"You missed Mister Bond!"..."Did I?"...The Missed Opportunities of Never Say Never Again

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  • peterpeter Toronto
    edited November 2023 Posts: 9,509
    Many people didn't watch OHMSS. A sequel was pointless.



    @DEKE_RIVERS … not an accurate statement: (a quick wiki search):

    The film topped the United States box office when it opened with a gross of $1.2 million for the week.[63] It was the highest-grossing film in January 1970.[64] The film closed its box-office run with £750,000 in the United Kingdom (the highest-grossing film of the year),[65] $64.6 million worldwide,[66] half of You Only Live Twice's total gross,[65] but still one of the highest-grossing films of 1969.[67] It was one of the most popular movies in France in 1969, with admissions of 1,958,172.[68] Nonetheless, this was a considerable drop from You Only Live Twice.[69] After re-releases, the total box office was $82,000,000 worldwide.[70]

    There was a drop off, from YOLT, but I still believe it was within the top ten films from that year…. And didn’t Lazenby get some recognition from the Golden Globes?
  • Posts: 1,340
    YOLT and DAF made more money. It's a fact.

    Yes, many people didn't watch OHMSS.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited November 2023 Posts: 3,789
    007HallY wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    I mean, Bond does technically do something in the third act - he just fails to get his message to Felix and lucks out with Pussy being ‘turned’ by him. For me it’s actually less contrived than in the novel where, let’s be honest, it’s highly unlikely his message would have gotten to Felix at all, much less on time. It’s a pretty cool subversion that keeps the tension.

    I mean, it’s certainly not an Indians Jones in Raiders thing where one can argue he’s inconsequential to the outcome of the film. Not that that even matters if true.

    Maybe not Felix but the other CIA agents disguised in surrounding the area, and whether Bond's message have gotten to Felix or not, at least he did something, he proved his skills as a spy, it's a tense moment, he did undercover and gathered information, that's the most important of it.

    I can't remember what Bond does in the third act, kill Oddjob? Have Goldfinger sucked out of the plane? But I looked at those as mainly caused by luck, well, the man always survived by luck.

    And to have Bond being highlighted here as the best is simply not true, cool and suave, yes, but it's not the best Bond portrayal.

    I haven't watched Indiana Jones, so I couldn't comment on that.

    I think by the Raiders comparison I just meant it doesn’t matter if one is enjoying the film.

    I mean, the CIA were never going to intervene without getting the message. In the film they even misread the situation entirely and likely would have left Bond to it if Galore hadn’t stepped in.

    Like I said, Bond’s not a character who often thinks three steps ahead. He usually goes head first into a situation and has to quickly work his way out with what’s around him. There’s even times in the series when he makes mistakes or stuff doesn’t quite go to plan. Luck and gadgets often are a great deal of what gets him out. Like I said it keeps a good deal of tension when you know Bond’s plan has basically failed.

    I've edited my comment above, I get the Bond is not usually a three steps ahead, although like what I've said, it showed some bits in FRWL and maybe in DN, but what I do want to see him doing in that film is to at least be a useful asset, not became passive.

    That's it, Felix Leiter and the CIA suddenly became the hero in the film, and you have suddenly Pussy Galore too being a heroine too who saved the day, not even Bond helped to foil Goldfinger's plans in the end, that's Felix Leiter and Pussy Galore (whom instead of helping Bond, decided to side on with Felix instead, because you know, what would she expects?).

    In the book, I'll still stand that maybe like what I've said the CIA were probably disguised there and to see Bond working his way to them is really a realistic scene in the book with full of tension, I just liked the scene where Bond used his spy skills to gather information, be an undercover, and to cooperate with CIA, help them, while one may not sure if it would be successful or not, but still, there's Bond's presence throughout, you know that he's doing something.

    Have the villain turned him into a hostage is just a wrong move, let alone putting him inside a cell where he's just there, doing nothing.

    I don’t think Bond’s completely passive. Him not getting the note out is more a subversion and Galore’s part in the finale a sort of twist. But he does try to get out of things. He even blags his way out of not getting killed, and without him Galore presumably wouldn’t have gone to the CIA.

    But honestly, it might just be a matter of personal preference. I actually like that we see Bond legitimately alone. That and I’ve always found Bond’s ability to think three steps ahead in DN a bit counterintuitive.

    Sure, the CIA may not accept the note, but the thing is, is there anything that Bond could do at the time? Yes.

    Yes, he blagged his way to avoid getting killed by simply selling out MI6, but does it went to a better effect? No, it makes things worst, because he's held captive and hostage for most of the time, it's not a help, more like a dumb decision from Bond, he did two mistakes: Selling out and betraying MI6, and he lets himself got captured.

    Of course, he turned Pussy Galore into a straight gal in that barn, using his magic instrument, much more worse move than how Bond tricked Solitaire with a stack of fake, identical tarot cards in LALD, a not so wise move to turn a villain into good side, more like again, a contrived fantasy.

    No problem with Galore subversion in the finale, but what I just want is to have Bond do something, the thing is Bond just showed there being helpless, at least even in the bomb detonation scene have him detonate it, not wait for a deux ex machina to comes out of nowhere and have it done for him (for such a Secret Agent/00 agent, Naval Commander like Bond, he should've known it).

    Sure, it's a matter of personal preference, but I just prefer what I've read in the book, than how it turned out in the film, for me, it's not a good Bond portrayal, more like a betrayal to the character, I'm not saying he should be a superhero or what, but at least for a secret agent, have him do something helpful.

    Bond being three step ahead in DN is not counterintuitive for me though, he studied such things and he began to figured things out, and that's how he made his move, at least from my understanding, but again, it's a matter of preference.

    Again, a matter of personal preference, but for me, one of the missed opportunities.

    For me personally it’s about how I feel when watching a film. When I see Bond captive in GF’s third act, his attempts to escape or get the word out failing etc. I feel a good deal of tension. Same for when Bond is unsure how to diffuse the bomb before the CIA step in. There’s a genuine edge of your seat suspense there that I don’t think the previous Bond films had quite nailed to the same extent.

    That’s why I compared it to DN. Bond being a step ahead in almost every situation during the first two acts nullifies some of that tension - that lingering sense that you’re not wholly sure whether Bond’s going to come out alive. I think it’s that feeling that the writers prioritised when adapting GF.

    I don't feel it that way though, sure there needs for Bond to be in danger and it makes the tension, but to just have him captured all the time and doing nothing is a different territory.

    If I want tension scenes, the later films have that where Bond is in near death experiences or needs to save something or someone, but not to watch him be passive for a long portion of time in the film.
    mtm wrote: »
    Yeah, although it is arguable that Bond doesn't do all that much which is effective in GF (let's not forget that he does kill Oddjob, and getting him out of the way might have given the Americans time to defuse the bomb which they may not have had otherwise) I don't actually see that as being all that massive a problem with the film. It's still an exciting adventure; I don't think 007 has to be all-conquering and right and perfect in order for it to be that. And as you say, that he can fail or be captured adds tension.

    It's not tension, it's a problem for me, Bond was sent to this mission, so he should do the work too, one (including me) might expect him to do the work too and help the Americans solve the problem.

    If anything, he shouldn't be in this mission because he never did anything useful to them, if the CIA could just do it by themselves then why to include Bond? He made more trouble than help.

    If not for him, the Masterson sisters would've still be alive, and the CIA could've easily finish the job by themselves, Pussy Galore, for sure they could've done something to convince her to come to their side maybe by arresting her and interrogating her.
    007HallY wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Yeah, although it is arguable that Bond doesn't do all that much which is effective in GF (let's not forget that he does kill Oddjob, and getting him out of the way might have given the Americans time to defuse the bomb which they may not have had otherwise) I don't actually see that as being all that massive a problem with the film. It's still an exciting adventure; I don't think 007 has to be all-conquering and right and perfect in order for it to be that. And as you say, that he can fail or be captured adds tension.

    I guess a nitpick I may have, and I'm not sure it's a missed opportunity even, but I'd like for there to have been a slightly more convincing reason for Goldfinger not to laser through him on the table. I don't know if I entirely buy it, although I guess it does pay off when Felix spies Bond being given mojitos on the veranda.
    To be honest, considering the source material they had to work with I think they did a great job at getting Bond out of the laser situation. Not sure if the world was crying out to see Goldfinger randomly take Bond on as his assistant for no apparent reason.

    Back then, people just wanted Bond to be fun, that's all, now, people are realizing things and reassessing Bond films and Bond being an incompetent spy in this film really stick like sore thumb nowadays.

    Bond being Goldfinger's assistant is one of the most ingenious move that Fleming had done, really, it's almost realistic.

    The film may improve on Goldfinger's plot from the book, or Bond witnessing Jill's death, but the rest was better in the book, it worked in the book.

  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited November 2023 Posts: 3,789
    Double post
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited November 2023 Posts: 16,383
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    It's not tension, it's a problem for me, Bond was sent to this mission, so he should do the work too, one (including me) might expect him to do the work too and help the Americans solve the problem.

    If anything, he shouldn't be in this mission because he never did anything useful to them, if the CIA could just do it by themselves then why to include Bond? He made more trouble than help.

    If not for him, the Masterson sisters would've still be alive, and the CIA could've easily finish the job by themselves, Pussy Galore, for sure they could've done something to convince her to come to their side maybe by arresting her and interrogating her.

    Without running the film through in my head, would the CIA even know about Goldfinger if it wasn't for Bond and MI6? Felix picks up Bond's homer signal- without that the CIA would have no idea to even suspect GF of being up to anything on American soil. Without Bond's presence, Fort Knox would be toast.
    And Bond's main move in the film is to turn Pussy to the good side (so to speak) - that is something he actively does and ultimately saves the day by doing it.

    I know you'll keep arguing by just saying the same thing again as you always do, but for a change actually consider what I pointed out there.
  • Posts: 15,117
    YOLT and DAF made more money. It's a fact.

    Yes, many people didn't watch OHMSS.

    There's a difference between "making less money" and "many people didn't watch the movie". OHMSS wasn't as successful as YOLT or DAF, the public apparently didn't accept the lead, it doesn't mean it was a flop. A sequel might have been accepted with Connery as the lead. I'd argue that only Connery could sell DAF.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,297
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    thedove wrote: »
    Interesting take @Ludovico I was thinking some might have some missed opportunities starting with TB but YOLT definitely has some for sure. I was going to keep going in chronological order for shits and giggles! LOL!

    Maybe I'm too indulgent because I love TB, but I think it follows the formula that made the previous movies work, for one, and it's also very faithful to the source material. It's only in YOLT that they start seriously diverging from the original novel to do their own thing, and that they go very far using sci-fi. But even though I'm not a fan of YOLT, it's very iconic, so maybe I'm too harsh on it. DAF might be the first true missed opportunity: they could have done a straight vengeance story, as long as they had Connery as Bond I suspect the audiences would have accepted it.

    Why? a sequel was a bad idea and they had Connery after all.

    Anyway, a straight vengeance story didn't work 20 years later.
    Not sure what you mean: why wouldn't a sequel be a bad idea? I think what audiences disliked about OHMSS at the time was Lazenby, or rather him not being Connery. And if you're referring to LTK, it had its whole set of issues, irrespective to the vengeance aspect (which yes was getting a tired trope at the time). I think Connery playing Bond avenging Tracy would have sold at least just as well as him playing in a parody. Even if he'd sleepwalk through the movie.

    I don't think Connery wanted to use Lazenby's backstory. If Connery's Bond had actually romanced Tracy, then it would have been a different story.
  • edited November 2023 Posts: 1,340
    Ludovico wrote: »
    YOLT and DAF made more money. It's a fact.

    Yes, many people didn't watch OHMSS.

    There's a difference between "making less money" and "many people didn't watch the movie". OHMSS wasn't as successful as YOLT or DAF, the public apparently didn't accept the lead, it doesn't mean it was a flop. A sequel might have been accepted with Connery as the lead. I'd argue that only Connery could sell DAF.

    There's no difference. OK? Less money means less people.

    There were no VHS or DVDs. A lot of people didn't see the movie, literally.


    And they had Connery for the last time.

    Many people don't like DAF, I know, but come on!



  • Posts: 15,117
    echo wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    thedove wrote: »
    Interesting take @Ludovico I was thinking some might have some missed opportunities starting with TB but YOLT definitely has some for sure. I was going to keep going in chronological order for shits and giggles! LOL!

    Maybe I'm too indulgent because I love TB, but I think it follows the formula that made the previous movies work, for one, and it's also very faithful to the source material. It's only in YOLT that they start seriously diverging from the original novel to do their own thing, and that they go very far using sci-fi. But even though I'm not a fan of YOLT, it's very iconic, so maybe I'm too harsh on it. DAF might be the first true missed opportunity: they could have done a straight vengeance story, as long as they had Connery as Bond I suspect the audiences would have accepted it.

    Why? a sequel was a bad idea and they had Connery after all.

    Anyway, a straight vengeance story didn't work 20 years later.
    Not sure what you mean: why wouldn't a sequel be a bad idea? I think what audiences disliked about OHMSS at the time was Lazenby, or rather him not being Connery. And if you're referring to LTK, it had its whole set of issues, irrespective to the vengeance aspect (which yes was getting a tired trope at the time). I think Connery playing Bond avenging Tracy would have sold at least just as well as him playing in a parody. Even if he'd sleepwalk through the movie.

    I don't think Connery wanted to use Lazenby's backstory. If Connery's Bond had actually romanced Tracy, then it would have been a different story.

    Well that another missed opportunity.
    Ludovico wrote: »
    YOLT and DAF made more money. It's a fact.

    Yes, many people didn't watch OHMSS.

    There's a difference between "making less money" and "many people didn't watch the movie". OHMSS wasn't as successful as YOLT or DAF, the public apparently didn't accept the lead, it doesn't mean it was a flop. A sequel might have been accepted with Connery as the lead. I'd argue that only Connery could sell DAF.

    There's no difference. OK? Less money means less people.

    There were no VHS or DVDs. A lot of people didn't see the movie, literally.


    And they had Connery for the last time.

    Many people don't like DAF, I know, but come on!



    Calm down. There's actually a difference: you're confusing comparison with intrinsic popularity. Many bands were less popular than the Beatles, it doesn't mean they were not popular bands in their own right.
  • Posts: 1,340
    Ludovico wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    thedove wrote: »
    Interesting take @Ludovico I was thinking some might have some missed opportunities starting with TB but YOLT definitely has some for sure. I was going to keep going in chronological order for shits and giggles! LOL!

    Maybe I'm too indulgent because I love TB, but I think it follows the formula that made the previous movies work, for one, and it's also very faithful to the source material. It's only in YOLT that they start seriously diverging from the original novel to do their own thing, and that they go very far using sci-fi. But even though I'm not a fan of YOLT, it's very iconic, so maybe I'm too harsh on it. DAF might be the first true missed opportunity: they could have done a straight vengeance story, as long as they had Connery as Bond I suspect the audiences would have accepted it.

    Why? a sequel was a bad idea and they had Connery after all.

    Anyway, a straight vengeance story didn't work 20 years later.
    Not sure what you mean: why wouldn't a sequel be a bad idea? I think what audiences disliked about OHMSS at the time was Lazenby, or rather him not being Connery. And if you're referring to LTK, it had its whole set of issues, irrespective to the vengeance aspect (which yes was getting a tired trope at the time). I think Connery playing Bond avenging Tracy would have sold at least just as well as him playing in a parody. Even if he'd sleepwalk through the movie.

    I don't think Connery wanted to use Lazenby's backstory. If Connery's Bond had actually romanced Tracy, then it would have been a different story.

    Well that another missed opportunity.
    Ludovico wrote: »
    YOLT and DAF made more money. It's a fact.

    Yes, many people didn't watch OHMSS.

    There's a difference between "making less money" and "many people didn't watch the movie". OHMSS wasn't as successful as YOLT or DAF, the public apparently didn't accept the lead, it doesn't mean it was a flop. A sequel might have been accepted with Connery as the lead. I'd argue that only Connery could sell DAF.

    There's no difference. OK? Less money means less people.

    There were no VHS or DVDs. A lot of people didn't see the movie, literally.


    And they had Connery for the last time.

    Many people don't like DAF, I know, but come on!



    Calm down. There's actually a difference: you're confusing comparison with intrinsic popularity. Many bands were less popular than the Beatles, it doesn't mean they were not popular bands in their own right.


    But they had The Beatles!
  • edited November 2023 Posts: 4,139
    SIS_HQ wrote: »

    Back then, people just wanted Bond to be fun, that's all, now, people are realizing things and reassessing Bond films and Bond being an incompetent spy in this film really stick like sore thumb nowadays.

    Bond being Goldfinger's assistant is one of the most ingenious move that Fleming had done, really, it's almost realistic.

    The film may improve on Goldfinger's plot from the book, or Bond witnessing Jill's death, but the rest was better in the book, it worked in the book.

    Hmm, not too sure about it being one of Fleming’s most realistic ideas. Even in the context of the book Goldfinger at first refuses to bring Bond in, and it’s only afterwards when Bond wakes up that he essentially says he’s changed his mind (for no real reason). I’d argue it’s one of his weirdest and certainly most contrived moments of the novels, haha! I’ve not heard anyone use this film as an example of Bond being an incompetent spy if I’m honest….

    Anyway, like I said to each their own. I just prioritise how I feel when watching the film and it works for me on that level. I’m not sure if it’s a case where I’ve not thought about it much, or you’ve thought about it a bit too much long after watching the film. But yeah, that’s what it comes down to for me :)
  • goldenswissroyalegoldenswissroyale Switzerland
    Posts: 4,483
    About GF: I also feel that the film would be better when Bond wouldn't be captured for so long. I definitely prefer the first half of GF despite the cool Fort Knox setting.
    However, working as Goldinger's "secretary" wouldn't be better, imo. I didn't like that part in the novel. It didn't make any sense to me that the super villain would let Bond work for him.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,297
    GF is a triumph of style over substance. I still think that it and OHMSS remain the only films that improved on their respective novels.

    And the transition from the title song to Barry's first cue with those visuals has never been bettered, perhaps never will.

    No notes on GF.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,383
    echo wrote: »
    GF is a triumph of style over substance.

    That's all Bond films!
  • Mentioned before Goldfinger just stands as an odd one out for Connery's run in the 1960's (and DAF). Just doesn't hold the interest like Dr No or FRWL. Thunderball is weighed down by too many mundane underwater sequences but it still captivates elsewhere. YOLT while only set in Japan and the Orient keeps Bond and the viewer busy. Like DAF, Goldfinger has it's moments but largely two hours of Bond seeming uninterested and providing the watcher with little by way of enthralment or tangible action.

    People and fans invariably insist it's one of the very best of the entire franchise but could never concur. Pity is FRWL was arguably Connery's best and finest hour as 007 and the
    immediate successor was lame and devoid of excitement or something to keep the viewer content for the majority of it's duration. It's just one fans opinion, many wouldn't agree or find fault but been with the series long enough and taken in enough views to allow opportunity on the title/s in question.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,297
    Bond weaves kind of a path of destruction through the Masterson family in GF. I remember someone on these boards imagining a revenge story by the remaining Mastersons against Bond.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited November 2023 Posts: 16,383
    Ha! That's great. I kind of imagine it a bit like the scene from Fish Called Wanda where Palin's character is trying to kill the old lady but keeps accidentally killing her dogs instead- I imagine various Masterson sisters attempting to assassinate Bond but he accidentally keeps killing them without even realising.
  • Agent_Zero_OneAgent_Zero_One Ireland
    Posts: 554
    thedove wrote: »
    IMG_3869-scaled.jpeg

    Lets move on to the second film in the series and dive into what, if any missed opportunities there may have been? In many people's eyes this is a classic and one that is near the top of most fans lists.

    But, was there a missed opportunity here? Was there something that might have made the film even better? Or is FRWL the classic that didn't miss any notes?

    What say you mi6 community? What are the missed opportunities of From Russia with Love?
    Not something I truly wish we had instead, but the book ending would've been great to see onscreen in itself.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,426
    That was golden! Interesting discussion and side discussion into the movie Goldfinger.

    Lets turn our attention to the biggest Bond of them all...Thunderball!

    1IeW9sfnTfANNRd9nC6kO0Ww9S0.jpg

    We have Connery at the top of his game as Bond. We have a great female antagonist as Fiona Volpe. Ken Adams created some wonderful sea vehicles and we have an Oscar win for Special Effects. But do we have some missed opportunities with this film?

    What say you mi6 community? What are the missed opportunities of Thunderball?
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited November 2023 Posts: 6,297
    A few things come to mind:

    The Mr. Kiss Kiss Bang Bang song with lyrics. I like it better than Tom Jones' song. And the Dionne Warwick version has her singing at the peak of her career.

    An additional scene with Paula, so we feel her death more keenly.

    Much, much, much shorter underwater scenes.

    It's a bit unfair because if I recall correctly underwater action had not really been seen onscreen before, so they gave audiences a *lot* of it. Way too much.

    A better, and younger, actor playing Largo. NSNA did improve on TB in this respect.

    The final confrontation scene on the Disco doesn't quite work either (not enough footage shot?) but I do think this plays out better above water than underwater a la NSNA. And "Well, too late to learn" is a good line.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited November 2023 Posts: 16,383
    Oh, so much with TB.

    For me it just doesn't learn the lessons of the success of GF enough. People loved Bond having the cool gadgets in GF, so in TB they give all the cool gadgets to the baddies for some reason. A motorbike with rockets, a yacht that splits in two etc. He gets boring stuff like a pill. Yes, he gets a jetpack, but he doesn't use it for anything useful- he could have used a ladder instead.
    In GF we have 007 actually handcuffed to a nuclear bomb! But in TB.. the bombs are... somewhere else. We never really see them and Bond is nowhere near them; there's not much immediate threat.
    In GF we have larger-than-life baddies who jump off the screen like Oddjob and Goldfinger himself, in TB we have Vargas whose thing is that he, er, "doesn't do" anything, and Largo himself who is vaguely menacing but not really much of a presence. Fiona is amazing and the scenes between her and Bond sparkle: and maybe the biggest missed opportunity is not having her as the main baddie instead of Largo.

    There's good stuff in there; the locations look stunning and Connery is at the height of his powers, but it almost needs a ground-up reworking to make the most of the opportunities that GF gave the series. It's too close to the book and feels slightly pedestrian after GF had pointed the way to success on the big screen; it needs to be madder but it's slightly half-hearted.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,426
    Yes the song! I too love the Dionne Warwick song and felt it was brilliantly woven into the soundtrack of the film by Barry. I appreciate the bravado of Tom Jones but I though the Mr. Kiss Kiss Bang Bang was the better song.

    The part that drags for me is the downing of the Vulcan. The water landing, the men coming to plane, the bombs, the net all of that feels like an eternity and causes me to drift off, surely there was a way to trim it back.

    In TB I believe SPECTRE gives the NATO powers a week to come up with the ransom. There never seems to be urgency expect for the Home Secretary shouting at M.

    I agree with you @mtm Bond never feels to be in much danger, save for the Junk-A_Noo sequence when he gets grazed in the leg and is evading Fiona and her goons.

    The energy wanes when Fiona is disposed of. Largo doesn't have a larger than life persona like GF did.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited November 2023 Posts: 16,383
    Also, where are the cool sets and lairs? Goldfinger was packed with them, but there's no scope for anything like that here apart from Spectre's meeting room, and that's another thing which makes it feel a bit more ordinary than GF was. Maybe Largo should have had some sort of underwater hangar to store the Vulcan in or something, some cool base for Bond to infiltrate and for Ken Adam to design. Maybe beneath Palmyra.

    Also, on the jet pack thing, a simple fix: have the chateau that Bond confronts Bouvar in have a moat. That way the baddies lock it down and he has no way of escaping across the moat, so the jetpack actually comes in useful. Instead of the Aston, have his french agent ladyfriend drive some convertible car which he then lands in whilst she's driving away from pursuing baddies- more exciting. Bond unclips the jetpack and it lands on the road behind them, he turns and fires as the baddies drive towards it and it explodes, forcing them off the road. Cut to titles.
  • Spot on @mtm, Thunderball is a film riddled to the brim with missed opportunities. I’d even go so far as to say it’s the weakest of the 60’s era in general. Where Goldfinger felt as if more time and care had been put into the production, Thunderball instead feels bloated and rushed.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited November 2023 Posts: 16,383
    It does, and yet it's pretty much using a script from the 50s, before the Bond films got going, so it's not learning those lessons from the other films- it's not even as pleasingly bonkers as Dr No. Even the evil plan is pretty boring really- just steal some bombs and ask for ransom. After Goldfinger's rather ingenious plan of irradiating the gold reserve, it lacks sparkle, as well as removing the threat from Bond himself.

    Just a really quick back-of-a-fag-packet idea: how about Largo reveals that although they've asked for a ransom the plan is to actually let the London bomb off anyway, as cover for some big theft from the Bank of England or something. Meanwhile the second bomb is still in the Bahamas, and they intend to set that one off in order to spark a mega tidal wave, which will take out most of Miami and the coast of Florida (no idea if that makes sense, it doesn't matter!). Spectre have massive interests in construction companies, so they'll swoop in and rebuild, as well as buying up as much land as possible at bargain rates, earning a hundred times what they're asking for in ransom- something they can repeat in Cuba too when Havana is destroyed similarly - they have no allegiances to East or West. And they'll blame the 'accidental' detonation of the bomb on the interference of British agent James Bond, who they had lured there with Domino- thus getting revenge on 007 for stopping their schemes in Jamaica and Turkey, as well as ruining the international reputation of the UK and increasing British tensions with the US.
    So, probably too complex, but it makes their plan a bit more dastardly, and it brings the threat right to 007's doorstep, makes it a little personal even, and increases the stakes for the end of the film, as he and everyone else on the island faces imminent death. Maybe Largo even plans to make his getaway in the Vulcan? Have Bond blow it up with his jetpack or something, I don't know :D Maybe he drives the hydrofoil at full speed at Palmyra, hops off, and it jumps into the air and blows up the Vulcan.

    Or maybe: Largo thinks the plan is to ransom Washington as they say, but Fiona is actually closer to Number One and reveals the real plan to blow up Nassau and blame Bond for it to 007 and an aghast Largo. She kills Largo when he tries to get to the bomb to disarm it, and makes for a getaway in the Vulcan (instead of a water landing they've actually got a proper runway complete with airtight dome at the end which rises out of the sea)- Bond gives chase and destroys the Vulcan with Fiona in it.
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 14,571
    I'm content with this film, I like it a lot. I suppose from a gadget guy's perspective I would've placed the (ultimately unused) explosive spear tips somewhere they could be seen in the actual film, because they're pretty cool props. Makes me wonder if the crew intended for there to be more explosions during the underwater finale, but left that out due to time restraints.
  • Posts: 15,117
    Well I cannot disagree more about the gadgets: in a universe where they are used for espionage and covert activities, it makes sense that the villains have them too and that they can be just as cool and handy as Bond's. After all, you want your hero to have the odds stacked against him, not be in an even match. In many ways, the villains has to be superior: stronger, smarter, more resources.

    In fact, it's a missed opportunity after FRWL and to a lesser extend TB: have villains with gadgets to make Bond's life more difficult. Imagine a Q branch for SPECTRE or the Janus Syndicate. That could make for really interesting scenes.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,383
    It's fine for the baddies to have gadgets, but I don't think they should be cooler than Bond's. The films are a celebration of his cool after all, not the baddies. I wouldn't want Goldfinger to have had the DB5, after all.
  • Posts: 15,117
    mtm wrote: »
    It's fine for the baddies to have gadgets, but I don't think they should be cooler than Bond's. The films are a celebration of his cool after all, not the baddies. I wouldn't want Goldfinger to have had the DB5, after all.

    "Cool" is a vague term. What one finds cool another might find vulgar or silly. I think the gadgets have to reflect the nature of the people using them, somewhat: the garrot, the poisoned tip shoe for SPECTRE operatives, the briefcase for MI6 agents. Nasty sneaky weapons used to murder versus something used for espionage in hostile environment. Goldfinger has a gadgets car of sorts: his golden Rolls Royce, used for smuggling gold. In TB, the villains have overall fitting gadgets: the Disco Volante is a battleship hiding as a yacht like Largo is a criminal hiding as a wealthy legitimate businessman, for instance.

    On a side note, that is the single one thing that I liked about DAD, albeit the execution had lots of problems: but two gadgets laden cars fighting was an inspired idea.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,383
    Ludovico wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    It's fine for the baddies to have gadgets, but I don't think they should be cooler than Bond's. The films are a celebration of his cool after all, not the baddies. I wouldn't want Goldfinger to have had the DB5, after all.

    "Cool" is a vague term. What one finds cool another might find vulgar or silly. I think the gadgets have to reflect the nature of the people using them, somewhat: the garrot, the poisoned tip shoe for SPECTRE operatives, the briefcase for MI6 agents. Nasty sneaky weapons used to murder versus something used for espionage in hostile environment. Goldfinger has a gadgets car of sorts: his golden Rolls Royce, used for smuggling gold. In TB, the villains have overall fitting gadgets: the Disco Volante is a battleship hiding as a yacht like Largo is a criminal hiding as a wealthy legitimate businessman, for instance.

    And do you find those to be vulgar or silly?

    I don’t know, there’s probably a number of films after this where the baddies have the better gadgets, but right after GF it seems an odd choice.
    Bond has the jetpack which is impressive, and yet it’s not very impressive onscreen somehow. And it also promises a wilder ride than the rest of the film really delivers.
    One thing about the jetpack too: why do they awkwardly try to put it in the boot? It’s not very Bond- usually he’d just dump something like that once he’s used it and drive off.
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