"You missed Mister Bond!"..."Did I?"...The Missed Opportunities of Never Say Never Again

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  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited September 2023 Posts: 6,304
    The squid would have looked ridiculous in 1962 but today (and in the future) it could be done right. We're in the world of deepfakes. (And the inevitable ink could hide any seams.)

    Of course it's a silly scene but so are crossing alligators and flipping scorpions.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,634
    Ludovico wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    I do think we will see the squid someday.

    I'm of two minds about it. On the one hand it's one element of Fleming that hasn't been used, on the other hand people would probably complain of the CGI quality and giant squids are already dated as a trope.

    That and animal rights activists would complain. Although honestly, I’m tired of animals being used to torture and kill people. Especially when the animal gets needlessly killed itself.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,431
    CrabKey wrote: »
    At no point have I ever considered OHMSS as TB on skis. Its positioning with respect to OHMSS aside, I feel an opportunity was missed with YOLT to make an exciting and dark film. It seemed to have opened the door to more stories about spaceships, satellites, and solar and diamond arrays.

    One can say that there is a romance between Bond and the leading ladies that features in the plots, gambling occurs in both films. There is a chase through a festival by a female antagonist. Bond is racing against a clock as Blofeld demands a ransom and a title with a given timeframe. Bond is out on his own in both films, though in TB he does have a bit more support. Much of the action takes place in one location and one type of environment. I can see similarities.

    I guess it depends on the script.

    It's like YOLT and Spy, although I think the similarities are much more pronounced. Then MR becomes Spy with the underwater being switched for space. Even Bond having an antagonistic relationship with the leading lady for a good deal of the film. Both seem to suggest Amasova and Goodhead are his equal. I would argue that only Holly shows Bond up through out the film and especially when they get to space.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    Posts: 3,789
    thedove wrote: »
    CrabKey wrote: »
    At no point have I ever considered OHMSS as TB on skis. Its positioning with respect to OHMSS aside, I feel an opportunity was missed with YOLT to make an exciting and dark film. It seemed to have opened the door to more stories about spaceships, satellites, and solar and diamond arrays.

    One can say that there is a romance between Bond and the leading ladies that features in the plots, gambling occurs in both films. There is a chase through a festival by a female antagonist. Bond is racing against a clock as Blofeld demands a ransom and a title with a given timeframe. Bond is out on his own in both films, though in TB he does have a bit more support. Much of the action takes place in one location and one type of environment. I can see similarities.

    I guess it depends on the script.

    Interesting observation @thedove regarding TB and OHMSS.
  • Posts: 1,993
    @thedove Yes, I do see those broad similarities. But they are done so differently, for me they are very different films. I do like gambling sequences and Bond has been in a fair number of festivals, most recently in SPECTRE.
  • Posts: 4,161
    Ludovico wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    Garden of Death could have used some sharks with frickin' lasers.

    Fleming's, I mean.

    Maybe a giant squid or two?

    (I do look forward to the day when we get something like this in a Bond film.... although I suppose we had giant lizards in SF which I always thought took some inspiration from the squid).

    They were not giant lizards: they were Komodo dragons, and from what I understand normal sized for such creatures (a biologist corrects me if I'm wrong). There were complaints about them being too CGI looking, if I'm not mistaken. I thunk that's the issue with giant squids: the fear of looking fake and too fantastical. I always wondered how the inclusion of the squid in DN might have influenced the series on the long run.
    mtm wrote: »
    They were correctly-sized Komodos, but they were also CG (I expect there were some close-ups of the real thing, I can't remember off hand).

    Ah, genuinely didn't know that!
  • Posts: 15,122
    echo wrote: »
    The squid would have looked ridiculous in 1962 but today (and in the future) it could be done right. We're in the world of deepfakes. (And the inevitable ink could hide any seams.)

    Of course it's a silly scene but so are crossing alligators and flipping scorpions.

    Ray Harryhausen would have made a nice one, but it might have turned the franchise into a more fantastical one, with a "critter of the movie" per each Bond film.
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    I do think we will see the squid someday.

    I'm of two minds about it. On the one hand it's one element of Fleming that hasn't been used, on the other hand people would probably complain of the CGI quality and giant squids are already dated as a trope.

    That and animal rights activists would complain. Although honestly, I’m tired of animals being used to torture and kill people. Especially when the animal gets needlessly killed itself.

    People do it pretty well by themselves. No need of animals.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,431
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Another missed opportunity is a third Dalton film... but between TLD and LTK. With the same Felix Leiter for all three.

    Did you listen to the Bond and Friends podcast where they did a dive into the scripts? Very interesting to see where they were taking Bond after LTK. It was back to the more fantastical elements of the series and creeping back to Roger Moore territory. Not sure Dalton would have been able to pull it off.

    It does seem a shame Tim never got one last one film.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    Posts: 3,789
    thedove wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Another missed opportunity is a third Dalton film... but between TLD and LTK. With the same Felix Leiter for all three.

    Did you listen to the Bond and Friends podcast where they did a dive into the scripts? Very interesting to see where they were taking Bond after LTK. It was back to the more fantastical elements of the series and creeping back to Roger Moore territory. Not sure Dalton would have been able to pull it off.

    It does seem a shame Tim never got one last one film.

    Agreed about that! Man, some sources even stating that it would've possibly be a Terminator rip-off with androids as villains and set in the Great Wall of China, I couldn't see that working, especially with Dalton.

    I mean, I couldn't see any Bond actors in that script, even Moore and Brosnan, I think Androids are just too far for a Bond film, that would've been bad, maybe more worse than the invisible car!
  • Posts: 15,122
    thedove wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Another missed opportunity is a third Dalton film... but between TLD and LTK. With the same Felix Leiter for all three.

    Did you listen to the Bond and Friends podcast where they did a dive into the scripts? Very interesting to see where they were taking Bond after LTK. It was back to the more fantastical elements of the series and creeping back to Roger Moore territory. Not sure Dalton would have been able to pull it off.

    It does seem a shame Tim never got one last one film.

    Haven't listened to them no. Don't think the project of a third Dalton film would have worked, from what I read about it. Not for Bond and certainly not for Dalton. I was thinking more of a serious and straight Cold War spy thriller after TLD, but clean of all the Mooresque elements that this movie had. And with a more menacing villain than in TLD. Whatever ome thinks of LTK (and I'm not a fan), I think the change of tone and setting was far too abrupt.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,304
    It was unexpected but Dalton got the perfect sendoff with LTK. I guess a bit like Lazenby.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited September 2023 Posts: 3,789
    Another of my other missed opportunities:

    1. Not having Felix Leiter in A View To A Kill, instead what we've got was a disposable, almost forgettable character in Chuck Lee, I mean this is Bond in America, and doing mission in America, Felix Leiter should be his contact there.

    2. John Barry not scoring both The Spy Who Loved Me and For Your Eyes Only, I don't mind this much, but imagine have we got Barry to score both films, no against Hamlisch and Conti, but their scores were to say, a bit dated, sounded very much 70's (Discotheque and Pop), with Barry, his scores were timeless and classics, and it's funny considering that Barry scored Moonraker, a film between TSWLM and FYEO.

    3. Not exploring Bond in the Royal Navy in the Craig Era, or to be specific, have Craig Bond wear a Naval Commander Battle Dress/Uniform.

    4. Removing unnecessary themes/tunes like the California Girls in the Snowboarding scene in A View To A Kill, and the Slide Whistle in The Man With The Golden Gun that almost interfered with the quality of the car stunt.

    5. Moore's Bond not driving an Aston Martin? Although I don't mind this much too, but in all of the Bonds, only Moore never got to drive one.
  • TheSkyfallen06TheSkyfallen06 Buenos Aires, Argentina.
    Posts: 1,101
    Ludovico wrote: »
    thedove wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Another missed opportunity is a third Dalton film... but between TLD and LTK. With the same Felix Leiter for all three.

    Did you listen to the Bond and Friends podcast where they did a dive into the scripts? Very interesting to see where they were taking Bond after LTK. It was back to the more fantastical elements of the series and creeping back to Roger Moore territory. Not sure Dalton would have been able to pull it off.

    It does seem a shame Tim never got one last one film.

    Haven't listened to them no. Don't think the project of a third Dalton film would have worked, from what I read about it. Not for Bond and certainly not for Dalton. I was thinking more of a serious and straight Cold War spy thriller after TLD, but clean of all the Mooresque elements that this movie had. And with a more menacing villain than in TLD. Whatever ome thinks of LTK (and I'm not a fan), I think the change of tone and setting was far too abrupt.

    Didn't one of the drafts have Bond in a rodeo?
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,431
    Yes @TheSkyfallen06 the second draft they tackled had Bond attending a rodeo in Las Vegas where the movie was set for the second act. I was disappointed as Vancouver featured in both drafts that were discussed. A missed opportunity to have Bond visit my homeland.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    Posts: 3,789
    So the closest we could get to the book Diamonds Are Forever with the rodeo thing, right? So, are the Spangled Mob there too?
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,431
    The mob does feature but not the Spangled type. Bond speaks in American and slang at times. Bill Koenig much of the dialogue doesn't ring true for Bond to say. There were also questionable racial slurs that were sprinkled through out the script.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,152
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    I think Androids are just too far for a Bond film, that would've been bad, maybe more worse than the invisible car!
    Apparently, Universal tried to impose a script doctor on The Bourne Identity that would've seen Bourne revealed as a robot! Thankfully, Matt Damon backed up Doug Liman on that one.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    I enjoy so many of these films, warts and all, that’d I’d change very little, except for this one missed opportunity: (I wrote this on another thread as well): I really wished Mr White had been revealed as Ernst Stavro Blofeld.

    I was convinced that’s what was inevitably going to happen.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,304
    I blame Mendes.
  • Posts: 15,122
    peter wrote: »
    I enjoy so many of these films, warts and all, that’d I’d change very little, except for this one missed opportunity: (I wrote this on another thread as well): I really wished Mr White had been revealed as Ernst Stavro Blofeld.

    I was convinced that’s what was inevitably going to happen.

    I'd rather have him as Mr White, as he was. But I wished Blofeld would have been way closer to the novel.
  • Posts: 1,993
    peter wrote: »
    I enjoy so many of these films, warts and all, that’d I’d change very little, except for this one missed opportunity: (I wrote this on another thread as well): I really wished Mr White had been revealed as Ernst Stavro Blofeld.

    I was convinced that’s what was inevitably going to happen.

    If White had been Blofeld, would that mean Bond had fallen for his adopted niece?
  • Posts: 15,122
    I always thought Mr White was too hands on to be Blofeld. I mean he shoots down Le Chiffre for crying out loud. That's a henchman's job. I can sort of understand why someone higher up in the food chain should do that, especially if he's got a history as a fighter of some kind (drafts of SP mentions he was in the French Foreign Legion, I believe?), but that should definitely be beneath the big boss.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    edited September 2023 Posts: 9,509
    CrabKey wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    I enjoy so many of these films, warts and all, that’d I’d change very little, except for this one missed opportunity: (I wrote this on another thread as well): I really wished Mr White had been revealed as Ernst Stavro Blofeld.

    I was convinced that’s what was inevitably going to happen.

    If White had been Blofeld, would that mean Bond had fallen for his adopted niece?

    Lol; I think it would have taken a different path... No foster brother, no Madeleine... Maybe this storyline happened in an alternative universe...

    @Ludovico , we all hafta start somewhere, including the Big Boss.

    White killed Le Chiffre in CR, but in QoS, he came off as far more sinister, and a puppet master. He knew who Mitchell was (so he was obviously someone high up the chain), and had someone on standby who helped him escape from his capture (therefore being someone important enough to save)... By the third film, in my imaginary world, he could have taken over Quantum and amalgamated it into a new criminal empire called, SPECTRE....
  • Posts: 12,473
    I’ve seen more than one suggest Mr. White should have been the Blofeld of Craig’s era, and I’m inclined to agree. The #1 issue of Craig’s tenure is bringing back Blofeld and SPECTRE just because they could, and doing it very forcefully. I would have liked to see Quantum just be the big bad organization, or just a couple more standalones, instead of the direction SP put things on. I give NTTD a lot of credit though for being as good as it is having to be a direct sequel to that.
  • Posts: 1,993
    peter wrote: »
    CrabKey wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    I enjoy so many of these films, warts and all, that’d I’d change very little, except for this one missed opportunity: (I wrote this on another thread as well): I really wished Mr White had been revealed as Ernst Stavro Blofeld.

    I was convinced that’s what was inevitably going to happen.

    If White had been Blofeld, would that mean Bond had fallen for his adopted niece?

    Lol; I think it would have taken a different path... No foster brother, no Madeleine... Maybe this storyline happened in an alternative universe...

    @Ludovico , we all hafta start somewhere, including the Big Boss.

    White killed Le Chiffre in CR, but in QoS, he came off as far more sinister, and a puppet master. He knew who Mitchell was (so he was obviously someone high up the chain), and had someone on standby who helped him escape from his capture (therefore being someone important enough to save)... By the third film, in my imaginary world, he could have taken over Quantum and amalgamated it into a new criminal empire called, SPECTRE....

    Agree. Your's is the better story.

  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    I give NTTD a lot of credit though for being as good as it is having to be a direct sequel to that.

    Agreed @FoxRox …. I was quite disappointed when I read that they were going to be running back Seydoux and Waltz. I thought there’s nothing to salvage.

    Apart from Fukunaga’s unfortunate private life, he is a very skilled storyteller and he was wholly successful (in my eyes), in bringing meaning and gravitas to Madeleine and Blofeld. I fell in love with NTTD the first time I saw it. And my affection has only grown…
  • Posts: 15,122
    peter wrote: »
    CrabKey wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    I enjoy so many of these films, warts and all, that’d I’d change very little, except for this one missed opportunity: (I wrote this on another thread as well): I really wished Mr White had been revealed as Ernst Stavro Blofeld.

    I was convinced that’s what was inevitably going to happen.

    If White had been Blofeld, would that mean Bond had fallen for his adopted niece?

    Lol; I think it would have taken a different path... No foster brother, no Madeleine... Maybe this storyline happened in an alternative universe...

    @Ludovico , we all hafta start somewhere, including the Big Boss.

    White killed Le Chiffre in CR, but in QoS, he came off as far more sinister, and a puppet master. He knew who Mitchell was (so he was obviously someone high up the chain), and had someone on standby who helped him escape from his capture (therefore being someone important enough to save)... By the third film, in my imaginary world, he could have taken over Quantum and amalgamated it into a new criminal empire called, SPECTRE....
    Yeah but by the event of CR it is implied that he's a high ranking member of the organisation, but not the boss. Besides he's Mr White, not Mr Blue. Okay the last one is a joke, but it was a theory I had at the time of QOS: we had a Mr White, now a Mr Greene, I thought a Monsieur de Bleuville or something would be revealed as Blofeld in a future movie.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,411
    FoxRox wrote: »
    I’ve seen more than one suggest Mr. White should have been the Blofeld of Craig’s era, and I’m inclined to agree. The #1 issue of Craig’s tenure is bringing back Blofeld and SPECTRE just because they could, and doing it very forcefully. I would have liked to see Quantum just be the big bad organization, or just a couple more standalones, instead of the direction SP put things on. I give NTTD a lot of credit though for being as good as it is having to be a direct sequel to that.

    I think they should have embraced the fact that they'd already established Quantum and have Spectre go to war with them, rather than just have Quantum evaporate. You'd probably have needed another film after Spectre and before NTTD for that though.
  • edited September 2023 Posts: 15,122
    mtm wrote: »
    FoxRox wrote: »
    I’ve seen more than one suggest Mr. White should have been the Blofeld of Craig’s era, and I’m inclined to agree. The #1 issue of Craig’s tenure is bringing back Blofeld and SPECTRE just because they could, and doing it very forcefully. I would have liked to see Quantum just be the big bad organization, or just a couple more standalones, instead of the direction SP put things on. I give NTTD a lot of credit though for being as good as it is having to be a direct sequel to that.

    I think they should have embraced the fact that they'd already established Quantum and have Spectre go to war with them, rather than just have Quantum evaporate. You'd probably have needed another film after Spectre and before NTTD for that though.

    Turning Quantum into Spectre was a bit shoddy, that said I didn't minded too much because I always understood that Quantum was a stand-in for Spectre due to legal restrictions. But it could have and should have been better explained and developed.

    I said it in the QOS thread: I would love to read a series of graphic novels showing Bond's missions set between the events of QOS and SF/SP. Not sure if it's a missed opportunity or merely an idea for fanfic, but there you go.
  • Posts: 2,165
    EoN should’ve sat on Spectre and used them for the next Bond, and have them as a permanent thread throughout their tenure, and continued with Quantum for Craig’s.
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