"You missed Mister Bond!"..."Did I?"...The Missed Opportunities of Never Say Never Again

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  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    edited March 11 Posts: 2,016
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    Casual Bond fans are huge fans of the more outlandish Bond films. It's only us, Bond fans that detect the excesses. To this day, a lot of people around the world still prefer DAD to CR. Maybe us, Bond fans are being too hard on ourselves.

    Dont think so!
    DAD and CR are worlds apart in terms of quality!
    Its no surprise that DAD still remains bottom of most peoples lists!

    Sure. But most casual Bond fans I know find CR too character-driven. They want Bond in action more often. But sure, CR is better than DAD.
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 2,016
    007HallY wrote: »
    To be fair I don’t think DAD was quite the failure a lot of us Bond fans see it as. It’s not many people’s favourite Bond film, and its excesses were noticed at the time, but it was a relatively successful film, at least financially.

    That said I think the majority of people prefer CR.

    I think Bond has always being outlandish. But the outlandish element reached its zenith in DAD, not that the film wasn't successful. Also, DAD is the reason the producers are afraid to do more flashy things with Bond. But aside from his distinctive style, Bond gained fame and more fans around the world because of his display of clever gadgets. In some Bond films, this clever gadgets are used sparingly and effectively. In some, the gadgets are overblown. DAD unfortunately falls under the latter.
  • Posts: 4,139
    007HallY wrote: »
    To be fair I don’t think DAD was quite the failure a lot of us Bond fans see it as. It’s not many people’s favourite Bond film, and its excesses were noticed at the time, but it was a relatively successful film, at least financially.

    That said I think the majority of people prefer CR.

    I think Bond has always being outlandish. But the outlandish element reached its zenith in DAD, not that the film wasn't successful. Also, DAD is the reason the producers are afraid to do more flashy things with Bond. But aside from his distinctive style, Bond gained fame and more fans around the world because of his display of clever gadgets. In some Bond films, this clever gadgets are used sparingly and effectively. In some, the gadgets are overblown. DAD unfortunately falls under the latter.

    It’s definitely a film which influenced the direction of later films. It’s actually not something you can say about a lot of Bond films.
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 2,016
    007HallY wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    To be fair I don’t think DAD was quite the failure a lot of us Bond fans see it as. It’s not many people’s favourite Bond film, and its excesses were noticed at the time, but it was a relatively successful film, at least financially.

    That said I think the majority of people prefer CR.

    I think Bond has always being outlandish. But the outlandish element reached its zenith in DAD, not that the film wasn't successful. Also, DAD is the reason the producers are afraid to do more flashy things with Bond. But aside from his distinctive style, Bond gained fame and more fans around the world because of his display of clever gadgets. In some Bond films, this clever gadgets are used sparingly and effectively. In some, the gadgets are overblown. DAD unfortunately falls under the latter.

    It’s definitely a film which influenced the direction of later films. It’s actually not something you can say about a lot of Bond films.

    Yeah.
  • Posts: 1,340
    007HallY wrote: »
    To be fair I don’t think DAD was quite the failure a lot of us Bond fans see it as. It’s not many people’s favourite Bond film, and its excesses were noticed at the time, but it was a relatively successful film, at least financially.

    That said I think the majority of people prefer CR.

    I think Bond has always being outlandish. But the outlandish element reached its zenith in DAD, not that the film wasn't successful. Also, DAD is the reason the producers are afraid to do more flashy things with Bond. But aside from his distinctive style, Bond gained fame and more fans around the world because of his display of clever gadgets. In some Bond films, this clever gadgets are used sparingly and effectively. In some, the gadgets are overblown. DAD unfortunately falls under the latter.

    DAD is too outlandish for Brosnan but not for Bond. We have Moonraker after all.

    The Brosnan formula had limits that was the problem.
  • As stupid as DAD is at times, that’s really the biggest sin to that movie imo. It’s not one of my favorites, and after doing a marathon of the entire series it’s sitting in my bottom 5; but I had more fun with DAD than I had with the likes of DAF, TMWTGG, QOS, and SPECTRE, all of which I think are worse films in fact.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,297
    When you have Bond surfing (twice), an invisible car, John Cleese, and callbacks that take you out of the movie every five minutes, you've clearly gone in the wrong direction.
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    edited March 11 Posts: 14,571
    Gala Brand - not that I was aware of who that character was, at the time. They were serious about this, the name was on documents. Having said that, I'm glad Brand didn't make the cut - she deserved a story and character closer to MR.

    Also, Miranda as MI6 agent #69, and having a silver PPK that didn't make it into the film.

    M: "Can you handle this assignment, 0069?"
    0069: "I'm on top of it."

    Exploring Bond's trauma after the imprisonment. This is a big issue for some. Bond recovers too quickly after 14 months in Pyongyang. At least show Bond doing the job professionally, but behind closed doors he's suffering from PTSD or similar and barely holding it together. This would've been a very different film.

    Better dialogue. Opportunity for more interesting and mature dialogue between characters. The constant pun-ning IMO is the films' biggest crime, over CGI and wacky plot.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,426
    Could we say that like Moore's run, Brosnan's movies tended to get bigger and bigger until there was no option but to ground it back to the basics. Moore got the chance to play in a grounded Bond, Brosnan was un-ceremonially tossed aside and never got the chance at a grounded Bond.

    Back on thread topic, I would say that the missed opportunity is the aftershocks of Bond's capture and torture. Even having M sending him on a soft mission that turns out to be a larger and harder mission than first appeared might have been interesting territory to mine. I am thinking of DN in the novels, the of course YOLT where M sends Bond out thinking it will be an easy mission and it turns into something far more difficult or challenging than was anticipated.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,426
    As always some very good points raised and some missed opportunities with this film.

    Time to move on to our next film and the first to star Mr. Daniel Craig! I am talking about the wonderful reboot Casino Royale. For many this is a strong entry in the series, many putting it in the top of their rankings. Critics loved this movie at the time of release.

    But I have to ask, were there missed opportunities with this film? We kept the same M as the previous films, should Daniel got his own M? The script adds to the plot of the novel with several set pieces and subplots added. There is also the fact that we changed from a game of Chemin De Fer or was it Baccarat to Texas 5 card poker. Would any of these result in a missed opportunity?

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    A reminder that a missed opportunity is not a critique of the film per se. This is where we discuss plotlines that didn't pay off, casting choices, etc.

    What are the missed opportunities of Casino Royale?

  • M_BaljeM_Balje Amsterdam, Netherlands
    edited March 15 Posts: 4,516
    What are the missed opportunities of Bond 21

    Pierce Brosnan get 5th movie in 2005. Backslash of Die Another Day was very painful with let us waiting til 14 October 2004 when he confirmd he is out. Hazardstuff said is very good about pissing off Bondfans. The lyrics of Billie Eilish her song about ''falling twice for a lie'' remember me a bit to this too, was this first lie and is the end of NTTD second lie ?.

    From Pierce Brosnan there saying for a long time he will return but don't and from Daniel Craig there saying he is not coming back. I believe and with me a lot of others that Pierce will return in Bond 21, even after he said not coming back stil have hope till producers in July 2005 confirming Daniel Craig. The Reasen was that Pierce himself was upset also. I will no saying with so much words Daniel Craig wil return for Bond 26 as i expect Brosnan going to be in Bond 21. But just as option or at least some part of story.

    Brosnan liked it to play Bond and liked to talk with media, who later on stil let him fall. From Daniel Craig in first place you can't say is fan of talking with them. Whyle later on it looks like was part of the game.

    2004 was difficult year for Barbara Broccoli because her mother Dana died on 29 February 2004 that this year 2024 be 20 years a go.

    I wanted Clive Owen as follow up of Brosnan for his first movie in 2008 minimal. Because even there be discussions about Brosnan for 6th movie. Funny fact when Bond 23 was confirmd as Skyfall it turn out i was very close in my fanart with Owen and talk about Skyfall in some CR/QOS talk. There should have not wait longer with Bond 25 as No Time To Die and another member was a bit earlier with talking about a directer who turn out (second choose) directer of NTTD. Some other people wish Christopher Waltz as Blofeld. And i don't complane that 3 big things i wish actually happend. Mads Mikkelsen in CR and was first who suggest Sam Smith and Billie Eilish. As bonus her brother is from 3007 too.

    As Casino Royale:

    I watched Casino Royale on 24 January 2007 and almoost missing it. As positive result i have seen it in year with 007 in it. The movie should in general in January or in November 2007. Whyle les time made QOS creatieve there can released QOS in 2010. With 2006, QOS should be released in 2009.

    I don't buy the love between Bond and Vesper and take till the second view of QOS in March 2010 i understand the way of him to her a little. QOS not going about revenge but about how deal with it (that he been betrayed by her).
  • Posts: 4,139
    I really can’t say there are any missed opportunities. Honestly, changing the game from Baccarat to poker makes absolutely no difference to me as I still have no idea how either of these games work, and really couldn’t care less. I’m able to understand the basics of what’s going on in the film, same as in the novel.

    Same for them not using Vesper’s death from the novel. Or even doing anything different than the finale we got. I think for a film this was the best version they could have went with.

    It’s a film that has its flaws (the dialogue is genuinely very silly at times). But it’s still a great film. So no, no missed opportunities.
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    edited March 16 Posts: 2,016
    I've always wanted the car chase to be a proper car chase, when Vesper was abducted. But of course, the ending of Bond narrowly missing her on the road, with his car flipping, still ends the chase, even with a longer car chase.
  • Posts: 15,117
    007HallY wrote: »
    I really can’t say there are any missed opportunities. Honestly, changing the game from Baccarat to poker makes absolutely no difference to me as I still have no idea how either of these games work, and really couldn’t care less. I’m able to understand the basics of what’s going on in the film, same as in the novel.

    Same for them not using Vesper’s death from the novel. Or even doing anything different than the finale we got. I think for a film this was the best version they could have went with.

    It’s a film that has its flaws (the dialogue is genuinely very silly at times). But it’s still a great film. So no, no missed opportunities.

    Same here. I don't think there is any true missed opportunity in CR.
  • I do have a complaint about Vesper's death: I don't feel the impactfulness of her death as a suicide: instead, she just didn't allow herself to be saved.
    This doesn't have to be necessarily the novel's ending; you could have Bond go out and have Vesper stay in the hotel and take Gettler in, before Bond nervously realises that Gettler was following them and then he rushes back to their hotel before fighting Gettler outside the hotel room, and then when he enters, he realises Vesper has killed herself. Something like that keeps the twist of Vesper's death and betrayal, but still has the climactic confrontation with the non-dead henchman (instead of Gettler, the bald henchman we see with Le Chiffre could do).
    Not exactly a missed opportunity, but an alternate opportunity: the mood of the novel. CR, alongside YOLT, are the novels with the most prominent mood and atmosphere throughout the novel. The film feels grand and Bondian, but perhaps lacks a bit of tension that novel has (but still comes out brilliantly).
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,641
    I can't think of anything, apart from Bond saying "cell phone" at the end of the film
  • Posts: 1,340
    Tarantino's Casino Royale.
  • slide_99slide_99 USA
    Posts: 693
    They should have recast M.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,629
    slide_99 wrote: »
    They should have recast M.

    Yes. Other than that, not really many missed opportunities in the movie. Maybe the cane gun.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,426
    I agree that a new M would have made it a more cleanly defined era and set of films to Craig. Keeping Dench somewhat brings Brosnan's character into effect. However the re-casting might have lead to SF having a different plot or the death of M lacking the impact that Judi's character had in the film.
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 2,016
    I think Dench's M was kept to help cement Craig's Bond, because even if Barbara believed in Craig, inside of her, she knew Brosnan's era was commercially successful. So she needed something from his era to help further secure Craig's Bond debut. The same would have happened for Bond 7 to help him too, if Craig's Bond wasn't killed. Ben Whishaw and Ralph Fiennes would have worked with Bond 7....something a lot of fans would have liked. But I suppose an all new cast wouldn't be bad as well.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,629
    I think Dench's M was kept to help cement Craig's Bond, because even if Barbara believed in Craig, inside of her, she knew Brosnan's era was commercially successful. So she needed something from his era to help further secure Craig's Bond debut. The same would have happened for Bond 7 to help him too, if Craig's Bond wasn't killed. Ben Whishaw and Ralph Fiennes would have worked with Bond 7....something a lot of fans would have liked. But I suppose an all new cast wouldn't be bad as well.

    I hope that Ralph Fiennes comes back as Sir Miles as M. Same with Ben Whishaw as Major Boothroyd. I think that EON not keeping at least one of the recurring actors, that shows a lot of unnecessary favoritism towards Judi Dench. Sometimes, I feel that EON bowed to her as much as Craig. Her character was a bit of a hypocrite in the EON movies, as I've said before. Her character wasn't like that in her video games.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,152
    Missed opportunities of CR? A two-minute montage of Bond and Vesper falling in love as he recovers, finishing with the scene in the script where Bond carries her up onto the deck of the yacht, she's naked and squealing and he throws her into the sea and then dives in after her. Other than that? Nowt.
  • slide_99slide_99 USA
    edited March 18 Posts: 693
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    slide_99 wrote: »
    They should have recast M.

    Yes. Other than that, not really many missed opportunities in the movie. Maybe the cane gun.

    I'd like to see the cane gun assassination attempt get used in another Bond movie. The poisoned martini was a good substitute, though.
  • Posts: 4,139
    To be fair they kind of adapted the cane gun already in TWINE. I can see why they went with the poisoned martini. I used to think of it like the sinking house - that’s to say I found it a bit overblown in the past. But for a film, something like that was definitely needed. The scene from the book is brilliant, but not very cinematic.

    A cane gun is a great villain trait though.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,629
    007HallY wrote: »
    To be fair they kind of adapted the cane gun already in TWINE. I can see why they went with the poisoned martini. I used to think of it like the sinking house - that’s to say I found it a bit overblown in the past. But for a film, something like that was definitely needed. The scene from the book is brilliant, but not very cinematic.

    A cane gun is a great villain trait though.

    I know that. I forgot to mention, lol. Maybe one day, for real.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,641
    I love the poisoned martini scene in Casino. I remember watching the film on opening night fearing for Bond's life. I think it made everybody in the cinema sit up and really believe Bond was back in a dangerous world of espionage, were any mistake had deadly consequences
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    edited March 19 Posts: 7,120
    CR is an amazing film, I won't argue that it isn't but two things always bothered me about it:

    1. I dislike the Bond Begins stuff in the first half of the film. It's a sign of the times of course, reboots, prequels and origin stories were all the rage in the 2000's and here they do it too. I much prefer how DN handled it back in '62: here's our man James Bond, let's get on with it. Even the CR novel doesn't waste any time. Sure you can keep the two kills in the pts, but after that I wish they'd just gone on with the mission.

    2. Even worse is Bond's fake arrogance during the poker scenes. Going over to the bar to kiss Vesper like a trophy wife while everyone's watching, treating the waiter like a slave when he orders that drink. I like my Bond to be a gentleman and not some nouveau riche-prick.

    These two points aside, I still consider it an excellent Bond film of course. Always top 10 or close to it anyway.
  • Posts: 15,117
    slide_99 wrote: »
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    slide_99 wrote: »
    They should have recast M.

    Yes. Other than that, not really many missed opportunities in the movie. Maybe the cane gun.

    I'd like to see the cane gun assassination attempt get used in another Bond movie. The poisoned martini was a good substitute, though.

    I'd love to see the cane gun. But maybe it was seen as too dated, especially the way it's played in the novel?
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 2,016
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    I think Dench's M was kept to help cement Craig's Bond, because even if Barbara believed in Craig, inside of her, she knew Brosnan's era was commercially successful. So she needed something from his era to help further secure Craig's Bond debut. The same would have happened for Bond 7 to help him too, if Craig's Bond wasn't killed. Ben Whishaw and Ralph Fiennes would have worked with Bond 7....something a lot of fans would have liked. But I suppose an all new cast wouldn't be bad as well.

    I hope that Ralph Fiennes comes back as Sir Miles as M. Same with Ben Whishaw as Major Boothroyd. I think that EON not keeping at least one of the recurring actors, that shows a lot of unnecessary favoritism towards Judi Dench. Sometimes, I feel that EON bowed to her as much as Craig. Her character was a bit of a hypocrite in the EON movies, as I've said before. Her character wasn't like that in her video games.

    Hmmmm I really doubt any of Craig's Bond colleagues or superiors would be in Bond 7's world. Maybe David Thewlis as M would be cool or Jude Law.
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