"You missed Mister Bond!"..."Did I?"...The Missed Opportunities of Never Say Never Again

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  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,297
    Ooh, Machu Picchu would have been more interesting than Bolivia. That's for sure.

    I agree about using the title from the short story. Counterpoint 1: the title is a bit of a mouthful. It might have been like the way "A View to a Kill" was shoehorned into that film.

    Counterpoint 2: It's the opposite: he is trying to find out whether she made a deal to spare his life (M's theory at the end of CR). In the last scene, it is revealed that Vesper had. So Bond never reached his "quantum of solace" with Vesper, unlike in the short story.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,641
    I think some of the editing could have been better (the boat sequence in particular) or even make one of the Alfa Romeo's white or red to distinguish from Bond's dark grey Aston.

    Perhaps make Elivis more of a match for Bond, have him fight Bond in the final battle? Maybe hint that Mr White is head of the organisation

    Maybe have Bond and Camile sleep together rather than have the Strawberry Fields covered in Oil Goldfinger homage. Although I like that Bond and Camile just work together.

    In general just add a bit more meat on the bone, as much as the shorter run time is nice, I always come away feeling like the film was missing something
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,426
    It was time to celebrate the 60th anniversary of James Bond on the silver screen. What better way than with a film. A 4 year hiatus and a less than warm welcome to QOS menat a lot was riding on this film.

    A new director was brought it. Moneypenny and Q were brought back for the first time since 2002. This film was promised to be a deep look into what makes Bond, Bond!

    IMG_0150-scaled.jpeg

    Yes it's time to dive into the missed opportunities of Skyfall.

    What character developments were missed? Was there a risk not taken? How was the casting of the film?

    What are the missed opportunities of SF?
  • edited March 29 Posts: 4,139
    Y’know, I think out of all the Bond films, I don’t think there’s ever been one that took as many creative opportunities available to them that SF did. You can even argue it’s almost too conscious about what exactly it’s trying to do/how it does it, and even too willing to break convention.

    I mean, I know people might point to Severine not being used enough, but honestly, I think she’d have been dropped anyway by the third act. It’s a story centred around M’s actions and Severine would have basically been third wheeling Bond and M if kept (without adding what Kincade brings to that portion of the film).

    It’s a bit like FRWL or TSWLM for me - regardless of any flaws it has, I really can’t think of a missed opportunity and you can’t criticise it for not taking risks.
  • M_BaljeM_Balje Amsterdam, Netherlands
    edited March 30 Posts: 4,516
    Imagine there don't whant to use M then should have another way to bring Silva to Skyfall. Moost easy option have been to delay Severine death and Bond bring her with him. Bond left Casino and there stil meet at that boat, but then she asking for help and she going with him. Some how Silva still end in London to find her. Mabey message from to exited news guy (mabey faked with help of Mi6) who discover she is witness in court that day. The island stil can been hide place of Silva. But him at mi6 is canceled. Another option have been Camile back and she been Silva ex co-worker or/and ex boyfriend.

    Trust issues be in first place why M been in the court and look there going to replace her in Skyfall. Severine in court be only replament i can think about to keep Silva running and driving trow London. There is something in that scene when Silva take the car that writers/eon whant we see. Her speach saying so much, i always name it Judi Dench M told truth whyle she was lying. Mabey M stil should be there too and shocked by everything/Silva.

    Or both Severine and she go to Skyfall with a lot of disagreement from other M, Bond and Tanner. That she as another female can support Severine.

    Other Cinematographer or at least second United cinematographer for scenes in London, outside of Casino and flat in Shanghai. No purple road. Other composer, inspecialy because of TDK music at flat in Shanghai and music in London. Hate 24 vibe that partly returns in Spectre also and it feels to could.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,426
    I often think the handling of Serverine is a missed opportunity. For one, they cast a wonderful actress in the role and then they minimize her her time on screen. Her character is disposed of in a very off putting way. I would have enjoyed having a longer amount of screen time given to her and to have her death mean something. Instead we have this character slept with and killed in a callous fashion. Why not have her get off the island with Bond. Have her help Bond back in London? Anything would be better than what came about on screen.
  • edited March 30 Posts: 4,139
    thedove wrote: »
    I often think the handling of Serverine is a missed opportunity. For one, they cast a wonderful actress in the role and then they minimize her her time on screen. Her character is disposed of in a very off putting way. I would have enjoyed having a longer amount of screen time given to her and to have her death mean something. Instead we have this character slept with and killed in a callous fashion. Why not have her get off the island with Bond. Have her help Bond back in London? Anything would be better than what came about on screen.

    I suppose it's partially because beyond a point she'd be useless. There's not really any way she can help Bond in London that can't be fulfilled by Q or any of the others. In order to make her more a presence they'd have had to rewrite her character to be more integral to the story (ie. someone like Camille from QOS) and I think with SF there was already too much going on in regards to Silva's vendetta with M and Bond's own struggles that was, if anything, more interesting. I can't really see her tagging along with M and Bond to Scotland, and even by the end it makes more sense that Moneypenny be the one to give Bond the bulldog/have that moment rather than Severine.

    I think from a script perspective, it's a case of either letting her die or live once she gets Bond to the island, and then dropping her from the film as we eventually got. As it is, her being killed by Silva is much more impactful out of those options, and it's in line with the trend of the early Craig Bond films that involve Bond inadvertently getting women killed after he sleeps with them to further his mission. It's dark, but it makes sense, cruel as it is.
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    edited March 30 Posts: 2,016
    Berenice was really good as Severine. The dialogue between her and Bond really does rival that of Bond and Vesper's first meeting in CR. I think the dialogue between Bond and Severine is the most eerie of the series and Newman's subtle, but effective music further heightens it. I too wanted more Severine. But like most interesting women in Craig's Bond era, it wasn't to be.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,297
    thedove wrote: »
    I often think the handling of Serverine is a missed opportunity. For one, they cast a wonderful actress in the role and then they minimize her her time on screen. Her character is disposed of in a very off putting way.

    That's kind of the point. It establishes Silva's ruthlessness very well.

    I do think it was a missed opportunity to not do more on the island. Maybe Silva or Bond could have escaped from the other one?

    I'm not the biggest fan of the Silence-of-the-Lambs-like incarceration/tube chase and would have done something differently here, picking it up again with the attempted assassination of M at Parliament.
  • Posts: 1,340
    Bond must be fired at the end of the film.
  • Posts: 15,117
    007HallY wrote: »
    Y’know, I think out of all the Bond films, I don’t think there’s ever been one that took as many creative opportunities available to them that SF did. You can even argue it’s almost too conscious about what exactly it’s trying to do/how it does it, and even too willing to break convention.

    I mean, I know people might point to Severine not being used enough, but honestly, I think she’d have been dropped anyway by the third act. It’s a story centred around M’s actions and Severine would have basically been third wheeling Bond and M if kept (without adding what Kincade brings to that portion of the film).

    It’s a bit like FRWL or TSWLM for me - regardless of any flaws it has, I really can’t think of a missed opportunity and you can’t criticise it for not taking risks.

    Don't know if I can add anything more. Complaining of a missed opportunity in SF is like saying Michael Corleone should have never been involved in the family business.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,791
    Title should have been SkyFall.

    So obvious.

  • I’m disappointed by the lack of skies actually falling. There somebody had to say it :-L
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,791
    Okay alright. Ornithologically, some bird notion should have been represented visually or in dialogue. Yes.

    Or maybe I missed it.

    200w.gif

  • Despite some reservations regarding certain creative choices, it's hard to think of a true missed opportunity with this movie. The film was able to resonate with the public upon its release, was a huge success, and was therefore perfectly calibrated.

    For example, I would have liked the character of Severine to be developed more, but, as it has been pointed out, the fact that she is sacrificed serves the film and it is difficult to see it as a missed opportunity. I would have liked to see more of Silva's island, but again, hard to think it is a missed opportunity.
  • edited March 31 Posts: 2,165
    Despite overall liking Newman’s score, I would…

    1. Put a metaphorical gun to his head and make him utilise the theme song in the score.
    2. Play the theme song again over the end credits.
    3. Make it a little more clear Bond is being invited into Severine’s room. Like have him knock and be welcomed in by her.
    I’m disappointed by the lack of skies actually falling. There somebody had to say it :-L

    They do in the opening titles 😉
  • RemingtonRemington I'll do anything for a woman with a knife.
    Posts: 1,534
    Not utilizing Adele's theme more throughout the score, not having Dr. Hall be Sir James Molony from the novels, not using Severine and Silva's island to their fullest potential, and not having a fight between Bond and Silva.
  • Posts: 2,165
    Remington wrote: »
    Not utilizing Adele's theme more throughout the score, not having Dr. Hall be Sir James Molony from the novels, not using Severine and Silva's island to their fullest potential, and not having a fight between Bond and Silva.

    I think they did originally plan to do a whole chase scene round Silva’s island, a little similar to TMWTGG’s third act, but it was cut at a script stage and was never filmed. I cant remember where I red that though.

    On that last point, I wouldn't be surprised if they did originally plan a fight for Bond and Silva on the chapel, and it would be cool if Bond punched out his metal mouth. But it also would have been a bit much and the more concise ending works too. Thats just me speculating btw.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,426
    I just watched CR after a long time between viewings and I was reminded how Arnold used You Know My Name through out the film effectively. A perfect callback and used in the right amount of doses to highlight the song and theme.

    A shame that Newman didn't do this with Skyfall theme. It is a great song and to not have it referenced in the film is a missed opportunity.
  • Posts: 15,117
    Mallory wrote: »
    Remington wrote: »
    Not utilizing Adele's theme more throughout the score, not having Dr. Hall be Sir James Molony from the novels, not using Severine and Silva's island to their fullest potential, and not having a fight between Bond and Silva.

    I think they did originally plan to do a whole chase scene round Silva’s island, a little similar to TMWTGG’s third act, but it was cut at a script stage and was never filmed. I cant remember where I red that though.

    On that last point, I wouldn't be surprised if they did originally plan a fight for Bond and Silva on the chapel, and it would be cool if Bond punched out his metal mouth. But it also would have been a bit much and the more concise ending works too. Thats just me speculating btw.

    I guess they could have gone mano a mano and Javier Bardem is physically impressive enough to prove a believable match for Craig. The problem is though is that Silva as a character is an evil, effeminate nerd. He's dangerous, but not in a physical sense. Not like say Grant, Trevelyan or even Largo. In a fist fight against a 00, especially back in shape, he logically doesn't stand a chance. Besides I'm not sure a duel in the chapel would have worked after the heavy action scene thar had just happened.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,629
    Skyfall feels at times that it’s paying tribute to Judi Dench more than M herself. It’s really hard to sympathize with her. Especially when you take her time in PB’s run. She didn’t do her job well, in either era. The writing department always played the same things with her. I have problems believing that Bond would honestly be sad when she died.
  • Ludovico wrote: »
    Mallory wrote: »
    Remington wrote: »
    Not utilizing Adele's theme more throughout the score, not having Dr. Hall be Sir James Molony from the novels, not using Severine and Silva's island to their fullest potential, and not having a fight between Bond and Silva.

    I think they did originally plan to do a whole chase scene round Silva’s island, a little similar to TMWTGG’s third act, but it was cut at a script stage and was never filmed. I cant remember where I red that though.

    On that last point, I wouldn't be surprised if they did originally plan a fight for Bond and Silva on the chapel, and it would be cool if Bond punched out his metal mouth. But it also would have been a bit much and the more concise ending works too. Thats just me speculating btw.

    He's dangerous, but not in a physical sense. Not like say Grant, Trevelyan or even Largo. In a fist fight against a 00, especially back in shape, he logically doesn't stand a chance.
    Silva did take out about 3 guards at the high-security prison: they could easily write him to be ex-Army or something and he can fight
  • edited April 1 Posts: 4,139
    There’s definitely something conscious going on with the whole idea of Bond/Silva being equals and Bond slowly getting back into shape/overtaking him. There’s that moment in the tube when Silva trips down the escalator, barely keeping his pace, while Bond doesn’t even break a stride as he jumps off of it. Silva also becomes quite manic and unhinged as the film goes on, and Bond even manages to kill him because he’s ‘savouring’ the opportunity to kill M and himself. The way I see it - both Bond and Silva (and indeed even M) are characters looking for salvation. Bond is the only one who earns it. It reminds me a lot of the YOLT novel where Bond slowly recovers from his PTSD and it’s Blofeld who becomes a madman justifying his previous crimes. Plus Bond just comes across as so cool and unflappable in that classical Bondian way once he starts running up to the hearing in SF, haha.

    It makes sense dramatically. I can see why it was favoured over a head to head fight with Silva and Bond. If anything it’s more a disappointment with the Craig era that we only got one such fight with Bond and the main villain. I would have loved to have seen such a fight between Bond and Blofeld with a more imposing actor.
  • Posts: 15,117
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Mallory wrote: »
    Remington wrote: »
    Not utilizing Adele's theme more throughout the score, not having Dr. Hall be Sir James Molony from the novels, not using Severine and Silva's island to their fullest potential, and not having a fight between Bond and Silva.

    I think they did originally plan to do a whole chase scene round Silva’s island, a little similar to TMWTGG’s third act, but it was cut at a script stage and was never filmed. I cant remember where I red that though.

    On that last point, I wouldn't be surprised if they did originally plan a fight for Bond and Silva on the chapel, and it would be cool if Bond punched out his metal mouth. But it also would have been a bit much and the more concise ending works too. Thats just me speculating btw.

    He's dangerous, but not in a physical sense. Not like say Grant, Trevelyan or even Largo. In a fist fight against a 00, especially back in shape, he logically doesn't stand a chance.
    Silva did take out about 3 guards at the high-security prison: they could easily write him to be ex-Army or something and he can fight

    We don't know if he did it by himself or if he had help, although the way he was stretching it's implied he did the deed himself. But we can't be sure. But I take the escape of his prison more of a plot convenience than anything else: he easily escapes because he must. They kind of hardwave the how.
    007HallY wrote: »
    There’s definitely something conscious going on with the whole idea of Bond/Silva being equals and Bond slowly getting back into shape/overtaking him. There’s that moment in the tube when Silva trips down the escalator, barely keeping his pace, while Bond doesn’t even break a stride as he jumps off of it. Silva also becomes quite manic and unhinged as the film goes on, and Bond even manages to kill him because he’s ‘savouring’ the opportunity to kill M and himself. The way I see it - both Bond and Silva (and indeed even M) are characters looking for salvation. Bond is the only one who earns it. It reminds me a lot of the YOLT novel where Bond slowly recovers from his PTSD and it’s Blofeld who becomes a madman justifying his previous crimes. Plus Bond just comes across as so cool and unflappable in that classical Bondian way once he starts running up to the hearing in SF, haha.

    It makes sense dramatically. I can see why it was favoured over a head to head fight with Silva and Bond. If anything it’s more a disappointment with the Craig era that we only got one such fight with Bond and the main villain. I would have loved to have seen such a fight between Bond and Blofeld with a more imposing actor.

    Agreed about Blofeld. Regarding Silva, I think he's probably a fairly capable fighter, at least he knows how to use weapons, but he's not an operative, let alone a 00. He even seems to be thinking little of action men.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,383
    007HallY wrote: »
    Not casting Javier Bardem, or Jean Reno, or an actor like this for Renard. Carlyle’s a great character actor and plays the psychotic Begbie in Trainspotting well, but he’s completely miscast here. Renard should be this agent of chaos, a man who is struck down in his prime by a bullet that’ll eventually kill him. You need an actor with a level of charisma and magnetism alongside that menace/mania. We need to believe that Ekektra could fall for and be seduced by such a man. And yes, I do understand it’s revealed later that she’s playing him, but I think it’s more impactful with a more charismatic villain and makes that revelation more interesting. That and Carlyle's performance, a bit like Brosnan’s, becomes hammy and embarrassing as the film goes on. In my opinion anyway.

    Catching up with the thread: Jean Reno is a really great call; someone you can imagine with a bit of raw magnetism she would believably fall for.
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 2,016
    I think Carlyle's Renard could have been better for sure, but he isn't as disappointing as Malek's Safin.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    edited April 5 Posts: 5,426
    Time for us to move on to our next film adventure. After a 3 year hiatus Bond returned and this time it was to face an old enemy!

    The film was called Spectre and would feature Hans Oberhauser as the main villain. Turns out Bond and Oberhauser know each other and that makes the stakes very personal. We have a new character within the government code name C. We have the return of Mister White. Also making a return to the series was the hulking henchman, played by Dave Bautista. The film had scope, world records and a ride off into the sunset ending.

    So I have to ask what were the missed opportunities of SP?

    o-JAMES-BOND-SPECTRE-570.jpg?6


    This film was polarizing and faced the challenge of being a part of the Sony hack. A troubled production that left Craig saying he'd rather slit his wrists that play Bond again.

    Share your thoughts on the missed opportunities of this film. Was there a miscast character, any plot threads that were either missed or not explored fully? Did the soundtrack hit the mark? The theme song that we ended up with might have been a missed opportunity as well.

    Share your missed opportunities of SP?
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    edited April 5 Posts: 1,711
    My favorite Bond film. Only thing I'd change is have Dusty Springfield's "Spooky" instead of "New York, New York", which was the original idea.

    Everything else is perfect as is!
  • Posts: 2,165
    All of it.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,641
    Have Bond try to protect Mr White from Hinx before Hinx kills White in a shootout with Bond

    More exciting car chase, less cutaways to Moneypenny

    Have Blofeld get away rather than be captured

    The final act be in Blofeld's base

    Less reused themes from Skyfall in the score

    Do away with Bond and Blofeld being step brothers.
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