"You missed Mister Bond!"..."Did I?"...The Missed Opportunities of Never Say Never Again

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  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 2,016
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    Taking some inspiration from the best shot per decade thread. I've always felt this should have been the first shot of Pierce's Bond. It's his equivalent of Timothy's turn to camera in TLD, it's a perfect introduction
    Goldeneye-0029.jpg

    Agreed! I think the first few minutes of TLD and GE are identical. Down to the black-coloured military clothings of Dalton & Brosnan's Bond. Then both Bonds in a tux early on in the films. Brosnan's full hair and comma like Dalton's...maybe because GE have traces of the 80s, even if it was the 90s.i think it was from TND that Brosnan's era felt full 90s, probably because it was 1997, compared to 1995, which is early 90s.
  • edited February 20 Posts: 4,139
    Yeah, I definitely get a whiff of Dalton’s intro during the PTS of GE. That said I love the fact that Brosnan’s Bond is effectively revealed while upside down in a toilet stall. I think it adds a bit of good old fashioned cinematic Bond humour that Dalton never quite nailed. Plus we have the awesome bungee rope stunt beforehand so it doesn’t come off as flippant.

    Insofar as every Bond’s introduction is distinct (with the exception of Lazenby’s) and gives you an idea of who their Bond is, I think it’s a great one. But then again I think all Bonds have great introductions (again, except for Lazenby, but that’s just my personal opinion).
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited February 20 Posts: 3,789
    007HallY wrote: »
    Yeah, I definitely get a whiff of Dalton’s intro during the PTS of GE. That said I love the fact that Brosnan’s Bond is effectively revealed while upside down in a toilet stall. I think it adds a bit of good old fashioned cinematic Bond humour that Dalton never quite nailed. Plus we have the awesome bungee rope stunt beforehand so it doesn’t come off as flippant.

    Insofar as every Bond’s introduction is distinct (with the exception of Lazenby’s) and gives you an idea of who their Bond is, I think it’s a great one. But then again I think all Bonds have great introductions (again, except for Lazenby, but that’s just my personal opinion).

    Actually in my opinion, Moore's introduction in LALD is even more worse, I don't count TSWLM, as it's his Third film, not his debut.
  • Posts: 4,139
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    Yeah, I definitely get a whiff of Dalton’s intro during the PTS of GE. That said I love the fact that Brosnan’s Bond is effectively revealed while upside down in a toilet stall. I think it adds a bit of good old fashioned cinematic Bond humour that Dalton never quite nailed. Plus we have the awesome bungee rope stunt beforehand so it doesn’t come off as flippant.

    Insofar as every Bond’s introduction is distinct (with the exception of Lazenby’s) and gives you an idea of who their Bond is, I think it’s a great one. But then again I think all Bonds have great introductions (again, except for Lazenby, but that’s just my personal opinion).

    Actually in my opinion, Moore's introduction in LALD is even more worse, I don't count TSWLM, as it's his Third film, not his debut.

    Moore’s introduction is a bit odd in isolation, but at the time I think it was the correct decision. It parallels the broad structure of DN (so that’s to say beginning the film without Bond then showing him doing something in his daily life before being called onto the mission) but it plays to Moore’s comedic abilities. So in essence it felt ‘Bondian’ while also making Moore’s Bond distinct. It’s not dissimilar to what they did with Brosnan’s reveal in this one, at least in spirit.

    We’ve obviously discussed this but I think Lazenby’s introduction is all wrong and never sat right with me. I don’t think it adequately makes Lazenby’s Bond stand out and there’s way too many little nods to Connery which I think was detrimental for him at the time.
  • Posts: 15,117
    Yeah @Ludovico That would have been good. But still, it doesn't stop GoldenEye from being a great Bond film.

    Yeah and I absolutely love it. I think its main "flaw" and missed opportunity is external to it. It's not building upon its strengths and success during the whole Brosnan tenure.
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Something I would change as regards GoldenEye is Alec Trevelyan's motivations for villainy. Either Trevelyan should be played by an older actor (like Anthony Hopkins which was originally considered) or his motivation should be changed to something else. Sean Bean (born in 1959) is too young to have believably have been a child during WWII and the son of Lienz Cossacks. This is one part that should've been rewritten in the script before filming to suit the age of the actor. As it was they left it in and that was a mistake in my opinion. That's my only major issue with GoldenEye.

    It always irked me a bit. He could have been the son of Cossaks survivors?

    Yes, that's what I thought myself. I think Trevelyan said his father killed his mother and then himself because he couldn't live with the shame of being a Lienz Cossack. So I suppose it could have been a while after the war, although I'd concede that even then it would be stretching things a bit. Logically you'd think it'd be something that'd happen at the war's end when Nazi collaborators were thrown to the wolves.

    Isn't it what the movie implies though? Maybe it's just my head canon playing tricks on me, but I always imagined that Trevelyan himself didn't experience Stalin's actions directly.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,270
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Yeah @Ludovico That would have been good. But still, it doesn't stop GoldenEye from being a great Bond film.

    Yeah and I absolutely love it. I think its main "flaw" and missed opportunity is external to it. It's not building upon its strengths and success during the whole Brosnan tenure.
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Something I would change as regards GoldenEye is Alec Trevelyan's motivations for villainy. Either Trevelyan should be played by an older actor (like Anthony Hopkins which was originally considered) or his motivation should be changed to something else. Sean Bean (born in 1959) is too young to have believably have been a child during WWII and the son of Lienz Cossacks. This is one part that should've been rewritten in the script before filming to suit the age of the actor. As it was they left it in and that was a mistake in my opinion. That's my only major issue with GoldenEye.

    It always irked me a bit. He could have been the son of Cossaks survivors?

    Yes, that's what I thought myself. I think Trevelyan said his father killed his mother and then himself because he couldn't live with the shame of being a Lienz Cossack. So I suppose it could have been a while after the war, although I'd concede that even then it would be stretching things a bit. Logically you'd think it'd be something that'd happen at the war's end when Nazi collaborators were thrown to the wolves.

    Isn't it what the movie implies though? Maybe it's just my head canon playing tricks on me, but I always imagined that Trevelyan himself didn't experience Stalin's actions directly.

    Yes, I too think that's what's implied in the film itself. I'd have to recheck the John Gardner GoldenEye film novelisation to see if there's any more detail there, not that it would particularly be canon as Gardner may have added it himself. I know Gardner did add more of a backstory for General Ourumov involving being trapped in a burning tank, so it's certainly possible.
  • SeanoSeano Minnesota. No, it's not always cold.
    Posts: 44
    For a movie where so many of the character bits work so well, the beach conversation between Bond and Natalya before the finale has just never worked for me (for either character).
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited February 21 Posts: 3,789
    The number one missed opportunity of this film is the music, especially the music in the car chase between Bond and Xenia, I don't liked that song, why not have Arnold score this one?

    Serra is just a wrong choice.
  • edited February 21 Posts: 1,340
    Seano wrote: »
    For a movie where so many of the character bits work so well, the beach conversation between Bond and Natalya before the finale has just never worked for me (for either character).

    Natalya never worked IMO. Bond saved her once or twice and she is complaining all the time.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,641
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    The number one missed opportunity of this film is the music, especially the music in the car chase between Bond and Xenia, I don't liked that song, why not have Arnold score this one?

    Serra is just a wrong choice.

    Yep I have to agree with that mate. I can only imagine what David Arnold would have done with Goldeneye
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 2,016
    Natalya is a 90s version of Kara from TLD. She's not a natural action Bond girl, but she's a delight to watch. It's not easy playing a non-action Bond girl or not playing a femme fatale and still succeed at it.
  • I have mixed feelings about Trevelyan's motivations. On one hand, I really like them on paper and they feel directly taken from a Fleming's story. On the other hand, as @Dragonpol said, not only is Sean Bean too young to have believably have been the son of Lienz Cossacks, but there is something paradoxical in seeing this villain feel so comfortable in Russia when the Soviet government was the one responsible for his parents' death. While obviously the Russian government from the 90s was no longer the Soviet State, it is strange to see that Trevelyan is resentful of Britain but not Russia. Especially since one of his main accomplices (Ourumov) is the representative of the old Soviet establishment who aspires to restore an authoritarian state - this also applies to Xenia who, if I'm not mistaken, was described in John Gardner's novelization as having participated in the August 1991 coup attempt led by Soviet hardliners.

    Otherwise, the movie is pretty perfect and one of my favourites of the series. Minor missed opportunities, in my opinion, include the use of the BMW Z3 and not bringing back General Pushkin.
  • edited February 21 Posts: 4,139
    I have mixed feelings about Trevelyan's motivations. On one hand, I really like them on paper and they feel directly taken from a Fleming's story. On the other hand, as @Dragonpol said, not only is Sean Bean too young to have believably have been the son of Lienz Cossacks, but there is something paradoxical in seeing this villain feel so comfortable in Russia when the Soviet government was the one responsible for his parents' death. While obviously the Russian government from the 90s was no longer the Soviet State, it is strange to see that Trevelyan is resentful of Britain but not Russia. Especially since one of his main accomplices (Ourumov) is the representative of the old Soviet establishment who aspires to restore an authoritarian state - this also applies to Xenia who, if I'm not mistaken, was described in John Gardner's novelization as having participated in the August 1991 coup attempt led by Soviet hardliners.

    Otherwise, the movie is pretty perfect and one of my favourites of the series. Minor missed opportunities, in my opinion, include the use of the BMW Z3 and not bringing back General Pushkin.

    Isn't it implied (by Bond at least) that Travelyan is basically going to kill Ourumov once he gets what he wants from him anyway? From what I remember it comes across as if Travelyan hasn't revealed that he's a Lienz Cossack to him before Bond blurts it out. Anyway, I always read it as he was using Ourumov, and as Bond said was going to betray him.
  • edited February 21 Posts: 1,340
    Natalya is a 90s version of Kara from TLD. She's not a natural action Bond girl, but she's a delight to watch. It's not easy playing a non-action Bond girl or not playing a femme fatale and still succeed at it.

    She didn't work IMO. She tries not to be a damsel in distress but it's not realistic at all. She IS a damsel in distress. He saved her life she is ungrateful.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited February 21 Posts: 18,270
    Natalya is a 90s version of Kara from TLD. She's not a natural action Bond girl, but she's a delight to watch. It's not easy playing a non-action Bond girl or not playing a femme fatale and still succeed at it.

    She didn't work IMO. She tries not to be a damsel in distress but it's not realistic at all. She IS a damsel in distress. He saved her live she is ungrateful.

    I think she's just an ordinary person (albeit a government computer programmer) caught up in an extraordinary situation. You can't expect her to act like a professional like Bond who is used to it all already.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,216
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Natalya is a 90s version of Kara from TLD. She's not a natural action Bond girl, but she's a delight to watch. It's not easy playing a non-action Bond girl or not playing a femme fatale and still succeed at it.

    She didn't work IMO. She tries not to be a damsel in distress but it's not realistic at all. She IS a damsel in distress. He saved her live she is ungrateful.

    I think she's just an ordinary person (albeit a government computer programmer) caught up in an extraordinary situation. You can't expect her to act like a professional like Bond who is used to it all already.

    Precisely. She's perfectly judged and the performance is of equal quality.
  • Posts: 4,139
    Natalya is Kara done right I’d say. She actually does stuff independently and has a toughness to her that Kara lacks for me. She’s essentially an ordinary person caught up in a traumatic event, and while it’s clear she doesn’t understand Bond’s world, she’s not childish. She’s just a solid character.
  • SeanoSeano Minnesota. No, it's not always cold.
    Posts: 44
    I get that she's an "ordinary person" but there are still too many contradictions for me. She's seen Trevelyan and his associates kill all of her co-workers, steal 2 nukes (and detonate one of them), and make several attempts to kill her, and she's questioning the idea that Bond is going to go kill him? It wasn't Bond's "coldness" that turned Trevelyan evil (now that would be an idea for a script), Bond was betrayed by Trevelyan. She should get that Trevelyan is unequivocally a bad dude now and needs to be handled, even if he and Bond were friends at one point in the past.
  • edited February 21 Posts: 1,340
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Natalya is a 90s version of Kara from TLD. She's not a natural action Bond girl, but she's a delight to watch. It's not easy playing a non-action Bond girl or not playing a femme fatale and still succeed at it.

    She didn't work IMO. She tries not to be a damsel in distress but it's not realistic at all. She IS a damsel in distress. He saved her live she is ungrateful.

    I think she's just an ordinary person (albeit a government computer programmer) caught up in an extraordinary situation. You can't expect her to act like a professional like Bond who is used to it all already.

    She became another meta character complaining about Bond.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,270
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Natalya is a 90s version of Kara from TLD. She's not a natural action Bond girl, but she's a delight to watch. It's not easy playing a non-action Bond girl or not playing a femme fatale and still succeed at it.

    She didn't work IMO. She tries not to be a damsel in distress but it's not realistic at all. She IS a damsel in distress. He saved her live she is ungrateful.

    I think she's just an ordinary person (albeit a government computer programmer) caught up in an extraordinary situation. You can't expect her to act like a professional like Bond who is used to it all already.

    She became another meta character complaining about Bond.

    It was fairly mild in this film though and more of an attempt to add some drama into the proceedings. I think it's fairly innocuous and not something that the film keeps coming back to.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited February 21 Posts: 3,789
    She complains to Bond because:

    1. She didn't trusted him.

    2. Bond's always bringing her in trouble and danger, she's one of the very few Bond Girls who felt real to confront Bond's nature of work, she didn't enjoyed it, for some, it's some sort of adventure, not for Natalya, it just showed that Bond's work isn't enjoyable or fun adventure, it's dangerous, if you're caught in Bond's world, you wouldn't liked it either, it's the same with Stacey Sutton shouting and screaming, she's caught in the danger, and her situation and the way she reacted to it just showed how dangerous was Bond's world, Natalya is Stacey Sutton 2.0 without the screaming, I don't see any comparison to Kara, she's not a pawn, nor she's not gullible or at the hands of the villains (Kara was Koskov's girlfriend), and Kara enjoyed being in Bond's world, she'd enjoyed being involved in a fight in the Afghanistan, she enjoyed the danger of Bond's world and looked at it as fun adventure, Natalya wasn't, for me, Natalya is what Stacey Sutton should've been.

    Seano wrote: »
    I get that she's an "ordinary person" but there are still too many contradictions for me. She's seen Trevelyan and his associates kill all of her co-workers, steal 2 nukes (and detonate one of them), and make several attempts to kill her, and she's questioning the idea that Bond is going to go kill him? It wasn't Bond's "coldness" that turned Trevelyan evil (now that would be an idea for a script), Bond was betrayed by Trevelyan. She should get that Trevelyan is unequivocally a bad dude now and needs to be handled, even if he and Bond were friends at one point in the past.

    You may have a reason here, but what Natalya was saying, her perspective was, it doesn't need to be violent, maybe Trevelyan could be penalized but not in the form of killing him, Natalya may be a Pacifist, she hates violence and killing.

    That's why Madeleine Swann kinda evoked this later on in SPECTRE with her questioning Bond's job, she knows about Blofeld being Bond's step brother, she knows that Blofeld was the big villain, but why she's still questioning his line of work? Look at the ending, he's in the midst of killing Blofeld, but instead, he had left Blofeld to the hands of authorities to arrest him.

    That's what Natalya was saying, she's questioning Bond's coldness to kill an old friend and his feelings about it, like what does he feel? Doesn't he feel anything about killing an old friend without a remorse, it's a matter of morality and consciousness.

    Although it's an out of character for Natalya, because Madeleine questioning Bond about it was reasonable as she's a psychiatrist, but Natalya was a computer programmer, how did she had an idea to ask Bond such a question? Seemed out of character for her.
  • edited February 21 Posts: 1,340
    It's not Bond's world... it's her world!

    People try to kill her. Bond is a stranger who saves her.

    She doesn't act like a normal person. She acts like a bond girl tired of being a bond girl.
  • edited February 21 Posts: 4,139
    Well remember, from Natalya's perspective she's been held at gunpoint and has had Bond say 'kill her, she means nothing to me'. Again, she's not a part of Bond or Travelyan's world. That level of coldness, that cyclical nature of killing, and indeed that bravado is not even alien to her but horrifying after her experiences. She does have a character arc of sorts though when she returns the 'kill him, he means nothing to me' and able to put up that front/use it to come into her own. If I recall correctly she's the one who manages to destroy the Goldeneye satellite.

    Again, it's why I think she's such an interesting character. She comes into her own throughout the film. She also has a nice parallel with Bond in the sense that like Bond/Travelyan having a past which involves betrayal, her and Boris have that too (and I suspect during the beach moment her immediate thought is she would rather him be brought to justice than killing him, which maybe informs what she says to Bond. That or it's the trauma of witnessing all her friends being killed. Perhaps that Boris parallel could have been highlighted a bit more, but it works as it is).
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 2,016
    It's not Bond's world... it's her world!

    People try to kill her. Bond is a stranger who save her.

    She doesn't act like a normal person. She acts like a bond girl tired of being a bond girl.

    Wow! If I'm correct, this is your longest post. It seems Natalya really piqued your interest. So more Natalya and more longer posts from you =D>
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,270
    It's not Bond's world... it's her world!

    People try to kill her. Bond is a stranger who save her.

    She doesn't act like a normal person. She acts like a bond girl tired of being a bond girl.

    Wow! If I'm correct, this is your longest post. It seems Natalya really piqued your interest. So more Natalya and more longer posts from you =D>

    His mantra is a little less conversation. ;)
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 2,016
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    It's not Bond's world... it's her world!

    People try to kill her. Bond is a stranger who save her.

    She doesn't act like a normal person. She acts like a bond girl tired of being a bond girl.

    Wow! If I'm correct, this is your longest post. It seems Natalya really piqued your interest. So more Natalya and more longer posts from you =D>

    His mantra is a little less conversation. ;)

    Oh, true. The laconic one :)
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,641
    I love Natalya, she's top 3 Bond girls for me
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited February 22 Posts: 3,789
    It's not Bond's world... it's her world!

    People try to kill her. Bond is a stranger who saves her.

    She doesn't act like a normal person. She acts like a bond girl tired of being a bond girl.

    Natalya is the one who had been involved in Bond's mission:

    She's an innocent programmer, and the one who had been a mastermind of her troubles was Trevelyan, who's connected to Bond, even Ourumov, the people who attacked Severnaya are all connected to Bond, because they've had a confrontation with Bond beforehand, in the PTS, and the mission wasn't finished yet, Bond failed to kill Ourumov, and messed up the mission more when they've (fake) killed Trevelyan in front of him, and Bond just made his escape, and this is Bond, just cleaning his own mess from a failed mission, he's not done yet, now Natalya, she's the one who had got involved in Bond's unfinished mission, she's just happened to work in Severnaya and because she's one of the survivors of the destruction of the Satellite and could be used as an asset, so Bond made an afterthought to involve her in his mission, but he could've made an option not to involve her, but Ourumov and the villains were out to kill Natalya because she's the witness to what happened in the Severnaya Satellite, Natalya's involvement was optional for Bond, because he could've finished the mission without Natalya, although she's a big help in disabling Goldeneye, but really, her involvement was more of Bond's decision to protect her.

    I don't actually see a problem in Natalya, actually she's less complicated (and questionable) than Vesper.
  • edited March 8 Posts: 15,117
    Natalya is a 90s version of Kara from TLD. She's not a natural action Bond girl, but she's a delight to watch. It's not easy playing a non-action Bond girl or not playing a femme fatale and still succeed at it.

    I prefer non-action Bond girls, personally.
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Natalya is a 90s version of Kara from TLD. She's not a natural action Bond girl, but she's a delight to watch. It's not easy playing a non-action Bond girl or not playing a femme fatale and still succeed at it.

    She didn't work IMO. She tries not to be a damsel in distress but it's not realistic at all. She IS a damsel in distress. He saved her live she is ungrateful.

    I think she's just an ordinary person (albeit a government computer programmer) caught up in an extraordinary situation. You can't expect her to act like a professional like Bond who is used to it all already.

    I think Bond girls that are outsiders to the world of espionage work better. And they are more Flemingesque.
  • M_BaljeM_Balje Amsterdam, Netherlands
    Posts: 4,516
    The movie end with another satelite...

    Tomorrow-Never-Dies-0179.jpg

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