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Big Mi6 James Bond film ranking game - A few stats!

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  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,169
    I had FRWL as my number 1, with OHMSS coming in at number 4.
    Clearly these are both top tier Bond films for many fans of the series.

    As others have said, and rightfully so. Thank you so very much for hosting this again @GoldenGun the work and dedication that goes into such a thread is truly appreciated and is always a lot of fun. Great work as always, my friend.
  • 007HallY007HallY
    edited September 11 Posts: 4,300
    mtm wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    Unlike FRWL I do have some obvious criticisms of the film. Lazenby, unfortunately, is one. He's not a good actor at all. He's not charismatic, has little screen presence, and unfortunately during a few scenes this lack of ability spoils things.

    One such moment for me is when Bond gets annoyed at M and threatens to resign. Lazenby plays the scene so awkwardly you barely get a sense that Bond is even annoyed, much less angry enough to do something impulsive and major. He certainly doesn't come across as jaded like in the novel. It's should come across as a big moment but it leaves little impact, and I think it's due to Lazenby's bad performance.

    It's obvious when Bond arrives at Piz Gloria the film sees fit to dub Lazenby. It's a really silly decision, but another huge problem is that Lazenby has no ability to play these scenes. Connery and Moore in particular were good at showing Bond having to play a 'character' at certain points. These actors knew that to make that idea work their Bond still had to be in there. They would give the audience those little Bondian looks beneath the played up accents, perhaps a wry reading of a line or two. Lazenby, on the other hand, is too one note. When 'Hillary Bray' is meant to be airsick he doesn't play this as Bond looking out the window curiously and covering it up, but instead just look nervous. Unfortunately during parts of those Piz Gloria scenes I always feel Lazenby's Bond gets a bit lost and almost becomes Hillary Bray. It takes away a bit of the tension.

    I've seen people praise Lazenby's acting when he's being chased through the ski rink/the camera flashes. For me that's another example of his lack of ability. Bond wouldn't look as terrified as he does (it's far too big a reaction. Again, the likes of Connery and Craig were great at underplaying things as Bond).

    The PTS is a bit hit and miss for me. It doesn't help that they're trying to evoke how Connery's Bond was introduced in DN with the shots of his hands and the cigarette being lit. It doesn't quite work for me and doesn't succeed in giving Lazenby's Bond his own identity. Like many others I absolutely hate the 'this never happened to the other fella' line.

    Overall though, it's a great Bond film. It has sunk a few places for me just due to my issues with it, but I'd say it's also a testament to how well crafted this film is that even with these issues it remains as gripping as it is.

    Excellent points about Lazenby: he is basically just playing Sean Connery's Ian Fleming's James Bond 007 rather than his own version, which leaves him hamstrung; although I don't think he really had the skill to create his own version anyway.
    Really George Baker should be given a fair bit of credit as he's playing Bond for a fair portion of the film, and injecting a lot more comic ability and warmth into it than the Dave Prowse lumbering around in the suit! :D
    I would love to have seen a version with Sean or Roger playing the lead in this, it would be transformative for all of the reasons you mention. But then maybe it was too early for Roger as the makers seemed, as you say, to be tied to trying to recreate Sean's Bond.

    One thing about this film is that the whole section where Bond is trying to escape from Piz Gloria, from the cable car business, the amazing ski chase, Tracy rescuing Bond in the village, the car chase etc. is probably the tensest and most exciting portion of a Bond film so far to this point- it's just so brilliantly evoked that he has to get away. And that's despite Blofeld's evil plan being a pretty unconvincingly weak and small scale world domination plan which is never even demonstrated to us. It's just that more than ever before I think we're incredibly aware that Bond is in serious danger here and out on his own, and that tension just makes for more excitement. I would say that something like the ski chase in FYEO is potentially better realised from a stunt and sequence point of view, but it's far less crucial to the story of film than it is here, which means we can't get as invested. Here it really is very well done.

    The ski chase and what comes after are both absolutely brilliant, agreed. I'll say as well that regardless of my criticisms of Lazenby the filmmaking in OHMSS drives it. A moment I always remember from that film is Bond going through the ski rink, grabbing a drink, and huddling onto a chair, pulling up his collar etc. We see the editing cutting increasingly rapidly to the henchmen/Bunt before Tracy appears. It's all in the edit/basic direction (in fact I always remember Lazenby's weirdly flat delivery of 'there are people out there' which undercuts the moment ever so slightly). But it's so well done on a cinematic level.

    Haven't even watched OHMSS in a while and I still remember it vividly. It shows how much the filmmaking can impact a Bond movie. OHMSS is a wonderful film. I wish the lead had been stronger but it's great that we have this film in the Bond series.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited September 12 Posts: 3,800
    What Lazenby can do was to play vulnerability, that I don't think could be done convincingly by others, what I mean by convincingly is if people would buy it, I buy it with Lazenby, not sure about others, I don't buy Connery or Moore falling in love or seeing them scared and fearing for their lives in that skating rink, their Bond films already proved the way they've played their Bonds (Moore and Connery), maybe another actor (outside the Bond radar) could've done it, maybe George Baker? Or other actors in 1969 but none in those actors who had played Bond already, actually Moore was unconvincing in the roles he had played with the needing of being 'serious and dramatic' and often played it one note.

    Lazenby at least played it with naturalism and in a realistic way.

    It's perfect as it is.

    Regarding Blofeld's plan @mtm, at least the film made it a bit rational to have United Nations involved with Blofeld asking for amnesty of his past crimes, it's one of my complaints in the book, with Blofeld doing all grandeur measures just to obtain a title by threatening the British Royal Family, even it's explained in long, sluggish details in the book, the plot still didn't makes sense, just useless, I'll be honest, I don't know why the book gets so many praise, maybe because it showcased Bond's vulnerability of falling in love, but he did it in the early books too, how many times had he fallen in love in the books long before OHMSS? And I think Fleming showcased better romances in the earlier books with Vesper, Gala Brand and Tiffany Case, his romance with Tracy was rushed and irrational, very unrealistic and undercooked, Or it has something to do with Fleming's descriptions? But I think Fleming always did that excellent prose and descriptions in his earlier books, so it's not something new already when OHMSS was published, it's just an amalgamation of the best aspects of the earlier Bond books all mixed in this book, like greatest hits, all but recycled.

    The characters were not fleshed out, mostly plot devices (the characters there just functioned to advance the story, nothing more than that) and mostly told in expositions by the other characters, the irrationality of some characters, Tracy in particular, I don't liked her actions in the book, then the less said about Blofeld, the better, then too many plot holes happened in the book too, the Christmas theme was heavily given a prominence in the book that it gets on the way of the plot (I don't need discussing things about 'Nutcrackers' and such).

    It's one of the reasons why I love this film so much, it managed to improve and elevate the overrated yet weak and bad novel, in my opinion.

    Who would've thought that one of my lowest ranked Fleming book (ranked #10 out of 12 books) is my #1 ranked Bond film?
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    edited September 13 Posts: 7,207
    Thanks again, chaps!

    Now, in 2021 this community participated in my very first Bond ranking game, and these were the results:

    1. OHMSS
    2. CR
    3. FRWL
    4. GF
    5. GE
    6. TLD
    7. DN
    8. TSWLM
    9. SF
    10. TB
    11. LALD
    12. LTK
    13. FYEO
    14. QOS
    15. OP
    16. MR
    17. YOLT
    18. TND
    19. TMWTGG
    20. TWINE
    21. AVTAK
    22. SP
    23. DAF
    24. DAD
    25. NSNA
    -
    If we take NSNA out of the equation here for a moment, here's how they compare to this year's ranking:

    1. OHMSS (0)
    2. FRWL (+1)
    3. CR (-1)
    4. TLD (+2)
    5. GF (-1)
    6. DN (+1)
    7. TSWLM (+1)
    8. GE (-3)
    9. TB (+1)
    10. OP (+5)
    11. SF (-2)
    12. FYEO (+1)
    13. LTK (-1)
    14. LALD (-3)
    15. QOS (-1)
    16. YOLT (+1)
    17. MR (-1)
    18. NTTD (new)
    19. TND (-1)
    20. SP (+2)
    21. TMWTGG (-2)
    22. AVTAK (-1)
    23. DAF (0)
    24. TWINE (-4)
    25. DAD (-1)
    -
    Only OHMSS (1st) and DAF (23rd) kept their old spot.

    The biggest climbers are:
    - OP (+5)
    - TLD (+2)
    - SP (+2)

    The biggest shifts in a negative sense were noted for:
    - TWINE (-4)
    - LALD (-3)
    - GE (-3)
    - TMWTGG (-2)
    - SF (-2)
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,082
    Also a big thank you from me, @GoldenGun, for setting this up and leading us through it. Re your statistics, how many members participated in 2021, and how many did this year? About the same?
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,597
    Looking at the list again, I would say that although I love Daylights as well, it being above Goldfinger is perhaps a bit mad! :D
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    edited September 13 Posts: 7,207
    Thanks @j_w_pepper :)

    I will have to double-check but I think there were more participants in 2021.

    Edit: not that much of a difference, in 2021 there were 25 participants, in 2024 we were with 22.
  • DwayneDwayne New York City
    Posts: 2,865
    As always, thanks @GoldenGun. Your effort at putting this together was greatly appreciated. ^:)^
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,207
    Thank you @Dwayne ! :)
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,207
    That's it, folks! Another game done qnd dusted. This is our honorary list so far:

    Best film #1: OHMSS
    Best Bond girl: Tracy di Vincenzo
    Best score: OHMSS
    Best villain: Franz Sanchez
    Best title track: OHMSS
    Best title sequence: CR
    Best Fleming novel: MR
    Best pre-title sequence: TLD
    Best film #2: OHMSS
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 14,680
    Many thanks, @GoldenGun. A fun round that could've only been better if the perfect FRWL took the gold!
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    Posts: 3,800
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    That's it, folks! Another game done qnd dusted. This is our honorary list so far:

    Best film #1: OHMSS
    Best Bond girl: Tracy di Vincenzo
    Best score: OHMSS
    Best villain: Franz Sanchez
    Best title track: OHMSS
    Best title sequence: CR
    Best Fleming novel: MR
    Best pre-title sequence: TLD
    Best film #2: OHMSS

    Happy so far, it's perfect! =D>
    Great and excellent job, @GoldenGun
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,255
    Thank you ever so much, @GoldenGun. Now I know you have your hands full, but I am looking forward to the next game you will be hosting... 😉
  • Mathis1Mathis1
    Posts: 7,537
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    That's it, folks! Another game done qnd dusted. This is our honorary list so far:

    Best film #1: OHMSS
    Best Bond girl: Tracy di Vincenzo
    Best score: OHMSS
    Best villain: Franz Sanchez
    Best title track: OHMSS
    Best title sequence: CR
    Best Fleming novel: MR
    Best pre-title sequence: TLD
    Best film #2: OHMSS

    Thanks again @GoldenGun ,
    I can get on board with all of that list, great results!
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited September 14 Posts: 3,800
    I've realized that we haven't had a 'Best Bond Ally' and 'Best Bond Location', or a 'Best Bond Henchman/woman' yet.

    Maybe we could do the either of them? @GoldenGun 😊
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,207
    Thank you, dear people!

    I noticed we haven't done a henchmen ranking yet. Seems like a good moment to propose that:

    DN: RJ Dent
    FRWL: Red Grant
    GF: Oddjob
    TB: Fiona Volpe
    YOLT: Osato
    OHMSS: Irma Bunt
    DAF: Wint & Kidd
    LALD: Tee Hee
    TWMTGG: Nick Nack
    TSWLM: Jaws
    MR: Chang
    FYEO: Erich Kriegler
    OP: Gobinda
    NSNA: Fatima Blush
    AVTAK: May Day
    TLD: Necros
    LTK: Dario
    GE: Xenia Onatopp
    TND: Stamper
    TWINE: Renard
    DAD: Miranda Frost
    CR: Valenka
    QOS: Elvis
    SF: Patrice
    SP: Hinx
    NTTD: Cyclops

    Any interest in this?
  • R1s1ngs0nR1s1ngs0n France
    Posts: 2,160
    Perfect choice for the next game!
    I would, however, replace a couple of the names on the list:
    YOLT - Hans. Not nearly as memorable as others on the list but as Blofeld personal bodyguard, he does pose the biggest physical threat to Bond.
    DAD - Zao
  • marcmarc Universal Exports
    Posts: 2,611
    I'd suggest Locque instead of Kriegler
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,597
    That’s a tricky one, I think I’d probably say Locque is a secondary baddie though, with Kriegler being more of in the standard henchman role.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,082
    Good idea, though the first thing that I notice is the wild discrepancy among the movies in terms of having memorable henchpersons. Some have several who are outstanding (say FRWL: Rosa Klebb and Red Grant...plus even those Bulgarians are more "rounded" than the primary henchperson in some other films!), while others have just one that should be considered "meh" (come on...Elvis??? Might as well be Mr. Kil, and Mr. Bullion from TWINE - all eminently superfluous!), dies early (Patrice), hasn't really registered with me as a true henchperson (Valenka) or, as you said about Hans, is simply not memorable and only there because he is big, blond, blue-eyed and Teutonic.

    That being said, I don't have a solution for that problem, other than starting out with all minions of the respective Big Baddie who at least have a character name, instead of just one per film.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,597
    There's certainly a bit of debate as to who is the henchman and who isn't! :)
    Is it Fiona Volpe or Vargas? Is Jaws not the main henchman in MR?
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 14,680
    CR henchman should be Kratt?
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,255
    I'm not against more than one henchman per movie, if that doesn't complicate matters, of course.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited September 15 Posts: 16,597
    QBranch wrote: »
    CR henchman should be Kratt?

    Ooh I never caught his name: is he the shaven-headed chap with the light eyes?
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,082
    I'd say the name of the henchperson should at least be mentioned in the film. Maybe my memory fails me, but in the dialogue transcript of CR I find neither Kratt nor e.g. Gettler. And not even Valenka.
  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,169
    mtm wrote: »
    QBranch wrote: »
    CR henchman should be Kratt?

    Ooh I never caught his name: is he the shaven-headed chap with the light eyes?

    That’s the one. He removes Bonds tracker, and cuts the hole in the chair.
    One of those rare Bond characters that go nameless. Except sometimes in the credits.

    I was going to say. It’s almost impossible to all agree on who is the henchmen or villain in FRWL?
    Is Jaws the henchman in MR? Is it Kriegler or is it Locque in FYEO?
    Why don’t we just let our host @GoldenGun decide who’s on the list?
    It is a game and only a bit of fun after all.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 41,011
    I'd say we'd be here forever debating who's the "real" henchman in a couple of installments, so yes, it's @GoldenGun's game and we should let him decide, or even do duplicate options if he can't.
  • Vinther1991Vinther1991 Denmark
    edited September 15 Posts: 64
    Why not Carlos as the CR henchman? Except the fact that he dies early, he ticks the boxes: A physical threat, hired goon without a clear goal on his own.

    I think Helga Brandt is more of a henchperson than Osato, who is too much of a businessman.

    Jaws is arguably the main henchperson of Moonraker, and I would also make the argument for Zao over Frost in DAD.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,207
    I understad the arguments for YOLT, FYEO and DAD. Also get Jaws for MR, but that has him featuring twice. Which can be interesting too, because many people rate his character differently in MR as opposed to TSWLM. Let me think on this a little bit.

    I'd don't want to include every single henchman though because that would make it more difficult from a practical point of view, and it would make my already poor math skills prone to more error.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,207
    Okay, so for YOLT I'm actually considering Helga Brandt now, she's the most memorable sidekick in that film, and the actor who plays Hans doesn't even appear in the title sequence.

    For MR, I consider Jaws because I'm interested to see how everyone compares this one to his TSWLM appearance.

    For FYEO, Locque is also the most memorable of the bunch, so I'll go with him. Plus, he's Belgian :))

    For DAD, it's a tricky one since I think a case can be made for either Frost or Zao, but it's Zao who pushes the first part of the film forward so probably he's the more logical choice, even though I love Frost.
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