"Dont blow it all at once ": Die Another Day Appreciation Thread

Getafix

Yes I agree with you - he would probably be able to fence. But the question is, should he be doing it? To me fencing is a touch limp-wristed. Something the wimps would do while the rugger buggers were outside beating the cr*p out of each other on the pitch. Brozza also looks like a bit of an idiot dressed up in that daft fencing outfit. My point was, is fencing sufficiently Bondian? I daresay Bond is good at a lot of things - Lacrosse and needle-work - but are these appropriate things for him to be caught doing on screen? Had Bond found himself in a situation where he was unexpectedly obliged to take up a blade in self defence then a sword fight might have worked - but in this case, IMO obviously - it feels forced and wrong.

Murdock

Maybe Bond learned fencing while attending Eton.

SirHenryLeeChaChing

Being a fan of the old Flynn/Power sword fighting films from my Dad watching them, I felt this scene was well done and one of the few scenes I enjoy in the film. Watching Bond and Graves getting angrier and more manic with each thrust and parry was good stuff as far as I'm concerned, and not out of the realm of Bond's expertise in fighting skills.

Getafix

Err... my point was never about whether Bond would be able to fence.

I was pondering whether it was an appropriate thing for the screen Bond to do. My view was that it looks daft and anachronistic. There is something faintly absurd about men in tight-fitting outfits waving pointy kebab skewers at each other, while resting one limp arm on their hips. Perhaps I'm alone in seeing it this way, but to my mind fencing does not sit alongside skiing as an appropriate passtime for 007. I would be all up for seeing Bond doing something cool that he hasn't done before, but for my money, that time they got it wrong.

Murdock

Getafix wrote:

Err... my point was never about whether Bond would be able to fence.

I was pondering whether it was an appropriate thing for the screen Bond to do. My view was that it looks daft and anachronistic. There is something faintly absurd about men in tight-fitting outfits waving point spiked things at each other, while resting one limp arm on their hips. Perhaps I'm alone in seeing it this way, but to my mind fencing does not sit alongside skiing and golf as appropriate passtimes for 007.

It's not 100% Bondian but, the scene was pretty good. Bond was investigating Graves, he wanted to meet him and he knew exactly what he was getting into. :)

Getafix

May be it's just the stupid outfits that ruined it for me.

Getafix

TheWizardOfIce wrote:

Getafix wrote:

I found the sword fight a weird throw-back to the Errol Flynn movies of the 1930s. I'm sure Fleming's Bond could fence but should the screen Bond really be doing this? It adds to a whole list of things that for me seemed out of character during the Brosnan era. Other things were the excessive use of machine guns and his much commented upon pain face. It wasn't always Brozza's fault but I felt the character during this period was constantly being made to do things or act in a way that didn't fit Bond. Just my view.

Of course Bond would be able to fence. Even the modernised Brozza or Craig Bonds didnt go to a local comp. Bond wouldve gone to a rugger school where they also did cricket and athletics (victor ludorum naturally) and fencing would also have been on the syllabus. Bet hes shit at football though - although he is Bond so can probably ping one in the top corner from 40 yards.

Unlike a lot of people I'm not blown away by the swordfight scene. I like the fencing aspect and Brozzas kick of the foil into the camera is one of thes best moments of the film (complete luck Tamahori admits in the DVD commentary - well I didnt think it was down to you Lee). But the wanton destruction of Blades fits uneasily with me. I cant see Flemings Bond doing this and in a place like that it doesnt matter how much money you have (everyone there would be loaded) Graves would be banned for life. OK I suppose you can say Graves is a prick and Bond is defending himself but still. I think the difference here between the museum fight in MR which I like a lot more is that Bond is fighting for his life there so the vandalism is justified but here its just a bit of (albeit rather heated) sport.

I agree with you about the machine guns though. The last half hour of TND is a massive let down and Bond just strutting round the stealth ship blowing people away like Arnie is very poor. Did Connery ever brandish a machine gun? Off the top of my head the only time that springs to mind is NSNA.

Pain face theres no defence - its just poor acting.

Actually, as an Old Etonian, the emphasis would have been on football as much as rugby. Or so I've heard.

SirHenryLeeChaChing

@ Getafix- Normally we agree a lot but I disagree with your view on golf and skiing relative to Bond. We see golf references as far back as Dr. No, and golf is a nice relaxing way to enjoy some quiet time out in nature with your buddies. Rich or poor or in between, it's something many people enjoy. As far as skiing it's a great skill for Bond to have when he travels to cold weather climates, and has provided some great moments in the series such as the TSWLM chase and Union Jack jump.

Getafix

SirHenryLeeChaChing wrote:

@ Getafix- Normally we agree a lot but I disagree with your view on golf and skiing relative to Bond. We see golf references as far back as Dr. No, and golf is a nice relaxing way to enjoy some quiet time out in nature with your buddies. Rich or poor or in between, it's something many people enjoy. As far as skiing it's a great skill for Bond to have when he travels to cold weather climates, and has provided some great moments in the series such as the TSWLM chase and Union Jack jump.

I think you've misunderstood me, or I misunderstand what you're saying.

I said:

"to my mind fencing does not sit alongside skiing and golf as appropriate passtimes for 007"

I am comfortable with Bond on the golf course and obviously the slopes are his natural habitat. My problem was with fencing and only fencing. Happy to see Bond out practicing his swing or in an alpine chase sequence any time.

BAIN123

Something the wimps would do while the rugger buggers were outside beating the cr*p out of each other on the pitch. Brozza also looks like a bit of an idiot dressed up in that daft fencing outfit. My point was, is fencing sufficiently Bondian? I daresay Bond is good at a lot of things - Lacrosse and needle-work - but are these appropriate things for him to be caught doing on screen?

(*sighs*) No offence @getafix but you really think about this way too much. There's probably a lot of things throughout the movies Fleming's Bond wouldn't be caught doing:

-swinging like Tarzan
-going into space
-windsurfing a glacia
-making a quiche
-disobeying M and going on his own personal vendetta (I don't care what people say - Fleming's Bond would have more discipline than that)

Whether or not he'd fence is a fairly trivial one. I actually think its one of the better scenes in the film.

Don't forget also that it was Graves who was the 'professional', experienced fencer - not Bond. But because he is 007 he has to win the "match".

For all we know Bond may well have found it "faintly absurd" but that doesn't mean he wouldn't have risen to the challenge (pun intended).

(Incidently, do you know who used to play Rugby when they were at school? Pierce Brosnan. Meh :p )

FromCanadaWithLove

If the title of this thread is "DAD is actually pretty good!", then you know it's bad. If it were good, 'actually' and 'pretty' wouldn't be needed. I'll give you an example.

Diamonds Are Forever is good! (FALSE)
Diamonds Are Forever is actually pretty good! (Because you all know it's terrible anyways)

Creasy47

@FromCanadaWithLove, actually, we don't know that, because '______ is good' is not a true or false statement. What I enjoy, others might not. That's what opinions are for.

@TheWizardOfIce created it stating that he re-watched DAD after a period of time and found that it did have some good Bondian moments. Thus, the thread title comes from his own opinion. I just don't see why people cannot get into their heads that opinions are not facts. So, for an example that actually works:

Fact: Steven Spielberg's 'Munich' was nominated for a Best Picture award at the Oscars.
Opinion: 'Goldeneye' is the best Bond film.

00Beast

@Creasy47: GoldenEye as the best Bond movie is only an opinion? Oh wow, I always believed it to be plain and simple fact! Hahahaha.

Creasy47

Hahaha, in my own little world, @00Beast, GE is definitely the best Bond film - fact! But see, to us, that's just how we see it: GE is the best Bond film. To someone else, that might be DN, LALD, CR, even the lesser-loved ones like MR and DAD. That's what makes this site so different. If we all loathed the aforementioned films and praised the highly-acclaimed ones, this site would be incredibly dull.

00Beast

Creasy47 wrote:

Hahaha, in my own little world, @00Beast, GE is definitely the best Bond film - fact! But see, to us, that's just how we see it: GE is the best Bond film. To someone else, that might be DN, LALD, CR, even the lesser-loved ones like MR and DAD. That's what makes this site so different. If we all loathed the aforementioned films and praised the highly-acclaimed ones, this site would be incredibly dull.

Amen to that! Of course the difference is, we are correct in our beliefs, hahahaha.

thelivingroyale

00Beast wrote:

@Creasy47: GoldenEye as the best Bond movie is only an opinion? Oh wow, I always believed it to be plain and simple fact! Hahahaha.

GE is great and everything, but the best? Nah, you're forgetting another 2 films ;) Take a guess which.

4EverBonded

thelivingroyale wrote:

00Beast wrote:

@Creasy47: GoldenEye as the best Bond movie is only an opinion? Oh wow, I always believed it to be plain and simple fact! Hahahaha.

GE is great and everything, but the best? Nah, you're forgetting another 2 films ;) Take a guess which.

And indeed that is why you have so many votes in that other thread for final voting (0Brady's).

TheWizardOfIce

Getafix wrote:

Err... my point was never about whether Bond would be able to fence.

I was pondering whether it was an appropriate thing for the screen Bond to do. My view was that it looks daft and anachronistic. There is something faintly absurd about men in tight-fitting outfits waving pointy kebab skewers at each other, while resting one limp arm on their hips. Perhaps I'm alone in seeing it this way, but to my mind fencing does not sit alongside skiing as an appropriate passtime for 007. I would be all up for seeing Bond doing something cool that he hasn't done before, but for my money, that time they got it wrong.

You're way off the mark here Getafix. Fencing is a totally Bondian sport. It's a gentlemens way of fighting where you are expected to play by the rules and not to mention you do get hurt. It needs skill, grace, timing, balance, tactics, reflexes - all the things I would associate with Bond in a fight. He's not a thug - what would you have him do? Cage fighting, wrestling?
Presumably with it's association with old people you object to Bond playing bridge as well - when it's actually possibly Flemings best bit of writing.

Fleming I'm sure would've tried his hand at it and would approve. My only surprise is it took so long to see it (although in the museum fight in MR when he picks up a sword you can see adopts a fencing stance and technique).

BAIN123

TheWizardOfIce wrote:

Getafix wrote:

Err... my point was never about whether Bond would be able to fence.

I was pondering whether it was an appropriate thing for the screen Bond to do. My view was that it looks daft and anachronistic. There is something faintly absurd about men in tight-fitting outfits waving pointy kebab skewers at each other, while resting one limp arm on their hips. Perhaps I'm alone in seeing it this way, but to my mind fencing does not sit alongside skiing as an appropriate passtime for 007. I would be all up for seeing Bond doing something cool that he hasn't done before, but for my money, that time they got it wrong.

You're way off the mark here Getafix. Fencing is a totally Bondian sport. It's a gentlemens way of fighting where you are expected to play by the rules and not to mention you do get hurt. It needs skill, grace, timing, balance, tactics, reflexes - all the things I would associate with Bond in a fight. He's not a thug - what would you have him do? Cage fighting, wrestling?
Presumably with it's association with old people you object to Bond playing bridge as well - when it's actually possibly Flemings best bit of writing.

Fleming I'm sure would've tried his hand at it and would approve. My only surprise is it took so long to see it (although in the museum fight in MR when he picks up a sword you can see adopts a fencing stance and technique).

I'd love to see Getafix and Brozza's 007 in a cage match :))

SirHenryLeeChaChing

I'll take Getafix to win over Brosnan and Sir Roger in a handicap match. Brosnan would be too busy trying to figure out how Bond would handle this situation and by then it would be too late to make the tag, because Sir Roger would have sent him out to start the match, decide that this isn't his sort of thing, and get busy "Rogerizing" an attractive woman at ringside :D

SirHenryLeeChaChing

thelivingroyale wrote:

00Beast wrote:

@Creasy47: GoldenEye as the best Bond movie is only an opinion? Oh wow, I always believed it to be plain and simple fact! Hahahaha.

GE is great and everything, but the best? Nah, you're forgetting another 2 films ;) Take a guess which.

Those and about 8-9 other films including two classics he deems as "boring" that GE can't touch.

thelivingroyale

I actually see where he's coming from on GF, which can be a bit boring at times, especially during the jail sequences and everything. But OHMSS has always entertained me through the whole film.

And GE does more than touch them, it races ahead of them ;)

Getafix

BAIN123 wrote:

Something the wimps would do while the rugger buggers were outside beating the cr*p out of each other on the pitch. Brozza also looks like a bit of an idiot dressed up in that daft fencing outfit. My point was, is fencing sufficiently Bondian? I daresay Bond is good at a lot of things - Lacrosse and needle-work - but are these appropriate things for him to be caught doing on screen?

(*sighs*) No offence @getafix but you really think about this way too much. There's probably a lot of things throughout the movies Fleming's Bond wouldn't be caught doing:

-swinging like Tarzan
-going into space
-windsurfing a glacia
-making a quiche
-disobeying M and going on his own personal vendetta (I don't care what people say - Fleming's Bond would have more discipline than that)

Whether or not he'd fence is a fairly trivial one. I actually think its one of the better scenes in the film.

Don't forget also that it was Graves who was the 'professional', experienced fencer - not Bond. But because he is 007 he has to win the "match".

For all we know Bond may well have found it "faintly absurd" but that doesn't mean he wouldn't have risen to the challenge (pun intended).

(Incidently, do you know who used to play Rugby when they were at school? Pierce Brosnan. Meh :p )

I actually agree that most of the things on your list are out of character. One of my biggest issues with LTK was always the scene where Dalts jumps the railing and does a runner from M. It never sat well with me. For me that moment marks the beginning of a most unwelcome trend of playing around with the Bond character too much.

Did Brozza really play rugby? I suppose a lot of people do. He looks like such a wet in GE though its difficult to imagine. I thought DC was the big rugby man?

Getafix

TheWizardOfIce wrote:

Getafix wrote:

Err... my point was never about whether Bond would be able to fence.

I was pondering whether it was an appropriate thing for the screen Bond to do. My view was that it looks daft and anachronistic. There is something faintly absurd about men in tight-fitting outfits waving pointy kebab skewers at each other, while resting one limp arm on their hips. Perhaps I'm alone in seeing it this way, but to my mind fencing does not sit alongside skiing as an appropriate passtime for 007. I would be all up for seeing Bond doing something cool that he hasn't done before, but for my money, that time they got it wrong.

You're way off the mark here Getafix. Fencing is a totally Bondian sport. It's a gentlemens way of fighting where you are expected to play by the rules and not to mention you do get hurt. It needs skill, grace, timing, balance, tactics, reflexes - all the things I would associate with Bond in a fight. He's not a thug - what would you have him do? Cage fighting, wrestling?
Presumably with it's association with old people you object to Bond playing bridge as well - when it's actually possibly Flemings best bit of writing.

Fleming I'm sure would've tried his hand at it and would approve. My only surprise is it took so long to see it (although in the museum fight in MR when he picks up a sword you can see adopts a fencing stance and technique).

Fencing is literary Bondian? Perhaps. Again though I am really talking about screen Bond and what seems to fit the character. Is screen Bond a gentleman? I'm not entirely sure - yes and no. Fencing is too prissy for screen Bond. I think boxing would be more up his street, and not necessarily Queensbury rules. In my mind, underneath the tailored suit, there is a bit of the street fighter about him and a willingness to improvise and twist the rules to win. These are arguably more genuinely English traits than the mythical fair play of the English. Many other nations regard us as moneygrubbing double dealing colonialists who'd do anything for a quick buck. Witness the City of London where the true English culture continues to thrive.

Getafix

Getafix wrote:

TheWizardOfIce wrote:

Getafix wrote:

Err... my point was never about whether Bond would be able to fence.

I was pondering whether it was an appropriate thing for the screen Bond to do. My view was that it looks daft and anachronistic. There is something faintly absurd about men in tight-fitting outfits waving pointy kebab skewers at each other, while resting one limp arm on their hips. Perhaps I'm alone in seeing it this way, but to my mind fencing does not sit alongside skiing as an appropriate passtime for 007. I would be all up for seeing Bond doing something cool that he hasn't done before, but for my money, that time they got it wrong.

You're way off the mark here Getafix. Fencing is a totally Bondian sport. It's a gentlemens way of fighting where you are expected to play by the rules and not to mention you do get hurt. It needs skill, grace, timing, balance, tactics, reflexes - all the things I would associate with Bond in a fight. He's not a thug - what would you have him do? Cage fighting, wrestling?
Presumably with it's association with old people you object to Bond playing bridge as well - when it's actually possibly Flemings best bit of writing.

Fleming I'm sure would've tried his hand at it and would approve. My only surprise is it took so long to see it (although in the museum fight in MR when he picks up a sword you can see adopts a fencing stance and technique).

Fencing is Bondian? Perhaps. Certainly he would be able to turn his hand to it if required. Again though I am really talking about screen Bond and what seems to fit the character. Is screen Bond a gentleman? I'm not entirely sure - yes and no. Fencing is too prissy for screen Bond. I think boxing would be more up his street, and not necessarily Queensbury rules. In my mind, underneath the tailored suit, there is a bit of the street fighter about him and a willingness to improvise and twist the rules to win. These are arguably more genuinely English traits than our mythical fair play. Many other nations regard us as moneygrubbing double dealing colonialists who'd do anything for a quick buck. Witness the City of London where the true English culture continues to thrive.

thelivingroyale

Getafix wrote:

Did Brozza really play rugby? I suppose a lot of people do. He looks like such a wet in GE though its difficult to imagine. I thought DC was the big rugby man?

I think DC is more of a footie man (but he's a Liverpool fan, so meh). Brosnan did play rugby.

BAIN123

Apparently Brozza did. He said so in an an interview. Also, in the "actors studio" interview there's a shot of him early on in what looks like rugby gear.

Brozza does look quite puney at times but he seems quite adgile and quick on his feet. That would be a big asset.

00Beast

SirHenryLeeChaChing wrote:

thelivingroyale wrote:

00Beast wrote:

@Creasy47: GoldenEye as the best Bond movie is only an opinion? Oh wow, I always believed it to be plain and simple fact! Hahahaha.

GE is great and everything, but the best? Nah, you're forgetting another 2 films ;) Take a guess which.

Those and about 8-9 other films including two classics he deems as "boring" that GE can't touch.

Oh GoldenEye does more than touch them.....it DESTROYS them! I can't even compare the majestic GE to the likes of GF and OHMSS. The latter two are incredibly difficult to make it through; it is almost painstaking to put them into the DVD player at times because I know I'll end up getting bored along the way. When I put GE into the DVD player, I want it to move even slower so I can have more time to enjoy such an amazingly made movie!

actonsteve

00Beast wrote:

SirHenryLeeChaChing wrote:

thelivingroyale wrote:

00Beast wrote:

@Creasy47: GoldenEye as the best Bond movie is only an opinion? Oh wow, I always believed it to be plain and simple fact! Hahahaha.

GE is great and everything, but the best? Nah, you're forgetting another 2 films ;) Take a guess which.

Those and about 8-9 other films including two classics he deems as "boring" that GE can't touch.

Oh GoldenEye does more than touch them.....it DESTROYS them! I can't even compare the majestic GE to the likes of GF and OHMSS. The latter two are incredibly difficult to make it through; it is almost painstaking to put them into the DVD player at times because I know I'll end up getting bored along the way. When I put GE into the DVD player, I want it to move even slower so I can have more time to enjoy such an amazingly made movie!

Well, I stuck GE on the other day after not seeing it for five years and...

I have changed its ranking in my top 22.

Its now 20. TND actually beats it.

Anyway, is this bloody thread STILL going? Its like the creature/thread that cannot die...

SirHenryLeeChaChing

00Beast wrote:

SirHenryLeeChaChing wrote:

thelivingroyale wrote:

00Beast wrote:

@Creasy47: GoldenEye as the best Bond movie is only an opinion? Oh wow, I always believed it to be plain and simple fact! Hahahaha.

GE is great and everything, but the best? Nah, you're forgetting another 2 films ;) Take a guess which.

Those and about 8-9 other films including two classics he deems as "boring" that GE can't touch.

Oh GoldenEye does more than touch them.....it DESTROYS them! I can't even compare the majestic GE to the likes of GF and OHMSS. The latter two are incredibly difficult to make it through; it is almost painstaking to put them into the DVD player at times because I know I'll end up getting bored along the way. When I put GE into the DVD player, I want it to move even slower so I can have more time to enjoy such an amazingly made movie!

Naturally, you are welcome to your opinion. But it's like I keep saying, you just don't understand true cinematic Bond classics if you don't appreciate GF and OHMSS. Maybe someday when you grow older and more mature, you'll realize that Bond is more than slam bang action and requires some thought.