"You missed Mister Bond!"..."Did I?"...The Missed Opportunities of Never Say Never Again

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  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    I love Thewlis... I'd almost much rather see him as some kind of ally, a weathered, semi-retired spy, his value is low because of his alcoholism..., but the old man has tricks up his sleeve to mentor a younger double-O agent, and he still has many connections (in low places), that can help our man Bond...
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 2,016
    peter wrote: »
    I love Thewlis... I'd almost much rather see him as some kind of ally, a weathered, semi-retired spy, his value is low because of his alcoholism..., but the old man has tricks up his sleeve to mentor a younger double-O agent, and he still has many connections (in low places), that can help our man Bond...

    Yeah. Thewlis is always a fantastic watch on screen. He's a favourite of mine too.
  • slide_99slide_99 USA
    edited March 19 Posts: 693
    Ludovico wrote: »
    slide_99 wrote: »
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    slide_99 wrote: »
    They should have recast M.

    Yes. Other than that, not really many missed opportunities in the movie. Maybe the cane gun.

    I'd like to see the cane gun assassination attempt get used in another Bond movie. The poisoned martini was a good substitute, though.

    I'd love to see the cane gun. But maybe it was seen as too dated, especially the way it's played in the novel?

    It doesn't necessarily need to be a cane gun, but Bond being held at gunpoint while trying to play cards is a great idea for a scene.

    I like the poisoned martini but I think the way it was originally scripted was better than what we got in the movie.
    At the table, Bond takes a sip of his drink, confidence
    growing. His cold eyes flick to Vesper, watching, wondering
    how he got back into the game. A hand is dealt, played.
    Bond checks his cards, closes his eyes -- just a blink.

    BOND

    opens his eyes again and it's a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT HAND.
    He realizes moments have passed! He's disoriented, losing
    focus. Things are taking on a yellow tint, coronas forming
    around lights. Bond shakes it off, trying to clear his
    mind, sweating. Smells the glass; realizes he's been
    poisoned.

    It really drives home how confused he is.
  • I have mixed feelings about this movie: I'm not very fond of the first hour of the film, which seems straight out of another movie and which I would have liked to see shortened. Yet, when the film starts to adapt Fleming's novel, as soon as Bond is on his way to Montenegro, I love it.

    The only missed opportunity for my taste is not having kept the name of Royale-Les-Eaux in one way or another. The title "Casino Royale", with the final "e", doesn't make sense and gives the impression that the producers made a spelling mistake.

    While the most obvious way to fix this would have been to keep Fleming's setting and to set the movie in France, I still think it could have worked in Montenegro. Maybe by making Royale-Les-Eaux an old seaside resort created in the 19th century that would have been given a French name to attract an aristocratic clientele from Western Europe, or something like that.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    edited March 19 Posts: 7,120
    I have mixed feelings about this movie: I'm not very fond of the first hour of the film, which seems straight out of another movie and which I would have liked to see shortened. Yet, when the film starts to adapt Fleming's novel, as soon as Bond is on his way to Montenegro, I love it.

    The only missed opportunity for my taste is not having kept the name of Royale-Les-Eaux in one way or another. The title "Casino Royale", with the final "e", doesn't make sense and gives the impression that the producers made a spelling mistake.
    Agreed, that 'spelling error' always bothered me too.

    I also love the movie from the train ride onwards, before that though I'm not this film's biggest fan. Except for Caterina Murino of course.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,426
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    I have mixed feelings about this movie: I'm not very fond of the first hour of the film, which seems straight out of another movie and which I would have liked to see shortened. Yet, when the film starts to adapt Fleming's novel, as soon as Bond is on his way to Montenegro, I love it.

    The only missed opportunity for my taste is not having kept the name of Royale-Les-Eaux in one way or another. The title "Casino Royale", with the final "e", doesn't make sense and gives the impression that the producers made a spelling mistake.
    Agreed, that 'spelling error' always bothered me too.

    I also love the movie from the train ride onwards, before that though I'm not this film's biggest fan. Except for Caterina Murino of course.

    That's one of my missed opportunities. The use of Caterina Murino. She's a beauty and shares good chemistry with Craig but her whole part seems throw-away and she really isn't crucial to the plot of the movie. A shame they didn't do a bit more with her. I count it as a missed opportunity in the film.

    I think there was a missed opportunity to edit down the section between the torture and the hospital scenes. I echo whoever said a montage of them falling in love as opposed to those scenes together. I find the pacing after the torture to be rather, ahem, torturous. LOL!
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,297
    peter wrote: »
    I love Thewlis... I'd almost much rather see him as some kind of ally, a weathered, semi-retired spy, his value is low because of his alcoholism..., but the old man has tricks up his sleeve to mentor a younger double-O agent, and he still has many connections (in low places), that can help our man Bond...

    This is a great idea. Kind of like a Saunders or Tibbett but more weathered, and probably destined for the same fate.
  • Hmmmm I really doubt any of Craig's Bond colleagues or superiors would be in Bond 7's world. Maybe David Thewlis as M would be cool or Jude Law.
    Never thought of Jude Law as M but, since he will be around 55 years old when Bond 26 is released, he will be older than Fiennes in Skyfall. He would definitely be a good pick.
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 2,016
    Hmmmm I really doubt any of Craig's Bond colleagues or superiors would be in Bond 7's world. Maybe David Thewlis as M would be cool or Jude Law.
    Never thought of Jude Law as M but, since he will be around 55 years old when Bond 26 is released, he will be older than Fiennes in Skyfall. He would definitely be a good pick.

    Yeah. He would work.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    edited March 22 Posts: 5,426
    Interesting discussion with Casino Royale. Time to move on to our next film.

    Quantum of Solace is a polarizing film. Picking up right after the ending of CR this movie represents the first time in the series that there was a direct follow up to the previous adventure.

    This film was rushed into production and paid a bit for it as the writers strike was held during filming. This resulted in Craig and Forester writing as the production wore on.

    Time to ask...

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    What are the missed opportunities of QOS?

    The kinetic editing has detractors, the introduction of Quantum was interesting and even the title was up for discussion.

    Remember a missed opportunity is NOT a critique, it's a plot line that didn't go somewhere, a casting choice, a character that was underdeveloped. A directorial or style choice that doesn't work as it should. What do you find to be the missed opportunities of QOS?

  • M_BaljeM_Balje Amsterdam, Netherlands
    edited March 23 Posts: 4,516
    I watched Casino Royale on 24 January 2007 and almoost missing it. As positive result i have seen it in year with 007 in it. The movie should in general in January or in November 2007. Whyle les time made QOS creatieve there can released QOS in 2010. With 2006, QOS should be released in 2009. Releasing 3th movie quiker then second. 4 years till Skyfall was to long.

    Mabey Amy Winehouse stil can have done title song for movie with 2009 release year and the ''This is it'' reference in NTTD who refer to Michael Jackson who died in 2009 and confirm his coming death with that line. When i heard this in NTTD i was worried the remours that Bond mabey going to die turn out to be true. With let both chacters repeating that line it looks like there give us option insteed give it a way to quickly. QOS has stil Michael Jackson referenc because QOS was directed by the directer who direct movie Finding Neverland. And of course central point of a Bond movie is Bond / a bit like you watching to your self as The Man In The Mirror with him looking in mirrors. I at this song of Michael Jackson in my Daniel Craig play list.

    QOS not going about revenge but Bond deal with Vesper death and that she betrayed him.

    After QOS and Skyfall it looks there making changes. Some ideas there have in mind for Camile been used for Madeline. For a very long time a lot expect Camile going to return, mabey as trater and that Skyfall was a break. It take to long before Felix return. But biggest one is a story Madeline told in Spectre and been Pts of NTTD. In QOS Camile told about Medrano man coming to her house. Whyle she kild him in the movie, mabey there stil have plan to show her story as Pts of Bond 24 (Not named Spectre but possible Property Of A Lady). Where in Madeline story she is saved by Safin, in Camile her story she been saved by Greene. To bring her and Greene back and Greene used her (his motto as said in QOS projection/test on her) For some time i hoped/expect Savin mabey turn out to be Dominic Greene. I also at Camile story as suggestion for Pts or later moment in Bond 26

    When there was no case of Bond 23 or Bond 24 yet i did sugestion to bring Felix and Camile back based on train station moment where we see Camile for last time and Bond left Greene in the desert with hidden train tracks under the sand. Using train scene from DAF or TMWTGG. I believe in Daf one Felix meet a Bondgirl on train.

    Daniel-Craig-Bond-23-II.jpg

    Bond24II.jpg
  • Posts: 4,139
    I’ve always felt the final fight between Bond and Green could have been much so better. As it is, Green isn’t a physical match for Bond, and even with an axe it’s pretty obvious he’s not going to win the fight.

    I think if Green had played a dirty trick on Bond - gotten a cheap shot in which wounded him in some way/put him at a disadvantage, then it could have been an interesting fight. Hell, Green’s strength as a villain is that he gets inside people’s heads and is a nasty piece of work. Perhaps that could have been used: he could have taunted Bond to put him off his guard.

    Other than that perhaps they could have shown us a bit more of Quantum. Maybe expanded Field’s role (I do feel Gemma Arterton deserved a better character).

    The film probably has more missed opportunities, but for what it’s worth (and yes, despite its flaws) they’re relatively minor. The script really isn’t that bad.
  • Posts: 15,117
    QOS should have been longer, more quiet moments.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,297
    QoS needed to explain why Bolivia--was it a testing area for the rest of the world? And the Medrano stuff just feels weirdly local. The stakes feel too small.
  • echo wrote: »
    QoS needed to explain why Bolivia--was it a testing area for the rest of the world? And the Medrano stuff just feels weirdly local. The stakes feel too small.

    Ditto: honestly the whole plot is just "unethical businessman" and some conspiracy but not really anything that would merit the Secret Service of another country to get involved. Something slightly larger scale (and something that affects Britain) like smuggling oil out of the country or something like that would make the story work a lot better
  • Posts: 15,117
    I might be in the minority, but I find the plot to steal water from Bolivia really one of the strong points of the movies. Yes it's been done before (Chinatown, Jean de Floret, Once Upon a Time in the West), but a long time ago and it's suitably large scale. I think that a criminal organisation installing a puppet dictator and controlling water supplies a serious reason for concern from the West: if they can achieve this in Bolivia, they can do it elsewhere as well. But it needed more time to establish it and more quiet moments.

    I also think both Greene as a villain and the film would have benefitted from a physically formidable henchman. A Gobinda or Oddjob to compensate Greene's rather meekly appearance.
  • edited March 23 Posts: 4,139
    I don't mind the water subplot. QOS isn't a film that needs a big world domination plot. And that's fine.

    If I do have an issue it's that the film's final showdown feels a bit lacking in stakes and tension, even though there's a lot of interesting stuff going on. Bond kinda just storms the base by himself and it's only by the end that I personally feel like he's ever in danger. I mean, LALD doesn't exactly have a big villain's scheme either, but it does benefit from the set up of Bond having to rescue Solitare, and of course the fact that things like the snake, Baron Samedi etc. have been set up beforehand, and Bond and Solitare end up in the villain's territory without back up. It feels like QOS is missing something in that sense.
  • Posts: 15,117
    007HallY wrote: »
    I don't mind the water subplot. QOS isn't a film that needs a big world domination plot. And that's fine.

    If I do have an issue it's that the film's final showdown feels a bit lacking in stakes and tension, even though there's a lot of interesting stuff going on. Bond kinda just storms the base by himself and it's only by the end that I personally feel like he's ever in danger. I mean, LALD doesn't exactly have a big villain's scheme either, but it does benefit from the set up of Bond having to rescue Solitare, and of course the fact that things like the snake, Baron Samedi etc. have been set up beforehand, and Bond and Solitare end up in the villain's territory without back up. It feels like QOS is missing something in that sense.

    There's that. That's why I think Greene should have had a big menacing bodyguard. Bigger and stronger than Bond.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,629
    Ludovico wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    I don't mind the water subplot. QOS isn't a film that needs a big world domination plot. And that's fine.

    If I do have an issue it's that the film's final showdown feels a bit lacking in stakes and tension, even though there's a lot of interesting stuff going on. Bond kinda just storms the base by himself and it's only by the end that I personally feel like he's ever in danger. I mean, LALD doesn't exactly have a big villain's scheme either, but it does benefit from the set up of Bond having to rescue Solitare, and of course the fact that things like the snake, Baron Samedi etc. have been set up beforehand, and Bond and Solitare end up in the villain's territory without back up. It feels like QOS is missing something in that sense.

    There's that. That's why I think Greene should have had a big menacing bodyguard. Bigger and stronger than Bond.

    I agree. Keep the name Elvis, and Camille’s revenge plot, and there’s stronger story material there.
  • Posts: 4,139
    Ludovico wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    I don't mind the water subplot. QOS isn't a film that needs a big world domination plot. And that's fine.

    If I do have an issue it's that the film's final showdown feels a bit lacking in stakes and tension, even though there's a lot of interesting stuff going on. Bond kinda just storms the base by himself and it's only by the end that I personally feel like he's ever in danger. I mean, LALD doesn't exactly have a big villain's scheme either, but it does benefit from the set up of Bond having to rescue Solitare, and of course the fact that things like the snake, Baron Samedi etc. have been set up beforehand, and Bond and Solitare end up in the villain's territory without back up. It feels like QOS is missing something in that sense.

    There's that. That's why I think Greene should have had a big menacing bodyguard. Bigger and stronger than Bond.

    It's a bit of a funny choice putting Green against Bond in a fight, isn't it? He's pretty much the only main villain during the Craig era who went head to head with Bond (they never seemed to be physical threats to Bond apart from Silva).

    Elvis (I think that's the henchman's name) is a missed opportunity in a sense too. I feel if he'd been given some sort of trait - something sadistic about him or a specific weapon - then he'd have been more worthwhile. As it is he's a bit of a 'writer's punching bag' character, constantly getting tripped up, ordered about by Green, and losing his toupee. I mean, I always presumed he'd have been the one to have killed Fields after what she did to him in a sort of petty/sadistic way. Maybe if his method of killing had been set up prior with something/paid off with the revelation of Fields' body? I dunno.
  • Ludovico wrote: »
    I might be in the minority, but I find the plot to steal water from Bolivia really one of the strong points of the movies. Yes it's been done before (Chinatown, Jean de Floret, Once Upon a Time in the West), but a long time ago and it's suitably large scale. I think that a criminal organisation installing a puppet dictator and controlling water supplies a serious reason for concern from the West: if they can achieve this in Bolivia, they can do it elsewhere as well.

    I mean with companies like Nestle and some of the horrible things top companies get up too, this almost feels too realistic for a Bond film. MI6 in the real world doesn't deal with some horrible things companies get away with, so why should Bond? I don't need world domination, but I do need some semblance of organised crime, something like stealing/smuggling commodities, or using the water money to fund something dodgy or something like that. Faking scarcity and doing so for profit is something many businessmen do all over the world (of course not exactly to this extent) but with nothing more there, I personally believe the plot falls flat. Quantum isn't threatening enough: we need to know that the money that they use will be for assassination, sabotage etc. not for a ring of businessmen to continue getting richer with unethical schemes.
  • Posts: 15,117
    007HallY wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    I don't mind the water subplot. QOS isn't a film that needs a big world domination plot. And that's fine.

    If I do have an issue it's that the film's final showdown feels a bit lacking in stakes and tension, even though there's a lot of interesting stuff going on. Bond kinda just storms the base by himself and it's only by the end that I personally feel like he's ever in danger. I mean, LALD doesn't exactly have a big villain's scheme either, but it does benefit from the set up of Bond having to rescue Solitare, and of course the fact that things like the snake, Baron Samedi etc. have been set up beforehand, and Bond and Solitare end up in the villain's territory without back up. It feels like QOS is missing something in that sense.

    There's that. That's why I think Greene should have had a big menacing bodyguard. Bigger and stronger than Bond.

    It's a bit of a funny choice putting Green against Bond in a fight, isn't it? He's pretty much the only main villain during the Craig era who went head to head with Bond (they never seemed to be physical threats to Bond apart from Silva).

    Elvis (I think that's the henchman's name) is a missed opportunity in a sense too. I feel if he'd been given some sort of trait - something sadistic about him or a specific weapon - then he'd have been more worthwhile. As it is he's a bit of a 'writer's punching bag' character, constantly getting tripped up, ordered about by Green, and losing his toupee. I mean, I always presumed he'd have been the one to have killed Fields after what she did to him in a sort of petty/sadistic way. Maybe if his method of killing had been set up prior with something/paid off with the revelation of Fields' body? I dunno.

    QOS needed a Hinx or maybe a Primo.

    Yes, Elvis could have remained as pathetic as he is and yet more sinister. I always thought he was a bit of a creep. Imagine him killing Fields or being a voyeur or some kind of sex predator.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,297
    Yes, trying to think of another Bond film that has a strong villain and female lead yet such a pathetic sidekick.
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 2,016
    I really love QoS. So it's always hard for me to see its missed opportunities. Maybe making more use of the Tosca eye like P & W suggested in their script and keeping the original Bond in a tux in the gunbarrel sequence that Craig actually filmed.
  • Posts: 5,993
    Missed opportunity ? Simple : a better editor. Because, during some of the action scenes, it was very, very, very (to the power of 1 000 000) difficult to understand what was going on. The script was good, but the execution left something to be desired. And as Q himself said : "And that's putting it mildly !"
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,791
    Open with the gunbarrel. I still expect that to be received as an act of good will that would overcome complaints for the editing and film pace at the time of its release.

    Overcome difficulties that prevented filming in Cusco, Peru.
    815px-Cuzco_D%C3%A9cembre_2007_-_Panorama_1.jpg
    Machu-Picchu-Peru.jpg

    Finish the complete boat chase sequence as originally planned.

    Find a place for a monologue representing the Fleming "Quantum of Solace" story, ideally from Mathis or another character.

  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,426
    I agree with those who say Elvis was a missed opportunity. I may not be recalling it right but it seemed the publicity of the film featured him quite a bit. I was expecting him to be a return to the henchmen we had in previous films. Not sure if his part got trimmed in the editing room or not. To me he's like Vargas from TB, he's just there. At least Vargas got a cool death and great line about him.

    We would have to wait till Spectre to get a henchman that made a true impression.
  • edited March 24 Posts: 4,139
    Gerard wrote: »
    Missed opportunity ? Simple : a better editor. Because, during some of the action scenes, it was very, very, very (to the power of 1 000 000) difficult to understand what was going on. The script was good, but the execution left something to be desired. And as Q himself said : "And that's putting it mildly !"

    To be fair, when it comes to something like QOS I think its flaws in this area go beyond the editors. For what it’s worth Matt Chesse had worked with Forster before (he’s still his main editor) and seems competent. Same for Richard Pearson.

    I think the reason why the editing is the way it is comes down to a couple of reasons. Firstly it was Forster who wanted the film to be fast paced ‘like a bullet’. The fast cutting was intentional in this sense (you can tell the film as a whole has some very consciously edited/planned out scenes - ie. The intercutting from Mr. White during his interrogation to the beginning of the horse race, which honestly is the sort of idea I’d expect from a first year film school student, but is ultimately a directorial decision). The second reason, I suspect, is that due to the time constraints and Forster’s lack of experience with big budget action at this point some of the set ups were botched, which forces the editors to cut around stuff/try to piece together sequences where perhaps the camera has ‘jumped the line’ by mistake, or where there’s not enough footage.

    So I wouldn’t put the sole blame on the editors. Very often ‘badly edited’ films to this extent involve major problems with the production (I mean, Thelma Schoonmaker - one of the best editors of all time - edited The Snowman if you’ve ever seen/heard of that disaster of a film).
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,791
    thedove wrote: »
    I agree with those who say Elvis was a missed opportunity. I may not be recalling it right but it seemed the publicity of the film featured him quite a bit. I was expecting him to be a return to the henchmen we had in previous films. Not sure if his part got trimmed in the editing room or not. To me he's like Vargas from TB, he's just there. At least Vargas got a cool death and great line about him.

    We would have to wait till Spectre to get a henchman that made a true impression.

    While I wouldn't give up Elvis for comic relief, adding a warrior henchman would be welcome. And not in conflict with Elvis' moments.

    From CR and with QOS I took the point the filmmakers chose not to put everything on the table all at once. They established MANY elements of the traditional film formula and gave important context that wasn't there before. But reserved some key items to build over time. Proper gunbarrel, return of Q and Moneypenny, and Warrior Henchman included.

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  • The film's biggest missed opportunity in my opinion is its use of the title of Fleming's short story.

    Not only is it disappointing that its title is reduced to the name of an organisation, but, more importantly, it is even more disappointing that the short story content is not used.

    It would have been easy to give the role of Governor of the Bahamas to Mathis, who would have been the one narrating the story to Bond while flying to Bolivia. The starting point of the discussion in the short story, with Bond making a remark about stewardesses, would have been all the more relevant with Bond and Mathis being on the plane. Mathis's mistress, could have fulfilled the role of Rhoda Llewellyn.

    Dominic Green and Mr. White's organisation would have remained unnamed, and the title is explained, in the movie, by Mathis telling Bond that "when the 'Quantum of Solace' drops to zero, humanity and consideration of one human for another is gone and the relationship is finished", echoing his state of mind.
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