Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,800
    jackdagger wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Oh here's another controversial opinion: Bibi is actually a good character and one of the strong points of FYEO.

    It's funny you mention that, the last time I watched FYEO I had a new admiration for Bibi I never had before. In the end, where the blonde whats-his-face is fighting Bond, Bibi immediately tries to help and hits him with her suitcase, possibly even saving Bond's life. Other Bond girls like Stacey and Vesper have been paralyzed during fight scenes and didn't try to help until the very end. Bibi doesn't hesitate at all, which is pretty admirable considering her age and everything.

    Yes, she totally rocked when push came to shove.
  • Posts: 15,124
    jackdagger wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Oh here's another controversial opinion: Bibi is actually a good character and one of the strong points of FYEO.

    It's funny you mention that, the last time I watched FYEO I had a new admiration for Bibi I never had before. In the end, where the blonde whats-his-face is fighting Bond, Bibi immediately tries to help and hits him with her suitcase, possibly even saving Bond's life. Other Bond girls like Stacey and Vesper have been paralyzed during fight scenes and didn't try to help until the very end. Bibi doesn't hesitate at all, which is pretty admirable considering her age and everything.

    What I love about her is that she reveals something about Bond and about Kristatos. Bond might have a strong libido, he is not depraved, he will not spoil a virgin, to use Chandler's expression about his own hero Philip Marlowe. Kristatos, on the other hand, seems to be interested only in that, possessing her sexually when the time is right. It makes him far more sinister than say Stromberg or Drax.
  • edited January 2016 Posts: 2,341
    Stromberg, Drax, Vargas,and even Blofeld from YOLT are asexual and would never get off on being with a woman. Now Blofeld in DAF acted more flaming homosexual than any villain save Kidd and Wint.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited January 2016 Posts: 6,304
    Ludovico wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I'll take Goodnight over any of the '80s or '90s Bond Girls (except Elektra King).

    Might I ask why?

    I find her to be funny, sexy, engaging and an asset to the film. I detest the later "equal to Bond" BS, that only worked with XXX. I don't care for "hard" women, and I don't like them jammed down my throat.

    We'll have to agree to disagree. I don't find her very funny. A girl can still be strong willed yet not labelled as an "equal to Bond" (Pussy Galore, XXX, Honey Ryder etc).

    The issue with Mary Goodnight resides with the comedic tone of the script. Had she remained a secretary working for MI6 instead of an agent, not the smartest one but not the complete klutz she was depicted as, and in a more serious Bond movie, she would have been far more accepted. And a far better character.

    Oh here's another controversial opinion: Bibi is actually a good character and one of the strong points of FYEO.

    Damn, you beat me to it. I like Bibi.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,800
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Stromberg does dress Major Amasova up in that bonermaking outfit though.
    I thought Ringo picked that...
    :-?
  • edited January 2016 Posts: 15,124
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Stromberg does dress Major Amasova up in that bonermaking outfit though.

    I thought it was kind of out of character. It came out of the blue. Maybe Stromberg was more impotent than asexual.

    On a similar note, I was never convinced with Blofeld's sudden attraction towards Tracy in OHMSS.
  • I'm not sure if this is controversial, but I think Waltz's incarnation of Blofeld is one of the weakest villains in the entire series, if not the outright weakest.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,800
    Blofeld in SP sucked.
    Silva in SF sucked.
    Greene in QOS sucked.
    Le Chiffre in CR sucked.
    Graves in DAD sucked.
    on and on and on...... 8-}
  • edited January 2016 Posts: 1,596
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Blofeld in SP sucked.
    Silva in SF sucked.
    Greene in QOS sucked.
    Le Chiffre in CR sucked.
    Graves in DAD sucked.
    on and on and on...... 8-}

    I'm not sure if this is directed at me, but I love Silva and Le Chiffre. That said, Oberhauser, Greene, and to a lesser extent, Graves, do indeed suck.

    Also, @Birdleson, I'm not sure if it's entirely Waltz's fault (the script is not kind to him at all) but he definitely shoulders some of the blame. It's like he doesn't know if he's supposed to ham it up or tone it down the performance ends up coming off as mousy. I can't find the right word but that's the one that came to mind.

    They basically wanted him to play Hans Landa from Inglourious Basterds but didn't have the power in the script for it to work, so Waltz's schtick (i.e. that surface softness and a smile betraying malice beneath etc etc etc) ended up coming off as ridiculous and completely lacking any intimidation factor whatsoever.

    As mentioned, the script doesn't do him any favors - the film sets Blofeld up to be this person who creates the world's largest criminal organization simply because daddy liked James better.
  • SarkSark Guangdong, PRC
    Posts: 1,138
    Bibi pretty clearly implies that she's not a virgin when she says "he [Kristatos] still thinks I'm a virgin."
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Ludovico wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    I have a soft spot for Britt Ekland ever since The Wicker Man.

    I've never been able to keep soft during that scene in The Wicker Man!

    Apparently that's not her.

    The shots from the rear are not her (you can tell by the differing hair length) but from the front it most certainly is.

    Trust me I've studied that scene in great depth since the age of 15!
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Blofeld in SP sucked.
    Silva in SF sucked.
    Greene in QOS sucked.
    Le Chiffre in CR sucked.
    Graves in DAD sucked.
    on and on and on...... 8-}

    I'm not sure if this is directed at me, but I love Silva and Le Chiffre. That said, Oberhauser, Greene, and to a lesser extent, Graves, do indeed suck.

    Also, @Birdleson, I'm not sure if it's entirely Waltz's fault (the script is not kind to him at all) but he definitely shoulders some of the blame. It's like he doesn't know if he's supposed to ham it up or tone it down the performance ends up coming off as mousy. I can't find the right word but that's the one that came to mind.

    They basically wanted him to play Hans Landa from Inglourious Basterds but didn't have the power in the script for it to work, so Waltz's schtick (i.e. that surface softness and a smile betraying malice beneath etc etc etc) ended up coming off as ridiculous and completely lacking any intimidation factor whatsoever.

    As mentioned, the script doesn't do him any favors - the film sets Blofeld up to be this person who creates the world's largest criminal organization simply because daddy liked James better.

    No, it doesn't.
  • Posts: 15,124
    Ludovico wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    I have a soft spot for Britt Ekland ever since The Wicker Man.

    I've never been able to keep soft during that scene in The Wicker Man!

    Apparently that's not her.

    The shots from the rear are not her (you can tell by the differing hair length) but from the front it most certainly is.

    Trust me I've studied that scene in great depth since the age of 15!

    I'll need to study it myself. You know, to be sure.
  • Posts: 15,124
    Birdleson wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Blofeld in SP sucked.
    Silva in SF sucked.
    Greene in QOS sucked.
    Le Chiffre in CR sucked.
    Graves in DAD sucked.
    on and on and on...... 8-}

    I'm not sure if this is directed at me, but I love Silva and Le Chiffre. That said, Oberhauser, Greene, and to a lesser extent, Graves, do indeed suck.

    Also, @Birdleson, I'm not sure if it's entirely Waltz's fault (the script is not kind to him at all) but he definitely shoulders some of the blame. It's like he doesn't know if he's supposed to ham it up or tone it down the performance ends up coming off as mousy. I can't find the right word but that's the one that came to mind.

    They basically wanted him to play Hans Landa from Inglourious Basterds but didn't have the power in the script for it to work, so Waltz's schtick (i.e. that surface softness and a smile betraying malice beneath etc etc etc) ended up coming off as ridiculous and completely lacking any intimidation factor whatsoever.

    As mentioned, the script doesn't do him any favors - the film sets Blofeld up to be this person who creates the world's largest criminal organization simply because daddy liked James better.

    No, it doesn't.

    @RC7 , Ive heard this before, but it's right there in the script and on the screen, coming out of Blofeld's mouth; It was Bond taking his place in his father's heart that set him on his dark path. I guess you could say he was lying or deluding himself, but then you the viewer are making that personal assumption. The facts support what @ThighsOfXenia wrote. Denying it seems a stretch, what are you basing it on?

    I'll need to watch the movie again, but this is what made Blofeld hate James Bond, not what made him the Napoleon of crime (to borrow a description of Moriarty). In Gladiator, Commodus is evil, ambitious regardless of his rivalry with Maximus. What makes Commodus kill his father is his jealousy, but he would have become a tyrannical emperor regardless.

    And I am not the biggest admirer of John Logan mind you and I see his use of Oedipal themes coming a mile away, but his villains are not the mere result of envy.
  • Posts: 15,124
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Again, just saying that doesn't make it true. He states in the film that it is what set him on his path of villainy (that's paraphrasing, but it's pretty damned clear).

    Like I said, I would need to watch the movie again. Reading the quote from IMDB Blofeld says "in a way he's responsible for the path I took." In a way is not so clear, even for the person saying it. It's kind of, sort of, more or less, possible, it is soft, it is vague and uncertain.
  • The way I see it, Bloberhauser must've always been a psychopath, and his father was his first kill, his treatment of Bond being the justification. I think Blofeld would've taken the same criminal path regardless of Bond or not.
    In a way though this is worse, because Blofeld shouldn't be a psychopath, IMO, he should be more of an intelligent mastermind.
  • Posts: 15,124
    jackdagger wrote: »
    The way I see it, Bloberhauser must've always been a psychopath, and his father was his first kill, his treatment of Bond being the justification. I think Blofeld would've taken the same criminal path regardless of Bond or not.
    In a way though this is worse, because Blofeld shouldn't be a psychopath, IMO, he should be more of an intelligent mastermind.

    The two are not mutually exclusive. And the original Blofeld was very much both although more of a complete psychopath later in his life.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited January 2016 Posts: 23,883
    The premise is still a ridiculous contrivance that was not necessary and adds nothing to the story whatsoever apart from confusing the audience and hurting the credibility of the film.

    A needless redundance as it is not novel canon.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,800
    The whole thing is like a spoiler on a Volkswagon Golf; totally unnecessary, but I suppose it adds something for someone... :-??
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    bondjames wrote: »
    The premise is still a ridiculous contrivance that was not necessary and adds nothing to the story whatsoever apart from confusing the audience and hurting the credibility of the film.

    A needless redundance as it is not novel canon.

    It's hard to disagree with that - a "personal Bond" bridge too far from me. Let's just hope that they don't develop it much further in the next Bond film or films.
  • Posts: 15,124
    bondjames wrote: »
    The premise is still a ridiculous contrivance that was not necessary and adds nothing to the story whatsoever apart from confusing the audience and hurting the credibility of the film.

    A needless redundance as it is not novel canon.

    I don't think it was necessary either but I'm o.k. with its execution, if that makes sense. Like I was against the scar and the return of the cat but was very happily surprised on how they turned out.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited January 2016 Posts: 18,281
    Ludovico wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    The premise is still a ridiculous contrivance that was not necessary and adds nothing to the story whatsoever apart from confusing the audience and hurting the credibility of the film.

    A needless redundance as it is not novel canon.

    I don't think it was necessary either but I'm o.k. with its execution, if that makes sense. Like I was against the scar and the return of the cat but was very happily surprised on how they turned out.

    Yes, it was indeed interesting to get a fresh take on these iconic things.
  • Posts: 15,124
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    The premise is still a ridiculous contrivance that was not necessary and adds nothing to the story whatsoever apart from confusing the audience and hurting the credibility of the film.

    A needless redundance as it is not novel canon.

    I don't think it was necessary either but I'm o.k. with its execution, if that makes sense. Like I was against the scar and the return of the cat but was very happily surprised on how they turned out.

    Yes, it was indeed interesting to get a fresh take on these iconic things.

    It is always a challenge for a Fleming villain: they have to stand out, but it's nearly impossible to go with a faithful adaptation from the book. So they use short cuts: scars, eyepatches, etc. In Sp they got the cat out of the way quickly, as a way to say: "yes, if you haven't guessed already, it's him." And then they didn't overuse the cat the way they had done in DAF and to a lesser extend YOLT. The scar I guess was considered iconic to the cinematic Blofeld, but it is a far nastier scar than Pleasence had (or Myers for that matter) and Walt truly wears it if that makes sense.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited January 2016 Posts: 17,800
    I've said this before, but after Craig I'd like to see a short series of Bond movies set in the mid 50's- early 60's so they could do literary justice to some of the stories (like MR for example).
    ..... Maybe even just a period piece MR.... :-?
  • Posts: 15,124
    chrisisall wrote: »
    I've said this before, but after Craig I'd like to see a short series of Bond movies set in the mid 50's- early 60's so they could do literary justice to some of the stories (like MR for example).

    It would be nice but it's not going to happen.

    Talking of MR, I was surprised to really enjoy Toby Stephens in And Then There Were None. His Gustav Graves was freely inspired by Hugo Drax (the emphasis is on freely) and it struck me that he now has the right age and about the right frame to play him. He is a few stones heavier than in DAD, he is a redhead... With the right makeup he'd be perfect for the vulgar, brutish Drax. And I cannot believe I just wrote this, because I hated him in DAD.
  • RC7RC7
    edited January 2016 Posts: 10,512
    Birdleson wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Blofeld in SP sucked.
    Silva in SF sucked.
    Greene in QOS sucked.
    Le Chiffre in CR sucked.
    Graves in DAD sucked.
    on and on and on...... 8-}

    I'm not sure if this is directed at me, but I love Silva and Le Chiffre. That said, Oberhauser, Greene, and to a lesser extent, Graves, do indeed suck.

    Also, @Birdleson, I'm not sure if it's entirely Waltz's fault (the script is not kind to him at all) but he definitely shoulders some of the blame. It's like he doesn't know if he's supposed to ham it up or tone it down the performance ends up coming off as mousy. I can't find the right word but that's the one that came to mind.

    They basically wanted him to play Hans Landa from Inglourious Basterds but didn't have the power in the script for it to work, so Waltz's schtick (i.e. that surface softness and a smile betraying malice beneath etc etc etc) ended up coming off as ridiculous and completely lacking any intimidation factor whatsoever.

    As mentioned, the script doesn't do him any favors - the film sets Blofeld up to be this person who creates the world's largest criminal organization simply because daddy liked James better.

    No, it doesn't.

    @RC7 , Ive heard this before, but it's right there in the script and on the screen, coming out of Blofeld's mouth; It was Bond taking his place in his father's heart that set him on his dark path. I guess you could say he was lying or deluding himself, but then you the viewer are making that personal assumption. The facts support what @ThighsOfXenia wrote. Denying it seems a stretch, what are you basing it on?

    Bond makes Blofeld/Oberhauser realise, 'his father had to die'. He then suggests that this 'perhaps' contributed to the path he took. I think the phrase he uses is 'you could say', to me this appeared to be Blofeld being petty. In reality, Blofeld did not create the organisation, 'Spectre' simply because of Bond. He was already a psychopath. There's more nuance to it than simply saying, Blofeld created SP because of Bond. But if people want to be literal to justify their hatred, nothing I can say will change that.
  • Posts: 15,124
    "In a way" is not very assertive. It's vague at best.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    Ludovico wrote: »
    "In a way" is not very assertive. It's vague at best.

    Precisely.
  • Posts: 15,124
    Birdleson wrote: »
    But it's there. I don't think taking it for what he said is too extreme, and I don't know where that "justify their hatred" part comes in.

    It is there, yes. Blofeld makes this link, in a way. And that's what it is: it is a soft, vague, decaf claim by Blofeld. Not a claim actually, simply a throwaway line.
  • RC7RC7
    edited January 2016 Posts: 10,512
    Birdleson wrote: »
    But it's there. I don't think taking it for what he said is too extreme, and I don't know where that "justify their hatred" part comes in.

    Ok, strongly worded perhaps. My opinion is that people are being unnecessarily harsh and ignoring the shades of grey to satisfy their own rhetoric. I can understand people not liking this film, but I keep reading comments that seem reactionary, rather than considered.
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