The biggest missed opportunities in the Bond franchise

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  • Posts: 15,124
    bondjames wrote: »
    Ski chase in SPECTRE!!!
    Very true. I wonder if Craig's injury prevented this or if they never had it in mind. Regardless, it's very disappointing.

    I actually am glad there was none. Ski and snow is a bit too obvious and done to perfection in OHMSS.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Ski chase in SPECTRE!!!
    Very true. I wonder if Craig's injury prevented this or if they never had it in mind. Regardless, it's very disappointing.

    I could've swore I read somewhere on here that a ski chase was planned, but a mixture of Craig's injury/inability to ski had them scrap it and go with the plane chase instead.
    It's a pity, because they can't really go back to that kind of location again so soon. So we're probably unlikely to see a good ski sequence for some time.
  • edited June 2017 Posts: 19,339
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Ski chase in SPECTRE!!!
    Very true. I wonder if Craig's injury prevented this or if they never had it in mind. Regardless, it's very disappointing.

    I could've swore I read somewhere on here that a ski chase was planned, but a mixture of Craig's injury/inability to ski had them scrap it and go with the plane chase instead.

    Spot on @Creasy47 me olde matey,that's the reason.

  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    Realistically: David Arnold doing SF and SP.

    In my parallel universe: Brosnan still being Bond.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    bondjames wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Ski chase in SPECTRE!!!
    Very true. I wonder if Craig's injury prevented this or if they never had it in mind. Regardless, it's very disappointing.

    I could've swore I read somewhere on here that a ski chase was planned, but a mixture of Craig's injury/inability to ski had them scrap it and go with the plane chase instead.
    It's a pity, because they can't really go back to that kind of location again so soon. So we're probably unlikely to see a good ski sequence for some time.

    Let's just hope it doesn't take us a 20 year stretch to return to a snowy location/a skiing sequence. TWINE was the last ski sequence we've had, unfortunately.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2017 Posts: 23,883
    I feel like we could experience one of the biggest missed opportunities in the future. Namely, with a potentially long break after the SP debacle, this is a perfect opportunity to retool and dump some tired elements, including the writers. From what I've read (admittedly from third party sources), this isn't being done. Shame.
  • Posts: 12,526
    Right now I would say the Bond 25 delay!
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,304
    Two of the biggest missed opportunities are the follow-ups to OHMSS and CR. (DAF especially.)

    The open-ended fate of Blofeld in DAF is lousy. Either show Blofeld escaping or dying.

    A better final scene for Moore. And Dalton. And Brosnan.

    The SP lack of a ski sequence is a good one.
  • Posts: 2,918
    bondsum wrote: »
    The biggest missed opportunity has to be not making the original Casino Royale with Sean Connery as intended....The other reason why this is a missed opportunity is that Feldman had already commissioned Ben Hecht to write the script back in the early 60's. Hecht had written 1935's Scarface (considered the template for modern gangster films) and collaborated with Hitchcock on Spellbound and Notorious.

    Hecht was probably the greatest screenwriter of classic Hollywood--based on what I've read, his Casino Royale would have easily given the 2006 version a run for its money. Truly one of the greatest what-ifs in Bond history. Of course, if a well-done, serious film of CR had been made in '67, it might have dissuaded EON from adapting the book decades later.

    Moving on to EON, I agree with those who nominate filming YOLT after OHMSS. Apparently the producers wanted to take advantage of Bond's popularity in Japan, but this ultimately backfired, since Connery's Japanese experiences finalized his decision to quit. It might have been better to have beat Casino Royale to the box office instead with a production filmed closer to home. Since the producers wanted a space-oriented spectacle, they could have filmed Moonraker instead, with Drax working for Spectre instead of the Russians. A less aggravated Connery might then have been persuaded to appear in OHMSS. Under Hunt's direction, and given the opportunity to play a more human Bond, he might have given his best Bondian performance.
    Afterward, Hunt and Connery could have return for the latter's swansong in You Only Live Twice. Following Fleming more closely, the film would end with an amnesiac Bond heading into the unknown. The next film in the series would be The Man With the Golden Gun, a perfect way to introduce a new actor as Bond, since the character returns from the Soviet Union as a brainwashed blank slate (Moneypenny even says "it's not him!") and undergoes a reboot.

    Jumping ahead, I also agree with those who bemoan Dalton's not stepping into the role earlier. At the very latest, A View to a Kill should have been Dalton's first Bond. With a new, grittier actor in the role, the script would probably have been retailored and rewritten to produce a better movie too. I would have loved seeing Dalton do more Bonds after LTK, but the legal entanglements that prevented them were beyond EON's control and thus cannot be deemed lost opportunities.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    TLD was a good introduction for Dalton, but they could have released it in 85.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    After rereading Casino Royale again I completely agree how mind-blowing it'd be to have an early 60s Connery at his peak tackle an adaptation of the text...the only issue being that it never would've been able to be half of what it needed to be. They wouldn't be able to get away with the straw men explosion at all, nor the true torture scene, which is one of the most important things to get right in my mind. The very harsh nature of the book and a lot of the traumatic sequences really would've been to diluted I feel, and so I'm glad they didn't waste the book and saved it for a time where they could do much more content-wise to more effectively replicate the feeling of the novel.

    I would be lying, however, if I said I didn't picture Sean as Bond as I read the book this time, and saw Peter Lorre as Le Chiffre and a sort of Jane Russell type as Vesper throughout. Now that would be a sight to see.
  • Posts: 2,918
    After rereading Casino Royale again I completely agree how mind-blowing it'd be to have an early 60s Connery at his peak tackle an adaptation of the text...the only issue being that it never would've been able to be half of what it needed to be. They wouldn't be able to get away with the straw men explosion at all, nor the true torture scene, which is one of the most important things to get right in my mind.

    For what it's worth, Hecht's script does include the torture scene essentially as Fleming wrote it, except that the torturer is Le Chiffre's wife Gita. Her husband supervises her work. This was because Hecht decided having one man torture another's genitals was too "f-ggy." But the scene is every bit as brutal and just as creepy, because Gita is hideously disfigured, thanks to Bond having earlier used her as a human shield, and she is very happy to get her revenge.
    Hecht's script was definitely for adults--several earlier scenes are set in LeChiffre's brothels, and there's even mention of underage prostitutes. The big question is whether Charlier Feldman, had he chosen to make a serious version, would have had the balls to film Hecht's script. That's open for debate. The late 60s were the era when the Production Code died out, and movies embraced previously unimaginable levels of sex and violence. But Hollywood producers are not the most courageous folks in the world...

    Speaking of lost opportunities, take a look at the original treatment for Octopussy, as reported in the Taschen book:
    Blofeld returns as the primary antagonist, locked in a war with a group of bullion smugglers who carry out low level espionage work, and are led by Octopussy. Blofeld plans to remove M from control of MI6 and replace him with his mole Villiers, M's chief of staff, which would allow him to manipulate the West's secret services. M is assassinated, thus leading to Moneypenny's being fired and replaced, and Bond is framed as a double agent. On the run and eager to clear his name, Bond works with Octopussy and Kamal Khan, an old school friend of Bond's working with the Afghan resistance, to defeat Blofeld and his army chief, Smythe.

    That could have been a kick-ass debut for Dalton!
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Can't say I'd care to see that version of OP, to be honest. If it was still Moore as Bond, it would've had the issue of being tonally bankrupt.

    I'm not familiar with that treatment of CR, but I would've just liked to see the book faithfully adapted with no major alterations, and certainly not for giving Le Chiffre a woman on the side. I like just he and Bond being the focus of their actions against each other, with no extraneous stuff to water it down. I'd just want Vesper to be better written in the script, as they did with the 06 film. Everything else about the novel I think would be brilliant to see. I'd love to see a mini-series of it done in the period setting with all the bells and whistles. It's a very grounded and straight-forward story, and you could do it quite cheaply. The issue would just be getting the right casting, because if you don't find Fleming's Bond you might as well not even try.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    That version of Octopussy would make for a great Bond 25.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Murdock wrote: »
    That version of Octopussy would make for a great Bond 25.

    Are you joking? It sounds like fanwank written by a Mendes fundamentalist.

    Let's stop focussing everything on MI6 and have Bond actually do a mission for once.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    jV2T4c1JdG0g.gif?resize=250%2C168&quality=85&strip=all
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Murdock wrote: »
    jV2T4c1JdG0g.gif?resize=250%2C168&quality=85&strip=all

    Well I hope for your sake that you are because that plot sounds awful. It's basically the SP plot that got rejected. And when you see what we ended up with in SP that's quite a feat.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    Murdock wrote: »
    jV2T4c1JdG0g.gif?resize=250%2C168&quality=85&strip=all

    Well I hope for your sake that you are because that plot sounds awful. It's basically the SP plot that got rejected. And when you see what we ended up with in SP that's quite a feat.

    I liked Spectre except for Newman's garbage score.
  • Posts: 2,918
    Heh. I wouldn't advocate using the OP treatment for a future Bond film, since its plot elements are now old-hat, but the scenario would have been downright radical in the early 1980s, and would have provided a memorable introduction for a new Bond actor (and presumably a new M). Done right, it could have put fresh air into the franchise's lungs, and having Bond and Octopussy team up against Blofeld and Smythe might have proved more interesting than the Khan/Orlov combo. I'd love to know if Bond finally killed Blofeld in this treatment.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited July 2017 Posts: 6,304
    Revelator wrote: »
    bondsum wrote: »
    The biggest missed opportunity has to be not making the original Casino Royale with Sean Connery as intended....The other reason why this is a missed opportunity is that Feldman had already commissioned Ben Hecht to write the script back in the early 60's. Hecht had written 1935's Scarface (considered the template for modern gangster films) and collaborated with Hitchcock on Spellbound and Notorious.

    Hecht was probably the greatest screenwriter of classic Hollywood--based on what I've read, his Casino Royale would have easily given the 2006 version a run for its money. Truly one of the greatest what-ifs in Bond history. Of course, if a well-done, serious film of CR had been made in '67, it might have dissuaded EON from adapting the book decades later.

    Moving on to EON, I agree with those who nominate filming YOLT after OHMSS. Apparently the producers wanted to take advantage of Bond's popularity in Japan, but this ultimately backfired, since Connery's Japanese experiences finalized his decision to quit. It might have been better to have beat Casino Royale to the box office instead with a production filmed closer to home. Since the producers wanted a space-oriented spectacle, they could have filmed Moonraker instead, with Drax working for Spectre instead of the Russians. A less aggravated Connery might then have been persuaded to appear in OHMSS. Under Hunt's direction, and given the opportunity to play a more human Bond, he might have given his best Bondian performance.
    Afterward, Hunt and Connery could have return for the latter's swansong in You Only Live Twice. Following Fleming more closely, the film would end with an amnesiac Bond heading into the unknown. The next film in the series would be The Man With the Golden Gun, a perfect way to introduce a new actor as Bond, since the character returns from the Soviet Union as a brainwashed blank slate (Moneypenny even says "it's not him!") and undergoes a reboot.

    Jumping ahead, I also agree with those who bemoan Dalton's not stepping into the role earlier. At the very latest, A View to a Kill should have been Dalton's first Bond. With a new, grittier actor in the role, the script would probably have been retailored and rewritten to produce a better movie too. I would have loved seeing Dalton do more Bonds after LTK, but the legal entanglements that prevented them were beyond EON's control and thus cannot be deemed lost opportunities.

    I think Connery's annoyance at the Japanese fans was the effect, not the cause. He was really angry at how much the producers were making and he was not, and I can't see him sticking around for two films, or if he had, giving decent performances.
    Revelator wrote: »
    After rereading Casino Royale again I completely agree how mind-blowing it'd be to have an early 60s Connery at his peak tackle an adaptation of the text...the only issue being that it never would've been able to be half of what it needed to be. They wouldn't be able to get away with the straw men explosion at all, nor the true torture scene, which is one of the most important things to get right in my mind.

    For what it's worth, Hecht's script does include the torture scene essentially as Fleming wrote it, except that the torturer is Le Chiffre's wife Gita. Her husband supervises her work. This was because Hecht decided having one man torture another's genitals was too "f-ggy." But the scene is every bit as brutal and just as creepy, because Gita is hideously disfigured, thanks to Bond having earlier used her as a human shield, and she is very happy to get her revenge.
    Hecht's script was definitely for adults--several earlier scenes are set in LeChiffre's brothels, and there's even mention of underage prostitutes. The big question is whether Charlier Feldman, had he chosen to make a serious version, would have had the balls to film Hecht's script. That's open for debate. The late 60s were the era when the Production Code died out, and movies embraced previously unimaginable levels of sex and violence. But Hollywood producers are not the most courageous folks in the world...

    Speaking of lost opportunities, take a look at the original treatment for Octopussy, as reported in the Taschen book:
    Blofeld returns as the primary antagonist, locked in a war with a group of bullion smugglers who carry out low level espionage work, and are led by Octopussy. Blofeld plans to remove M from control of MI6 and replace him with his mole Villiers, M's chief of staff, which would allow him to manipulate the West's secret services. M is assassinated, thus leading to Moneypenny's being fired and replaced, and Bond is framed as a double agent. On the run and eager to clear his name, Bond works with Octopussy and Kamal Khan, an old school friend of Bond's working with the Afghan resistance, to defeat Blofeld and his army chief, Smythe.

    That could have been a kick-ass debut for Dalton!

    That treatment sounds fascinating. Interesting how, once again, Eon saves bits from previous scripts for the future (Villiers, Khan/Shah). I believe there was also a version where OP was the villain.

    I can't see Cubby agreeing to kill off M (he was always so tied to formula), but it's intriguing that this notion was floated decades before it happened.
  • PrinceKamalKhanPrinceKamalKhan Monsoon Palace, Udaipur
    edited July 2017 Posts: 3,262
    Revelator wrote: »
    Speaking of lost opportunities, take a look at the original treatment for Octopussy, as reported in the Taschen book:


    Blofeld returns as the primary antagonist, locked in a war with a group of bullion smugglers who carry out low level espionage work, and are led by Octopussy. Blofeld plans to remove M from control of MI6 and replace him with his mole Villiers, M's chief of staff, which would allow him to manipulate the West's secret services. M is assassinated, thus leading to Moneypenny's being fired and replaced, and Bond is framed as a double agent. On the run and eager to clear his name, Bond works with Octopussy and Kamal Khan, an old school friend of Bond's working with the Afghan resistance, to defeat Blofeld and his army chief, Smythe.

    That version of OP does sound intriguing, like a Craig-style Bond adventure 25 years ahead of its time. It would've been a very good adventure for Dalton's Bond. I can't picture Moore's Bond in such a scenario.

  • edited July 2017 Posts: 1,708

    #5 Sophia Loren as a Bond girl in at least one film

    She would have made an exceptional Dominetta 'Domino' Vitali in TB.

    Most likely Broccoli would've refused to pay her the asking fee (Cubby : "Why high paid actress when we can hire Bach for much less instead")
  • Posts: 787
    For me, a big one is killing off Mathis in QOS. He's such a great character in the books, and Giannini played him brilliantly. He could have carried on for years as a lively, bon-vivant exposition machine who drops into the films once in a while.

    Huge loss, and the emotional payoff of "this time it's personal" didn't resonate nearly enough to justify it.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    octofinger wrote: »
    For me, a big one is killing off Mathis in QOS. He's such a great character in the books, and Giannini played him brilliantly. He could have carried on for years as a lively, bon-vivant exposition machine who drops into the films once in a while.

    Huge loss, and the emotional payoff of "this time it's personal" didn't resonate nearly enough to justify it.
    I agree. I imagine they were trying to evoke Connery era Kerim but it would have been smarter to keep him around. Same goes for Fields (then we wouldn't have needed this new MP who doesn't cut it for me).
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    I'd be interested in seeing Mathis as a recurring character in another series of films after some time has passed, in place of Felix or in addition to him. It's too soon now, or even in the near future, but I could see it in another time.
  • Posts: 2,918
    echo wrote: »
    I think Connery's annoyance at the Japanese fans was the effect, not the cause. He was really angry at how much the producers were making and he was not, and I can't see him sticking around for two films, or if he had, giving decent performances.

    Fair point. But if the producers could have convinced him to stay on for a larger-than-usual salary (the way they convinced him to return), history might have been different.
    I can't see Cubby agreeing to kill off M (he was always so tied to formula), but it's intriguing that this notion was floated decades before it happened.

    In one sense, M had already died with Bernard Lee, which makes me wonder if the OP treatment was devised before Lee's death as a way to retire the actor (as Skyfall did with Dench). Killing off Robert Brown's M would have had much less impact.

  • edited July 2017 Posts: 2,918
    EDIT: Sorry, double post!
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Killing off Bernard Lee s M is the only one which would have had an impact.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
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  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
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    For what it's worth, I personally really enjoyed Under Siege 2. Casey Ryback was quite a character.
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