Would you forgo the Brosnan Era to add to the Dalton era?

Baltimore_007

No matter how we feel about each actor or own personal favorites it's fair to say that at each stage in time, every James Bond actor has been open to ridicule or castigation at one point or another. I think that's fair enough in retrospect

BAIN123

Getafix wrote:

BAIN123 wrote:

Getafix wrote:

BAIN123 wrote:

I do a bit bad for Dalts in a way :( He's the underdog of the Bond franchise.

I remember someone (who was around at the time) describing the reception each actor had:

"Connery was loved and admired
Lazenby was neither
Moore was loved but not admired
Dalton was admired but not loved
Brosnan was loved and admired
Craig divides opinion - A LOT"

Weren't you around at the time @Germanlady? I was too young.

I think there is a certain amount of disinformation put around about Dalts - namely that he wasn't popular and that he was overly serious. What this actually means in the 'business lingo' of the money men is that he wasn't well known in the US. I seem to remember TLD being a pretty solid hit in the UK and generally regarded as an improvement on AVTAK. TLD also did well internationally I believe. Fortunately the US market is no longer as vital to a movie's success as it used to be and so we hopefully won't have to put up with having another Brosnan foisted on us because he is supposedly what the US public wants.

I also think the 'darkness' aspects of Dalton's portrayal are overdone. TLD is an entertaining and often lighthearted movie, not a million miles away from the Moore era. LTK is certainly one of the more 'serious' films in the franchise, but since we never had a third Dalton film, it's impossible to say if this was intended to become the model for all future Dalton outings. I suspect that after the problems that LTK had with certificates and age ratings, they would have lightened up for Dalts 3.

Any way, in answer to the question, yes obviously even one more Dalton film would have been preferable to the drek we were served up during Operation Brozza.

I get the impression Dalton was loved more by the hardcore Bond fans than he was by wider audiences - a lot of whom who had grown up on Roger Moore. I was too young to remember first hand but it sounds like TLD was sucessful as was Dalton - though I don't get the feeling he ever set the world on fire despite what some may say.

Daylights is indeed a solid enjoyable movie delivering the right amount of espionage action and fun. There are a few issues I have with it but overall I enjoy it.

It was definitely Kill that seemed to ruin things for Dalton.

Here's an extract from an interview with Graham Rye:

OO7 seemed to heartily endorse Timothy Dalton’s Bond with many excellent issues and covers. Looking back, what do you think of the Dalton era now?

I think it was a valiant attempt by Timothy Dalton and the filmmakers to bring Bond back down to basics, nearer to the first two films in the series. At the time I think it was certainly the best Bond film since On Her Majesty’s Secret Service, although not really in quite the same class as George Lazenby’s one shot appearance as 007. Unfortunately with Licence To Kill I think Dalton’s influence for a darker more somber Bond backfired, and led the filmmakers up the wrong path. The film also wasn’t helped by a monumentally inadequate promotional campaign that just more or less said to the public, ‘ho hum here’s another James Bond movie.’ The James Bond of Licence To Kill, for me, is neither the Bond of Ian Fleming’s novels or the accepted movie version, the latter probably being nearer the reason for the film’s cool reception. Its international distributors UIP publicized that the film had grossed over $42,553,744 in the international market place, putting it substantially ahead of all other Bond films in the series at that time in its release. But this did little to dispel the feeling that the general public at large just weren’t on the same wavelength as Timothy Dalton’s interpretation of James Bond. Regardless of what the band of faithful believe, Timothy Dalton just wasn’t popular with the everyday cinema-going public. Regularly meeting people from all walks of life, if they discover my profession the conversation usually turns to a brief summary of who they think the best James Bond actor was, almost universally, especially from men, panning Timothy Dalton in the role, with George Lazenby running a close second.

I can enforce this. Other than one or two friends and faceless people on this forum most people I've talked to (including people old enough remember the Connery era) just didn't take to him. Even Connery has been quoted criticising him.

Also, here's an old review of TLD from The Radio Times:

This was Timothy Dalton's debut as 007 and it was already pretty clear that he lacked the necessary ironic touch that made the credibility-straining action seem fun rather than ridiculous. Director John Glen (making his fourth Bond, after second-unit and editing work on others) should have known better, and departed the scene along with Dalton after Licence to Kill. Although adapted from an Ian Fleming story, the plot is merely an excuse for a little globetrotting, as Bond tries to help Jeroen Krabbé's Soviet general to defect. Maryam D'Abo's Czech cellist and Joe Don Baker's arms dealer don't help much, either.
**

If any actor is the underdog of the Bond franchise its Dalton.

However I do feel that, in some ways, Dalton was "too serious" in that I can't imagine him using women (i.e. sex) to get what he wanted. Of all the Bond's he came off as the least "philanderous". Would that have changed with GE? Perhaps but we'll never know. Having grown up with that film I wouldn't change it for anything.

We can find quotes slating Connery or Moore if we look hard enough. The line from the Radio Times is hilarious, given what came later during the Brozza period - 'lacked the necessary ironic touch that made the credibility-straining action seem fun rather than ridiculous'. And are we supposed to take a throw away film review from the Radio Times seriously? TLD was a genuine hit in its time, with most critics rating Dalts pretty highly. As far as I'm aware it still remains pretty popular. LTK was for me a little off key (although it has good elements).

I'm not saying we should agree with it (I don't) but it does sort of show that Dalton hardly set the world on fire at the time.

TLD is fairly popular but I really wouldn't say it's a classic amongst general audiences in the way FRWL, GF, TB, TSWLM, OP and GE are.

Plenty of people bash Moore too - some valid some not.

I like The Radio Times. I respect it's views even if I don't agree with them.

HASEROT

if we still got GE as is, but insert Dalton in place of Brosnan... then i would welcome it with open arms...

now let me get working on a flux capacitor so i can make this happen..... see ya'll in the past ;)

BAIN123

Arrrgh!! I am the only one that enjoys that film as it is
~X(

Brosnan may have had his faults in that film but I do enjoy some of his lines

"in the end you're just a bank robber. Nothing more than a common thief"
"Beg your pardon. Forgot to knock" (yes I like that line)
"I used to drop in occasionally...shoot in and out"
"That depends on your definition of safe sex"
"What no small talk...no chit chat?"

0iker0

BAIN123 wrote:

Arrrgh!! I am the only one that enjoys that film as it is
~X(

Brosnan may have had his faults in that film but I do enjoy some of his lines

"in the end you're just a bank robber. Nothing more than a common thief"
"I used to drop in occasionally...shoot in and out"
"That depends on your definition of safe sex"
"What no small talk...no chit chat?"

+1

HASEROT

BAIN123 wrote:

Arrrgh!! I am the only one that enjoys that film as it is
~X(

Brosnan may have had his faults in that film but I do enjoy some of his lines

"in the end you're just a bank robber. Nothing more than a common thief"
"Beg your pardon. Forgot to knock" (yes I like that line)
"I used to drop in occasionally...shoot in and out"
"That depends on your definition of safe sex"
"What no small talk...no chit chat?"

no you're not... its one of my top favs in the Bond series, and it was Brosnan's best Bond film......

but..... with that being said..... there is something about wanting to see Dalton in that film that really peaks my interest - i mean, the film was written for him initially, so...... but thats why i said keep everything about the film the same - same lines, same shots, same actors - just swap Broz for Dalts (hypothetically)

BAIN123

It would have been interesting to see how Dalts would have handelled it. I'll give you that. Nonetheless i still feel that without Brosnan we wouldn't have had Isabella and (perhaps) Bean.

NicNac

Germanlady wrote:

Its really strange - as it is proved that Tim Dalton was not much of a hit but still - some here seem to go out of their way to prove otherwise. He tried to be the tough Bond, but the audience didn't love him...no more, no less can be said about him. I truly believe - had he gone on - Bond would be dead by now, as the general audience just couldn't find a love for him. He is not really sexy nor was he a real tough Bond - he was rather "playing" tough, but not exuding the goods...so in the end - Bond is either sexy playful or sexy tough, but never ????

Well I found my opinion on page 1 of this thread posted by @Germanlady and this is pretty much what I agree with.
Dalton was not popular with critics or the public at large (Brosnan was) and there's no need bleeting about if he had continued as it was financially unviable for him to do so.
I like the terms 'sexy playful' and 'sexy tough' and I agree that he was neither of these.

Sorry chaps. Brosnan was better for the series simply because he kept it going.

identigraph

Maybe the 80's was just not the best time for Bond films, i have always felt that the 80's was a very contemporary era, it was all about new things, old stuff was not cool and of course there were lots of big budget blockbusters coming out at this time. Bond had been around for 20 odd years so was probably seen as a bit out dated at the time. Looking at the figures in todays terms OP would be the last 80's film to be in the 400 million bracket, AVTAK, TLD and LTK are around the 250-300 million bracket, which are still decent figures for the 14th,15th and 16th films in a series.

I think it is fair to say that Dalton didn't really excite the masses but I think maybe it was also not the best time to become the new Bond. He would have benefited from a longer break, like Brosnan had with GE.

HASEROT

identigraph wrote:

Maybe the 80's was just not the best time for Bond films, i have always felt that the 80's was a very contemporary era, it was all about new things, old stuff was not cool and of course there were lots of big budget blockbusters coming out at this time. Bond had been around for 20 odd years so was probably seen as a bit out dated at the time. Looking at the figures in todays terms OP would be the last 80's film to be in the 400 million bracket, AVTAK, TLD and LTK are around the 250-300 million bracket, which are still decent figures for the 14th,15th and 16th films in a series.

I think it is fair to say that Dalton didn't really excite the masses but I think maybe it was also not the best time to become the new Bond. He would have benefited from a longer break, like Brosnan had with GE.

well... Dalton had to work against the court of public opinion as well - as they all but demanded Brosnan take over the role... in their eyes, no one else was Bond but Brosnan, and i don't think Dalts take won over very many Broz supporters.... his films did well, but i can't imagine that they didn't take a hit because of the demand for Brosnan at the time.

DaltonCraig007

BAIN123 wrote:

Arrrgh!! I am the only one that enjoys that film as it is
~X(

Brosnan may have had his faults in that film but I do enjoy some of his lines

"in the end you're just a bank robber. Nothing more than a common thief"
"Beg your pardon. Forgot to knock" (yes I like that line)
"I used to drop in occasionally...shoot in and out"
"That depends on your definition of safe sex"
"What no small talk...no chit chat?"

You're not the only one. I love everything about GE. :)>-

Getafix

BAIN123 wrote:

It would have been interesting to see how Dalts would have handelled it. I'll give you that. Nonetheless i still feel that without Brosnan we wouldn't have had Isabella and (perhaps) Bean.

That might have improved it. Bean was okay but hardly a classic villain and Isabella was plain awful although I appreciate a young fan watching his first Bond might have seen it differently.

I personally would obviously dispute the whole concept the GE is any kind of classic it at all. I remember going to see it at the cinema and coming out utterly underwhelmed and already having a sinking feeling about what the Brosnan era was going to bring.

BAIN123

I LOVE Isabella. My favourite Bond girl. Wouldn't change her for ANYTHING. Would take her over that wet blanket in TLD anyday of the week.

The fact I can quote about 90% of the dialogue off the top of my head should tell you how much I love that film.

Getafix

NicNac wrote:

Germanlady wrote:

Its really strange - as it is proved that Tim Dalton was not much of a hit but still - some here seem to go out of their way to prove otherwise. He tried to be the tough Bond, but the audience didn't love him...no more, no less can be said about him. I truly believe - had he gone on - Bond would be dead by now, as the general audience just couldn't find a love for him. He is not really sexy nor was he a real tough Bond - he was rather "playing" tough, but not exuding the goods...so in the end - Bond is either sexy playful or sexy tough, but never ????

Well I found my opinion on page 1 of this thread posted by @Germanlady and this is pretty much what I agree with.
Dalton was not popular with critics or the public at large (Brosnan was) and there's no need bleeting about if he had continued as it was financially unviable for him to do so.
I like the terms 'sexy playful' and 'sexy tough' and I agree that he was neither of these.

Sorry chaps. Brosnan was better for the series simply because he kept it going.

For me this is Brosnan's only virtue - that he kept the series going. But at what price? There is not a single Brosnan film I would choose to re-watch. Roger kept the show on the road in a similar way but at least he managed some good, even classic, outings along the way. I'm not saying it's entirely Brozza's fault, but nothing ever gelled during his tenure - the films all have a TV mini-series feel to them and Brozza never really nailed the role. It's impossible to describe what he actually brought to Bond apart from usually fairly ropey acting and delivery. By contrast TLD and even LTK 'feel' like proper Bond movies. The first half of TLD is in my opinion one of the best sustained sequences in any Bond film. Dalton's appearance at the start is fantastic and overall the film stands up pretty well.

Is it true that Dalton wasn't popular with the critics? That's not how I recollect it at the time - I think TLD was pretty well received.

BAIN123

Brosnan brought his "boyish charm". Dead simple.

LTK doesn't always "feel" like a Bond movie. What about that "slo-mo" shot? Hardly "classic Bond" don't you think.

DaltonCraig007

LTK feels much more like a tv movie than Brosnan's films... The PTS in GE seems to cost more than the entire LTK budget. My only disappointment was that there wasn't enough outdoor shots in Brosnan's tenure... it seems all his films took place in close-confined areas... maybe that's why you think the Brosnan films feel like tv movies... apart from that you can see there was plenty of money spent on making his outings.

BAIN123

DaltonCraig007 wrote:

LTK feels much more like a tv movie than Brosnan's films... The PTS in GE seems to cost more than the entire LTK budget.

I'll agree with that.

MajorDSmythe

GE cost money? They actually wasted spent money on that film?

Getafix

BAIN123 wrote:

Brosnan brought his "boyish charm". Dead simple.

LTK doesn't really "feel" like a Bond movie. What about that "slo-mo" shot? Hardly "classic Bond" don't you think.

I guess the boyish charm is in the eyes of the beholder.

I'm not here to make a major defence of LTK. I have problems with it and it's never been a favourite, although watching it again later on it has grown on me. Overall, I see the problems with LTK as an early sign of how things were beginning to go wrong with the whole series. It certainly feels less like a proper Bond than TLD and by the time GE appeared it was as if EON had completely forgotten how to make Bond movies.

Any way, one thing I perhaps agree with is that Dalts would not have kept Bond going in the way that Brozza did. As a fan I would have loved to see Dalton return for another outing but I appreciate if you take the view of the US studio bosses, Brozza was the 'right' choice.

BAIN123

Yes they did - and they made one of the most re-watchable films of the series as a result.

As a Bond film I can safely say that GE is my most watched Bond film. In fact my hands go so far down they break through the damn floor.

Forgive me if I've committed an imortal sin but GE still stands as one of my favourites,.

MajorDSmythe

More than a touch overpraise, there. Not quite wathable... actually a good way from watchable.

BAIN123

MajorDSmythe wrote:

More than a touch overpraise, there. Not quite wathable... actually a good way from watchable.

The fact that I know 85% of the dialogue of the to[p of my head says otherwise.

Getafix

I find all the Brosnan films fairly unwatchable. As a film, TND is undoubtedly Brozza's best outing - short and well paced. There are some nicely shot scenes although it tanks towards the end.

Getafix

BAIN123 wrote:

MajorDSmythe wrote:

More than a touch overpraise, there. Not quite wathable... actually a good way from watchable.

The fact that I know 85% of the dialogue of the to[p of my head says otherwise.

Bain, there are people who know the dialogue from all kinds of movies. I happen to love KingPin, but I'm not gonna claim it's a classic because I can remember practically every scene.

MajorDSmythe

BAIN123 wrote:

MajorDSmythe wrote:

More than a touch overpraise, there. Not quite wathable... actually a good way from watchable.

The fact that I know 85% of the dialogue of the to[p of my head says otherwise.

As does the fact that I could count the number of times i've watch GE on both hands minus both thumbs and possibly one or two fingers and that I rememebr far less than 85% of the films dialogue.

Now TND is very re-watchable imo.

DaltonCraig007

GE and TND are classics, so I agree with BAIN on the first and Major on the 2nd. I too can recite most of the dialogues from GE off the top of my head. All Bond movies are watchable. Heck I have no problems watching QOS if i want a rollercoster ride... it's just when I analyze it that I can't stand the film as a 'Bond film'. But the film in itself, if you look beyond that it's a Bond film, is a good film. The least watchable film IMO is DN. It's just too damn slow, no Barry music, bad filmaking... Even CR has many good moments in it that can keeps my attention going throughout the 2+ hour running time. I love DAD, I know it's controversial when I say it's a masterpiece, but the film is just so entertaining I have no problems ranking it high in my all time favorite films... just like CR I can't stand as a Bond film, I admit it really is a wonderful piece of filmaking, with good perfomances from most the cast, stellar action scenes and camera movements. CR for me is the 2nd worst Bond film, but as a film it'd probably put it in the 25 best films of the 2000's. it's just when I analyze as a Bond outing, I see it doesn't fit my idea of what a 007 flick should be.

BAIN123

I'm not saying GE is the very best Bond film qualtiy wise but its definitely one I've had the most fun with over the years.

For me the characters make that film

TND was the first Bond film I saw in the cinema when I was 12 but I'd argue thats no where near as good (although there are some good scenes and Brosnan is more comfortable).

DaltonCraig007

BAIN123 wrote:

I'm not saying GE is the very best Bond film qualtiy wise but its definitely one I've had the most fun with over the years.

I would say quality wise GE is in the top 5 best Bond film. Entertainement wise it would also put in in my top 5.

Master_Dahark

TND was my first Bond movie in the theatre as well Bain!
How quickly time had changed for me. In 1995 GoldenEye came out and I didn't even notice (I was not aware of Bond at the time), then by 1997 I was such a fan that I had made an event of it-- I brought every friend I could to see it!

JBFan626

BAIN123 wrote:

It would have been interesting to see how Dalts would have handelled it. I'll give you that. Nonetheless i still feel that without Brosnan we wouldn't have had Isabella and (perhaps) Bean.

Dalton opposite Dench would have seemed weird too, don't ya think? But then again, maybe we would never have seen Dench in the role... :-?