Bond Movie A vs. Bond Movie B (Diamonds Are Forever vs. The World Is Not Enough)

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  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    edited May 2012 Posts: 28,694
    Thanks @SirHenryLeeChaChing for the kind remarks!

    Indeed @wildboonjive. QoS is a very deep Bond film, and far more emotionally complex than many fans are willing to look.
  • edited May 2012 Posts: 1,220
    I think a BIG reason why Quantum of Solace was so unpopular is that it was mismarketed and largely misunderstood by the public, critics and fans alike. One of the biggest issues I find with QoS, is that many see it as "Bond gets revenge on Quantum" which really isn't the case. Bond isn't out looking for revenge, yes he wants some answers and some closure, but really at the end of the day, the man just wants to do his job, but due to a series of unfortunate events, it appears to his superiors as he's turned into a trigger happy killing machine. It's actually a bit ironic as the film is misunderstood by it's fans, just as Bond was misunderstood by his superiors. I think the biggest shortcoming of QoS, besides the incomprehensible editing in the action scenes, is that the film was rushed and didn't take enough time to flesh out the character development and the emotional side of the film, which is why it sort of "accidentaly" gives of this vibe of being a revenge flick. The second issue with the film is quite simple. While the idea of an environmentalist seizing control of the Bolivian water supply isn't a bad idea, it simply isn't grand enough for a Bond film, and frankly if this was going on in the real world (which in a sense it is) most people outside South America really wouldn't care. With a little bit more time and TLC, Quantum of Solace could have ranked up there with Casino Royale, however in my eyes altough it's still a huge missed opportunity (much like Diamonds are Forever), it's still a massively underrated Bond film which was hit hard by the writer's strike and rushed shooting schedule.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    ^
    Well said @battleshipgreygt, well said.
  • Posts: 1,492
    [

    I am also totally sick of the Bourne comparisons as well. Hopefully come November, we won't hear any more but there will always be those so biased and half witted that they can't come up with anything meaningful or original 8-}

    Agree with this. Its the criticism of the lazy. QoS has a couple of problems but you look closely and there is lots of juicy character motivation. It doesn't treat you as an idiot.

  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    edited May 2012 Posts: 28,694
    actonsteve wrote:
    [

    I am also totally sick of the Bourne comparisons as well. Hopefully come November, we won't hear any more but there will always be those so biased and half witted that they can't come up with anything meaningful or original 8-}

    Agree with this. Its the criticism of the lazy. QoS has a couple of problems but you look closely and there is lots of juicy character motivation. It doesn't treat you as an idiot.

    And I think that is why many say they are confused by the movie. They went into a Bond film, many expecting mindless fun, and didn't want to think, so they were oblivious to the characterization that was going on in front of them.
  • Posts: 12,837
    The action in QOS is similar to Bourne because of the editing. In terms of story and everything else though, it's completely different.
  • edited May 2012 Posts: 11,189
    Getafix wrote:
    QOS suffers a lot from people treating it as a standalone film rather than a companion piece to CR.

    @ SIR SEAN- what did you feel was rushed about the ending of QOS? Granted the whole movie is too short and laden with plot holes regarding the minor characters, but I thought the ending with Kabira and M ranks as one of the best in the entire series. Craig is absolutely Bond as we know him in those scenes. Lessons learned. That demeanor plus a lot more fun is what I expect we're going to see come late October/early November.

    I am a QoS fan but the end is very weak. A total rip off of Bourne 2.

    I actually think the end scene is probably one of the best parts of the film (no...I didn't mean it in THAT way). Its well acted by all and it's a good payoff for Craig's Bond. Its one of the few moments in the film that actually compells you.

    As I've said before one of the things that urks me about Quantum is that its just not engaging enough. It should be but it isn't. The sceme feels second-fiddle to the whole Bond/Vesper storyline too. The film doesn't give me enough reason to care about two blokes wanting to start a drought in the middle of the desert. In many ways the film feels like a mere "add-on" to CR. A good sequel shouldn't be that way. It should work either on its own or as part of a double-bill.

    That said there are some good aspects. The scenes with Bond and Mathis for instance really stand out and some of the art direction is impressive (namely a lot of the stuff in Bond's hotel). HOWEVER I still maintain that the cinematography in CR blows you away MUCH more. Who can't be impressed by the shot swooping over the crane as the two men fight or the opening establishing shot at the Bahamas. Moments liked that made me go "wow", never felt that way with QoS.
  • Posts: 1,492
    [
    And I think that is why many say they are confused by the movie. They went into a Bond film, many expecting mindless fun, and didn't want to think, so they were oblivious to the characterization that was going on in front of them.

    You may be on to something there.

  • edited May 2012 Posts: 11,189
    Is there anything wrong with wanting Bond films to at least be fun?

    CR has arguably just as much characterisation yet is a far more satisfying and...yes..."fun" film.

    No offence but comments like the above sound pretentious.
  • Posts: 1,082
    actonsteve wrote:
    [
    And I think that is why many say they are confused by the movie. They went into a Bond film, many expecting mindless fun, and didn't want to think, so they were oblivious to the characterization that was going on in front of them.

    You may be on to something there.

    He is. I always expect mindless fun from Bond, not a Shindler's list (or whatever drama film there is ) kind of drama influenced action movie.
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Is there anything wrong with wanting Bond films to at least be fun?

    No, you are completely right!

  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    edited May 2012 Posts: 28,694
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Is there anything wrong with wanting Bond films to at least be fun?

    CR has arguably just as much characterisation yet is a far more satisfying and...yes..."fun" film.

    No offence but comments like the above sound pretentious.

    It's not pretentious. I'm not acting like I am the messiah of Bond and everything I say is right. Is it wrong to want to be challenged by a Bond film that isn't afraid to add in brilliant drama and characterization? No, it isn't, and I get sick of the action, action, mindless fun, action that I have seen before. Films like that get tiring, because sometimes I want to think when I watch a film, and instead of going to Nolan every time, I can now go to CR, QoS, and now hopefully Skyfall. Drama is a sign that Bond is growing up, and it needs to step up its game.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Getafix wrote:
    QOS suffers a lot from people treating it as a standalone film rather than a companion piece to CR.

    @ SIR SEAN- what did you feel was rushed about the ending of QOS? Granted the whole movie is too short and laden with plot holes regarding the minor characters, but I thought the ending with Kabira and M ranks as one of the best in the entire series. Craig is absolutely Bond as we know him in those scenes. Lessons learned. That demeanor plus a lot more fun is what I expect we're going to see come late October/early November.

    I am a QoS fan but the end is very weak. A total rip off of Bourne 2.
    How so? It's completely bloody different. Bourne goes to apologize to the daughter, and Bond goes to confront Yusef, who was the one who needed to apologize. There is no similarity to it at all, and I am beginning to believe some people here get off on making Bond/Bourne comparisons, especially in regards to QoS, where I am sick of hearing them.

    Sorry, but in terms of tone, style, location, plot resolution, the ending of QoS owes nothing to Bond history and everything to Bourne. When have you ever seen Bond on a snow-swept East European council estate resolving a personal issue relating to an ex-girlfriend apart from in QoS? And when did QoS come out? 4 years after the Bourne Supremacy. I'm sorry, but any one who continues to claim (depsite all the glaring and blatant evidence to the contrary) that QoS is not heavily influenced by the Bourne franchise is utterly deluded. And I say that as a big fan of QoS. QoS is Bond's tribute to the excellent Bourne franchise. I personally felt that Bond needed to respond to Bourne, but would have preferred it if the references weren't quite so blatant. Hopefully SF will see Bond fully recovered from this inferiority complex.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Getafix wrote:
    Getafix wrote:
    QOS suffers a lot from people treating it as a standalone film rather than a companion piece to CR.

    @ SIR SEAN- what did you feel was rushed about the ending of QOS? Granted the whole movie is too short and laden with plot holes regarding the minor characters, but I thought the ending with Kabira and M ranks as one of the best in the entire series. Craig is absolutely Bond as we know him in those scenes. Lessons learned. That demeanor plus a lot more fun is what I expect we're going to see come late October/early November.

    I am a QoS fan but the end is very weak. A total rip off of Bourne 2.
    How so? It's completely bloody different. Bourne goes to apologize to the daughter, and Bond goes to confront Yusef, who was the one who needed to apologize. There is no similarity to it at all, and I am beginning to believe some people here get off on making Bond/Bourne comparisons, especially in regards to QoS, where I am sick of hearing them.

    Sorry, but in terms of tone, style, location, plot resolution, the ending of QoS owes nothing to Bond history and everything to Bourne. When have you ever seen Bond on a snow-swept East European council estate resolving a personal issue relating to an ex-girlfriend apart from in QoS? And when did QoS come out? 4 years after the Bourne Supremacy. I'm sorry, but any one who continues to claim (depsite all the glaring and blatant evidence to the contrary) that QoS is not heavily influenced by the Bourne franchise is utterly deluded. And I say that as a big fan of QoS. QoS is Bond's tribute to the excellent Bourne franchise. I personally felt that Bond needed to respond to Bourne, but would have preferred it if the references weren't quite so blatant. Hopefully SF will see Bond fully recovered from this inferiority complex.

    Open your bloody eyes man, and get a better argument if you're going to try and shove this down our throats. Bond is going to confront the MAN WHO WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR VESPER'S INVOLVEMENT WITH QUANTUM AND SUBSEQUENT DEATH, AND HE IS RECRUITING ANOTHER WOMAN TO DO THE SAME THING TO! How else is Bond going to handle that situation? Smile and dance? Seriously man, HE IS GOING TO BE SERIOUS!!! HE LOVED HER, SO HE WILL OBVIOUSLY TAKE THE SITUATION AS MORE THAN SERIOUS. Bourne is telling the daughter of Mr. and Mrs. Neski that he killed them in cold blood, as a bloody assassin, and how is HE supposed to act differently there than serious? Should he dance too? No, you'd probably compare that to Bond as well SOMEHOW. Now on to style. Bourne on the other hand is confessing, while Yusef is the one who is doing the confessing, so the style isn't the same at all, and Yusef's answer to Bond is offscreen, while we hear all of Bourne's dialogue with Neski's daughter, and her reaction. Bad argument there. And are you really trying to argue that the location is a copy? Last time I checked Bourne hasn't been to Lake Como, Bregenz, Siena, Bolivia, or the damn Bolivian desert for that matter, so just one little location is enough for you to think Bond copied Bourne. It's Kazan, and not even a copy of the locations used in any Bourne film! It's not Moscow at all! Bond is allowed to use Russian locations, and you're argument is that Bond is copying Bourne by being in Russia? It is a great setting for drama, so why not? Is Ethan Hunt a copy now too just because he went to Russia? Last time I checked Bourne doesn't own Russia, and just because a film is set there, especially films in the spy genre, doesn't mean they are being copycats. Just think a little, please. And now, plot resolution. Which is again a horrible argument here. Neski's daughter simply cries, and we never get much out of her for resolution, and Bourne just walks away, satisfied that he confessed to his demons. Bond on the other hand has an offscreen meeting with Yusef, so how are we to know the resolution there if we never heard it? All we know is that Bond forgives Vesper and just wants to move on, and even that is open to interpretation. The ending to QoS could be taken many ways, especially with how Bond is feeling, while Bourne's is obvious and doesn't let you wonder really, because there is nothing to wonder. We knew Bourne wanted to confess, and he does. We don't know what Bond did or said, so it is hard to say what he did with Yusef. The resolution isn't the same at all, or what Bond and Bourne respectively aimed to achieve. Even their relationships were different with the women they loved, and each complex in their own way. So, @Getafix, please at least try to make better arguments in the future, and feel free to be more clever than "Bond is just a Bourne copy anymore". I wonder what people like you would do if the Bourne films didn't exist. You'd have to look harder for comparisons, or you might actually have to think a bit about QoS. Crazy, huh?!
  • edited May 2012 Posts: 11,425


    This is like having a debate with a flat-earther. If I pointed at the moon and said, 'look, there's the moon', you'd probably deny it.

    The evidence is right before you. Just try opening you eyes.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    edited May 2012 Posts: 28,694
    Getafix wrote:
    This is like having a debate with a flat-earther. If I pointed at the moon and said, 'look, there's the moon', you'd probably deny it.

    The evidence is right before. Just try opening you eyes.

    Did you even read my post?

    I have my eyes wide open. I know QoS and Bourne backwards and forwards, and my friend, in your arguments I see BS. Your baseless claims are annoying.
  • edited May 2012 Posts: 11,425
    Getafix wrote:
    This is like having a debate with a flat-earther. If I pointed at the moon and said, 'look, there's the moon', you'd probably deny it.

    The evidence is right before. Just try opening you eyes.

    Did you even read my post?

    I have my eyes wide open. I know QoS and Bourne backwards and forwards, and my friend, in your arguments I see BS. Your baseless claims are annoying.

    Calm down dear, it's only a Bond thread.

    I skim read it. It was barely coherent gibberish.

    I didn't say Bond is a Bourne copy. I said QoS has many elements that appear entirely lifted from Bourne, the ending being one of them. Add in the jump across the street in the Sienna scene, the utterly Bourne close-quarters fighting and you get the gist of my argument.

    I think it's best if we leave it at that.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Getafix wrote:
    Getafix wrote:
    This is like having a debate with a flat-earther. If I pointed at the moon and said, 'look, there's the moon', you'd probably deny it.

    The evidence is right before. Just try opening you eyes.

    Did you even read my post?

    I have my eyes wide open. I know QoS and Bourne backwards and forwards, and my friend, in your arguments I see BS. Your baseless claims are annoying.

    Calm down dear, it's only a Bond thread.

    I skim read it. It was barely coherent gibberish.

    I didn't say Bond is a Bourne copy. I said QoS has many elements that appear entirely lifted from Bourne, the ending being one of them.

    I think it's best if we leave it at that.

    Don't treat me like a child. You "skim read it", huh? Well there lies the problem. You tell me to open my eyes, yet yours are so closed you can't bother to read my absolute burning of your unfounded argument. We should leave it as this, because you will always be this way, and be completely blind to what QoS has to offer. Play the fool. At least there are people like @actonsteve here that understand it is no way to live.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Dear, oh dear. I'm actually one of the biggest supporters of QoS on here, but yes, let's leave this pointless slanging match here.
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,423
    You Only Live Twice has the twin genius’s of Barry and Adam. But, it’s too damn epic, so

    Quantum of Solace
  • Posts: 12,837
    The only thing I think QOS has that's similar to Bourne is the action/editing. Other than that, it's completely different. But I wish it had been a bit more fun, like CR was.
  • Posts: 11,425
    The only thing I think QOS has that's similar to Bourne is the action/editing.

    Point made, I think.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Getafix wrote:
    The only thing I think QOS has that's similar to Bourne is the action/editing.

    Point made, I think.
    If we're off it, why keep discussing? There are plenty of other places to go and be in denial @Getafix.
  • QsAssistantQsAssistant All those moments lost in time... like tears in rain
    Posts: 1,812
    You Only Live Twice

    It's in my top five, maybe even three.
  • Posts: 1,492
    [

    It's not pretentious. I'm not acting like I am the messiah of Bond and everything I say is right. Is it wrong to want to be challenged by a Bond film that isn't afraid to add in brilliant drama and characterization? No, it isn't, and I get sick of the action, action, mindless fun, action that I have seen before. Films like that get tiring, because sometimes I want to think when I watch a film, and instead of going to Nolan every time, I can now go to CR, QoS, and now hopefully Skyfall. Drama is a sign that Bond is growing up, and it needs to step up its game.

    I am with you 200%

    The films I love most in the classic series are the ones which have that little more meat on the bone ie FRWL, OHMSS, TLD, FYEO,LTK even bits of TB and Spy. Loud bangs and car chases are fine when you are 12.But as you get older....

  • edited May 2012 Posts: 11,189
    But a lot of the drama isn't really all that memorable though is it? At least not compared to the Shaw/Connery showdown or the shower scene in CR

    I agree too @actonsteve but all the films u mention were more captivating, more engaging and yes more fun than QoS was. yet they were also 'grown up' films

    Plus QoS had it's fair share of 'bangs and car chases' - all thrust in there to cover the holes in the thin story (2 big chases in under 10 minutes?)

    Compared to OHMSS, FRWL, GF, CR and GE (my top 5 Bond films) QOS is a dullard
  • Posts: 1,492
    BAIN123 wrote:
    But a lot of the drama isn't really all that memorable though is it? At least not compared to the Shaw/Connery showdown or the shower scene in CR

    I would say the hunting down and cornering of Yusef and Bond nearly mercy killing Camille as the fire rages around them is pretty memorable.

    And you think QoS is a dullard while others of us lap it up.

  • edited May 2012 Posts: 12,837
    Sorry but I can't get into QOS. Craig is good, but not on the level he was in CR. I like some of the story (Camilles backstory, Bond going after Yusef), and some scenes are very good (the whole opera sequence was classic), but the shaky cam action, the villian and the whole confusing water plot let it down for me and it sits at 23 (I count NSNA), in my rankings.
    QOS suffers a lot from people treating it as a standalone film rather than a companion piece to CR.

    Actually this sort of lets it down more for me. Coming of CR, and knowing this was sort of a continuation, I was expecting something better.


    Anyway, why has this become a QOS discussion thread? For the next round, how about TSWLM vs DN (if it hasn't been done before).
  • Sorry but I can't get into QOS. Craig is good, but not on the level he was in CR. I like some of the story (Camilles backstory, Bond going after Yusef), and some scenes are very good (the whole opera sequence was classic), but the shaky cam action, the villian and the whole confusing water plot let it down for me and it sits at 23 (I count NSNA), in my rankings.
    QOS suffers a lot from people treating it as a standalone film rather than a companion piece to CR.

    Actually this sort of lets it down more for me. Coming of CR, and knowing this was sort of a continuation, I was expecting something better.


    Anyway, why has this become a QOS discussion thread? For the next round, how about TSWLM vs DN (if it hasn't been done before).

    You're right, we should move on. but before we do...

    1. I can't tell you not to count NSNA, but it really isn't fair to the other films to do so.

    2. If you actually truly believe that a Thunderball remake, and a bad one at that, is better than an official Bond film, for lack of a better word, that is wacked out. And just so ANYONE doesn't think I'm a Craig fanboy because it happens to be QOS, I would rather watch Moonraker and Die Another Day. NSNA is an abortion. No self-respecting Bond fan should own a copy, let alone rank it ahead of an EON entry. End of discussion.

  • Posts: 12,837
    Sorry but I can't get into QOS. Craig is good, but not on the level he was in CR. I like some of the story (Camilles backstory, Bond going after Yusef), and some scenes are very good (the whole opera sequence was classic), but the shaky cam action, the villian and the whole confusing water plot let it down for me and it sits at 23 (I count NSNA), in my rankings.
    QOS suffers a lot from people treating it as a standalone film rather than a companion piece to CR.

    Actually this sort of lets it down more for me. Coming of CR, and knowing this was sort of a continuation, I was expecting something better.


    Anyway, why has this become a QOS discussion thread? For the next round, how about TSWLM vs DN (if it hasn't been done before).

    You're right, we should move on. but before we do...

    1. I can't tell you not to count NSNA, but it really isn't fair to the other films to do so.

    2. If you actually truly believe that a Thunderball remake, and a bad one at that, is better than an official Bond film, for lack of a better word, that is wacked out. And just so ANYONE doesn't think I'm a Craig fanboy because it happens to be QOS, I would rather watch Moonraker and Die Another Day. NSNA is an abortion. No self-respecting Bond fan should own a copy, let alone rank it ahead of an EON entry. End of discussion.

    Someone doesn't like NSNA, haha. I just gave my thoughts on it in the debate thread actually.
    It might not be official but I still count it. Mainly because I really enjoyed it, even if it was basically TB. I didn't know it existed until the late 90s (when I'd already seen most of the Bond films). So it was cool discovering another Connery film and it was also cool seeing an older Bond (who admits he's old, not like in AVTAK). And Rowan Atkinson (aka Blackadder, Mr Bean, Johnny English), is in it, Max Von Sydow makes an awesome Blofeld, and for the first time ever Bond is on a motorbike.

    A much better send off than Connery got in DAF, and I think it's almost good as the original TB.

  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    edited May 2012 Posts: 28,694
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