"You missed Mister Bond!"..."Did I?"...The Missed Opportunities of Never Say Never Again

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  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,711
    I think Nine Eyes lacks all threat at all because of the name and how it is implemented. Five Eyes already exists and the world is not in a horrible state because of it, instead of an implementation plot potentially more threat would have been had if the intelligence was being given to a "contractor" that was shady or something like that. And the ticking clock on it doesn't make sense. Why would five minutes of surveillance footage be so bad for the course of the world?
    The villain's plan is forgettable in this one, and is a big missed opportunity along with Blofeld

    This is, uh, more or less what happens in the movie already.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    The "ticking clock" feels a bit redundant, yes, though I can imagine that as soon as such a system goes online, a lot of damage can be done. Or that it's harder, politically speaking, to switch it back off. I don't know. It's muddy. Conceptually, it's not a bad idea. But it lacks in execution.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,216
    There are a number of things that I could write but others will likely write similar suggestions, so I'll stick with something a bit trivial:

    They should have cut the "careless" line after M says "....and now we know what C stands for."

    Ruined one of the best jokes of the series.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,383
    Oh I don't mind that. Might have been a touch too crude for a Bond film, I quite like that they let the audience think it's their own dirty minds.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,216
    It felt like a bit of a cop out for me. Either commit to the gag or don't.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,711
    It also makes M look like a bit of a dork, totally unaware that he'd made a joke at all. It's cute. I could go either way on that...
  • edited April 9 Posts: 4,139
    It does feel as though the 'careless' bit was written in later. It could well have been an attempt at humour/subverting an expectation, but at the same time it's not something that lands for me.

    With the last line taken out it reminds me of the 'there's a four letter word, and you're full of it' line that crops up in at least two Bond films, which is arguably much more crude.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,383
    007HallY wrote: »
    With the last line taken out it reminds me of the 'there's a four letter word, and you're full of it' line that crops up in at least two Bond films, which is arguably much more crude.

    Yeah I'm not keen on those; they're not particularly clever but sort of dressed up to make it seem like they are.
  • Posts: 4,139
    mtm wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    With the last line taken out it reminds me of the 'there's a four letter word, and you're full of it' line that crops up in at least two Bond films, which is arguably much more crude.

    Yeah I'm not keen on those; they're not particularly clever but sort of dressed up to make it seem like they are.

    Fair. Maybe it’s just my sense of humour.

    Personally I’m holding out for a film where Bond turns to a villain and tells him to go and f himself like in the GF novel, haha.
  • edited April 9 Posts: 259
    I think Nine Eyes lacks all threat at all because of the name and how it is implemented. Five Eyes already exists and the world is not in a horrible state because of it, instead of an implementation plot potentially more threat would have been had if the intelligence was being given to a "contractor" that was shady or something like that. And the ticking clock on it doesn't make sense. Why would five minutes of surveillance footage be so bad for the course of the world?
    The villain's plan is forgettable in this one, and is a big missed opportunity along with Blofeld

    This is, uh, more or less what happens in the movie already.

    I meant past intelligence and not new up and coming stuff. Like previous "Five Eyes" data
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,297
    I think Nine Eyes lacks all threat at all because of the name and how it is implemented. Five Eyes already exists and the world is not in a horrible state because of it, instead of an implementation plot potentially more threat would have been had if the intelligence was being given to a "contractor" that was shady or something like that. And the ticking clock on it doesn't make sense. Why would five minutes of surveillance footage be so bad for the course of the world?
    The villain's plan is forgettable in this one, and is a big missed opportunity along with Blofeld

    The threat should have made more visceral (a CNN report about South Africa doesn't cut it). It works well in the Mr. White post-poisoning scene, but the film needed a lot more of that element.
  • Posts: 2,165
    echo wrote: »
    I think Nine Eyes lacks all threat at all because of the name and how it is implemented. Five Eyes already exists and the world is not in a horrible state because of it, instead of an implementation plot potentially more threat would have been had if the intelligence was being given to a "contractor" that was shady or something like that. And the ticking clock on it doesn't make sense. Why would five minutes of surveillance footage be so bad for the course of the world?
    The villain's plan is forgettable in this one, and is a big missed opportunity along with Blofeld

    The threat should have made more visceral (a CNN report about South Africa doesn't cut it). It works well in the Mr. White post-poisoning scene, but the film needed a lot more of that element.

    The issue with SPECTRE's grand evil plan is that it doesn't really exist in the movie, and the movie itself is unconcerned with it. Same as NTTD.

    They have duped the nine nations into collaborating on a shared intelligence gathering system which SPECTRE designed, installed and have complete access to. And what do they want to do with it? I dont know, and the film sure doesn't.

    It's not an idea that wouldn't work, for example:

    1. SPECTRE take over the system and immediately lock the nine nations out of it. Major intelligence outage in the western world and SPECTRE either use it to commit terrorist acts, or extort the countries in order to get it back (a bit like Thunderball).
    2. They use to to feed false or doctored information to different countries, causing a rift or threat or war or something.
    3. The system is already in place at the beginning of the movie, Bond is sent on a mission using false information SPECTRE have planted in the system, and he unravells this as the mission goes one. False/Doctored information is used to try and discredit Bond (a bit like AI and deepfakes are used today) causing issues of trust, traitors etc.

    With CR, QoS and SP, it is really clear what the villains want to achieve. It isnt with SP and NTTD and I hope it is something Bond 26 fixes.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    Mallory wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    I think Nine Eyes lacks all threat at all because of the name and how it is implemented. Five Eyes already exists and the world is not in a horrible state because of it, instead of an implementation plot potentially more threat would have been had if the intelligence was being given to a "contractor" that was shady or something like that. And the ticking clock on it doesn't make sense. Why would five minutes of surveillance footage be so bad for the course of the world?
    The villain's plan is forgettable in this one, and is a big missed opportunity along with Blofeld

    The threat should have made more visceral (a CNN report about South Africa doesn't cut it). It works well in the Mr. White post-poisoning scene, but the film needed a lot more of that element.

    The issue with SPECTRE's grand evil plan is that it doesn't really exist in the movie, and the movie itself is unconcerned with it. Same as NTTD.

    They have duped the nine nations into collaborating on a shared intelligence gathering system which SPECTRE designed, installed and have complete access to. And what do they want to do with it? I dont know, and the film sure doesn't.

    It's not an idea that wouldn't work, for example:

    1. SPECTRE take over the system and immediately lock the nine nations out of it. Major intelligence outage in the western world and SPECTRE either use it to commit terrorist acts, or extort the countries in order to get it back (a bit like Thunderball).
    2. They use to to feed false or doctored information to different countries, causing a rift or threat or war or something.
    3. The system is already in place at the beginning of the movie, Bond is sent on a mission using false information SPECTRE have planted in the system, and he unravells this as the mission goes one. False/Doctored information is used to try and discredit Bond (a bit like AI and deepfakes are used today) causing issues of trust, traitors etc.

    With CR, QoS and SP, it is really clear what the villains want to achieve. It isnt with SP and NTTD and I hope it is something Bond 26 fixes.

    I like that analysis, @Mallory. I especially like point 3. It would have given the film a bigger sense or urgency. Now I'm going to dream about that. ;-) Well done, sir!
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,383
    Mallory wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    I think Nine Eyes lacks all threat at all because of the name and how it is implemented. Five Eyes already exists and the world is not in a horrible state because of it, instead of an implementation plot potentially more threat would have been had if the intelligence was being given to a "contractor" that was shady or something like that. And the ticking clock on it doesn't make sense. Why would five minutes of surveillance footage be so bad for the course of the world?
    The villain's plan is forgettable in this one, and is a big missed opportunity along with Blofeld

    The threat should have made more visceral (a CNN report about South Africa doesn't cut it). It works well in the Mr. White post-poisoning scene, but the film needed a lot more of that element.

    The issue with SPECTRE's grand evil plan is that it doesn't really exist in the movie, and the movie itself is unconcerned with it. Same as NTTD.

    They have duped the nine nations into collaborating on a shared intelligence gathering system which SPECTRE designed, installed and have complete access to. And what do they want to do with it? I dont know, and the film sure doesn't.

    It's not an idea that wouldn't work, for example:

    1. SPECTRE take over the system and immediately lock the nine nations out of it. Major intelligence outage in the western world and SPECTRE either use it to commit terrorist acts, or extort the countries in order to get it back (a bit like Thunderball).
    2. They use to to feed false or doctored information to different countries, causing a rift or threat or war or something.
    3. The system is already in place at the beginning of the movie, Bond is sent on a mission using false information SPECTRE have planted in the system, and he unravells this as the mission goes one. False/Doctored information is used to try and discredit Bond (a bit like AI and deepfakes are used today) causing issues of trust, traitors etc.

    With CR, QoS and SP, it is really clear what the villains want to achieve. It isnt with SP and NTTD and I hope it is something Bond 26 fixes.

    I think it is scary as a concept but I agree it could have done with being given more shape, and your point 3 is a good one as the threat is always stronger when we see it in action, ideally affecting Bond himself. As an example I think that's why the nuclear bomb threat in Goldfinger hits harder than in Thunderball: in TB we don't see the bomb or even the city it's about to destroy, in GF Bond is actually chained to the thing.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,426
    Great thoughts about a movie that has some great parts, but has some issues.

    Time for the big one! The final film in the series goes under the missed opportunities microscope.

    Premiering in 2021...wow it's been three years already? This would mark the end for Daniel Craig as Bond. A director was dismissed due to creative differences. A Premiere was postponed on multiple occasions due to the pandemic. This film was a lightning rod when it was released due to the ending where after 25 adventures James Bond dies.

    What are the missed opportunities of No Time To Die?

    IMG_0075-scaled.jpeg

    Phoebe Waller Bridge was brought in to enhance the female voices of the film. The producers were forced to use the sets that had been assembled for the first director. We return to Italy again. Blofeld comes back for a cameo as does Felix Leiter (spoiler, he dies too). Bond gains a daughter but loses his double-o-7 moniker.

    Lots going on and we certainly can't say this movie plays it safe. But I have to ask what are the missed opportunities of this film?

    Missed opportunities might be music choices with the soundtrack, or a casting choice, was a character under-developed? Was a story thread left hanging? Did the script make some leaps of logic?

    Lets dive in and discuss the missed opportunities of No Time to Die!
  • Missed opportunity #1 is Safin. After killing SPECTRE his motivation is all over the place and nowhere that makes sense. I genuinely have no idea why he's evil and even less so of why he wants his own bioterrorism operation to control the world.

    #2 is the final scene at Safin's lair. Why Bond goes alone to open the missile doors instead of Nomi is not well explained and him being beat by Safin feel wrong as Safin does not seem a physically imposing or cunning villain. Never mind the whole "I love Madeleine" subplot that is quickly dropped (and doesn't really make sense). This bit ties into #1 a bit as well: we'd forgive this if we get direction from Safin.

    #3 is Bond's death. It feels wrong for me for Bond's death to be relatively inconsequential. It feels like if would die prematurely, he would do so willingly in the climax of a battle endangering millions (like proposed in the Moonraker novel), or as a villain getting the better of him after the plan is defeated (like I suppose in FRWL). Instead, Bond dies tying up loose ends, the plan pretty much vanquished and the villain dead. Bond dying impacts nothing but our feelings, and we don't even get the feeling that he's been bettered or out-thought. This is especially worse because of #1 and #2. The series' worst villain is responsible for the gimmick that makes Bond give up. The fight is confusingly explained and justified and presented.

    Many have this near the bottom (albeit this all works for some) but I can guarantee if NTTD had Bond run off into the sunset instead of a poorly done death, most (me included) would have it midtable.
  • M_BaljeM_Balje Amsterdam, Netherlands
    edited April 12 Posts: 4,516
    Safin whant a smaller world. When Malik was cast mabey for some time i hoped/expect playing younger version of Dominic Greene. After Madeline left and there at Oberhauser Blofeld in jail in Spectre, mabey expect a break from Blofeld. The movie going to be named The Hildebrand Rarity because of title on a door in Spectre (giving us title of next movie as there did with QOS in trailer of Casino Royale).

    Felix and his army going to attack the island with help of Nomi and Paloma. Bond have end with Nomi. For long time there let us believe Madeline was bad. She died.

    Blofeld killing Safin as gift for his brother. The movie end with burned face of Blofeld. Keep in mind that the Blofeld behind window in Spectre in Mi6 and Blofeld we see die is mabey not same Blofeld at the first meeting at lair in Spectre. Mabey even Blofeld with cats is not him.

    In little bit of Joke i said Polama should have taken M's flying car and saved Bond.

    Opportunities for Bond 26:

    Return of Dominic Greene and Camile. Camile has simalar story as Madeline and after i watched NTTD i am curious or producers/writers consider to tell her story about Medrano and missing story of her history with Greene. Before there let him return (there have people everywhere: So also man at other side of Tanner phone and in the desert.). Before there deside to tell Madeline story and let Bond die.

    Safin part of Quantum/working for Greene. Like as in FRWL when it turn out DR No working for Blofeld.
    Blofeld return in Bond 27 played by another actor. It wil be Diamonds Are Forever again with Blofeld having various faces. Behind The Mask/Face, wall, door is very inportent theme.

    No Good About Goodbye by Shirley Bassey (even for end credits) or title song of Radiohead wil be more logic for Bond 26.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,383
    Nomi feels like a big missed opportunity for me. She has no effect on the plot or Bond really; if you remove her from the film almost nothing changes. She feels like a hangover from a previous version of the script.
    She's the new 007 in a run of films which began with us seeing Bond become 007: was there no bookending to be done there? No passing of the torch, a contrast to be made with Bond as a rookie?
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,426
    mtm wrote: »
    Nomi feels like a big missed opportunity for me. She has no effect on the plot or Bond really; if you remove her from the film almost nothing changes. She feels like a hangover from a previous version of the script.
    She's the new 007 in a run of films which began with us seeing Bond become 007: was there no bookending to be done there? No passing of the torch, a contrast to be made with Bond as a rookie?

    That's a great point. They start out adversarial and then we have this mentoring thing out of the blue. On their first meeting she seems to be needling him when they've never met before. While I was glad that she wasn't shown to be superior to Bond and out doing him at everything, her character has no real arc or development.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited April 13 Posts: 16,383
    Really she should have been shown to out-do him on a couple of occasions: even Anya, Holly, Wai Lin etc. get one over on Bond in their first couple of engagements. But Nomi ‘loses’ every one of their sparring sessions- even the very first one where she’s sent out to dissuade him from getting involved (her presence actually convinces Bond to get involved).
    Imagine a version where Ash or someone looks set to be her ‘Vesper’, and Bond stops history repeating. I guess that might be quite a lot to pack in, but it feels like there was a rhyming scheme being set up there that they didn’t use.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,641
    Needless to say I have a few suggestions with NTTD.

    The motorbike jump, Bond should have been getting chased and then got away from the bad guys by jumping the wall

    Paloma should have been in the film longer

    A small one, but I wish they kept that harpoon shot in Jamaica

    Have Nomi be a traitor, a final battle 007 vs Bond would have been cool and given Lashana more to do.

    Spend more time in Matera and Jamaica, less in London.

    Make more use of the V8 Vantage and the Atlantic Road.

    Not kill Bond at all. They had two better Fleming inspired endings they could have used, FRWL and YOLT. An ambiguous ending would have been easy to rewatch.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,383
    Yeah Norway feels a bit underused. The 4x4 chase is a missed opportunity: at least in Spectre you have the plane chase which feels in the Bondy tradition and has a big eye-catching stunt - with the 4x4 bit they just didn't seem to have any ideas. The Land Rovers and bikes doing massive jumps down the hill looks great, but they needed to come up with a bit more than that.
  • edited April 13 Posts: 1,078
    I've banged on enough about the disappointments of NTTD, it's the only Bond film I actually dislike, 'nuff said about that.
    But one thing I though was a real shame, was that it was the first Bond film to come out after Covid, and one of the first major films to get people back in cinemas, and it wasn't a fun romp where people could come out the cinema walking ten foot tall and punching the air.
    Obviously the producers weren't at fault for this - the film was made before the world went to shit - but it would have been a wonderful experience to have been given a James Bond film where he emerges victorious at the end of a thrilling adventure which excited us all.
    After the previous two years of closed cinemas and no evenings out and us worrying about our friends and family, we could have done with a Bond film that was a less dour. A bit more Moore, basically.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited April 13 Posts: 6,297
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    Needless to say I have a few suggestions with NTTD.

    The motorbike jump, Bond should have been getting chased and then got away from the bad guys by jumping the wall

    Paloma should have been in the film longer

    A small one, but I wish they kept that harpoon shot in Jamaica

    Have Nomi be a traitor, a final battle 007 vs Bond would have been cool and given Lashana more to do.

    Spend more time in Matera and Jamaica, less in London.

    Make more use of the V8 Vantage and the Atlantic Road.

    Not kill Bond at all. They had two better Fleming inspired endings they could have used, FRWL and YOLT. An ambiguous ending would have been easy to rewatch.

    A car should have flown off the Atlantic Road a la QoS.

    I think they did a commendable job in adapting YOLT as best they could.

    However, YOLT is such a unique and special novel in the canon: Bond's brokenness, his impossible mission, the obsession with death in Japan, the samurai suit, Blofeld's madness, the "question room," etc. They *really* need to adapt it properly, someday, all in Japan, when they have an OHMSS-level loss leading into it from the previous film.

    I realize that it's a thin novel, plotwise, but it is an achievement in how it caps off the series, even with its cliffhanger.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    I think they did a commendable job in adapting YOLT as best they could.

    Very much agree. Anything from that novel, I think, would be a nightmare to adapt. Fleming’s creative brain was on another level when writing it. Thin on plot, but he stuffed it with melancholy, getting over loss, losing one’s way, alcoholism, a villain that’s gone insane with his megalomaniacal plot of dominating the sad populous (like Bond), who visits his Garden Of Death. It’s such a crazy novel…
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,641
    I think they did a great job of adapting elements from YOLT throughout the Craig era, including NTTD. I just wish the "Die Blofeld" had been better written and acted honestly
  • Posts: 1,078
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    I think they did a great job of adapting elements from YOLT throughout the Craig era, including NTTD. I just wish the "Die Blofeld" had been better written and acted honestly

    To make matters worse, that part was written so well in the book. It's one thing copying the words from Fleming, it's another thing capturing the spirit, (which I agree, they did do several times in the Craig era).
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,297
    peter wrote: »
    I think they did a commendable job in adapting YOLT as best they could.

    Very much agree. Anything from that novel, I think, would be a nightmare to adapt. Fleming’s creative brain was on another level when writing it. Thin on plot, but he stuffed it with melancholy, getting over loss, losing one’s way, alcoholism, a villain that’s gone insane with his megalomaniacal plot of dominating the sad populous (like Bond), who visits his Garden Of Death. It’s such a crazy novel…

    It's kind of like a nightmare Bond is having after Tracy's death.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    echo wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    I think they did a commendable job in adapting YOLT as best they could.

    Very much agree. Anything from that novel, I think, would be a nightmare to adapt. Fleming’s creative brain was on another level when writing it. Thin on plot, but he stuffed it with melancholy, getting over loss, losing one’s way, alcoholism, a villain that’s gone insane with his megalomaniacal plot of dominating the sad populous (like Bond), who visits his Garden Of Death. It’s such a crazy novel…

    It's kind of like a nightmare Bond is having after Tracy's death.

    Great way of describing it.
  • Posts: 4,139
    peter wrote: »
    I think they did a commendable job in adapting YOLT as best they could.

    Very much agree. Anything from that novel, I think, would be a nightmare to adapt. Fleming’s creative brain was on another level when writing it. Thin on plot, but he stuffed it with melancholy, getting over loss, losing one’s way, alcoholism, a villain that’s gone insane with his megalomaniacal plot of dominating the sad populous (like Bond), who visits his Garden Of Death. It’s such a crazy novel…

    It’s a great novel, and I get the sense it was on the producer’s minds a lot during the making of SF and NTTD. They’re not adaptations as much as they understand it and take a lot of its ideas (even in terms of the villains of both films I like how Silva and Safin both slide into mania, personal obsession and I suppose evil, while Bond is able to navigate his personal obstacles, which I find very YOLT-esque).

    In a way it’s for the best it’s a novel thin on plot and big on ideas because so much can be taken from it.
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