"You missed Mister Bond!"..."Did I?"...The Missed Opportunities of Never Say Never Again

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  • edited February 12 Posts: 1,340
    Seano wrote: »
    To me, the biggest miss is the failure to go all the way in breaking with the convention of a Bond movie. In particular, although the Q scenes were entertaining, I think they could have made a better film without him and really forced Bond to be on his own in taking on Sanchez. Perhaps Bond could have found a local ally to help or they could have given him an angle to leverage against someone in Sanchez's operation in a similar way that Pam was trying to leverage Heller over the Stingers.

    That and they should have been willing to give Bond and Leiter a meaningful reunion at the end of the film instead of a 20-second phone call where all the loose ends are wrapped up in a bow.

    I think it's a good thing. It's a Bond movie with Q, girls, underwater scenes and all this stuff.

    It's not Death Wish 4 1/2.
  • LTK is a favourite of mine, probably my second favourite film in the series, but the first act in Florida is really bland visually and lacks excitement and class. Not contrasting the first act with the rest of the film, by anchoring it in a less tropical setting, is a missed opportunity. It could have given a more striking identity to both the said first act and Isthmus by contrast.

    Speaking of setting, not localising the film in Southeast Asia, as it was a moment suggested, remains a missed opportunity. It would have offered the audience a more exotic and commercially appealing adventure. I know China was quickly out of consideration because The Last Emperor had removed some of the novelty from filming there and because of potential censorship issues, but other Asian countries could have been chosen. The best scenes in the film are, in my opinion, those taking place at night or at the casino and these scenes could have worked just as well if they had taken place in Macau, Singapore, or a fictional Asian city.

    Another missed opportunity is the treatment of both characters of Felix Leiter and Moneypenny. On paper, Moneypenny plays an important role by being the one who contacts Q and asks him to travel to Isthmus City. While I'm not sure how it could have been archived, I would have liked to see Caroline Bliss shine more in the role. Maybe by being the one who Bond calls at the end and who says to him that M is thinking about offering him his job back. This leads me to Leiter who is poorly treated after being fed to the shark. Again, I'm not sure how it could have been archived, but I wish he wasn't sidelined so much. If I recall correctly, earlier drafts featured him discussing with Bond and Pam how to dismantle Sanchez's criminal empire, so bringing him back in a way or another could have been nice.

    Last but not least, not having kept the deleted scene with Bond in his hotel room is another missed opportunity, as this scene would have helped to better establish the character of Bond (and very nice Fleminesque moment).
  • SeanoSeano Minnesota. No, it's not always cold.
    Posts: 44
    It's not Death Wish 4 1/2.

    But it kind of is, though. The whole genesis of the movie is the maiming of Bond's key ally and the rape and murder of said ally's wife. Bond is willing to toss his career in the toilet and risk going solo against Sanchez. It's the darkest and most personal of Bond's missions to that point. I just think that the tonal shifts don't always work for me in this one.

  • edited February 13 Posts: 1,340
    Seano wrote: »
    It's not Death Wish 4 1/2.

    But it kind of is, though. The whole genesis of the movie is the maiming of Bond's key ally and the rape and murder of said ally's wife. Bond is willing to toss his career in the toilet and risk going solo against Sanchez. It's the darkest and most personal of Bond's missions to that point. I just think that the tonal shifts don't always work for me in this one.

    That's why I think this Bondian elements are necessary.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,426
    @Herr_Stockmann I agree. Most deleted scenes are deleted for good reason. This one would have been a great add to the movie and allowed for Tim to have a great moment of no dialogue but act!

    I find the whole film is very un-glamorous. Even the casino scenes seem to be shot in a studio and have a look of that. In fact like other Bond films I never say "The money is on the screen." The sets look for the most part cheap or at least un-inspired.

    I think the sets and the locales have to go down as a missed opportunity for me. The film has the feel of a TV movie in terms of sets and locations. Maybe having it in a fictional country made it feel this way.

    Compared to Bond visiting St. Monique in LALD and the difference is noticeable.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited February 13 Posts: 3,789
    Seano wrote: »
    It's not Death Wish 4 1/2.

    But it kind of is, though. The whole genesis of the movie is the maiming of Bond's key ally and the rape and murder of said ally's wife. Bond is willing to toss his career in the toilet and risk going solo against Sanchez. It's the darkest and most personal of Bond's missions to that point. I just think that the tonal shifts don't always work for me in this one.

    I'm not surprised by this, the Producers didn't even dived that much into Bond's personal revenge after his own wife was killed, and still went a lighter tone, I mean, they've never went that route till Quantum of Solace, I mean, we're all expecting a brutal and violent retribution from Bond against Blofeld but what we've got? Pitting him inside a bathosub? Throwing him down a chimney stack? Not surprising.
    thedove wrote: »
    @Herr_Stockmann I agree. Most deleted scenes are deleted for good reason. This one would have been a great add to the movie and allowed for Tim to have a great moment of no dialogue but act!

    I find the whole film is very un-glamorous. Even the casino scenes seem to be shot in a studio and have a look of that. In fact like other Bond films I never say "The money is on the screen." The sets look for the most part cheap or at least un-inspired.

    I think the sets and the locales have to go down as a missed opportunity for me. The film has the feel of a TV movie in terms of sets and locations. Maybe having it in a fictional country made it feel this way.

    Compared to Bond visiting St. Monique in LALD and the difference is noticeable.

    Exactly, this is really the biggest missed opportunity in this film, I could give some missed opportunities, but this is the main one, it lacks that cinematic Bond formula, even Dr. No for how small the budget that's given into that film, it's still looked cinematic.

    Although the climax from the Olympatec Meditation Institution to the end, it got better in terms of aesthetics, at least there's that, the whole third and final act is beautifully shot, but yes, the first and second act were really poorly shot, it's like a Miami Vice or Lethal Weapon, very generic, even Rambo still looked cinematic.

    Still better than For Your Eyes Only though, for me, that one from start to finish, it's just dull and bland looking, it's almost like a small European Soap Opera Drama episode on TV.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,711
    I watched LTK last night after learning of the death of Alec Mills, and I guess I have a couple thoughts....

    The story and script are about as good as it gets in the series--scenes serve more than one purpose and sometimes set things up that pay off quite some time later. That's not exactly typical for Bond. It's great. The cast is extremely strong as well, and I'd say there's not a weak link in the bunch.

    I don't have any problems with the cinematography, but there are a few hideous sets they have to film, and it doesn't come out so good, so job one is make some better sets--in particular Felix's house.

    But the biggest improvement in my mind would be to just bite the bullet and make the movie longer.

    I think more or less every single deleted scene should be in the film. First of all, the fanboy favorite of Bond in the hotel room is indeed too perfect to cut, and it also has some good production value--the footage of Sanchez on the screen has a lot of extras and looks great.

    A couple scenes offer a good showcase for Tim's humor--the casino bit about "walking around money" is a good one, and I love the one where he buys the guy's boat. They show us Bond being cool and a bit funny in a way Tim didn't get offered much by his scripts.

    Another scene set up the British agent watching Bond and also introduced Sanchez's goons, which is helpful. It may be hard to remember the first time you watched LTK, but it's not easy to pick up the names of some of these guys. It's not the fanboy dream that morose Bond smoking in his hotel offers, but it's something that should be there.

    Just put it all back in.

    And for that matter, the early part of the movie, okay, first of all, it needs better set decoration, as discussed before, but it also moves too quickly. They were clearly forced to cut for time, but not much can really be removed entirely, so they seem to have shaved bits off the ends of scenes, again and again. Just make a 140-150 minute movie and let it all breathe. The last 90 minutes of the existing film are IMO pretty perfectly paced, and I think it's okay to spend a tiny bit more time with some the central characters in the first hour.

    But I love the movie as we have it, it's one of my favorites, and I was reminded again last night that despite the way some people regard LTK, it's also one of the funniest films in the series, if not the funniest.
  • Posts: 7,418
    Very good points @ProfJoeButcher
    And I agree, LTK may lack the visuals ( though I think it has a couple of good moments) but makes up for it in a strong story and characters, plus the action sequences ( some of the best in the series) serve the story, rather than a "lets stop and see what the stuntguys can do!" of some of the films!
    If it is lacking anything its a stronger score, though I love what he did with the gunbarrel, i think Michael Kamens music doesn't do justice to the film ( and boy would I have loved to have seen what John Barry would have done, but wasn't he ill at the time?)
  • edited February 14 Posts: 1,340
    thedove wrote: »
    @Herr_Stockmann I agree. Most deleted scenes are deleted for good reason. This one would have been a great add to the movie and allowed for Tim to have a great moment of no dialogue but act!

    I find the whole film is very un-glamorous. Even the casino scenes seem to be shot in a studio and have a look of that. In fact like other Bond films I never say "The money is on the screen." The sets look for the most part cheap or at least un-inspired.

    I think the sets and the locales have to go down as a missed opportunity for me. The film has the feel of a TV movie in terms of sets and locations. Maybe having it in a fictional country made it feel this way.

    Compared to Bond visiting St. Monique in LALD and the difference is noticeable.

    LALD looks like a TV show too. A lost episode of The Saint.

    IMO LTK looks OK. Sure, it's un-glamorous but it's more naturalistic this way.

    The wide shots help a lot. The movie is cheaper but it's not full of close-ups like GE.

  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    edited February 14 Posts: 2,016
    I think when a film lacks lots of aerial and wide shots, it looks compact, then it resembles a TV show. That's the slight problem with LTK, but doesn't ruin the film.

    LALD looks cinematic. Nothing wrong with its look.
  • edited February 14 Posts: 4,139
    For me what makes LALD sometimes come off that way is partly the aspect ratio and partly because the filmmaking can, at times, be outright lazy (ie. The fact that no one reacts to the guy dying at the conference which comes off less as a tangible joke and more an editing/script flaw, the barely concealed rubber snake, the boat chase being edited in a way which makes it drag slightly etc). It’s exactly the same issues that DAF and TMWTGG have, and I’m relatively sure it’s a Hamilton problem (even GF - one of the most cinematic Bond films, has a 1:85 ratio and Peter Hunt constantly complained about Hamilton’s direction/having a lack of good footage to work with).

    LTK just seemed to suffer from the fact that the budgets had been frozen in the Bond series for so long. It does have its share of odd jokes which don’t quite land, but the filmmaking is more polished I’d say, even if it’s not always as lush looking.
  • Posts: 1,340
    1. Better suits for Bond.
    2. A better haircut.

    The movie is fine. The script is solid despite the strike.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,383
    They should have killed Felix properly. No point in him surviving.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,711
    mtm wrote: »
    They should have killed Felix properly. No point in him surviving.

    That would have been okay, and as an added bonus, when he pops up again in Casino Royale, it might help certain folks understand how the NTTD-B26 transition is going to work!
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    mtm wrote: »
    They should have killed Felix properly. No point in him surviving.

    That would have been okay, and as an added bonus, when he pops up again in Casino Royale, it might help certain folks understand how the NTTD-B26 transition is going to work!

    😂 good point!
  • Posts: 4,139
    mtm wrote: »
    They should have killed Felix properly. No point in him surviving.

    It’s kinda odd that this was the film that essentially retired the character until the series was rebooted. Even to the point where they came up with a sort of stand in for Bond’s regular CIA contact in the form of Wade (who doesn’t add much).

    I mean, could we not have seen a version of Felix with a fake hand and leg? Suppose we couldn’t even get a version of Felix who mourned his wife at this point mind…
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited February 15 Posts: 18,270
    mtm wrote: »
    They should have killed Felix properly. No point in him surviving.

    I suppose given that it was the Dalton era they were just staying true to the original Fleming LALD source novel and didn't want to kill Leiter off altogether. The shark mauling happened to the literary Leiter in only his second appearance as Bond's CIA ally.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited February 15 Posts: 3,789
    mtm wrote: »
    They should have killed Felix properly. No point in him surviving.

    Felix Leiter is like Blofeld, perhaps, they couldn't just kill the character for the sake of possibly using the character again, if not for McClory case, I doubt the Producers would kill him like the faceless one in For Your Eyes Only.

    Felix Leiter changed faces in the course of the first 16 films, just like how Blofeld changed faces, Savalas' Blofeld ended up with a neck brace, Charles Grey appeared with a hair and no neck brace, so they've thought the same for Felix Leiter, a possibility that Hedison's Felix Leiter had his legs mauled by a shark, but the next one would appear with a different face and complete body, maybe had Dalton stayed.

    But what happened was he was replaced by Jack Wade, and probably it's because to separate Dalton's Era to Brosnan's Era.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,426
    Interesting thought @SIS_HQ the PTS seems to almost wipe out Dalton as Bond with the years later tag. Maybe the Brosnan era is a stand alone series. After all it was a new M and a new Moneypenny. A re-introduction of Tanner. One does wonder why Felix wasn't used in the 2 films. Why didn't Wade return in DAD? Questions questions questions to quote the quotable Fiona! :)
  • 007HallY wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    They should have killed Felix properly. No point in him surviving.

    It’s kinda odd that this was the film that essentially retired the character until the series was rebooted. Even to the point where they came up with a sort of stand in for Bond’s regular CIA contact in the form of Wade (who doesn’t add much).

    I mean, could we not have seen a version of Felix with a fake hand and leg? Suppose we couldn’t even get a version of Felix who mourned his wife at this point mind…

    I suppose that may be down to LTK’s mixed critical reception. I would’ve loved to see Felix with the prosthetics too.
  • edited February 15 Posts: 5,993
    For GE : the biggest missed opportunity is that we were presented with the BMW Z3, learned that it had some interesting gadgets, and never saw any of them in use. No chase scene featuring it, nada !

    Oh, and I agree about Felix : I would have liked seeing him with prosthetics.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited February 15 Posts: 3,789
    thedove wrote: »
    Interesting thought @SIS_HQ the PTS seems to almost wipe out Dalton as Bond with the years later tag. Maybe the Brosnan era is a stand alone series. After all it was a new M and a new Moneypenny. A re-introduction of Tanner. One does wonder why Felix wasn't used in the 2 films. Why didn't Wade return in DAD? Questions questions questions to quote the quotable Fiona! :)

    It's still a question to me why Felix wasn't used in the Brosnan Era, but I may assume that his return would make people remind of LTK, after all, it didn't do well in Box Office, and to also separate Brosnan's Bond from Dalton's Bond, but again, we've seen some of Dalton's Bond mementos in DAD when Bond visited Q's lab (The Outrigger of his Aston Martin V8 was present in the background), an implication that Brosnan's Bond may be the same Bond as Dalton's Bond.

    About Jack Wade not appearing in DAD, we could assume that Jinx was made as a stand for Jack Wade, to be honest, he would've been unnecessary in DAD, what could be his role in there? He couldn't be Falco, as he's not a superior, he couldn't be Bond's US partner, as Jinx filled that part, and I doubt Wade was great in combat skills, as we've never saw him hold a gun before, second thought, maybe because of the actor, Joe Doe Baker may not have been available at the time, after all, he didn't appeared in TWINE either.
  • Posts: 4,139
    007HallY wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    They should have killed Felix properly. No point in him surviving.

    It’s kinda odd that this was the film that essentially retired the character until the series was rebooted. Even to the point where they came up with a sort of stand in for Bond’s regular CIA contact in the form of Wade (who doesn’t add much).

    I mean, could we not have seen a version of Felix with a fake hand and leg? Suppose we couldn’t even get a version of Felix who mourned his wife at this point mind…

    I suppose that may be down to LTK’s mixed critical reception. I would’ve loved to see Felix with the prosthetics too.

    Possibly. I suppose rewatching Wade's first scene there's an element that they were trying to subvert a typical Bond ally type character. He's pretty much played for laughs though (at least in GE).

    And hey, I'd love to see a future Felix who first appears with a fake hand/leg. Could easily see him with a more updated robotic hand.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,426
    Good stuff about LTK. Definitely hit on some things that could have been improved. Since we have started to mention Jack Wade, lets shift our focus to

    The missed opportunities of Goldeneye

    A new Bond, a new director and a new screenwriter! The result was an renaissance for Bond. We saw an explosion and a return to cultural relevance.

    But yet were there missed opportunities?

    Often the soundtrack is singled out as a sore point with fans, but are there other missed opportunities within this gem of a film?

    Remember that a missed opportunity is a casting choice, a story line that doesn't have a good end, a poor character arc, etc.

    goldeneye-poster-e1607601434214.jpg
  • GE is about as perfect a Bond film as you can get imo. There’s nothing that I would change.
  • edited February 17 Posts: 1,340
    Why didn't Bond f* with Xenia? I mean, a great and suspenseful scene was missed.



  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,790
    Shorter haircut. Beefed up a bit would help.

    More traditional Bond score is a big one. Maybe drop the bit about the pint and first reveal of 007 didn't have to be in a men's room. A clever gadget in the Aston Martin or BMW would be welcome, that or I should admire their restraint.

    Those and Timothy Dalton.

  • Posts: 4,139
    Personally, I believe GE is about as perfect as any Bond film can get. One of my favourites and always has been. It’s near flawless, with just one notable exception….

    The fact that the stinger missiles on the BMW are foreshadowed, and absolutely nothing is done with them. It’s one of the weirdest missed opportunities in a Bond film.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    Posts: 3,789
    Filmmaking aspects, yes.
    The way it's shot, it's very dated, the camera movements, and the transition of the PTS to the Title Sequence.
    And the Eric Serra score.
  • Posts: 5,993
    As I said above, the BMW Z3. Presented to Bond, gadgets (missiles and a parachute, IIRC) mentioned, but nothing was done with the car. It didn't appear in any chase scene.
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