The Music of David Arnold.

24

Comments

  • edited December 2011 Posts: 3,276
    Arnold has the tendency to transcribe everything that happens on screen into his scores... I hate it when Bond punches someone or jumps between buildings the music puts the emphasis on the punch and the jump... you'd almost expect Arnold to make the horns play quiet notes at every step Bond take if he'd tip-toe in a room. Barry's music was always disconnected from the action, giving the scenes an atmosphere.

    I understand what you are saying. I think you are using the score from the rooftop-chase in QoS to illustrate your point.

    There are two ways of applying music to a movie, as you probably know. The newest and most common way, is for the composer to construct a score around editors first cut.

    But the other way - which I actually prefer - is for many major scenes in the editors cut to be constructed/edited around the composers score. Director Sergio Leone and his composer Ennio Morricone were masters at doing this, and I think we saw the same thing here (6.10-9.00):


    I am guessing here, but based on a lot of the Bond-movies which had Barry as composer, it seems like more scenes were deliberately stretched/edited to match the score that Barry composed beforehand. I don't think Arnold in general has ever been given the same treatment, making his job a lot harder, but I could be wrong.

    And don't forget that, unlike Arnold, Barry used themes from other movies, as well as Tchaikovsky, Vivaldi, Beach Boys and so forth to "give the scenes atmosphere".
  • Posts: 4,762
    Murdock wrote:
    00Beast wrote:
    Arnold is just okay with me, not spectacular, but not horrible either. Some cues stick out in my memory, but quite frankly, John Barry's cues stick out more to me. Classics like Necros Attacks, Snow Job/He's Dangerous, 007 and Counting, Let's Go Get 'Em, and Chateau Fight stick out the most. That's the thing with Arnold. Some of his cues just don't stay with me long term.

    Agreed. However the stuff Arnold did that sticks out to me are. Hovercraft Chase, Ice Palace Car Chase, TND-Bike Chase, Caviar Factory, Sword Fight, Night at the Opera and African Rundown only to name a few.

    I love the Caviar Factory, TND-Bike Chase, and the Night at the Opera. Those are good stuff!
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    00Beast wrote:
    I love the Caviar Factory, TND-Bike Chase, and the Night at the Opera. Those are good stuff!

    Exactly! :)

  • TND: His best bond soundtrack! Pure gold.
    TWINE: Not as good as TND, but it works in the film. As a memorable soundtrack... not so much.
    DAD: I only remember the cuban part.. the rest is just like elevator music
    CR: Boring..
    QoS: Even worse.. I didn't even notice it when I watched the film.

    So.. David Arnold can be a great composer, but he has had his chance. There are better qualified composers out there
    (Hopefully is Thomas Newman one of them..)
  • Posts: 11,425
    Wasn't Monty Norman's original arrangement of the theme a total joke though? Barry took the tune and made it great.
  • True!
    Even worse:
    him trying to prove it is his song by singing it! (See the dvd-extra's!)
    Some people should be protected against themselves..
  • Posts: 278
    Things must be bad for poor old David... Just seen him playing the organ on "The Matt Lucas Show" on BBC 1.... What a load of tripe!!
    Never mind old chum, got that thing called "Olympics" to write a ditty for!? :-B
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,217
    Him and Lucas are close friends so that would explain it. I wouldn't say he's worried about his workload at the moment.
  • edited December 2020 Posts: 27
    Reposted and expanded from another topic:

    I don't know if this is the right forum to discuss such things from a professional point of view (classical musician) but here is my few cents:

    The usage of minor key in a James Bond Films functions at its best if result sound glamorous. This is not given and is only to be achieved trough a right attitude, education and training in composing because that's difficult to achieve. John Barry was a master of that art and his Bond - songs and scores when in minor, sound glamorous , not sad.

    Now, sad is the easiest approach to a minor key. It's a childlike approach: major: happy , minor: sad. And there it stops, for most pop-musicians incl. Sheryl Craw and Adelle.

    The last glamurous Bond - Song in minor key was Goldeneye, probably by accident. Since 1996 I'm waiting for another glamorous sounding Bond - song. The first ingredient would be to finally use the Bond- Chord: a big minor nonachord which is a glamorous Bond - Chord instead of a simple minor quintachord and to build from there. Also, one does not have to imitate John Barry but to apply his courage to create very untypical, almost unorganic way of a melody - concept and making it sound completely natural, as well in scores (like "This sniper was a woman"). This is difficult, even for a trained composer, but maybe John Powell could manage... he is really gifted and skilled.

    Also, a tune in score or a song doesn't always have to start with a tonika-chord in the ground key, like it always does with Arnold. This is so simple and almost stupid. John Barry always tried to start a tune differently. Out of Africa begins on a subdominante, for example. Even Arnold's most beloved YOLT'S "Capsule in Space" begins on a dominante. Funny how Arnold never thought about that technique, because it opens enormous possibilities.

    OHMSS theme intro begins with 4 (!) punchy big minor nonachords in a row, 2 of them put in another constellations to camouflage them so there could be some melody on top of it, connecting all. "I wanted people to be sure, they are watching a Bond - movie" said Barry. It was neccessary due to a new actor playing the part. No way David Arnold would do such stuff.

    The fortissimo trumpets with Barry sounded punchy (not too fast). With Arnold they often sound hysterical (too fast), so the impact is opposite of what Bond is. It sounds like a very scared woman panicking instead a stable man always in control.

    Also, the music business is the only business where not competent person can be successful and earn a lots of money because "somebody will like it anyway". This makes one really sad. If you look closer, it actually needs skills equal to a good doctor, banker lawyer or an architect and much longer education then they have.

    It's a plain luck that John Barry did Bond films anyway. It could have been much less attractive, deep, imaginative, refined or groundbreaking with someone else. I don't even like to think about that.
    A Bond score should not be sadness combined with mostly mediants (very easy to fill up time and used by all classically untrained composers). It should be an imaginative work of art. I hope Newman will do it better, he proved to be extremely sensitive composer.
    With Adele's song we got a beautiful but again sad song.
    This is my first and now extended post in this forum, greets to you all.

  • Posts: 11,425
    It's true. The conjunction of Bond and Barry is one of the great happy artistic marriages of all time.

    I don't think Arnold is anywhere close to Barry, but as time goes by I have softened towards him. His CR work was pretty good I thought. YKMN was one of the better post-Barry songs and his Surrender was also half decent.

    I actually have a sneaking suspicion that after we hear Newman's score for SF, that we are going to hear a lot of people calling for Arnold's return. Just a suspicion.
  • edited December 2020 Posts: 27
    I think it's great that Newman got this chance, he is very skilled and his sensitivity for a certain moment is hard to achieve by any film composer today.
  • SandySandy Somewhere in Europe
    Posts: 4,012
    You raise some good points @seroxx but I think you are generalizing, which is a naive way to look at things. Not all pop music is devoid of quality or complexity and not all classical music is brilliant.
    I am a fan of Thomas Newman's work, he is an extremely talented composer however that doesn't mean he'll do a better job than Arnold. I hope he does! However we will only find out when we hear the finished soundtrack.
    seroxx wrote:
    I think it's great that Newman got this chance, he is very skilled and his sensitivity for a certain moment is hard to achieve by any film composer today.
    If he dissapoints in any aspect, it would be really clever to ask John Powell or even Harry Gregson - Williams to try instead going with Arnold again. If Arnold comes back, I hope he studied composition a few years. He has probably enough money to do that to himself.

    Taking composition lessons doesn't make a composer, it provides more tools but doesn't increase the amount of talent one was born with.

    P.S.: I find your use of caps a little annoying ;) If you want to put emphasys you can for example use bold or underline.
  • edited October 2012 Posts: 5,767
    @seroxx, welcome to our little garden!
    Overall, I find your post very interesting. My musical education doesn´t reach to the degree that I could judge all of your comments correctly, but as far as it goes, I find your criticism quite constructive.
    And, for a post of that length, it´s remarkably smooth to read ;-). I don´t find that too often.
    seroxx wrote:
    David Arnold's scores remind me of a Cockney working-class person trying to speak like an English Lord.

    It doesn't really work, no matter how much you try.
    No it doesn´t. But then again, James Bond doesn´t have to be either one of them. Like a Cockney worker talking his talk, Arnold sounds really good when he doesn´t try to be something he´s not. The problem is not so much Arnold being not classically trained, but Arnold sometimes or more often stepping out of his comfort zone. Laziness might come into it too here and there, especially his video game scores suggest the latter notion.

    It would be interesting to see what other composers would do with Bond. I´m not sure if we live in a time where there are composers equal to Barry, Goldsmith, or Williams. Your suggestion of Powell made me cringe a bit, because, as much as I agree he knows his music theory, I find the resulting music less interesting than Arnold´s.
    But maybe it would be a good idea to change the composer with every film for a while? One could always keep a composer if he was really good.
    Sandy wrote:
    seroxx wrote:
    If Arnold comes back, I hope he studied composition a few years. He has probably enough money to do that to himself.

    Taking composition lessons doesn't make a composer, it provides more tools but doesn't increase the amount of talent one was born with.
    IMO it´s obvious that Arnold has the talent, but lacks the tools to express it all properly. With the right education he could be the man of the future, I have no doubt. And from what I heard about his past, he never had the money or opportunity for a proper study. Carpe diem, David!

  • edited October 2012 Posts: 183
    @Seroxx, I completely disagree with most of your points about Arnold, I personally have enjoyed Arnold's work over the past few films, but I agree that it's nice to have a fresh composer to have a go, much in the same way we got breaks from John Barry with the likes of George Martin and Marvin Hamlisch.

    But personally I agree I would love Powell for a Bond score, it'd be interesting to see what he would do and it's high time he got a job for a more mature audience (rather than keep scoring animation or comedies). But anyway, my love for Powell will be saved for a different thread, otherwise we may get a bit distracted from the fact this is a discussion on Arnold's music, not who should replace him!
  • Posts: 246
    seroxx wrote:
    David Arnold's scores remind me of a Cockney working-class person trying to speak like an English Lord.
    ...
    Also, the music business is the only business where not competent person can be successful and earn a lots of money because "somebody will like it anyway". This makes one really sad. If you look closer, it actually needs skills equal to a good doctor, banker lawyer or an architect and much longer education then they have.

    It's true that music is often the least and last consideration for producers, but you make it sound like David Arnold is guilty of banging a few saucepans together and calling it a day.

    I get it - you don't like his scores. I do. And I don't care whether or not he has 'classical' training or whether his music meets the approval of pretentious music theorists who never put their notes where their mouth is. It's enough for me that he's produced exciting action themes, beautiful love themes, feisty Bond songs (where he was allowed to) and generally cool and appropriate scores.




  • edited October 2012 Posts: 11,425
    In my view, David Arnold is actually one of the better things to have emerged in the past 25 years. He doesn't compare to Barry, but who could replace Barry? He is certainly better than the guy who did the GE soundtrack, which admitedly is not hard. Compared to the quality of script writing in Bond, Arnold has maintained relatively high standards.
  • Posts: 27
    Yes, Sandy, I'm generalising because I have an education to do that without being immodest, I am taking my full responsibility for that and sorry for caps. I wanted to write this for approx 10 years so it came out big :-) I'm not arrogant; I'm writing about issue, but I don't know if this is the right place.
    "Not all pop music is devoid of quality or complexity and not all classical music is brilliant."
    I didn't say that. I'm very aware of that fact, I grew up with high quality english pop/rock music as well and I like it for completely different reasons then classical music which is the highest organised form of music on the planet ever. I don't know what kind of musical education you have but a serious classical composition of any time in history had a lot to do with skill, architecture and knowledge. That is the only reason why great composers are not so many through human history. By the way, composers that everybody else learned from are mostly from a german-speaking parts of europe.
    You can hear a lot of Anton Bruckner in John Barry if you compare the way how melodies and harmonies start and develope. Barry studied it and he new. But that things need a lot of time in youth because they are very complex.

    "Taking composition lessons doesn't make a composer, it provides more tools but doesn't increase the amount of talent one was born with."

    I would rather not like to react on this, it exceeds this topic. Being musician of any kind means a 90% of hard work (always learning and improving) with 10% of talent. That's what most professional musicians say, me included. Yes, David Arnold works hard as well, sometimes some results come out of it (QOS score was an improvement) but he rides Golf Volkswagen in Formula 1 race and he knows it himself probably as well. But he was suggested to Broccolis by John Barry, for making covers of Barry's songs. Only an ignorant person would have not taken that chance. I suppose that the old man was mellowed because someone finally re-arranged something good and new with his songs, he didn't questioned Arnold's knowledge about composing. Weird.
    You have to know about harmonics before you start composing, their connections, solutions and tricks how to modulate from there to there. This is not generalising. If one wants to do something proper, one goes to someone to learn it proper. In every day life.
    That means I would not go to a most expensive dentist only to get my teeth brushed with a newest toothpaste.

    If someone does music for such a gigantic successful franchise, he should better be very skilled (and talented as well) in every aspect for that kind of job.
  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    edited October 2012 Posts: 4,399
    Barry, for all the amazing work the legendary man himself has done - his later Bond scores got to be really 'lazy' - i hate to use that term and 'John Barry' in the same sentence, but i think it's a bit of truth... you look at his earlier work like OHMSS, or DAF compared to OP or AVTAK and the variety and complexity between them are polar opposites... Barry in his later works just seemed to find a melody - and then repeat it to death - as is the case with the AVTAK score - i don't know how many times the same 'Snow Job' piece of music was recycled with just different names and different sporadic guitar riffs.. listening to OHMSS as i currently am, there is so much diverse music.. you go from traditional Bond action beats, to weird psychedelic ones, then romantic cues, back to action, then to suspense.. it's truly a masterful score..

    i think too much undue criticism is given to Arnold, and I hope he does return to Bond, with either Bond 24 or Bond 25... i think with Arnold's soundtracks, too many 'filler cues' are added to the score's soundtrack that aren't really needed... if they were to trim the fat on the albums, and give us just the essentials, the soundtracks would sound a lot tighter.... Arnold's scores work within the movie - not so much for casual listening - except for a few tracks here and there..
  • Posts: 11,425
    Barry's later work might not generally have been so good, but TLD is a classic, IMO.
  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    edited October 2012 Posts: 4,399
    Getafix wrote:
    Barry's later work might not generally have been so good, but TLD is a classic, IMO.

    that is the one exception i have lol - i also love TLD score... but between TMWTGG, MR, OP, AVTAK and TLD .. only 2 scores are really worthy of standing next to his older work, and that is MR and TLD.. and would say MR more so than TLD..... and im not even saying his work was terrible on OP and AVTAK - its great in the movie, but when i listen to those scores - all it really seems to be is the same 2 songs over and over..lol

  • Posts: 246
    seroxx wrote:
    You have to know about harmonics before you start composing, their connections, solutions and tricks how to modulate from there to there....

    This isn't so.

    Anyone who can use an instrument, a sequencer or whatever can compose. Some people might not rate that composition, but that's a different matter. There's nothing wrong about being a self-taught composer.

    By your logic, Heston Blumenthal wouldn't be in the running for world's best chef.

    And I'm sure the Bond producers didn't blithely sign up David Arnold on the strength of Shaken and Stirred and a nod from John Barry alone. There's the small matter of a proven track record in producing successful blockbuster scores. Remember Stargate and Independence Day?
  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    edited October 2012 Posts: 4,399
    seroxx wrote:
    You have to know about harmonics before you start composing, their connections, solutions and tricks how to modulate from there to there....

    <a href="http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v323/djx187/?action=view&current=crumpetcricket.jpg"; target="_blank"><img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/djx187/crumpetcricket.jpg"; border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

  • Posts: 27
    I ment composing for an international 150 mil. James Bond - blockbuster, sorry for not being precise enough.
    And yes, of course, everybody can do everything anyway :-)
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,217
    Arnold is much better when he uses less electronics in his scores.

    The trio of ID4, Godzilla, and Tomorrow Never Dies are still the cream of the crop when I think of Arnold.
  • edited October 2012 Posts: 27
    [/quote]

    "Anyone who can use an instrument, a sequencer or whatever can compose. Some people might not rate that composition, but that's a different matter. There's nothing wrong about being a self-taught composer.

    By your logic, Heston Blumenthal wouldn't be in the running for world's best chef.

    And I'm sure the Bond producers didn't blithely sign up David Arnold on the strength of Shaken and Stirred and a nod from John Barry alone. There's the small matter of a proven track record in producing successful blockbuster scores. Remember Stargate and Independence Day? "

    [/quote]

    Oh, this is getting really nice. Wait a moment, my cat seems not to feel well, here's the knife, let me cut her belly to see inside, everybody who has a knife can do it anyway, yeah!

    Mr. Blumenthal learned a lots of stuff from other chefs and is probably learning how to improve some recipe right now because he is obviously not

    an ignorant.

    Anyway, if we reduce this argument to the "matter of taste" then it really doesn't matter what I hear or think.
    If we argue about "matter of taste" vs. "matter of skills" it all looks rather different.
    I'm sure we are all a giant Bond - Fans and want the best for the franchise even if EON may not care what we write here. Or do they? :-)


  • SandySandy Somewhere in Europe
    Posts: 4,012
    @seroxx, good to know you are not so single-minded as it appeared from your first post. However I don't rate Arnold as low as some people, including you. I think he had very good moments, City of Lovers from the CR soundtrack is an absolutely memorable track. The problem I always find with him is that he often repeats himself and is a times inconsistent. But the repetition issue is a problem I find many times with Barry's work! And I adore Barry with all my heart. I try to look at everything rationally, perhaps it's a professional defect I earned over the years.

    Answering your question about me, I had formal classical piano lessons from the age of 7 until I was 18. At that time I had to choose between engaging in the national conservatoire (higher degree) or following an academic career in science. I chose science and continued playing for the simple pleasure of it, I don't regret it as I'm a much better scientist that I would ever be a musician. I'm curious, why did you talk about german composers, are you german? Or you think I'm german? Or was it just a random comment?
  • edited October 2012 Posts: 27
    CV post deleted by me due wrong topic.
  • SandySandy Somewhere in Europe
    Posts: 4,012
    seroxx wrote:
    A random moment. It's just an info, I am not german but after an east-european music school and music middle school (non-existant in the west) I got my bachelor & master in Switzerland. I am an active violinist working in several swiss orchestras and teaching in music-school. In "music forms" and "musical harmony" lessons we analised in Switzerland every week another piece of music, mostly german composers (Mozart, Bach, Beethoven, Shubert, Brahms, Wagner), 3 years long. The teacher was a genius who dedicated all his life to analysis of this composers' work and presented it like Martin Campbell presented James Bond movies. There I soon understood that that composition is simply unmatchable, functional on several levels in the same time and with mathematical perfection: structurally , harmonically, melodically, formally, depending number of bars (!) for different parts, structural dependency of those parts, and it all sounded great. It is astonishing what all of them did with 12 notes, the rules they all knew from past generations in detail , then to break them and creating new rules, expanding always more complicated landscape of harmonics in each coming generation until it spread in second Vieneese school in pure mathematical 12 note composing atonality. All of us which attended those studies there could understand why that composers were geniuses - it was all in front of us, black on white. I feel so honored to be able to visit that lessons, it practically changed the way I looked at music for the rest of my life. I also became sensitive on composer's quality, therefore admiration or a lack of. I would give this teacher a Nobel Prize in science but he doesn't need that stuff, he just teaches and when not, he analyses, that makes that man happy, that's what he lives for.
    Yes, Barry repeats his parts twice like slavic composers did (Dvorak, Tchaikovsky). It worked for the ballet in the past, last hundred years it works for movies.

    That was a very nice background information you gave about you! The eastern european schools are usually excellent (and I'm a bit partial to eastern composer). I agree completely that harmony is mathematics, but music itself is physics and what we feel while listening to it is nothing but physiology.

    Now back on topic!
  • Posts: 246
    seroxx wrote:
    Anyway, if we reduce this argument to the "matter of taste" then it really doesn't matter what I hear or think.
    If we argue about "matter of taste" vs. "matter of skills" it all looks rather different.

    This is a forum populated largely by Bond-obsessed teens. I don't think debate here can be anything other than about taste.

    If you're looking to flex your musical credentials and float a debate based on a learnt philosophy of music that isn't shared by anyone here, then I think you're on a hiding to nothing posting in this place. Unless you're hoping to be the big fish in a small pond of course - it might work.

    You're coming across (to me at least) as a bit snobbish. A bit holier-than-thou. A bit of a zealot. And unrealistically obsessed with getting a Bond movie soundtrack composer worthy of ticking the boxes that you've learnt can be ticked .

    David Arnold is not half bad at the job. Your scathing summation of his work is mean to say the least. You can dress up your criticisms with all the musical jargon you like and hope to seem erudite and reasoned, but all I'm hearing from you is 'I don't like David Arnold's scores.'

    If you want to persuade me that your arguments have merit you need to engage on my (our) level. I invite you to try again without the CV and the jargon.
  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    Posts: 4,399
    @seroxx

    music is art, and art is subjective.... you or anyone can list 10,000 different ways that said music sucks - but it all still comes back to personal preference and opinion...
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