (even specifically sending a bullet with 007 engraved on it), how did these people (Scaramanga and Andrea) knew Bond/007?

    So, one thing that went to my mind was is Bond really that popular? That celebrity status became the concept of the film, it's no different to Tiffany Case reading Peter Frank's card in Diamonds Are Forever and told: "You've just killed James Bond!"

    It's one of the reasons why I didn't liked that film, unlike in the book, Scaramanga was just an ordinary Assassin (gangster) who protects his businesses, and he killed a some British Agents or any law enforcers whom he would suspect of putting a cease into what his doing, so when Bond was sent there, it's just an ordinary mission (not personal unlike in the film), Scaramanga didn't know Bond, nor he had a knowledge of who he was, but at the same time, making Scaramanga more of Bond's evil reflection.

    I think that assassination plot would've been a lot more clear and plausible had Maibaum put a background or history between Bond and Scaramanga (of how did he knew him).


    I would say that despite how tongue in cheek the early 70s films handle Bond's reputation/notoriety (that "You've just killed James Bond!" element you pointed out in DAF and TMWTGG), I do think they could have done something with it. In the past they had FRWL in which SPECTRE (or the Russians if you go from the novel) know who Bond is and want to assassinate him. Within that very small and dangerous world it makes sense that a man like Bond is somewhat known by some of his enemies. I agree, there certainly could have been more of a backstory between Bond and Scaramanga, even if it was simply leaning into the fact that Scaramanga had previously killed a fellow 00. But I do think a 'battle of the titans' thing between Bond and an obsessed villain like Scaramanga could have worked.

    I think the problem with the novel's version of the character is that he comes off as just that, an ordinary gangster. His plan seems to involve liaising with other gangsters and doing nefarious but ultimately mundane things like smuggling prostitutes, raising the price of cane sugar, and setting up casinos... it's a bit lame as well, and I can see why they went with something else for the film.

    Truth be told, I think the decision to cast Lee as a more debonaire version of the character was the correct one. Without the novel's main hook of Bond recovering from his brainwashing and the questions of whether he's still an effective agent (and I'm not entirely sure how well the book handles this anyway) you need a strong villain and a strong scheme to raise the stakes. Like I said, it seems that the 'Bond's equal' aspect of the character was slowly diluted with each draft of the script, which is a shame. I think the closest and best adaptation of a Scaramanga type character actually came in the form of Silva from SF. Interestingly in that film they leaned much more into how that character was a sort of warped mirror image of Bond, and the film is all the more interesting for it.

    In FRWL, it's pretty reasonable because both Bond and his enemies were all in one circle (Intelligence) with the deep connections like the killing of Dr. No, and doing their research on Bond, they're this organization whose member was killed by Bond, there's a deep connection in there, Bond and SPECTRE are just in the same world.

    But in something like DAF and TMWTGG, those for me are pretty far already, they're not in the Intelligence, with far connections, they're criminals (smugglers, assassins), they're out and far from Bond's world, so for them to know Bond was really out of depth, at least for me.

    Sure, Scaramanga killed a fellow 00 (Fairbanks?) But not as personal as Bond, Scaramanga killed Fairbanks because of the Solex Agitator, but Scaramanga's intention for killing Bond was mostly personal, he knew the man pretty well.

    I suppose one can argue Bond and a villain like Scaramanga (at least in the film) would travel in similar circles. I actually think Bond having a reputation works better in TMWTGG than it does in DAF (as you yourself said, why would Tiffany Case automatically know who Bond is?) There's also a sense in TMWTGG that Bond's reputation is by name predominantly, to the point where he feels he can convincingly impersonate Scaramanga without fear of being caught.

    The whole killing of Fairbanks is such a weird and underused plot point in that film. We only learn of it through dialogue, and Bond himself doesn't seem to have much feeling towards it. When I was young and first watched the film it actually confused me as I kind of naturally assumed the gangster in the PTS was 002 (which to me even then made no sense, and it took another viewing later to clarify). That's a missed opportunity too I'd say. Not only would Scaramanga be more likely to know who Bond and the 00 section is through this connection, but actually seeing a fellow 00 die at Scaramanga's hand would help bring the story more full circle and establish how dangerous Scaramanga is in the sense he's able to kill a highly trained agent (and not just some lower grade hoodlum). A stronger sense of Bond or even M feeling... well, something at the news of this fellow agent's death, or at least a sense of how it's impacted the security of the 00 section would have helped.

    Yes, that's neater; although I guess the killing of a fellow 00 is a conceit rather over-used in the films.

    It's a tricky plot point to use I guess. Really there's a limited amount of emotional connection Bond can have to his fallen comrade (we've presumably never seen this character and Bond interact, and Bond is a relatively stoic character about death anyway). The best you can do is convey how much dissaray it brings to the 00 section in general, which isn't something we've necessarily seen from films in the past and again could have been interesting to see in TMWTGG (or indeed a future Bond film if they decide to use this plot point).
    mtm wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    It is indeed handled strangely. I think it's always disappointing when the villain of the film seems to have little interest in the thing he's stolen or is attempting to use.

    Indeed, and as I've said a few times before, he's not actually doing anything wrong! :)

    I suppose he's murdered someone to attain it, but it's not exactly a consequential scheme really, is it? You're right, strictly speaking having the Solex isn't him doing anything 'wrong' per say. Which is a bit of a problem for a Bond film.
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    But again, there's still that question, how did Scaramanga knew Bond? Why would he want to kill Bond? What's his motivation?

    I couldn't find another answer other than the possibility of Fairbanks telling Scaramanga about Bond, like what Bond did in Goldfinger when Auric was about to kill him on that laser table when Bond pointed out 008 replacing him.

    Maybe that's what Fairbanks did? He'd pointed Bond to Scaramanga ("007 would've replaced me if you kill me!"), hence, there's the 007 codename engraved on the bullet? Then Scaramanga went on to do a research about Bond, that's why he knew his name?

    But again, what's his intention for wanting to kill Bond? (Did he expected Bond to handle the Solex Agitator mission that Fairbanks failed to accomplish?)

    Come to think of it, how does Goldfinger in that film know what the 00 section is? I haven't seen the film in ages so I might be wrong, but why would he know Bond's number even if he now knows for sure he's a spy?
  • Agent_Zero_OneAgent_Zero_One Ireland
    Posts: 554
    mtm wrote: »
    I also feel like Roger's Bond should perhaps have moved towards a more genuine love interest: perhaps his last film should have had a more mature woman in it, in the style of Octopussy, who we actually saw him get a bit more believably romantic with and create a bit more of a bond.
    Another tack you could've taken would be playing into the age difference of AVTAK and making it more of a father daughter thing. FYEO honestly plays like this to me for a good portion despite the amore scene and final coda.
  • Posts: 15,122
    mtm wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    I think the biggest missed opportunities with TMWTGG were a) them supposedly sidelining a lot of stuff during the script stage that made Scaramanga out to be more Bond's equal, and b) in place of this not involving an actual assassination or something during the climax, which at least would have more tension.

    Yes, absolutely. I do think that Scaramanga is a missed opportunity as he's a great character in a fairly naff film, and they throw away his whole unique setup i.e. being an assassin, on a dull plot about a mcguffin.
    I wouldn't be upset if they brought him back in a new film.
    007HallY wrote: »
    I think the problem with the novel's version of the character is that he comes off as just that, an ordinary gangster. His plan seems to involve liaising with other gangsters and doing nefarious but ultimately mundane things like smuggling prostitutes, raising the price of cane sugar, and setting up casinos... it's a bit lame as well, and I can see why they went with something else for the film.

    Truth be told, I think the decision to cast Lee as a more debonaire version of the character was the correct one.

    Yes, the film's version is much more suitable to the world of the Bond movies than the book one: it's a good thing they changed him.

    Ludovico wrote: »
    It might come off as controversial as lots of people here want Bond to return to standalone movies, but I think one great missed opportunity was not to give the Brosnan era more continuity AND a recurring adversary. The tenure lacked focus after GE and the series would have benefitted from a new Nemesis. Say make Trevelyan the second in command of the Janus Syndicate (two faces, two people in charge) and have Janus return in TWINE. Because of 006, they know a lot about the inner works of MI6, making them all the more dangerous.

    A Brosnan story arc is a great idea; I could see that working. I think they're rubbish, but the Union books of Raymond Benson kind of show how that could have worked. I think an arc through Brosnan's films would have been good

    I also feel like Roger's Bond should perhaps have moved towards a more genuine love interest: perhaps his last film should have had a more mature woman in it, in the style of Octopussy, who we actually saw him get a bit more believably romantic with and create a bit more of a bond.

    Otherwise I feel like Thunderball is full of missed opportunities, but not least of them is that Fiona should have been the main baddie.

    As much as I love Fiona, I don't think she would have worked as the main baddie: she's better as a femme fatale and a female assassin/henchwoman. Fleming's villains are usually deformed male "monsters" or (less often) sexually neutral/gross women. Distorted father or mother figures. Fiona doesn't fit that mold. Beside you have her the main villain, you take away the cat and mouse game that leads to her death.
  • Posts: 1,993
    So often the original source material is better than the concoctions intended to make the films flashy and relevant. Perhaps because I've never cared for the film version of TMWTGG, I find it difficult to describe the story. In retrospect, the novel's story would have better suited the Craig era rather than the light comedy of the Moore films.



  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited August 2023 Posts: 3,789
    Ludovico wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    I think the biggest missed opportunities with TMWTGG were a) them supposedly sidelining a lot of stuff during the script stage that made Scaramanga out to be more Bond's equal, and b) in place of this not involving an actual assassination or something during the climax, which at least would have more tension.

    Yes, absolutely. I do think that Scaramanga is a missed opportunity as he's a great character in a fairly naff film, and they throw away his whole unique setup i.e. being an assassin, on a dull plot about a mcguffin.
    I wouldn't be upset if they brought him back in a new film.
    007HallY wrote: »
    I think the problem with the novel's version of the character is that he comes off as just that, an ordinary gangster. His plan seems to involve liaising with other gangsters and doing nefarious but ultimately mundane things like smuggling prostitutes, raising the price of cane sugar, and setting up casinos... it's a bit lame as well, and I can see why they went with something else for the film.

    Truth be told, I think the decision to cast Lee as a more debonaire version of the character was the correct one.

    Yes, the film's version is much more suitable to the world of the Bond movies than the book one: it's a good thing they changed him.

    Ludovico wrote: »
    It might come off as controversial as lots of people here want Bond to return to standalone movies, but I think one great missed opportunity was not to give the Brosnan era more continuity AND a recurring adversary. The tenure lacked focus after GE and the series would have benefitted from a new Nemesis. Say make Trevelyan the second in command of the Janus Syndicate (two faces, two people in charge) and have Janus return in TWINE. Because of 006, they know a lot about the inner works of MI6, making them all the more dangerous.

    A Brosnan story arc is a great idea; I could see that working. I think they're rubbish, but the Union books of Raymond Benson kind of show how that could have worked. I think an arc through Brosnan's films would have been good

    I also feel like Roger's Bond should perhaps have moved towards a more genuine love interest: perhaps his last film should have had a more mature woman in it, in the style of Octopussy, who we actually saw him get a bit more believably romantic with and create a bit more of a bond.

    Otherwise I feel like Thunderball is full of missed opportunities, but not least of them is that Fiona should have been the main baddie.

    As much as I love Fiona, I don't think she would have worked as the main baddie: she's better as a femme fatale and a female assassin/henchwoman. Fleming's villains are usually deformed male "monsters" or (less often) sexually neutral/gross women. Distorted father or mother figures. Fiona doesn't fit that mold. Beside you have her the main villain, you take away the cat and mouse game that leads to her death.

    But, we have Elektra in TWINE.
    CrabKey wrote: »
    Perhaps because I've never cared for the film version of TMWTGG, I find it difficult to describe the story. In retrospect, the novel's story would have better suited the Craig era rather than the light comedy of the Moore films.
    Indeed.
    I think the book TMWTGG would've worked today (in this modern time), really.
  • Posts: 15,122
    007HallY wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I do think the way that Bond is drawn into the plot of TMWTGG, with the golden bullet, the threat on his life, him going off duty and investigating in his own time, the bullet turning out to have been sent by Scaramanga's lover, desperate for escape... all of that is lovely and original plotting for a Bond film. It just all falls apart in the second half.
    So yeah, I kind of count the whole movie as a missed opportunity. Keep all of that good stuff and then add a better second half, more in keeping with the idea of Scaramanga being the best assassin in the world. And don't make Bond the baddie this time!

    What it needs is an interesting backstory or a history.
    If they're going to remake it, don't make Bond a celebrity.

    Give the villain a solid, reasonable motivation to kill Bond, not just knowing him elsewhere because he's a famous British Assassin, provide a strong and deep connection.

    I don't dislike that, but I also don't mind him being known as the best British assassin by Scaramanga; I guess it's not impossible he may know. After all, in TLD, MI6 have a list of the best KGB assassins and that doesn't seem too far fetched in that film. Gregory Beam knows Bond by sight in QoS too, and by NTTD we have Logan Ash fanboying over him.
    Perhaps what would have helped is Andrea telling us she went through Scaramanga's files or something to find Bond.

    Again, in those examples, there's a deep connection and all in a same circle:

    MI6 had the list of the KGB agents (Intelligence to Intelligence).
    Logan Ash was close to Felix Leiter and was also an agent, so that's not surprising.
    And Gregory Beam was also in the Intelligence Unit.

    But Scaramanga, Tiffany Case, they're out of the circle, far from Bond's world, so knowing him that well (and personally) again, for me, was a bit out of depth.

    Scaramanga isn't out of his circle: he's ex-KGB and is an international assassin.

    Tiffany, yes: but we're not talking about her.
    007HallY wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    thedove wrote: »
    The Solex and the whole energy crisis does date the film terribly. Especially since we are in the same spot now with renewables. I guess they chose a current day headline and it bit them.

    It really didn't need the solex plot, however it gave Scaramanga the golden gun. Though it's a cliche I think.

    There are not many Bond films where I would ask for a remake, but Golden Gun is one. There is a better film in there somewhere. The rush to cash in on LALD I think hurt the film and the extra year likely would have done wonders for the film and the script.

    I think the book had an interesting plot that I wished the film just adapted instead.
    More believable and more realistic than what we've got in the film.

    So, if they're going to remake the film, just make it more closer to the book's plot instead.

    I do find it funny how in the film even Scaramanga admits he has no idea how the Solex actually works. He seems more interested in using it for his laser gun thingy (which isn't even gold.... how he can he truly be 'the man with the golden gun' now? So stupid...). It's a pretty lame scheme really.

    I think the biggest missed opportunities with TMWTGG were a) them supposedly sidelining a lot of stuff during the script stage that made Scaramanga out to be more Bond's equal, and b) in place of this not involving an actual assassination or something during the climax, which at least would have more tension.

    Probably a controversial opinion, but even the plot of Scaramanga's plan for assassinating Bond wasn't that utilized and written well.

    I mean, what's the reason why he'd liked to assassinate Bond?
    From what he'd said, Scaramanga knew Bond was one of the best assassins in the world, killing him would've been one of Scaramanga's achievement, as he'd said: "Battle of the titans".

    Like where and how did Scaramanga knew Bond exactly? What's his motivation for wanting to kill Bond? Why he'd liked to kill James Bond?

    And it's pretty absurd because Scaramanga's assassination was personally aimed at Bond only (even specifically sending a bullet with 007 engraved on it), how did these people (Scaramanga and Andrea) knew Bond/007?

    So, one thing that went to my mind was is Bond really that popular? That celebrity status became the concept of the film, it's no different to Tiffany Case reading Peter Frank's card in Diamonds Are Forever and told: "You've just killed James Bond!"

    It's one of the reasons why I didn't liked that film, unlike in the book, Scaramanga was just an ordinary Assassin (gangster) who protects his businesses, and he killed a some British Agents or any law enforcers whom he would suspect of putting a cease into what his doing, so when Bond was sent there, it's just an ordinary mission (not personal unlike in the film), Scaramanga didn't know Bond, nor he had a knowledge of who he was, but at the same time, making Scaramanga more of Bond's evil reflection.

    I think that assassination plot would've been a lot more clear and plausible had Maibaum put a background or history between Bond and Scaramanga (of how did he knew him).


    I would say that despite how tongue in cheek the early 70s films handle Bond's reputation/notoriety (that "You've just killed James Bond!" element you pointed out in DAF and TMWTGG), I do think they could have done something with it. In the past they had FRWL in which SPECTRE (or the Russians if you go from the novel) know who Bond is and want to assassinate him. Within that very small and dangerous world it makes sense that a man like Bond is somewhat known by some of his enemies. I agree, there certainly could have been more of a backstory between Bond and Scaramanga, even if it was simply leaning into the fact that Scaramanga had previously killed a fellow 00. But I do think a 'battle of the titans' thing between Bond and an obsessed villain like Scaramanga could have worked.

    I think the problem with the novel's version of the character is that he comes off as just that, an ordinary gangster. His plan seems to involve liaising with other gangsters and doing nefarious but ultimately mundane things like smuggling prostitutes, raising the price of cane sugar, and setting up casinos... it's a bit lame as well, and I can see why they went with something else for the film.

    Truth be told, I think the decision to cast Lee as a more debonaire version of the character was the correct one. Without the novel's main hook of Bond recovering from his brainwashing and the questions of whether he's still an effective agent (and I'm not entirely sure how well the book handles this anyway) you need a strong villain and a strong scheme to raise the stakes. Like I said, it seems that the 'Bond's equal' aspect of the character was slowly diluted with each draft of the script, which is a shame. I think the closest and best adaptation of a Scaramanga type character actually came in the form of Silva from SF. Interestingly in that film they leaned much more into how that character was a sort of warped mirror image of Bond, and the film is all the more interesting for it.

    In FRWL, it's pretty reasonable because both Bond and his enemies were all in one circle (Intelligence) with the deep connections like the killing of Dr. No, and doing their research on Bond, they're this organization whose member was killed by Bond, there's a deep connection in there, Bond and SPECTRE are just in the same world.

    But in something like DAF and TMWTGG, those for me are pretty far already, they're not in the Intelligence, with far connections, they're criminals (smugglers, assassins), they're out and far from Bond's world, so for them to know Bond was really out of depth, at least for me.

    Sure, Scaramanga killed a fellow 00 (Fairbanks?) But not as personal as Bond, Scaramanga killed Fairbanks because of the Solex Agitator, but Scaramanga's intention for killing Bond was mostly personal, he knew the man pretty well.

    I suppose one can argue Bond and a villain like Scaramanga (at least in the film) would travel in similar circles. I actually think Bond having a reputation works better in TMWTGG than it does in DAF (as you yourself said, why would Tiffany Case automatically know who Bond is?) There's also a sense in TMWTGG that Bond's reputation is by name predominantly, to the point where he feels he can convincingly impersonate Scaramanga without fear of being caught.

    The whole killing of Fairbanks is such a weird and underused plot point in that film. We only learn of it through dialogue, and Bond himself doesn't seem to have much feeling towards it. When I was young and first watched the film it actually confused me as I kind of naturally assumed the gangster in the PTS was 002 (which to me even then made no sense, and it took another viewing later to clarify). That's a missed opportunity too I'd say. Not only would Scaramanga be more likely to know who Bond and the 00 section is through this connection, but actually seeing a fellow 00 die at Scaramanga's hand would help bring the story more full circle and establish how dangerous Scaramanga is in the sense he's able to kill a highly trained agent (and not just some lower grade hoodlum). A stronger sense of Bond or even M feeling... well, something at the news of this fellow agent's death, or at least a sense of how it's impacted the security of the 00 section would have helped.

    Yes, that's neater; although I guess the killing of a fellow 00 is a conceit rather over-used in the films.

    It's a tricky plot point to use I guess. Really there's a limited amount of emotional connection Bond can have to his fallen comrade (we've presumably never seen this character and Bond interact, and Bond is a relatively stoic character about death anyway). The best you can do is convey how much dissaray it brings to the 00 section in general, which isn't something we've necessarily seen from films in the past and again could have been interesting to see in TMWTGG (or indeed a future Bond film if they decide to use this plot point).
    mtm wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    It is indeed handled strangely. I think it's always disappointing when the villain of the film seems to have little interest in the thing he's stolen or is attempting to use.

    Indeed, and as I've said a few times before, he's not actually doing anything wrong! :)

    I suppose he's murdered someone to attain it, but it's not exactly a consequential scheme really, is it? You're right, strictly speaking having the Solex isn't him doing anything 'wrong' per say. Which is a bit of a problem for a Bond film.
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    But again, there's still that question, how did Scaramanga knew Bond? Why would he want to kill Bond? What's his motivation?

    I couldn't find another answer other than the possibility of Fairbanks telling Scaramanga about Bond, like what Bond did in Goldfinger when Auric was about to kill him on that laser table when Bond pointed out 008 replacing him.

    Maybe that's what Fairbanks did? He'd pointed Bond to Scaramanga ("007 would've replaced me if you kill me!"), hence, there's the 007 codename engraved on the bullet? Then Scaramanga went on to do a research about Bond, that's why he knew his name?

    But again, what's his intention for wanting to kill Bond? (Did he expected Bond to handle the Solex Agitator mission that Fairbanks failed to accomplish?)

    Come to think of it, how does Goldfinger in that film know what the 00 section is? I haven't seen the film in ages so I might be wrong, but why would he know Bond's number even if he now knows for sure he's a spy?

    Goldfinger was told by a Chinese agent if I'm not mistaken. Bond's opposite number so to speak.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited August 2023 Posts: 16,411
    007HallY wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I do think the way that Bond is drawn into the plot of TMWTGG, with the golden bullet, the threat on his life, him going off duty and investigating in his own time, the bullet turning out to have been sent by Scaramanga's lover, desperate for escape... all of that is lovely and original plotting for a Bond film. It just all falls apart in the second half.
    So yeah, I kind of count the whole movie as a missed opportunity. Keep all of that good stuff and then add a better second half, more in keeping with the idea of Scaramanga being the best assassin in the world. And don't make Bond the baddie this time!

    What it needs is an interesting backstory or a history.
    If they're going to remake it, don't make Bond a celebrity.

    Give the villain a solid, reasonable motivation to kill Bond, not just knowing him elsewhere because he's a famous British Assassin, provide a strong and deep connection.

    I don't dislike that, but I also don't mind him being known as the best British assassin by Scaramanga; I guess it's not impossible he may know. After all, in TLD, MI6 have a list of the best KGB assassins and that doesn't seem too far fetched in that film. Gregory Beam knows Bond by sight in QoS too, and by NTTD we have Logan Ash fanboying over him.
    Perhaps what would have helped is Andrea telling us she went through Scaramanga's files or something to find Bond.

    Again, in those examples, there's a deep connection and all in a same circle:

    MI6 had the list of the KGB agents (Intelligence to Intelligence).
    Logan Ash was close to Felix Leiter and was also an agent, so that's not surprising.
    And Gregory Beam was also in the Intelligence Unit.

    But Scaramanga, Tiffany Case, they're out of the circle, far from Bond's world, so knowing him that well (and personally) again, for me, was a bit out of depth.

    Scaramanga isn't out of his circle: he's ex-KGB and is an international assassin.

    Tiffany, yes: but we're not talking about her.
    007HallY wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    thedove wrote: »
    The Solex and the whole energy crisis does date the film terribly. Especially since we are in the same spot now with renewables. I guess they chose a current day headline and it bit them.

    It really didn't need the solex plot, however it gave Scaramanga the golden gun. Though it's a cliche I think.

    There are not many Bond films where I would ask for a remake, but Golden Gun is one. There is a better film in there somewhere. The rush to cash in on LALD I think hurt the film and the extra year likely would have done wonders for the film and the script.

    I think the book had an interesting plot that I wished the film just adapted instead.
    More believable and more realistic than what we've got in the film.

    So, if they're going to remake the film, just make it more closer to the book's plot instead.

    I do find it funny how in the film even Scaramanga admits he has no idea how the Solex actually works. He seems more interested in using it for his laser gun thingy (which isn't even gold.... how he can he truly be 'the man with the golden gun' now? So stupid...). It's a pretty lame scheme really.

    I think the biggest missed opportunities with TMWTGG were a) them supposedly sidelining a lot of stuff during the script stage that made Scaramanga out to be more Bond's equal, and b) in place of this not involving an actual assassination or something during the climax, which at least would have more tension.

    Probably a controversial opinion, but even the plot of Scaramanga's plan for assassinating Bond wasn't that utilized and written well.

    I mean, what's the reason why he'd liked to assassinate Bond?
    From what he'd said, Scaramanga knew Bond was one of the best assassins in the world, killing him would've been one of Scaramanga's achievement, as he'd said: "Battle of the titans".

    Like where and how did Scaramanga knew Bond exactly? What's his motivation for wanting to kill Bond? Why he'd liked to kill James Bond?

    And it's pretty absurd because Scaramanga's assassination was personally aimed at Bond only (even specifically sending a bullet with 007 engraved on it), how did these people (Scaramanga and Andrea) knew Bond/007?

    So, one thing that went to my mind was is Bond really that popular? That celebrity status became the concept of the film, it's no different to Tiffany Case reading Peter Frank's card in Diamonds Are Forever and told: "You've just killed James Bond!"

    It's one of the reasons why I didn't liked that film, unlike in the book, Scaramanga was just an ordinary Assassin (gangster) who protects his businesses, and he killed a some British Agents or any law enforcers whom he would suspect of putting a cease into what his doing, so when Bond was sent there, it's just an ordinary mission (not personal unlike in the film), Scaramanga didn't know Bond, nor he had a knowledge of who he was, but at the same time, making Scaramanga more of Bond's evil reflection.

    I think that assassination plot would've been a lot more clear and plausible had Maibaum put a background or history between Bond and Scaramanga (of how did he knew him).


    I would say that despite how tongue in cheek the early 70s films handle Bond's reputation/notoriety (that "You've just killed James Bond!" element you pointed out in DAF and TMWTGG), I do think they could have done something with it. In the past they had FRWL in which SPECTRE (or the Russians if you go from the novel) know who Bond is and want to assassinate him. Within that very small and dangerous world it makes sense that a man like Bond is somewhat known by some of his enemies. I agree, there certainly could have been more of a backstory between Bond and Scaramanga, even if it was simply leaning into the fact that Scaramanga had previously killed a fellow 00. But I do think a 'battle of the titans' thing between Bond and an obsessed villain like Scaramanga could have worked.

    I think the problem with the novel's version of the character is that he comes off as just that, an ordinary gangster. His plan seems to involve liaising with other gangsters and doing nefarious but ultimately mundane things like smuggling prostitutes, raising the price of cane sugar, and setting up casinos... it's a bit lame as well, and I can see why they went with something else for the film.

    Truth be told, I think the decision to cast Lee as a more debonaire version of the character was the correct one. Without the novel's main hook of Bond recovering from his brainwashing and the questions of whether he's still an effective agent (and I'm not entirely sure how well the book handles this anyway) you need a strong villain and a strong scheme to raise the stakes. Like I said, it seems that the 'Bond's equal' aspect of the character was slowly diluted with each draft of the script, which is a shame. I think the closest and best adaptation of a Scaramanga type character actually came in the form of Silva from SF. Interestingly in that film they leaned much more into how that character was a sort of warped mirror image of Bond, and the film is all the more interesting for it.

    In FRWL, it's pretty reasonable because both Bond and his enemies were all in one circle (Intelligence) with the deep connections like the killing of Dr. No, and doing their research on Bond, they're this organization whose member was killed by Bond, there's a deep connection in there, Bond and SPECTRE are just in the same world.

    But in something like DAF and TMWTGG, those for me are pretty far already, they're not in the Intelligence, with far connections, they're criminals (smugglers, assassins), they're out and far from Bond's world, so for them to know Bond was really out of depth, at least for me.

    Sure, Scaramanga killed a fellow 00 (Fairbanks?) But not as personal as Bond, Scaramanga killed Fairbanks because of the Solex Agitator, but Scaramanga's intention for killing Bond was mostly personal, he knew the man pretty well.

    I suppose one can argue Bond and a villain like Scaramanga (at least in the film) would travel in similar circles. I actually think Bond having a reputation works better in TMWTGG than it does in DAF (as you yourself said, why would Tiffany Case automatically know who Bond is?) There's also a sense in TMWTGG that Bond's reputation is by name predominantly, to the point where he feels he can convincingly impersonate Scaramanga without fear of being caught.

    The whole killing of Fairbanks is such a weird and underused plot point in that film. We only learn of it through dialogue, and Bond himself doesn't seem to have much feeling towards it. When I was young and first watched the film it actually confused me as I kind of naturally assumed the gangster in the PTS was 002 (which to me even then made no sense, and it took another viewing later to clarify). That's a missed opportunity too I'd say. Not only would Scaramanga be more likely to know who Bond and the 00 section is through this connection, but actually seeing a fellow 00 die at Scaramanga's hand would help bring the story more full circle and establish how dangerous Scaramanga is in the sense he's able to kill a highly trained agent (and not just some lower grade hoodlum). A stronger sense of Bond or even M feeling... well, something at the news of this fellow agent's death, or at least a sense of how it's impacted the security of the 00 section would have helped.

    Yes, that's neater; although I guess the killing of a fellow 00 is a conceit rather over-used in the films.

    It's a tricky plot point to use I guess. Really there's a limited amount of emotional connection Bond can have to his fallen comrade (we've presumably never seen this character and Bond interact, and Bond is a relatively stoic character about death anyway). The best you can do is convey how much dissaray it brings to the 00 section in general, which isn't something we've necessarily seen from films in the past and again could have been interesting to see in TMWTGG (or indeed a future Bond film if they decide to use this plot point).

    Yes, I thought Higson's tack in the new book that the latest 00 to be killed was in a relationship with Moneypenny actually worked quite well: it's someone we care about so we feel the connection more. It's a sort of shorthand hack, but it works.
    007HallY wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    It is indeed handled strangely. I think it's always disappointing when the villain of the film seems to have little interest in the thing he's stolen or is attempting to use.

    Indeed, and as I've said a few times before, he's not actually doing anything wrong! :)

    I suppose he's murdered someone to attain it, but it's not exactly a consequential scheme really, is it? You're right, strictly speaking having the Solex isn't him doing anything 'wrong' per say. Which is a bit of a problem for a Bond film.

    Yes, the murder marks him out as a bad lot, and he is indeed not a nice guy, but equally that murder is kind of none of Bond's business! :)
    007HallY wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    But again, there's still that question, how did Scaramanga knew Bond? Why would he want to kill Bond? What's his motivation?

    I couldn't find another answer other than the possibility of Fairbanks telling Scaramanga about Bond, like what Bond did in Goldfinger when Auric was about to kill him on that laser table when Bond pointed out 008 replacing him.

    Maybe that's what Fairbanks did? He'd pointed Bond to Scaramanga ("007 would've replaced me if you kill me!"), hence, there's the 007 codename engraved on the bullet? Then Scaramanga went on to do a research about Bond, that's why he knew his name?

    But again, what's his intention for wanting to kill Bond? (Did he expected Bond to handle the Solex Agitator mission that Fairbanks failed to accomplish?)

    Come to think of it, how does Goldfinger in that film know what the 00 section is? I haven't seen the film in ages so I might be wrong, but why would he know Bond's number even if he now knows for sure he's a spy?

    Well he's working with the Chinese, isn't he.

    mtm wrote: »
    I also feel like Roger's Bond should perhaps have moved towards a more genuine love interest: perhaps his last film should have had a more mature woman in it, in the style of Octopussy, who we actually saw him get a bit more believably romantic with and create a bit more of a bond.
    Another tack you could've taken would be playing into the age difference of AVTAK and making it more of a father daughter thing. FYEO honestly plays like this to me for a good portion despite the amore scene and final coda.

    Yes it's true. Whereas I get the feeling he's more genuinely fond of Lisl, and they have a more romantic affair, brief though it is. You don't see Bond walking hand in hand on a beach the morning after with many of his conquests.
    Ludovico wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    I think the biggest missed opportunities with TMWTGG were a) them supposedly sidelining a lot of stuff during the script stage that made Scaramanga out to be more Bond's equal, and b) in place of this not involving an actual assassination or something during the climax, which at least would have more tension.

    Yes, absolutely. I do think that Scaramanga is a missed opportunity as he's a great character in a fairly naff film, and they throw away his whole unique setup i.e. being an assassin, on a dull plot about a mcguffin.
    I wouldn't be upset if they brought him back in a new film.
    007HallY wrote: »
    I think the problem with the novel's version of the character is that he comes off as just that, an ordinary gangster. His plan seems to involve liaising with other gangsters and doing nefarious but ultimately mundane things like smuggling prostitutes, raising the price of cane sugar, and setting up casinos... it's a bit lame as well, and I can see why they went with something else for the film.

    Truth be told, I think the decision to cast Lee as a more debonaire version of the character was the correct one.

    Yes, the film's version is much more suitable to the world of the Bond movies than the book one: it's a good thing they changed him.

    Ludovico wrote: »
    It might come off as controversial as lots of people here want Bond to return to standalone movies, but I think one great missed opportunity was not to give the Brosnan era more continuity AND a recurring adversary. The tenure lacked focus after GE and the series would have benefitted from a new Nemesis. Say make Trevelyan the second in command of the Janus Syndicate (two faces, two people in charge) and have Janus return in TWINE. Because of 006, they know a lot about the inner works of MI6, making them all the more dangerous.

    A Brosnan story arc is a great idea; I could see that working. I think they're rubbish, but the Union books of Raymond Benson kind of show how that could have worked. I think an arc through Brosnan's films would have been good

    I also feel like Roger's Bond should perhaps have moved towards a more genuine love interest: perhaps his last film should have had a more mature woman in it, in the style of Octopussy, who we actually saw him get a bit more believably romantic with and create a bit more of a bond.

    Otherwise I feel like Thunderball is full of missed opportunities, but not least of them is that Fiona should have been the main baddie.

    As much as I love Fiona, I don't think she would have worked as the main baddie: she's better as a femme fatale and a female assassin/henchwoman. Fleming's villains are usually deformed male "monsters" or (less often) sexually neutral/gross women. Distorted father or mother figures. Fiona doesn't fit that mold. Beside you have her the main villain, you take away the cat and mouse game that leads to her death.

    Do you? I don't think that scene needs to end in her death necessarily.
    Fleming's villains are normally like that, yes; but she's just more interesting to watch than dull old Largo, so I'd go with what's better onscreen than what normally happens in some books.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,431
    Not only does Scaramanga have a fixation on Bond he keeps a Bond mannequin in his fun house. To what end? Oh and he arms him with a PPK with loaded bullets, very handy for Bond to stumble across it. Oh and he dressed Bond mannequin in the same suit as Bond during the duel! LOL! It is really out there. I think having Bond lose his gun was a nice touch but it pained the screenwriter in a corner and his way out was pure contrivance.

    Andrea lures out Bond to kill Scaramanga. Scaramanga doesn't flinch when he sees Bond standing near the Gibson meeting with Hip. You would think he would wonder why Bond is now involved in the Solar plot. But it doesn't seem to change how he handles it. Until he kills Andrea. Which I am still trying to figure out how he hit that shot with a full stadium and no one hears the shot or notices anything.

    The more I think about it, the film is pure outlandish fun and really embraces the craziness, but there is a more serious film with more interesting space to explore. I maintain it to be one of the biggest wasted opportunities. Why did EON want to rush out a production after LALD. It almost killed the series!
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited August 2023 Posts: 16,411
    thedove wrote: »
    Not only does Scaramanga have a fixation on Bond he keeps a Bond mannequin in his fun house. To what end? Oh and he arms him with a PPK with loaded bullets, very handy for Bond to stumble across it. Oh and he dressed Bond mannequin in the same suit as Bond during the duel! LOL! It is really out there. I think having Bond lose his gun was a nice touch but it pained the screenwriter in a corner and his way out was pure contrivance.

    To be fair, Bond was wearing a natty tweed sports jacket: somehow he manages a quick change! Maybe he pops behind Al Capone or something :D

    Good point about the waxwork though, I'd forgotten that. I guess Bond just has the rep as the greatest assassin in the world next to Scaramanga, so he has him down as his greatest rival. As he shows in the film, he has no animosity towards Bond and is quite happy to let him go at the kickboxing show.
    A villain who respects and almost reveres Bond is a nicely new spin. As 007HallY pointed out and I hadn't really spotted before, Silva is the next villain to come from this angle. Interestingly he also appears to be attracted to Bond slightly (if we accept he's not just trying to rattle 007), which is what Kingsely Amis suggested Scaramanga should do in his notes for the book of TMWTGG.
    thedove wrote: »
    The more I think about it, the film is pure outlandish fun and really embraces the craziness, but there is a more serious film with more interesting space to explore. I maintain it to be one of the biggest wasted opportunities. Why did EON want to rush out a production after LALD. It almost killed the series!

    Yeah I agree, there's good stuff in there which the series doesn't really do in other entries, but the film squanders it for the solex stuff. I'd love to see someone rewrite it.
  • thedove wrote: »
    Why did EON want to rush out a production after LALD. It almost killed the series!

    I think the blame for that is more on United Artists than EON. UA was impressed by footage reels of Live and Let Die that they immediately greenlit the production of TMWTGG before LALD even released.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,431
    Okay that makes more sense @007ClassicBondFan I was thinking Harry's money troubles fueled them to rush out for the next one!
  • Posts: 15,122
    mtm wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I do think the way that Bond is drawn into the plot of TMWTGG, with the golden bullet, the threat on his life, him going off duty and investigating in his own time, the bullet turning out to have been sent by Scaramanga's lover, desperate for escape... all of that is lovely and original plotting for a Bond film. It just all falls apart in the second half.
    So yeah, I kind of count the whole movie as a missed opportunity. Keep all of that good stuff and then add a better second half, more in keeping with the idea of Scaramanga being the best assassin in the world. And don't make Bond the baddie this time!

    What it needs is an interesting backstory or a history.
    If they're going to remake it, don't make Bond a celebrity.

    Give the villain a solid, reasonable motivation to kill Bond, not just knowing him elsewhere because he's a famous British Assassin, provide a strong and deep connection.

    I don't dislike that, but I also don't mind him being known as the best British assassin by Scaramanga; I guess it's not impossible he may know. After all, in TLD, MI6 have a list of the best KGB assassins and that doesn't seem too far fetched in that film. Gregory Beam knows Bond by sight in QoS too, and by NTTD we have Logan Ash fanboying over him.
    Perhaps what would have helped is Andrea telling us she went through Scaramanga's files or something to find Bond.

    Again, in those examples, there's a deep connection and all in a same circle:

    MI6 had the list of the KGB agents (Intelligence to Intelligence).
    Logan Ash was close to Felix Leiter and was also an agent, so that's not surprising.
    And Gregory Beam was also in the Intelligence Unit.

    But Scaramanga, Tiffany Case, they're out of the circle, far from Bond's world, so knowing him that well (and personally) again, for me, was a bit out of depth.

    Scaramanga isn't out of his circle: he's ex-KGB and is an international assassin.

    Tiffany, yes: but we're not talking about her.
    007HallY wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    thedove wrote: »
    The Solex and the whole energy crisis does date the film terribly. Especially since we are in the same spot now with renewables. I guess they chose a current day headline and it bit them.

    It really didn't need the solex plot, however it gave Scaramanga the golden gun. Though it's a cliche I think.

    There are not many Bond films where I would ask for a remake, but Golden Gun is one. There is a better film in there somewhere. The rush to cash in on LALD I think hurt the film and the extra year likely would have done wonders for the film and the script.

    I think the book had an interesting plot that I wished the film just adapted instead.
    More believable and more realistic than what we've got in the film.

    So, if they're going to remake the film, just make it more closer to the book's plot instead.

    I do find it funny how in the film even Scaramanga admits he has no idea how the Solex actually works. He seems more interested in using it for his laser gun thingy (which isn't even gold.... how he can he truly be 'the man with the golden gun' now? So stupid...). It's a pretty lame scheme really.

    I think the biggest missed opportunities with TMWTGG were a) them supposedly sidelining a lot of stuff during the script stage that made Scaramanga out to be more Bond's equal, and b) in place of this not involving an actual assassination or something during the climax, which at least would have more tension.

    Probably a controversial opinion, but even the plot of Scaramanga's plan for assassinating Bond wasn't that utilized and written well.

    I mean, what's the reason why he'd liked to assassinate Bond?
    From what he'd said, Scaramanga knew Bond was one of the best assassins in the world, killing him would've been one of Scaramanga's achievement, as he'd said: "Battle of the titans".

    Like where and how did Scaramanga knew Bond exactly? What's his motivation for wanting to kill Bond? Why he'd liked to kill James Bond?

    And it's pretty absurd because Scaramanga's assassination was personally aimed at Bond only (even specifically sending a bullet with 007 engraved on it), how did these people (Scaramanga and Andrea) knew Bond/007?

    So, one thing that went to my mind was is Bond really that popular? That celebrity status became the concept of the film, it's no different to Tiffany Case reading Peter Frank's card in Diamonds Are Forever and told: "You've just killed James Bond!"

    It's one of the reasons why I didn't liked that film, unlike in the book, Scaramanga was just an ordinary Assassin (gangster) who protects his businesses, and he killed a some British Agents or any law enforcers whom he would suspect of putting a cease into what his doing, so when Bond was sent there, it's just an ordinary mission (not personal unlike in the film), Scaramanga didn't know Bond, nor he had a knowledge of who he was, but at the same time, making Scaramanga more of Bond's evil reflection.

    I think that assassination plot would've been a lot more clear and plausible had Maibaum put a background or history between Bond and Scaramanga (of how did he knew him).


    I would say that despite how tongue in cheek the early 70s films handle Bond's reputation/notoriety (that "You've just killed James Bond!" element you pointed out in DAF and TMWTGG), I do think they could have done something with it. In the past they had FRWL in which SPECTRE (or the Russians if you go from the novel) know who Bond is and want to assassinate him. Within that very small and dangerous world it makes sense that a man like Bond is somewhat known by some of his enemies. I agree, there certainly could have been more of a backstory between Bond and Scaramanga, even if it was simply leaning into the fact that Scaramanga had previously killed a fellow 00. But I do think a 'battle of the titans' thing between Bond and an obsessed villain like Scaramanga could have worked.

    I think the problem with the novel's version of the character is that he comes off as just that, an ordinary gangster. His plan seems to involve liaising with other gangsters and doing nefarious but ultimately mundane things like smuggling prostitutes, raising the price of cane sugar, and setting up casinos... it's a bit lame as well, and I can see why they went with something else for the film.

    Truth be told, I think the decision to cast Lee as a more debonaire version of the character was the correct one. Without the novel's main hook of Bond recovering from his brainwashing and the questions of whether he's still an effective agent (and I'm not entirely sure how well the book handles this anyway) you need a strong villain and a strong scheme to raise the stakes. Like I said, it seems that the 'Bond's equal' aspect of the character was slowly diluted with each draft of the script, which is a shame. I think the closest and best adaptation of a Scaramanga type character actually came in the form of Silva from SF. Interestingly in that film they leaned much more into how that character was a sort of warped mirror image of Bond, and the film is all the more interesting for it.

    In FRWL, it's pretty reasonable because both Bond and his enemies were all in one circle (Intelligence) with the deep connections like the killing of Dr. No, and doing their research on Bond, they're this organization whose member was killed by Bond, there's a deep connection in there, Bond and SPECTRE are just in the same world.

    But in something like DAF and TMWTGG, those for me are pretty far already, they're not in the Intelligence, with far connections, they're criminals (smugglers, assassins), they're out and far from Bond's world, so for them to know Bond was really out of depth, at least for me.

    Sure, Scaramanga killed a fellow 00 (Fairbanks?) But not as personal as Bond, Scaramanga killed Fairbanks because of the Solex Agitator, but Scaramanga's intention for killing Bond was mostly personal, he knew the man pretty well.

    I suppose one can argue Bond and a villain like Scaramanga (at least in the film) would travel in similar circles. I actually think Bond having a reputation works better in TMWTGG than it does in DAF (as you yourself said, why would Tiffany Case automatically know who Bond is?) There's also a sense in TMWTGG that Bond's reputation is by name predominantly, to the point where he feels he can convincingly impersonate Scaramanga without fear of being caught.

    The whole killing of Fairbanks is such a weird and underused plot point in that film. We only learn of it through dialogue, and Bond himself doesn't seem to have much feeling towards it. When I was young and first watched the film it actually confused me as I kind of naturally assumed the gangster in the PTS was 002 (which to me even then made no sense, and it took another viewing later to clarify). That's a missed opportunity too I'd say. Not only would Scaramanga be more likely to know who Bond and the 00 section is through this connection, but actually seeing a fellow 00 die at Scaramanga's hand would help bring the story more full circle and establish how dangerous Scaramanga is in the sense he's able to kill a highly trained agent (and not just some lower grade hoodlum). A stronger sense of Bond or even M feeling... well, something at the news of this fellow agent's death, or at least a sense of how it's impacted the security of the 00 section would have helped.

    Yes, that's neater; although I guess the killing of a fellow 00 is a conceit rather over-used in the films.

    It's a tricky plot point to use I guess. Really there's a limited amount of emotional connection Bond can have to his fallen comrade (we've presumably never seen this character and Bond interact, and Bond is a relatively stoic character about death anyway). The best you can do is convey how much dissaray it brings to the 00 section in general, which isn't something we've necessarily seen from films in the past and again could have been interesting to see in TMWTGG (or indeed a future Bond film if they decide to use this plot point).

    Yes, I thought Higson's tack in the new book that the latest 00 to be killed was in a relationship with Moneypenny actually worked quite well: it's someone we care about so we feel the connection more. It's a sort of shorthand hack, but it works.
    007HallY wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    It is indeed handled strangely. I think it's always disappointing when the villain of the film seems to have little interest in the thing he's stolen or is attempting to use.

    Indeed, and as I've said a few times before, he's not actually doing anything wrong! :)

    I suppose he's murdered someone to attain it, but it's not exactly a consequential scheme really, is it? You're right, strictly speaking having the Solex isn't him doing anything 'wrong' per say. Which is a bit of a problem for a Bond film.

    Yes, the murder marks him out as a bad lot, and he is indeed not a nice guy, but equally that murder is kind of none of Bond's business! :)
    007HallY wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    But again, there's still that question, how did Scaramanga knew Bond? Why would he want to kill Bond? What's his motivation?

    I couldn't find another answer other than the possibility of Fairbanks telling Scaramanga about Bond, like what Bond did in Goldfinger when Auric was about to kill him on that laser table when Bond pointed out 008 replacing him.

    Maybe that's what Fairbanks did? He'd pointed Bond to Scaramanga ("007 would've replaced me if you kill me!"), hence, there's the 007 codename engraved on the bullet? Then Scaramanga went on to do a research about Bond, that's why he knew his name?

    But again, what's his intention for wanting to kill Bond? (Did he expected Bond to handle the Solex Agitator mission that Fairbanks failed to accomplish?)

    Come to think of it, how does Goldfinger in that film know what the 00 section is? I haven't seen the film in ages so I might be wrong, but why would he know Bond's number even if he now knows for sure he's a spy?

    Well he's working with the Chinese, isn't he.

    mtm wrote: »
    I also feel like Roger's Bond should perhaps have moved towards a more genuine love interest: perhaps his last film should have had a more mature woman in it, in the style of Octopussy, who we actually saw him get a bit more believably romantic with and create a bit more of a bond.
    Another tack you could've taken would be playing into the age difference of AVTAK and making it more of a father daughter thing. FYEO honestly plays like this to me for a good portion despite the amore scene and final coda.

    Yes it's true. Whereas I get the feeling he's more genuinely fond of Lisl, and they have a more romantic affair, brief though it is. You don't see Bond walking hand in hand on a beach the morning after with many of his conquests.
    Ludovico wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    I think the biggest missed opportunities with TMWTGG were a) them supposedly sidelining a lot of stuff during the script stage that made Scaramanga out to be more Bond's equal, and b) in place of this not involving an actual assassination or something during the climax, which at least would have more tension.

    Yes, absolutely. I do think that Scaramanga is a missed opportunity as he's a great character in a fairly naff film, and they throw away his whole unique setup i.e. being an assassin, on a dull plot about a mcguffin.
    I wouldn't be upset if they brought him back in a new film.
    007HallY wrote: »
    I think the problem with the novel's version of the character is that he comes off as just that, an ordinary gangster. His plan seems to involve liaising with other gangsters and doing nefarious but ultimately mundane things like smuggling prostitutes, raising the price of cane sugar, and setting up casinos... it's a bit lame as well, and I can see why they went with something else for the film.

    Truth be told, I think the decision to cast Lee as a more debonaire version of the character was the correct one.

    Yes, the film's version is much more suitable to the world of the Bond movies than the book one: it's a good thing they changed him.

    Ludovico wrote: »
    It might come off as controversial as lots of people here want Bond to return to standalone movies, but I think one great missed opportunity was not to give the Brosnan era more continuity AND a recurring adversary. The tenure lacked focus after GE and the series would have benefitted from a new Nemesis. Say make Trevelyan the second in command of the Janus Syndicate (two faces, two people in charge) and have Janus return in TWINE. Because of 006, they know a lot about the inner works of MI6, making them all the more dangerous.

    A Brosnan story arc is a great idea; I could see that working. I think they're rubbish, but the Union books of Raymond Benson kind of show how that could have worked. I think an arc through Brosnan's films would have been good

    I also feel like Roger's Bond should perhaps have moved towards a more genuine love interest: perhaps his last film should have had a more mature woman in it, in the style of Octopussy, who we actually saw him get a bit more believably romantic with and create a bit more of a bond.

    Otherwise I feel like Thunderball is full of missed opportunities, but not least of them is that Fiona should have been the main baddie.

    As much as I love Fiona, I don't think she would have worked as the main baddie: she's better as a femme fatale and a female assassin/henchwoman. Fleming's villains are usually deformed male "monsters" or (less often) sexually neutral/gross women. Distorted father or mother figures. Fiona doesn't fit that mold. Beside you have her the main villain, you take away the cat and mouse game that leads to her death.

    Do you? I don't think that scene needs to end in her death necessarily.
    Fleming's villains are normally like that, yes; but she's just more interesting to watch than dull old Largo, so I'd go with what's better onscreen than what normally happens in some books.

    I think the sequence has absolutely to end with her dying to be fully impactful. As for Largo I never found him dull, but maybe it's because TB was my very first Bond movie. In any case, the rivalry between him and Bond would be lost, and Domino would take a serious back seat. And I looove Domino,,perfect modern damsel in distress.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited August 2023 Posts: 16,411
    Ludovico wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I do think the way that Bond is drawn into the plot of TMWTGG, with the golden bullet, the threat on his life, him going off duty and investigating in his own time, the bullet turning out to have been sent by Scaramanga's lover, desperate for escape... all of that is lovely and original plotting for a Bond film. It just all falls apart in the second half.
    So yeah, I kind of count the whole movie as a missed opportunity. Keep all of that good stuff and then add a better second half, more in keeping with the idea of Scaramanga being the best assassin in the world. And don't make Bond the baddie this time!

    What it needs is an interesting backstory or a history.
    If they're going to remake it, don't make Bond a celebrity.

    Give the villain a solid, reasonable motivation to kill Bond, not just knowing him elsewhere because he's a famous British Assassin, provide a strong and deep connection.

    I don't dislike that, but I also don't mind him being known as the best British assassin by Scaramanga; I guess it's not impossible he may know. After all, in TLD, MI6 have a list of the best KGB assassins and that doesn't seem too far fetched in that film. Gregory Beam knows Bond by sight in QoS too, and by NTTD we have Logan Ash fanboying over him.
    Perhaps what would have helped is Andrea telling us she went through Scaramanga's files or something to find Bond.

    Again, in those examples, there's a deep connection and all in a same circle:

    MI6 had the list of the KGB agents (Intelligence to Intelligence).
    Logan Ash was close to Felix Leiter and was also an agent, so that's not surprising.
    And Gregory Beam was also in the Intelligence Unit.

    But Scaramanga, Tiffany Case, they're out of the circle, far from Bond's world, so knowing him that well (and personally) again, for me, was a bit out of depth.

    Scaramanga isn't out of his circle: he's ex-KGB and is an international assassin.

    Tiffany, yes: but we're not talking about her.
    007HallY wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    thedove wrote: »
    The Solex and the whole energy crisis does date the film terribly. Especially since we are in the same spot now with renewables. I guess they chose a current day headline and it bit them.

    It really didn't need the solex plot, however it gave Scaramanga the golden gun. Though it's a cliche I think.

    There are not many Bond films where I would ask for a remake, but Golden Gun is one. There is a better film in there somewhere. The rush to cash in on LALD I think hurt the film and the extra year likely would have done wonders for the film and the script.

    I think the book had an interesting plot that I wished the film just adapted instead.
    More believable and more realistic than what we've got in the film.

    So, if they're going to remake the film, just make it more closer to the book's plot instead.

    I do find it funny how in the film even Scaramanga admits he has no idea how the Solex actually works. He seems more interested in using it for his laser gun thingy (which isn't even gold.... how he can he truly be 'the man with the golden gun' now? So stupid...). It's a pretty lame scheme really.

    I think the biggest missed opportunities with TMWTGG were a) them supposedly sidelining a lot of stuff during the script stage that made Scaramanga out to be more Bond's equal, and b) in place of this not involving an actual assassination or something during the climax, which at least would have more tension.

    Probably a controversial opinion, but even the plot of Scaramanga's plan for assassinating Bond wasn't that utilized and written well.

    I mean, what's the reason why he'd liked to assassinate Bond?
    From what he'd said, Scaramanga knew Bond was one of the best assassins in the world, killing him would've been one of Scaramanga's achievement, as he'd said: "Battle of the titans".

    Like where and how did Scaramanga knew Bond exactly? What's his motivation for wanting to kill Bond? Why he'd liked to kill James Bond?

    And it's pretty absurd because Scaramanga's assassination was personally aimed at Bond only (even specifically sending a bullet with 007 engraved on it), how did these people (Scaramanga and Andrea) knew Bond/007?

    So, one thing that went to my mind was is Bond really that popular? That celebrity status became the concept of the film, it's no different to Tiffany Case reading Peter Frank's card in Diamonds Are Forever and told: "You've just killed James Bond!"

    It's one of the reasons why I didn't liked that film, unlike in the book, Scaramanga was just an ordinary Assassin (gangster) who protects his businesses, and he killed a some British Agents or any law enforcers whom he would suspect of putting a cease into what his doing, so when Bond was sent there, it's just an ordinary mission (not personal unlike in the film), Scaramanga didn't know Bond, nor he had a knowledge of who he was, but at the same time, making Scaramanga more of Bond's evil reflection.

    I think that assassination plot would've been a lot more clear and plausible had Maibaum put a background or history between Bond and Scaramanga (of how did he knew him).


    I would say that despite how tongue in cheek the early 70s films handle Bond's reputation/notoriety (that "You've just killed James Bond!" element you pointed out in DAF and TMWTGG), I do think they could have done something with it. In the past they had FRWL in which SPECTRE (or the Russians if you go from the novel) know who Bond is and want to assassinate him. Within that very small and dangerous world it makes sense that a man like Bond is somewhat known by some of his enemies. I agree, there certainly could have been more of a backstory between Bond and Scaramanga, even if it was simply leaning into the fact that Scaramanga had previously killed a fellow 00. But I do think a 'battle of the titans' thing between Bond and an obsessed villain like Scaramanga could have worked.

    I think the problem with the novel's version of the character is that he comes off as just that, an ordinary gangster. His plan seems to involve liaising with other gangsters and doing nefarious but ultimately mundane things like smuggling prostitutes, raising the price of cane sugar, and setting up casinos... it's a bit lame as well, and I can see why they went with something else for the film.

    Truth be told, I think the decision to cast Lee as a more debonaire version of the character was the correct one. Without the novel's main hook of Bond recovering from his brainwashing and the questions of whether he's still an effective agent (and I'm not entirely sure how well the book handles this anyway) you need a strong villain and a strong scheme to raise the stakes. Like I said, it seems that the 'Bond's equal' aspect of the character was slowly diluted with each draft of the script, which is a shame. I think the closest and best adaptation of a Scaramanga type character actually came in the form of Silva from SF. Interestingly in that film they leaned much more into how that character was a sort of warped mirror image of Bond, and the film is all the more interesting for it.

    In FRWL, it's pretty reasonable because both Bond and his enemies were all in one circle (Intelligence) with the deep connections like the killing of Dr. No, and doing their research on Bond, they're this organization whose member was killed by Bond, there's a deep connection in there, Bond and SPECTRE are just in the same world.

    But in something like DAF and TMWTGG, those for me are pretty far already, they're not in the Intelligence, with far connections, they're criminals (smugglers, assassins), they're out and far from Bond's world, so for them to know Bond was really out of depth, at least for me.

    Sure, Scaramanga killed a fellow 00 (Fairbanks?) But not as personal as Bond, Scaramanga killed Fairbanks because of the Solex Agitator, but Scaramanga's intention for killing Bond was mostly personal, he knew the man pretty well.

    I suppose one can argue Bond and a villain like Scaramanga (at least in the film) would travel in similar circles. I actually think Bond having a reputation works better in TMWTGG than it does in DAF (as you yourself said, why would Tiffany Case automatically know who Bond is?) There's also a sense in TMWTGG that Bond's reputation is by name predominantly, to the point where he feels he can convincingly impersonate Scaramanga without fear of being caught.

    The whole killing of Fairbanks is such a weird and underused plot point in that film. We only learn of it through dialogue, and Bond himself doesn't seem to have much feeling towards it. When I was young and first watched the film it actually confused me as I kind of naturally assumed the gangster in the PTS was 002 (which to me even then made no sense, and it took another viewing later to clarify). That's a missed opportunity too I'd say. Not only would Scaramanga be more likely to know who Bond and the 00 section is through this connection, but actually seeing a fellow 00 die at Scaramanga's hand would help bring the story more full circle and establish how dangerous Scaramanga is in the sense he's able to kill a highly trained agent (and not just some lower grade hoodlum). A stronger sense of Bond or even M feeling... well, something at the news of this fellow agent's death, or at least a sense of how it's impacted the security of the 00 section would have helped.

    Yes, that's neater; although I guess the killing of a fellow 00 is a conceit rather over-used in the films.

    It's a tricky plot point to use I guess. Really there's a limited amount of emotional connection Bond can have to his fallen comrade (we've presumably never seen this character and Bond interact, and Bond is a relatively stoic character about death anyway). The best you can do is convey how much dissaray it brings to the 00 section in general, which isn't something we've necessarily seen from films in the past and again could have been interesting to see in TMWTGG (or indeed a future Bond film if they decide to use this plot point).

    Yes, I thought Higson's tack in the new book that the latest 00 to be killed was in a relationship with Moneypenny actually worked quite well: it's someone we care about so we feel the connection more. It's a sort of shorthand hack, but it works.
    007HallY wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    It is indeed handled strangely. I think it's always disappointing when the villain of the film seems to have little interest in the thing he's stolen or is attempting to use.

    Indeed, and as I've said a few times before, he's not actually doing anything wrong! :)

    I suppose he's murdered someone to attain it, but it's not exactly a consequential scheme really, is it? You're right, strictly speaking having the Solex isn't him doing anything 'wrong' per say. Which is a bit of a problem for a Bond film.

    Yes, the murder marks him out as a bad lot, and he is indeed not a nice guy, but equally that murder is kind of none of Bond's business! :)
    007HallY wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    But again, there's still that question, how did Scaramanga knew Bond? Why would he want to kill Bond? What's his motivation?

    I couldn't find another answer other than the possibility of Fairbanks telling Scaramanga about Bond, like what Bond did in Goldfinger when Auric was about to kill him on that laser table when Bond pointed out 008 replacing him.

    Maybe that's what Fairbanks did? He'd pointed Bond to Scaramanga ("007 would've replaced me if you kill me!"), hence, there's the 007 codename engraved on the bullet? Then Scaramanga went on to do a research about Bond, that's why he knew his name?

    But again, what's his intention for wanting to kill Bond? (Did he expected Bond to handle the Solex Agitator mission that Fairbanks failed to accomplish?)

    Come to think of it, how does Goldfinger in that film know what the 00 section is? I haven't seen the film in ages so I might be wrong, but why would he know Bond's number even if he now knows for sure he's a spy?

    Well he's working with the Chinese, isn't he.

    mtm wrote: »
    I also feel like Roger's Bond should perhaps have moved towards a more genuine love interest: perhaps his last film should have had a more mature woman in it, in the style of Octopussy, who we actually saw him get a bit more believably romantic with and create a bit more of a bond.
    Another tack you could've taken would be playing into the age difference of AVTAK and making it more of a father daughter thing. FYEO honestly plays like this to me for a good portion despite the amore scene and final coda.

    Yes it's true. Whereas I get the feeling he's more genuinely fond of Lisl, and they have a more romantic affair, brief though it is. You don't see Bond walking hand in hand on a beach the morning after with many of his conquests.
    Ludovico wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    I think the biggest missed opportunities with TMWTGG were a) them supposedly sidelining a lot of stuff during the script stage that made Scaramanga out to be more Bond's equal, and b) in place of this not involving an actual assassination or something during the climax, which at least would have more tension.

    Yes, absolutely. I do think that Scaramanga is a missed opportunity as he's a great character in a fairly naff film, and they throw away his whole unique setup i.e. being an assassin, on a dull plot about a mcguffin.
    I wouldn't be upset if they brought him back in a new film.
    007HallY wrote: »
    I think the problem with the novel's version of the character is that he comes off as just that, an ordinary gangster. His plan seems to involve liaising with other gangsters and doing nefarious but ultimately mundane things like smuggling prostitutes, raising the price of cane sugar, and setting up casinos... it's a bit lame as well, and I can see why they went with something else for the film.

    Truth be told, I think the decision to cast Lee as a more debonaire version of the character was the correct one.

    Yes, the film's version is much more suitable to the world of the Bond movies than the book one: it's a good thing they changed him.

    Ludovico wrote: »
    It might come off as controversial as lots of people here want Bond to return to standalone movies, but I think one great missed opportunity was not to give the Brosnan era more continuity AND a recurring adversary. The tenure lacked focus after GE and the series would have benefitted from a new Nemesis. Say make Trevelyan the second in command of the Janus Syndicate (two faces, two people in charge) and have Janus return in TWINE. Because of 006, they know a lot about the inner works of MI6, making them all the more dangerous.

    A Brosnan story arc is a great idea; I could see that working. I think they're rubbish, but the Union books of Raymond Benson kind of show how that could have worked. I think an arc through Brosnan's films would have been good

    I also feel like Roger's Bond should perhaps have moved towards a more genuine love interest: perhaps his last film should have had a more mature woman in it, in the style of Octopussy, who we actually saw him get a bit more believably romantic with and create a bit more of a bond.

    Otherwise I feel like Thunderball is full of missed opportunities, but not least of them is that Fiona should have been the main baddie.

    As much as I love Fiona, I don't think she would have worked as the main baddie: she's better as a femme fatale and a female assassin/henchwoman. Fleming's villains are usually deformed male "monsters" or (less often) sexually neutral/gross women. Distorted father or mother figures. Fiona doesn't fit that mold. Beside you have her the main villain, you take away the cat and mouse game that leads to her death.

    Do you? I don't think that scene needs to end in her death necessarily.
    Fleming's villains are normally like that, yes; but she's just more interesting to watch than dull old Largo, so I'd go with what's better onscreen than what normally happens in some books.

    I think the sequence has absolutely to end with her dying to be fully impactful. As for Largo I never found him dull, but maybe it's because TB was my very first Bond movie. In any case, the rivalry between him and Bond would be lost, and Domino would take a serious back seat. And I looove Domino,,perfect modern damsel in distress.

    I think I just find the interactions between her and Bond sizzle with tension, and she comes across as a really formidable enemy who sees right through him, whereas Connery and Celi may as well not be in the same room when they have their scenes together.
    I think Domino is very pretty, but perhaps slightly vacant. I am glad these bits work for you though- I'm jealous!

    I find Thunderball a missed opportunity to make a follow-up to Goldfinger. Audiences loved the gadgets and wit, outlandish enemies and fantastical lairs and sets in GF, but TB didn't seem to register those and went a bit more pedestrian with its plot and embellishments.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    edited August 2023 Posts: 4,634
    Ludovico wrote: »
    It might come off as controversial as lots of people here want Bond to return to standalone movies, but I think one great missed opportunity was not to give the Brosnan era more continuity AND a recurring adversary. The tenure lacked focus after GE and the series would have benefitted from a new Nemesis. Say make Trevelyan the second in command of the Janus Syndicate (two faces, two people in charge) and have Janus return in TWINE. Because of 006, they know a lot about the inner works of MI6, making them all the more dangerous.

    I never thought of Trevelyan being a recurring villain in PB's era! That would have worked. If EON was going to make TWINE second, Elektra could have been a bigger villain as she knew M. Ironically, this was before M started getting more screen time. If Alec, Elektra and even Janus' plans got more well known, then TND could be the third film. Elliot Carver could get more ambitious starting to make bigger plans for Carver Media by having possible sources with each villain. And then TND could happen as planned, with some more minor adjustments, including other's ideas. I still think Alec could come back in the future, with a Harvey Dent into Two-Face type of story for a two or three movie arc.
    007HallY wrote: »
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    thedove wrote: »
    The Solex and the whole energy crisis does date the film terribly. Especially since we are in the same spot now with renewables. I guess they chose a current day headline and it bit them.

    It really didn't need the solex plot, however it gave Scaramanga the golden gun. Though it's a cliche I think.

    There are not many Bond films where I would ask for a remake, but Golden Gun is one. There is a better film in there somewhere. The rush to cash in on LALD I think hurt the film and the extra year likely would have done wonders for the film and the script.

    I think the book had an interesting plot that I wished the film just adapted instead.
    More believable and more realistic than what we've got in the film.

    So, if they're going to remake the film, just make it more closer to the book's plot instead.

    I do find it funny how in the film even Scaramanga admits he has no idea how the Solex actually works. He seems more interested in using it for his laser gun thingy (which isn't even gold.... how he can he truly be 'the man with the golden gun' now? So stupid...). It's a pretty lame scheme really.

    I think the biggest missed opportunities with TMWTGG were a) them supposedly sidelining a lot of stuff during the script stage that made Scaramanga out to be more Bond's equal, and b) in place of this not involving an actual assassination or something during the climax, which at least would have more tension.

    Proof that Richard Maibaum wasn’t always the best person to write Bond films. Controversial opinion I know. But his ego often got the better of him, and the way he talked down to the supposedly other EON family members. As much I wish that LALD was more faithful to the novel, I’m happy that Tom Mankiewicz went solo on it.

    I would say Maibaum's contributions to some the great Bond films like DN, FRWL, and OHMSS are worth praising. But at the same time it's worth recognising that he wasn't the only writer on any of those scripts, and often the contributions of other lesser known writers went either sidelined or outright uncredited. From my understanding he certainly had a habit of talking down to others at EON quite publicly, which is pretty rich considering some of his more outlandish (ie. stupid) ideas would have made their way into Bond films without the producers overseeing things.

    I also think having a lot of Fleming available to him was helpful. The way he talked to and about certain actors and other writers was both disrespectful and unprofessional. More often than not, an actor is only as strong as the script that they're given. His scripts can be proof. Even Purvis and Wade don't go out of their way to bash others for poor work. They are there to write, they do it, and let someone else usually write. But they are at least decent to others, in terms of professionalism. That's arguably the reason EON keeps hiring them back.

    As for other missed opportunities, I have quite a few, across all Bond media.

    Movies:
    EON not going after the rights to film Colonel Sun. They clearly have a liking for the novel, as shown over the recent years.
    Not giving SC or PB more creative control, they could have left the series on better terms.
    Giving DC way too much creative control, he didn't really have great ideas.
    A faithful adaptation of DAF, with Jack Palance, Vincent Price or Cliff Robertson as the Sprang Brothers.
    Peter Hunt not just directing DAF following OHMSS, but a faithful adaptation of LALD, with Felix getting fed to a shark.
    Not having David Hedison as Felix Leiter lead the boat chase after Bond in LALD.
    Sir Anthony Hopkins, Oliver Reed or Malcolm McDowell not playing a villain or an MI6 regular.
    Martin Campbell not directing QOS or filming DC's second film back to back with CR for a 2007 release, a one in a millennium chance.
    Marc Forster being allowed to direct a Bond film without being a Bond fan, writer's strike or not.
    EON not letting Kevin McClory co-produce films with them about films with Blofeld and SPECTRE. The rights could have come back sooner.
    Blofeld not being a villain in TSWLM or OP, and either Donald Pleasence or Telly Savalas coming back as Blofeld in either movie.
    Gert Frobe not coming back as Goldfinger in DAF or OP.
    Having Michael Madsen play Felix Leiter in GE and DAD. Joe Don Baker was distracting, and Jack Wade might as well have been Felix despite LTK.
    Q should have been in Leiter's and Wade's roles in TLD and TND.
    Not having Faye Dunaway play Octopussy, she never really did a full-on blockbuster.
    Not having Wai Lin and Jinx get spinoff movies, or better yet one big movie for both to star in.

    Video Games:

    Not letting Sir Roger Moore and John Cleese come back in their roles for Agent Under Fire as intended. Interesting missed pair-up for comedic moments.
    James Bond 007 for GameBoy should have been brought to the N64 and PS1 consoles. With the same story and characters, as Goldeneye 007 was big at the time.
    007 Legends not getting delayed and more time to develop more in the storyline missions.
    Sean Bean not coming back as Alec Trevelyan in GE Reloaded.
    Cancelling TND: The Mission Continues, pulling the movie's plot into the game and releasing it on the Nintendo 64 as well.
    Cancelling Goldeneye Rogue Agent, and moving the villains of Pussy Galore, Goldfinger, Oddjob, Dr. No, Xenia (voiced and modeled after Famke Janssen) and Scaramanga (voiced and modeled after Sir Christopher Lee) to a more polished and a bigger story version of FRWL with Sir Sean Connery. There could still be the villain rivalry story arc. Keep the FRWL characters and set in the 60s.
    Everything or Nothing not getting a novelization by Raymond Benson or Bruce Feirstein. With Nikolai Diavolo getting a backstory with Max Zorin making an appearance. Also, how Diavolo met with Dr. Katya Nadanova and Jaws. Plus other characters getting short backstories.

    Books:

    Raymond Benson not getting to write a Bond Short Story collection like he wanted.
    IFP not having at least one adult Bond novel between 2002 and 2008.
    Devil May Care not following Colonel Sun in the original timeline. It was the 40th anniversary of the book, it makes sense.
    Carte Blanche being a one-off novel. Kim Sherwood could have followed it with her Double-0 trilogy, same with OHisMSS.
    Having villain spinoff stories set in the present day, namely Blofeld, Scaramanga, Goldfinger and Treveylan and some of their associates.

    Most of my other missed or poor opportunities have already been shared.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,431
    I have never seen or read of any disrespectful comments from Maibaum. I only recall a few Starlog interviews and he didn't speak highly of LALD and thought James Bond didn't belong in the world of drugs and voodoo. Just his opinion.

    Maibaum was a talented writer and responsible for hits and misses. I believe he understood the character of James Bond. He wrote for 3 different Bond actors and seemed to be somewhat able to hit the right notes for the actor. He wasn't perfect.

    You have some great thoughts on that list. May I ask why you thought Gert Frobe coming back to play GF in OP was a missed opportunity or was that a mistype? I know they looked at bringing him back for DAF. Never heard of him returning for OP.
  • Posts: 15,122
    I would not change a thing about the first four movies. For me they are the core Bond films, the pillars of the franchise. Very close to the source material as well.
  • thedove wrote: »
    I have never seen or read of any disrespectful comments from Maibaum. I only recall a few Starlog interviews and he didn't speak highly of LALD and thought James Bond didn't belong in the world of drugs and voodoo. Just his opinion.

    Maibaum was a talented writer and responsible for hits and misses. I believe he understood the character of James Bond. He wrote for 3 different Bond actors and seemed to be somewhat able to hit the right notes for the actor. He wasn't perfect.

    You have some great thoughts on that list. May I ask why you thought Gert Frobe coming back to play GF in OP was a missed opportunity or was that a mistype? I know they looked at bringing him back for DAF. Never heard of him returning for OP.

    I’ve seen an interview where he’s highly critical of Roger Moore’s Bond, and saying that a film like “For Your Eyes Only” didn’t work because they didn’t have someone like Connery playing the part. It may have been the Starlog interview but I may be mistaken.
  • Posts: 1,993
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I would not change a thing about the first four movies. For me they are the core Bond films, the pillars of the franchise. Very close to the source material as well.

    Not perfect films, but oh so entertaining. YOLT was my first real disappointment. I think for the first time a Bond film felt silly, as in SPECTRE's Jaws-like space ship and a Blofeld who never quite posed the threat of earlier villains. The history of the series has been uneven, some Bonds more engaging than others.

    For me the missed opportunities were too often abandoning Fleming's material for stories that barely resembled the novels. Sometimes those very loosely adapted screenplays improved things. For example, I thought LALD presented a better developed Solitaire, even though some scenes from the novel were abandoned and show up later in FYEO and LTK.


  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,431
    thedove wrote: »
    I have never seen or read of any disrespectful comments from Maibaum. I only recall a few Starlog interviews and he didn't speak highly of LALD and thought James Bond didn't belong in the world of drugs and voodoo. Just his opinion.

    Maibaum was a talented writer and responsible for hits and misses. I believe he understood the character of James Bond. He wrote for 3 different Bond actors and seemed to be somewhat able to hit the right notes for the actor. He wasn't perfect.

    You have some great thoughts on that list. May I ask why you thought Gert Frobe coming back to play GF in OP was a missed opportunity or was that a mistype? I know they looked at bringing him back for DAF. Never heard of him returning for OP.

    I’ve seen an interview where he’s highly critical of Roger Moore’s Bond, and saying that a film like “For Your Eyes Only” didn’t work because they didn’t have someone like Connery playing the part. It may have been the Starlog interview but I may be mistaken.

    Yes I do recall that bit. It was in a Starlog interview, he also said that lines were put into the film that neither him or Wilson wrote. The fact that Moore didn't wish to do the kick of the car and suggested that instead the dove pin be the cause of the car tumble tells me he may have been right. Moore was not a "blunt instrument", though I do give me credit for doing the scene as written!
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited August 2023 Posts: 16,411
    thedove wrote: »
    thedove wrote: »
    I have never seen or read of any disrespectful comments from Maibaum. I only recall a few Starlog interviews and he didn't speak highly of LALD and thought James Bond didn't belong in the world of drugs and voodoo. Just his opinion.

    Maibaum was a talented writer and responsible for hits and misses. I believe he understood the character of James Bond. He wrote for 3 different Bond actors and seemed to be somewhat able to hit the right notes for the actor. He wasn't perfect.

    You have some great thoughts on that list. May I ask why you thought Gert Frobe coming back to play GF in OP was a missed opportunity or was that a mistype? I know they looked at bringing him back for DAF. Never heard of him returning for OP.

    I’ve seen an interview where he’s highly critical of Roger Moore’s Bond, and saying that a film like “For Your Eyes Only” didn’t work because they didn’t have someone like Connery playing the part. It may have been the Starlog interview but I may be mistaken.

    Yes I do recall that bit. It was in a Starlog interview, he also said that lines were put into the film that neither him or Wilson wrote. The fact that Moore didn't wish to do the kick of the car and suggested that instead the dove pin be the cause of the car tumble tells me he may have been right. Moore was not a "blunt instrument", though I do give me credit for doing the scene as written!

    I do think the pin thing is a bit more cinematic and ironic than just the kick would be though; I like it!

    It's very similar to Bond chucking Killifer his case of cash as he dangles over the sharks in LTK: the dramatic irony of him being killed by the thing he brandished or coveted. And that the car is de-stabled by the few grams it weighs (and Bond knows that it will be!) is nice movie lyricism. But we get the kick as well anyway, so it's the best of all worlds!
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    The car kick is one of Moore's darker moments, especially that late into his tenure, and probably one of my favorite kills in the series overall. I have so much appreciation for FYEO.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    edited August 2023 Posts: 4,634
    mtm wrote: »
    thedove wrote: »
    thedove wrote: »
    I have never seen or read of any disrespectful comments from Maibaum. I only recall a few Starlog interviews and he didn't speak highly of LALD and thought James Bond didn't belong in the world of drugs and voodoo. Just his opinion.

    Maibaum was a talented writer and responsible for hits and misses. I believe he understood the character of James Bond. He wrote for 3 different Bond actors and seemed to be somewhat able to hit the right notes for the actor. He wasn't perfect.

    You have some great thoughts on that list. May I ask why you thought Gert Frobe coming back to play GF in OP was a missed opportunity or was that a mistype? I know they looked at bringing him back for DAF. Never heard of him returning for OP.

    I’ve seen an interview where he’s highly critical of Roger Moore’s Bond, and saying that a film like “For Your Eyes Only” didn’t work because they didn’t have someone like Connery playing the part. It may have been the Starlog interview but I may be mistaken.

    Yes I do recall that bit. It was in a Starlog interview, he also said that lines were put into the film that neither him or Wilson wrote. The fact that Moore didn't wish to do the kick of the car and suggested that instead the dove pin be the cause of the car tumble tells me he may have been right. Moore was not a "blunt instrument", though I do give me credit for doing the scene as written!

    I do think the pin thing is a bit cinematic and ironic than just the kick though; I like it!

    Maibaum actually wrote for 4 Bond actors, actually. Three of them twice! I think he was a bit hypocritical to call out LALD for drugs when he used the same thing (using LALD the book as a reference, to boot), for LTK.

    As for Goldfinger in Octopussy, I read it in Some Kind Of Hero (2015). It was meant to be a cameo with Gert Fröbe coming back. This was not long before he died, in real life. Sorry for the late reply @thedove I always enjoy your threads.
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