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In terms of iconic Bond films, I don't know how how many the general public would consider truly iconic; Goldfinger: its theme-tune, the gadget-laden DB5, larger-than-life bad-guy, super henchman Odd Job, and the outrageously named Pussy Galore... all iconic; You Only Live Twice gave us the volcano secret base, arguably the most iconic version of Blofeld, and that theme-tune; and The Spy Who Loved Me had the Lotus that turns into a submarine, and a new iconic henchman in Jaws, plus Carley Simon's hit song and the ski-jump to Union Jack parachute.
I know us fans would have a much larger range of what we consider iconic films in the series, but I don't think the general public remember much more than the outrageous over-the-top things.
Imo: NTTD is a very good Bond film, but definitely not a classic.
A classic means cultural impact. It didn't sell too well. The average Joe doesn't talk about this movie in the water cooler. Youth viewership has been historically low. Critics liked it but aren't raving over it.
NTTD came very late into Craig's career. 15 years in. Yes, it's a satisfying conclusion and one of his best performances. But the movies that established Craig as one of the best Bond actors were made a long time back.
“So why no landmark? Just because, personally, I don’t think Goldeneye breaks any new ground. It updates the formula, tweaks the rules, but ultimately it plays by both. The concept of Bond isn’t stretched in any way. Just reinvigorated. Which, really, is all the film wanted. After six years off, this wasn’t the time to forge a brave new world but rather prove the old one wasn’t lost for good.”
https://www.denofgeek.com/movies/how-goldeneye-updated-the-james-bond-franchise/?amp
I can’t really argue with that to be fair. As he says in the review, even the idea of proving Bond worked without the cold war wasn’t exactly new, because the series had played outside of that area before. But then if we’re looking at it that way, did Moore really have one? I guess LALD was new ground in a sense (a much lighter Bond, hints of the supernatural) but it still sticks fairly closely to the old formula. TSWLM meanwhile is even more formulaic, doing nothing new, but it’s so ridiculously well oiled and does what it sets out to do so well that I‘d have a hard time not calling it a classic/landmark Bond film. It’s the perfect blockbuster Bond.
Ultimately, I think the best way of defining a classic is just “really bloody good”. So, I would say yes, every Bond’s been lucky enough to have one.
Seconded.
Genuine question, which of the Dalton films do you view as class, and why? Both?
The PTS is amazing, and then we get ten minutes of very faithful Fleming...Dalton brought the danger and grit back to Bond that Moore had essentially jettisoned.
Gotta be :
GF - set the Bond formula in motion, but I nearly chose TB.
TSWLM (just watched - so enjoyable and fun: Moore kicks ass in this one, at his most physical)
TLD- follows the Moore blueprint but with Dalton's darker edge.
Tomorrow Never Dies - a bit like Spy. But not nearly as elegant.
SP - not Craig's best but it is close to the classic formula.
I agree, here. I do love LTK also, but I think it has a couple of fundamental issues that stop it from really hitting high marks on the classicometer.
Classic films are often universal favorites that hold up after repeated screenings. Classics are renowned films of first rank, reference points in film mythology, or films that have become a part of cultural folklore.
If we go by that definition, I think we have some Bond entries that very clearly meet it. From Russia with Love is one, and Goldfinger absolutely, positively, unmistakably falls into that category. After that...I'm not really sure? Would any of Moore's films come under that same definition? Perhaps the closest is TSWLM, as it has so many iconic moments (like the parachute jump, which has been referenced in this thread several times). As much as I love Dalton (still my favorite Bond), I don't believe either TLD or LTK meets that definition. GE is a possibility but it's a stretch. And I do feel quite certain that time will prove CR as a classic of that earlier rank.
Another way I am thinking about this: If I tuned in to Turner Classic Movies some evening, as I often do, and saw that FRWL or GF were playing by themselves, I wouldn't be surprised. However, I would hardly ever expect to see any film starring George, Roger, Timothy, Pierce, or even Daniel (at this point) to be on TCM by itself - only if it were part of a Bond marathon. Does that make sense?
It's interesting to hear each person's definition of what makes a classic. I like your TCM analogy, @PDJamesBond.
Yes it does, and I think you make some very valid points (and establish a criteria for classic). I’d say, if I’m using scrutiny at a high level: Goldfinger, From Russia With Love (maybe, on the fence), and Casino Royale 2006, plus I think Skyfall will be there too (probably already is). None for Brosnan, Dalton, or Moore. Just don’t see it.
I am with you up through TLD, though my second-choice Connery classic after GF would be FRWL rather than TB. I also like TND a lot, but would argue in favour of GE for Brosnan (more on that below) and SF for Craig, which IMO, while not as much of a milestone reset as the widely-acclaimed CR, is an amalgam of the best Bond film elements old and new, and thus a classic of the "really bloody good" variety ((c) @thelivingroyale).
As for the point made by the DenofGeek reviewer and brought up by @thelivingroyale about GE not being groundbreaking, I see it as groundbreaking enough and then some. To me the groundbreaking aspects were
(1) Alec Trevelyan, the former friend/colleague turned villain, adding nuance to the enmity that was echoed years later in SF's Silva (it helps that I am a big fan of Sean Bean)
(2) Judi Dench's M, whose casting was certainly groundbreaking at the time and proved a brilliant dramatic move; and
(3) not as radical as the other two, but still: Natalia not only having agency as a Bond ally - other Bond girls had done that before her - but shown as an equal if not occasionally superior decision-maker. This trend had arguably started with LTK's Pam Bouvier, but was more pronounced in GE: where their predecessors disagreed with Bond and/or struck out on their own, they usually had to be brought about to accept Bond's "right" decision, or ended up jeopardising the mission, often by becoming damsels in distress. In Natalia's case, she is more than once shown to do the right thing. This approach continued into TND with Wai Lin, but was lost in Brosnan's later instalments.
Oh, and did I mention the very literally groundbreaking zeitgeist-y sequence of Bond driving a tank around St Petersburg? :D :P
I might also add the peculiarity of Joe Don "TLD baddie!Brad Whitaker" Baker's re-casting as GE Bond ally Jack Wade, but I know it is more of a casting curio than a fresh move.
Indeed. There is none more faithful to the Fleming source material in my opinion.
Lazenby-OHMSS (obv)
Moore- TSWLM
Dalton- LD
Brosnan-GE
Craig- CR, SF,NTTD
As much as I love TLD, I think it just falls a wee bit short of having one memorable scene that the public remembers, although you could make an argument for the snow car chase/cello scene, and possibly for the first border crossing scene.
1. CR
2. SF
3. GF
4. NTTD
5. FRWL
6. GE
7. DN
8. TSWLM
9. TB
10. YOLT
11. SP
12. LALD
13. OHMSS
14. TLD
15. TMWTGG
16. FYEO
17. QOS
18. LTK
19. DAF
20. TND
21. OP
22. TWINE
23. AVTAK
24. MR
25. DAD
Aside from NTTD (obviously being a newbie), I think there’s a very strong case for the top 10 to be considered Bond classics as far as general audiences go. We may champion OHMSS, but it’s at best a cult Bond film rather than a classic recognized outside our community. DN, FRWL, GF, TB, YOLT, TSWLM, GE, CR, and SF have considerably made their marks on pop culture in a way you cannot say the same for FYEO or TLD, as beloved as those are among fans.
I like the theory by @PDJamesBond regarding TCM, but a flaw in that is that the network largely airs what’s under WB’s catalog constantly. So the chances of GF running as much as NORTH BY NORTHWEST is less likely due to licensing. I’m sure TCM would love to play more Bond films they deem classics if they owned the entire MGM library,
About two years ago, TCM actually did have a marathon of Bond films as part of a United Artists (UA) retrospective. They showed all of the films from DN to TND (IIRC). But as you stated, playing them in regular rotation comes down to a rights issue.
:)) =))
I just had a look, interesting how things change after only a few days, looks like the Roger Moore Army is on the march!
https://www.imdb.com/list/ls078535153/
Doh!
Yes, I see what you mean, it's just a page someone created on the imdb site
James Bond Movies Ranked via IMDb Rating
by bryno92 | created - 18 Oct 2015 | updated - 05 Aug 2018 | Public
My apologies
DN, FRWL, GF, TB No question here, we had universal agreement.
YOLT I was actually originally in the minority in pushing this one, but after arguing the indelible iconography that this film left on the public consciousness all agreed but for one hold out.
OHMSS One of us was not all that crazy about it, but recognized its importance and recent upgrade in status, so no one ended up voting against it. Maybe not fully recognized by the world at large yet, but on its way, and critically already there. Consistently wins in our members polls.
TSWLM Most of us agreed that it stands above the rest of Moore's entires in terms of public regard and impact. It was huge at the time of release. Not unique for a Bond film, but probably the biggest explosion the franchise had witnessed since TB.
GE, CR, SF We all agreed, even five or six years ago, when we had this discussion, that these three had already stood the test of time, and had marked their territory in the history of the franchise.
We felt bad not including a Dalton, one or two members did push TLD. Strictly among the fan community, that one would certainly qualify, but that isn't enough, not when looking at the larger picture. Not even close. Maybe one day.
Personally, I feel that the list is incomplete. I fought hard to include LALD, but it was eventually shut out, one other voting with me. It is certainly included in My own definitive list of Classic Bond films:
DN, FRWL, GF, TB, YOLT, OHMSS, LALD, TSWLM, GE, CR, SF
Great post. Maybe "Classic" and "Iconic" are interchangeable, but for films like YOLT I'd put them on the latter list, but not the former. I understand what you mean about it's indelible iconography (but maybe just with regards to Blofeld; perhaps that's why I'm not an "original"!), but personally I wouldn't call it a classic Bond film.
I find myself constantly thinking to myself that I have to revisit TB. I just don't know what people see in it, at the end of the day. It's possible that my bias against TB comes from the same place as my bias against YOLT; the shadows my love of the Blofeld Trilogy of novels.