Controversial opinions about Bond films

Benny

Not sure how controversial these two are.
GoldenEye is hugely over rated by many fans. Whilst it has grown on me over the years, I can never quite shake the almost made for tv look it has at times. It's a mediocre entry in the series.
The Dr.Kaufman scene in TND is another over rated scene that is nowhere near as good as some fans seem to hold it such high regard. I find Kaufman to be a joke with zero menace and is a weak character. It's an altogether awkward scene that conveniently ditches the Paris character and swiftly moves us on to Vietnam.

Thunderfinger

Agree that GE is hugely overrated, @Benny. (I rank it at 20.)
Dr Kaufman is one of the few good things in TND, but I agree that the way the scene itself plays out is not much to write home about. Schiavelli deserved more screen time and a better script.

WillyGalore

I hate TND full stop so I'm not going to disagree with @Benny's point.

Thunderfinger

Oh, I hate it too. I rank it at 21. I just try to appease the Brosnan lovers with whatever I can give them from time to time, and that is not much.

Benny

Thunderfinger wrote:

Agree that GE is hugely overrated, @Benny. (I rank it at 20.)
Dr Kaufman is one of the few good things in TND, but I agree that the way the scene itself plays out is not much to write home about. Schiavelli deserved more screen time and a better script.

That's the problem I have with Kaufman. The character is not developed or given any chance to establish himself. Schiavelli is a great actor, and given some more screen time could've given the character some depth. As filmed, he's weak and buffoon like. Terrible scene. And given the backstory that Bond and Paris shared, it makes the whole scene that much worse for me. If Kaufman was given more time, then Paris death could've been that much more meaningful. Instead of a brief line later in the film.

WillyGalore

I hate the "noises" Brosnan makes whenever he's punched/hit, specifically the fight in the soundproof room in TND and the fight with Renard in TWINE.

BAIN123

WillyGalore wrote:

I hate the "noises" Brosnan makes whenever he's punched/hit, specifically the fight in the soundproof room in TND and the fight with Renard in TWI.E.

Yeah he does overdo the noises/grunts sometimes. Although funnily enough I noticed Moore's "oph" noises long before I noticed Brosnan's.

Thunderfinger

Benny wrote:

Thunderfinger wrote:

Agree that GE is hugely overrated, @Benny. (I rank it at 20.)
Dr Kaufman is one of the few good things in TND, but I agree that the way the scene itself plays out is not much to write home about. Schiavelli deserved more screen time and a better script.

That's the problem I have with Kaufman. The character is not developed or given any chance to establish himself. Schiavelli is a great actor, and given some more screen time could've given the character some depth. As filmed, he's weak and buffoon like. Terrible scene. And given the backstory that Bond and Paris shared, it makes the whole scene that much worse for me. If Kaufman was given more time, then Paris death could've been that much more meaningful. Instead of a brief line later in the film.

How true! This was a problem in GE as well. Gottfried John and Tcheky Kario were also excellent, but a bit wasted.

bigladiesman

To make it fast and without stopping to tell why (it's funnier this way):

- LTK is my fav film not in the series, but as a whole
- I'd rather choose NSNA over TB any time
- I find J.W. Pepper absolutely hilarious
- In my country's elections, I vote for a commie party while enjoying Ian Fleming's novels as a whole (I loathe QOS).

Samuel001

Benny wrote:

The Dr.Kaufman scene in TND is another over rated scene that is nowhere near as good as some fans seem to hold it such high regard. I find Kaufman to be a joke with zero menace and is a weak character. It's an altogether awkward scene that conveniently ditches the Paris character and swiftly moves us on to Vietnam.

I also agree @Benny. I personally think the scene where Bond kills Elektra is one of Brosnan's best and far better than the Dr. Kaufman scene.

Ludovico

Re the homosexuality in DAF, while I do think it is depicted negatively, the movie fails to make it threatening. Blofeld's cross dressing is ridiculous, and while Wint and Kitt are efficient killers, they are hardly Grant material. They don't kill very difficult preys. Bambi and Stumper were more comedic. Nobody is unsettling like Rosa Klebb was.

thelivingroyale

@Benny I never understood the praise the Kauffman scene gets either. It's a good moment in a bland film but I don't think it's brilliant. Bond killing Kauffman is cool but Kauffman himself isn't a great character and Bond is over Paris as soon as the scene ends. Also "my cell phone unlocks the car". That's always annoyed me. Nobody in Britain calls it a "cell phone", we call it a mobile.

Completely disagree on GE though. I actually posted about this a few pages back:

I think there are so many people hopping on the "GE is overrated" bandwagon that it actually doesn't get the appreciation it deserves. It's a classic imo. Reinvents Bond after the cold war, introduces a great new Bond actor, has one of the best Bond girls of the series, has one of the best villains of the series, has a great theme song, has the best title sequence of the series and it has a witty script full of great lines, iconic moments (probably the most iconic film bar GF), colourful characters (best side characters of the series), and cracking action scenes.

Plot holes and terrible score aside, there's so much to love in this film and I think it should be in everyone's top 10, at least.

Too many people say "GE's alright, Brosnan's best but that's not saying much", when in reality it's every bit as brilliant as it's biggest fans make out imo.

chrisisall

thelivingroyale wrote:

Also "my cell phone unlocks the car". That's always annoyed me. Nobody in Britain calls it a "cell phone", we call it a mobile.

They weren't IN Britain, and English was a second language for Kaufman who might not understand British colloquialisms so Bond rightly chose the most commonly understandable phrase for it. :P

WillyGalore

chrisisall wrote:

thelivingroyale wrote:

Also "my cell phone unlocks the car". That's always annoyed me. Nobody in Britain calls it a "cell phone", we call it a mobile.

They weren't IN Britain, and English was a second language for Kaufman who might not understand British colloquialisms so Bond rightly chose the most commonly understandable phrase for it. :P

Does Bond say "time for a station break" just in case the unconscious Germans can't understand British colloquialism?

Ludovico

Maybe Kaufman is overpraised because he is one of the best element in an otherwise bland movie.

Lancaster007

thelivingroyale wrote:

"my cell phone unlocks the car". That's always annoyed me. Nobody in Britain calls it a "cell phone", we call it a mobile.

"Lengthwise" in LALD - WTF, no Britisher says that, it's 'lengthways'! I can't believe the actors don't point this out during a script read through. Also 'in back' really gets my goat.

thelivingroyale

Ludovico wrote:

Maybe Kaufman is overpraised because he is one of the best element in an otherwise bland movie.

I think that's it really. It's the standout scene in TND but that's hardly an achievement. I like TND for what it is (a fun actionfest) but it is a bland film imo that could've been so much better. With a few changes I think it could be a top 10 Bond film.

LegateDamar

I really liked Kaufman--"I am an outstanding pistol marksman, yeah." Bond shooting him dead when he didn't have to showed that Brosnan had an edge and was a real assassin, similar to when Connery's Bond shot Prof. Dent in DN.

Perilagu_Khan

LegateDamar wrote:

Birdleson wrote:

Wint and Kidd were in the book and more clearly labeled as homosexuals.

It was mentioned in the book but it was really brought out in the film. That pair was quite grotesque--they were gross looking, had those stupid smiles, completed each other's sentences, one of them was always spraying himself with perfume and they were quite psychotic. Bond films have always been rooted in a conservative ideology, and I wonder if Wint and Kidd would have been portrayed as they were if it hadn't have been for the backlash against Stonewall/gay rights that had just gotten underway. They were supposed to make the audience feel uncomfortable and when Bond killed them, it was a symbolic victory for heterosexual hegemony.

Utter nonsense. If only it were so.

Perilagu_Khan

LegateDamar wrote:

chrisisall wrote:

Reading-too-much-into-this ALERT

I don't think so. Bond films, at their core, are ideologically conservative and meant to reassure a nervous public that the future is in good hands, thanks to 007.

With the exception of QoS, which had a Leftist bent, and SF, which indeed comes over as a bit conservative, the Bond films are apolitical.

Perilagu_Khan

LegateDamar wrote:

Birdleson wrote:

It was a factor, but on a smaller level than history has been making it out to be. Maybe you remember it better, but it went right by me. I was pretty young, though.

It was also before my time. My point was that even if Joe Average was unaware of Stonewall, Stonewall still helped usher in a new era for the LBGT movement. With Stonewall gay people started to fight back and demand equality. So even if people were unaware of Stonewall, people were aware of the societal changes that were occurring because of it. There was of course a conservative backlash, and DAF was part of it with its portrayal of the homosexual couple Wint and Kidd.

I also see the portrayal of Bambi and Thumper to be a conservative backlash against women's liberation. With Doctor Metz, the film shows a condemnation of the anti-war/peace movement. Metz is a pacifist, and shown to be extremely naive. Metz, seeking world peace, very nearly destroys the world. It takes Bond, an instrument of institution, to save it.

Christ. I can only guess that you're pursuing graduate studies in English.

Perilagu_Khan

chrisisall wrote:

LegateDamar wrote:

Bond is out of the institution, but still part of it. He's a rebel, but still part of the system.

The only way to do what's right effectively in fantasy IMO.
The only other recourse would be sheep-like acceptance or outright revolution. And both make for excellent drama in a socially relevant film, or stressful/violent life in reality, but no place for a proper James Bond movie.

Or sheep-like adherence to the revolution, which is a good description of the entertainment industry's stance in general.

Perilagu_Khan

LegateDamar wrote:

chrisisall wrote:

LegateDamar wrote:

Bond is out of the institution, but still part of it. He's a rebel, but still part of the system.

The only way to do what's right effectively in fantasy IMO.
The only other recourse would be sheep-like acceptance or outright revolution. And both make for excellent drama in a socially relevant film, or stressful/violent life in reality, but no place for a proper James Bond movie.

With Bond, audiences can have their cake and eat it too. Bond is a rebel, but still part of the institution. He ticks off M and the Minister of Defense (don't muck it up again 007!) yet he always saves the day in the end. Even if he goes off the rails (LTK and QOS) and is expelled or resigns, he is still working for the best interests of the West and in the end is welcomed back with open arms.

You assume rebellion is Leftist when it's not. It all depends upon who's in charge. Currently--and probably for a very long time to come--the establishment is Leftist. When I rebel against the exactions of the Left, I am hardly being a Leftist.

chrisisall

WillyGalore wrote:

Does Bond say "time for a station break" just in case the unconscious Germans can't understand British colloquialism?

Elliot was American, and he's sort of talking to him in his joke.

doubleoego

BAIN123 wrote:

Lazenby has more of a screen presence than Dalton.

You know, you're actually right and it's really shocking how I'm perceiving such a statement to be so true.

On another note, Tom Jones' Thunderball theme is by far the best Bond theme in the series.

Perilagu_Khan

doubleoego wrote:

BAIN123 wrote:

Lazenby has more of a screen presence than Dalton.

You know, you're actually right and it's really shocking how I'm perceiving such a statement to be so true.

On another note, Tom Jones' Thunderball theme is by far the best Bond theme in the series.

It's been my fav for quite some time.

LegateDamar

Perilagu_Khan wrote:

LegateDamar wrote:

Birdleson wrote:

It was a factor, but on a smaller level than history has been making it out to be. Maybe you remember it better, but it went right by me. I was pretty young, though.

It was also before my time. My point was that even if Joe Average was unaware of Stonewall, Stonewall still helped usher in a new era for the LBGT movement. With Stonewall gay people started to fight back and demand equality. So even if people were unaware of Stonewall, people were aware of the societal changes that were occurring because of it. There was of course a conservative backlash, and DAF was part of it with its portrayal of the homosexual couple Wint and Kidd.

I also see the portrayal of Bambi and Thumper to be a conservative backlash against women's liberation. With Doctor Metz, the film shows a condemnation of the anti-war/peace movement. Metz is a pacifist, and shown to be extremely naive. Metz, seeking world peace, very nearly destroys the world. It takes Bond, an instrument of institution, to save it.

Christ. I can only guess that you're pursuing graduate studies in English.

In graduate school I wrote my final research paper on imperialism and racial hierarchy in the James Bond films.

Perilagu_Khan

LegateDamar wrote:

Perilagu_Khan wrote:

LegateDamar wrote:

Birdleson wrote:

It was a factor, but on a smaller level than history has been making it out to be. Maybe you remember it better, but it went right by me. I was pretty young, though.

It was also before my time. My point was that even if Joe Average was unaware of Stonewall, Stonewall still helped usher in a new era for the LBGT movement. With Stonewall gay people started to fight back and demand equality. So even if people were unaware of Stonewall, people were aware of the societal changes that were occurring because of it. There was of course a conservative backlash, and DAF was part of it with its portrayal of the homosexual couple Wint and Kidd.

I also see the portrayal of Bambi and Thumper to be a conservative backlash against women's liberation. With Doctor Metz, the film shows a condemnation of the anti-war/peace movement. Metz is a pacifist, and shown to be extremely naive. Metz, seeking world peace, very nearly destroys the world. It takes Bond, an instrument of institution, to save it.

Christ. I can only guess that you're pursuing graduate studies in English.

In graduate school I wrote my final research paper on imperialism and racial hierarchy in the James Bond films.

Heh. Knew it.

doubleoego

Perilagu_Khan wrote:

doubleoego wrote:

BAIN123 wrote:

Lazenby has more of a screen presence than Dalton.

You know, you're actually right and it's really shocking how I'm perceiving such a statement to be so true.

On another note, Tom Jones' Thunderball theme is by far the best Bond theme in the series.

It's been my fav for quite some time.

It's just so suave, slick, classy. It's so....Bond

LegateDamar

Perilagu_Khan wrote:

LegateDamar wrote:

chrisisall wrote:

Reading-too-much-into-this ALERT

I don't think so. Bond films, at their core, are ideologically conservative and meant to reassure a nervous public that the future is in good hands, thanks to 007.

With the exception of QoS, which had a Leftist bent, and SF, which indeed comes over as a bit conservative, the Bond films are apolitical.

They are not apolitical in the least. Just a handful of examples off the top of my head:

DN- Government House in Jamaica run by subservient natives.
GF- The opening scene in which Bond stops a South American drug lord who "finances revolutions with heroin flavored bananas." Later, Bond stops a plot by the Chinese working with Goldfinger who want to cause "economic chaos in the West" by detonating a nuclear bomb at Fort Knox.
DAF- The diamond mine is run like a quasi-plantation, with the happy natives doing the grunt work for their benevolent British overlords.