"You missed Mister Bond!"..."Did I?"...The Missed Opportunities of Never Say Never Again

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  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,271
    M_Balje wrote: »
    The movie end with another satelite...

    Tomorrow-Never-Dies-0179.jpg

    ?appId=21791a8992982cd8da851550a453bd7f&quality=0.8

    No satellite TV? That would be the real tragedy!
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    Posts: 3,789
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Natalya is a 90s version of Kara from TLD. She's not a natural action Bond girl, but she's a delight to watch. It's not easy playing a non-action Bond girl or not playing a femme fatale and still succeed at it.

    I prefer non-action Bond girls, personally.
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Natalya is a 90s version of Kara from TLD. She's not a natural action Bond girl, but she's a delight to watch. It's not easy playing a non-action Bond girl or not playing a femme fatale and still succeed at it.

    She didn't work IMO. She tries not to be a damsel in distress but it's not realistic at all. She IS a damsel in distress. He saved her live she is ungrateful.

    I think she's just an ordinary person (albeit a government computer programmer) caught up in an extraordinary situation. You can't expect her to act like a professional like Bond who is used to it all already.

    I think Bond girls that are outsiderscto the world of espionage work better. And they are more Flemingesque.
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Natalya is a 90s version of Kara from TLD. She's not a natural action Bond girl, but she's a delight to watch. It's not easy playing a non-action Bond girl or not playing a femme fatale and still succeed at it.

    I prefer non-action Bond girls, personally.
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Natalya is a 90s version of Kara from TLD. She's not a natural action Bond girl, but she's a delight to watch. It's not easy playing a non-action Bond girl or not playing a femme fatale and still succeed at it.

    She didn't work IMO. She tries not to be a damsel in distress but it's not realistic at all. She IS a damsel in distress. He saved her live she is ungrateful.

    I think she's just an ordinary person (albeit a government computer programmer) caught up in an extraordinary situation. You can't expect her to act like a professional like Bond who is used to it all already.

    I think Bond girls that are outsiderscto the world of espionage work better. And they are more Flemingesque.

    Yes, actually those action Bond Girls tend to be a damsel in the end (even Wai Lin), but Natalya, she may not be an action girl, but she's the one who had saved Bond's life in the end, look at Tracy, and even Tatiana who had shot Klebb dead.

    I mean those Bond Girls inside of Espionage tends to be disappointing, with an exception of Holly Goodhead (she's the only agent who had really got it right), but the rest? Anya Amasova? Mary Goodnight? Wai Lin had her moves but the third act relegated her to a damsel (really how she couldn't able to save herself from being chained underwater for all the toughness that she had shown earlier?) And yes, Jinx.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,426
    Great discussion about Goldeneye and it's missed opportunities. Although a great movie there seems to be some thoughts around the leading lady and the age of the villain.

    Time to move forward to the next film! Tomorrow Never Dies. Fresh off the success of Goldeneye the producers went into production of the next film. Tomorrow Never Dies was somewhat rushed to production. A script wasn't completed when filming began. This film has some interesting plot points but there doesn't seem to be a better movie, or maybe a movie with less missed opportunities lurking.

    What are the missed opportunities of Pierce Brosnan's second Bond film?

    tomorrow_never_dies_1997_original_film_art_2000x.jpg?v=1558075518

    A missed opportunity is a plot point that leads no where, a character that is under developed, a soundtrack miss, or the way the film is directed.

    This film at times feels like a shoot them up. Bond dispatches of lots of the bad guys here and usually with a machine gun. The producers corrected this for the next film, but was this a missed opportunity?
  • edited February 23 Posts: 5,993
    They have Jonathan Pryce, part of the movie takes place in VietNam, and they don't take the opportunity to make a Miss Saigon joke ? The scriptwriters don't seem to be fans of musicals.
  • Posts: 15,117
    thedove wrote: »
    Great discussion about Goldeneye and it's missed opportunities. Although a great movie there seems to be some thoughts around the leading lady and the age of the villain.

    Time to move forward to the next film! Tomorrow Never Dies. Fresh off the success of Goldeneye the producers went into production of the next film. Tomorrow Never Dies was somewhat rushed to production. A script wasn't completed when filming began. This film has some interesting plot points but there doesn't seem to be a better movie, or maybe a movie with less missed opportunities lurking.

    What are the missed opportunities of Pierce Brosnan's second Bond film?

    tomorrow_never_dies_1997_original_film_art_2000x.jpg?v=1558075518

    A missed opportunity is a plot point that leads no where, a character that is under developed, a soundtrack miss, or the way the film is directed.

    This film at times feels like a shoot them up. Bond dispatches of lots of the bad guys here and usually with a machine gun. The producers corrected this for the next film, but was this a missed opportunity?

    Overall I find the film underwhelming, bit nothing is terrible per se. I wish they'd do something else than evil businessmen sometimes. They had finally made a villain that belonged to the world of espionage in GE, only to go back to evil tycoons with TND. That said I like Jonathan Pryce.

    Other missed opportunity, maybe the main ome for me: Paris Carver. Her past relationship with Bond seems to exist only so he can bed her faster. Then she dies and we'll, that's it.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    Posts: 3,789
    Wai Lin, why she made a trajectory turn of 360 angle and turned into a damsel in distress in the end, especially after the kicks that she had shown, like how in the world she couldn't set herself free from an underwater chain?

    The plot of Fake News to start a World War is interesting, but it's not fleshed out enough.

    Paris Carver is definitely a missed opportunity, she was supposed to be Bond's old flame, but the interaction between her and Bond never showed any depth to be believable.
  • I don’t really mind Jonathan Pryce in the movie, he works well enough imo. But I also think that someone like Anthony Hopkins would’ve done much better conveying the madness behind Carver and his scheme.

    Another point is that while the film is action packed and moves at a brisk pace, it’s lacking the hard hitting edge that Goldeneye had. Overall though TND has jumped up in my estimations quite a bit because it’s always such a fun joyride.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,790
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    Wai Lin, why she made a trajectory turn of 360 angle and turned into a damsel in distress in the end, especially after the kicks that she had shown, like how in the world she couldn't set herself free from an underwater chain?

    To allow 007 to give underwater mouth-to-mouth resuscitation of course.

    I do like this movie fine.

  • Posts: 4,139
    Poor Ricky Jay having all his card tricks edited out is probably a big one (I mean, Gupta’s pretty bland, but they could have at least kept one scene of him throwing cards or at least integrated it into the script better. I dunno, I can imagine him using special razor lined cards as a weapon or something… perhaps a bit silly, but still).

    Other than that, it’s probably not incorporating General Chang into the film much more (he’s such a major part of Carver’s plan and yet we only see him in a hallway. I feel we’re missing a couple of scenes where those two men talk about this plan or something).
  • Part of me regrets that the film was made so late and that we missed a plot revolving around the handover of Hong Kong. Donald Westlake's original draft was seemingly pretty solid and It’s a shame it wasn’t translated to the big screen. For this to happen, I guess GoldenEye would have had to be released sooner (in 1993 or in 1994 I guess), which means Dalton could have returned, making an earlier TND Brosnan's debut in the role.

    As @007HallY wrote, not incorporating General Chang is a missed opportunity and it reminds me of General Han from Davis and Osborne's Bond 17 script: in both cases the character is central in the plot, being supposed to lead the coup to take power in China for the benefit of the main antagonist; but, in both case, he is barely present. I understand that in both cases the writers considered such character to be a plot tool and nothing more, but I think it's a missed opportunity.

    A more major missed opportunity is the character of Paris Carver herself. In my opinion, she should have been Bond's only romantic partner in the film, while the relationship with Wai Lin should have only been platonic. In this context, Paris Carver should have been more developed. Bringing back an old flame for Bond was a brilliant idea and it was quite underdeveloped.
  • edited February 24 Posts: 1,340
    TND works better as "the third Dalton movie" than GE. More action and bigger budget help.

    Anyway, the biggest issue is Paris. She is not likeable and you don't care about her.
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    edited February 24 Posts: 2,016
    Tomorrow Never Dies's fault is, it's too Bondian. That's its only missed opportunity...and I happen to like such missed opportunities B-)
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    edited February 24 Posts: 7,582
    I would say that TND only needs a few quieter minutes either side of the motorbike/helicopter chase. Maybe an extension of the potential torture scene which never actually happened. Considering the film came in at slightly under 2 hours there was a clear opportunity to either reduce a couple of action sequences or add an extended dialogue scene. Even the scenes immediately before the two agents head off in search of the stealth boat, there was an opportunity for another scene watching them eat and discuss the mission. Anything to slow the pace down before the loud climax.
    Otherwise this is my favourite Brosnan Bond.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,383
    Nice to see you NicNac.
  • slide_99slide_99 USA
    Posts: 693
    After Bond finds the encoder midway through to confirm what the audience already knows, the only plot point after that is Carver's reason for doing what he's doing (nuking Beijing and installing a new government). There just isn't all that much happening in the second half of the movie apart from endless machine gun fire.

    I'd redo it like this: instead of the bland shoot-em-up on Carver's ship, Bond and Wei Lin are actually in Beijing so the nuke is a direct threat to them. Bond does something clever with Carver's media network, like broadcast some embarrassing footage of him to the world that ruins his reputation. Meanwhile somebody else (Q or Wei Lin?) manages to redirect the nuke and send it back to Carver's ship, killing him just as he's giving some kind of speech, so he ironically livestreams his own death.
  • Posts: 5,993
    Too similar to TSWLM, or to MR (the novel). People would notice (I'm talking the audience here). The series is already guilty enough of reusing the same plot points over the years. IMO, of course.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    I'd redo it like this: instead of the bland shoot-em-up on Carver's ship, Bond and Wei Lin are actually in Beijing so the nuke is a direct threat to them. Bond does something clever with Carver's media network, like broadcast some embarrassing footage of him to the world that ruins his reputation. Meanwhile somebody else (Q or Wei Lin?) manages to redirect the nuke and send it back to Carver's ship, killing him just as he's giving some kind of speech, so he ironically livestreams his own death.
    Quote

    I’ve really been hard on @slide_99 re: NTTD, and judging a film one hasn’t seen from beginning to end, but, I like this idea. A lot.

    I thought the last act of TND was annoying, loud, and cheesy-action with the machine gun play (I did, however, enjoy the film up until meeting Wade and the jump from the plane; it was my favourite Brosnan Bond up until that point);

    @slide_99 just came up with a third act for this film that I’d love to see. This is a fun (and ironic) way of ending TND. Love this idea…
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited February 24 Posts: 16,383
    slide_99 wrote: »
    After Bond finds the encoder midway through to confirm what the audience already knows, the only plot point after that is Carver's reason for doing what he's doing (nuking Beijing and installing a new government). There just isn't all that much happening in the second half of the movie apart from endless machine gun fire.

    I'd redo it like this: instead of the bland shoot-em-up on Carver's ship, Bond and Wei Lin are actually in Beijing so the nuke is a direct threat to them. Bond does something clever with Carver's media network, like broadcast some embarrassing footage of him to the world that ruins his reputation. Meanwhile somebody else (Q or Wei Lin?) manages to redirect the nuke and send it back to Carver's ship, killing him just as he's giving some kind of speech, so he ironically livestreams his own death.

    That's really lovely; great stuff. The media mogul concept of TND is so good it almost feels thrown away- a more ironic climax would be amazing, I love it. I've not thought of that before but it's perfect.

    Redirecting the nuke threat is great too- for me that's what Thunderball got wrong. If there's a nuke, Bond should be under it. Just my opinion, I don't think that's the correct or only one.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,795
    NicNac wrote: »
    I would say that TND only needs a few quieter minutes either side of the motorbike/helicopter chase. Maybe an extension of the potential torture scene which never actually happened. Considering the film came in at slightly under 2 hours there was a clear opportunity to either reduce a couple of action sequences or add an extended dialogue scene. Even the scenes immediately before the two agents head off in search of the stealth boat, there was an opportunity for another scene watching them eat and discuss the mission. Anything to slow the pace down before the loud climax.
    Otherwise this is my favourite Brosnan Bond.

    I concur.
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 2,016
    slide_99 wrote: »
    After Bond finds the encoder midway through to confirm what the audience already knows, the only plot point after that is Carver's reason for doing what he's doing (nuking Beijing and installing a new government). There just isn't all that much happening in the second half of the movie apart from endless machine gun fire.

    I'd redo it like this: instead of the bland shoot-em-up on Carver's ship, Bond and Wei Lin are actually in Beijing so the nuke is a direct threat to them. Bond does something clever with Carver's media network, like broadcast some embarrassing footage of him to the world that ruins his reputation. Meanwhile somebody else (Q or Wei Lin?) manages to redirect the nuke and send it back to Carver's ship, killing him just as he's giving some kind of speech, so he ironically livestreams his own death.

    Brilliant! Brilliant idea! It would have worked better today, though. But in the 90s when audiences wanted plenty of action scenes for the climax, the idea could have easily affected the box office, even if the critical reception would have been great.
  • M_BaljeM_Balje Amsterdam, Netherlands
    Posts: 4,516
    Also including end credits over movie footage.


    Goldeneye


    Octopussy
  • Posts: 15,117
    NicNac wrote: »
    I would say that TND only needs a few quieter minutes either side of the motorbike/helicopter chase. Maybe an extension of the potential torture scene which never actually happened. Considering the film came in at slightly under 2 hours there was a clear opportunity to either reduce a couple of action sequences or add an extended dialogue scene. Even the scenes immediately before the two agents head off in search of the stealth boat, there was an opportunity for another scene watching them eat and discuss the mission. Anything to slow the pace down before the loud climax.
    Otherwise this is my favourite Brosnan Bond.

    Yes. There's too much action and not enough (not any?) quiet moments.

    Oh and how could I forget: Tomorrow Never Lies is a much better title.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    edited February 25 Posts: 4,629
    Ludovico wrote: »
    NicNac wrote: »
    I would say that TND only needs a few quieter minutes either side of the motorbike/helicopter chase. Maybe an extension of the potential torture scene which never actually happened. Considering the film came in at slightly under 2 hours there was a clear opportunity to either reduce a couple of action sequences or add an extended dialogue scene. Even the scenes immediately before the two agents head off in search of the stealth boat, there was an opportunity for another scene watching them eat and discuss the mission. Anything to slow the pace down before the loud climax.
    Otherwise this is my favourite Brosnan Bond.

    Yes. There's too much action and not enough (not any?) quiet moments.

    Oh and how could I forget: Tomorrow Never Lies is a much better title.

    I agree about Lies being a better title. More original, but still feels Bond like. Also, have Q take Jack Wade’s place. Less awkward, but the humor could easily be adapting for Q’s personality.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,297
    Gerard wrote: »
    They have Jonathan Pryce, part of the movie takes place in VietNam, and they don't take the opportunity to make a Miss Saigon joke ? The scriptwriters don't seem to be fans of musicals.

    +1
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,426
    Good stuff guys! Great discussion about a movie that has some great points, but also has missed opportunities.

    Let us turn attention to the next Brosnan adventure. Based on feedback of TND feeling more like a shoot em up and less a Bond film we have a change of tack. Gone are endless machine gun battles. We have Bond with a bum shoulder, we have an extended PTS, we have a villainess for the first time in the series. We have a film that has more story and less action.

    the-world-is-not-enough-movie-poster.jpg?v=1456556522

    But for all that we have, do we have missed opportunities?

    What are the missed opportunities of The World Is Not Enough?

    Reminder that missed opportunities are un-developed character arcs, a poor soundtrack, a storyline that doesn't have a good pay-off, etc.

    Lets talk about the missed opportunities of TWINE?
  • edited March 1 Posts: 4,139
    Not casting Javier Bardem, or Jean Reno, or an actor like this for Renard. Carlyle’s a great character actor and plays the psychotic Begbie in Trainspotting well, but he’s completely miscast here. Renard should be this agent of chaos, a man who is struck down in his prime by a bullet that’ll eventually kill him. You need an actor with a level of charisma and magnetism alongside that menace/mania. We need to believe that Ekektra could fall for and be seduced by such a man. And yes, I do understand it’s revealed later that she’s playing him, but I think it’s more impactful with a more charismatic villain and makes that revelation more interesting. That and Carlyle's performance, a bit like Brosnan’s, becomes hammy and embarrassing as the film goes on. In my opinion anyway.

    Other than that, setting up Renard’s inability to feel pain and not using it in the fight against Bond at the end is another disappointment. The idea of Bond battling someone much stronger than him is great, and this trait could have been used against Renard in order for Bond to ultimately kill him.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,297
    Great title, great song, great actress in Marceau.

    Literally everything else is a missed opportunity. Much like AVTAK.
  • Posts: 15,117
    Renard is the greatest misses opportunity of TWINE and on so many levels. He's build up as a crypto-Bane, someone only motivated by bringing chaos, psychotic, completely unafraid and, given that he cannot feel pain,,extremely dangerous. But he's turned into a henchman, for one (although it's muddled up in the movie, so much so that Apted had to specify in interviews that Elektra was the main villain, his invulnerability is never truly depicted and, as much as I love Carlyle as an actor, in a fist fight against the much larger Brosnan he doesn't come off as very believable as as formidable adversary. Had he been a more nihilistic villain, he might have worked better. But in the end, I can't help but feel that TWINE is TDKR done wrong.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    Posts: 3,789
    Renard was mentioned, so I'm going to point out the other missed opportunities:

    The character of Christmas Jones, could've been written and acted better, this is the main one.

    The emotional aspect of the film, I think the relationship of Bond and Elektra like seeing the second version of Tracy wasn't fleshed out very well, and Elektra's villain turn is obviously I've smelt from the start, I know she's greatly acted, but the character is more like Kristatos for me, too many signposting, and we still didn't get to know her very much, so her relationship with Bond or her connection with Renard was not well understood, it all happened and came out of nowhere.

    The plot in general, it's an interesting plot about monopolizing oil, but still comes off as convoluted and not very well written.
  • Posts: 4,139
    I suppose another missed opportunity is not doing more with Bond’s ‘shouldaar’ injury. It’s relatively inconsequential apart from a way for Bond to clock that Renard is working with Elektra and is seemingly forgotten about. It could have been interesting seeing Bond’s confidence knocked from having failed his mission and not being at his best physically. It could also have paid off if Bond had been beaten by Renard during their first encounter due to the injury, with him messing things up by going in too hard and pushing himself, only for him to beat him at the end by using his wits, perhaps using Renard’s lack of pain against him (sounds very TDKR, although I’m not always sure if Batman is that much more measured during his last fight with Bane or if he just gets lucky by knocking his mask… this could have been better in that sense).

    TWINE is such a weird film. I really love all the ideas there, and it could have made a great Bond film, but for various reasons it falls apart. It’s why I’m glad we have SF - all of TWINE’s best ideas are readapted into action which feels more even, consistent, and Bondian.
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