Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    bondjames wrote: »
    It's telling that there were no scenes from SP in the clips above from Craig showcasing his acting bona fides as Bond.

    Plenty of moments in both SF and SP.
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    Posts: 1,243
    bondjames wrote: »
    It's telling that there were no scenes from SP in the clips above from Craig showcasing his acting bona fides as Bond. It's well known that his CR & QoS work was outstanding, and is what endeared him to a new generation of fans. I don't think anyone can deny that.

    Having said that, emotional though Dalton was at times, I actually prefer his work in both his films to Craig's in SP.

    My point is I think the director does indeed matter very much. As an example, I love Connery with Young & Gilbert. I don't particularly like Connery with Hamilton (I think he is better suited to Moore, although GF is lauded around here).

    I never had a problem with Dalton's screen charisma personally. I think he owns every scene he is in. It's the performance I sometimes take issue with. The only Bond actor who I feel didn't fully own the screen all the time he was present was Brosnan.

    Now that is debate. And written from a reasonable perspective @bondjames

    CR and QOS were a new way of doing things. Yet, they had the luxury of drawing on a legacy. That is undeniable.

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    RC7 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    It's telling that there were no scenes from SP in the clips above from Craig showcasing his acting bona fides as Bond.

    Plenty of moments in both SF and SP.
    In SF, I agree, although Craig was notably less present to me. I can't recall anything in SP that rivals the clips above from CR/QoS. That's just my view, and it could be on account of the writing, the directing, or both.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,999
    Thread cleaned, we're supposed to be grown ups, so let's not resort to point scoring or snide replies.
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    Posts: 1,243
    Thread cleaned, we're supposed to be grown ups, so let's not resort to point scoring or snide replies.

    I agree. No idea where it came from.

  • LordBrettSinclairLordBrettSinclair Greensleeves
    Posts: 167
    Time for a new controversy then.

    Connery has more Bond in his little finger than Craig and Brosnan combined would ever have.
    EoN seriously needs to do better with Bond No 007
  • Posts: 4,325
    Daniel Craig is the best Bond.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited January 2017 Posts: 23,883
    Time for a new controversy then.

    Connery has more Bond in his little finger than Craig and Brosnan combined would ever have.
    EoN seriously needs to do better with Bond No 007
    I'm inclined to agree. Connery was definitive. The total package. Every actor since has only been able to duplicate elements of his formidable & effortless interpretation, and fans have picked favourites depending on their leanings and tastes.

    Perhaps they can never find someone like him again, who combines the macho (almost Clark Gable/John Wayne) frontier American attributes with stuffy British elegance so completely?

    He's almost like an American Brit. The closest I can think of was Cary Grant, although he leaned more towards the British side with his suaveness (despite being a naturalized American!)
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,198
    bondjames wrote: »
    Time for a new controversy then.

    Connery has more Bond in his little finger than Craig and Brosnan combined would ever have.
    EoN seriously needs to do better with Bond No 007
    I'm inclined to agree. Connery was definitive. The total package. Every actor since has only been able to duplicate elements of his formidable & effortless interpretation, and fans have picked favourites depending on their leanings and tastes.

    Perhaps they can never find someone like him again, who combines the macho (almost Clark Gable/John Wayne) frontier American attributes with stuffy British elegance so completely?

    He's almost like an American Brit. The closest I can think of was Cary Grant, although he leaned more towards the British side with his suaveness (despite being a naturalized American!)

    I think so, too. He is just perfect...
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    Posts: 1,243
    Time for a new controversy then.

    Connery has more Bond in his little finger than Craig and Brosnan combined would ever have.
    EoN seriously needs to do better with Bond No 007

    I have to agree in the utmost sincerity, though I like Brosnan a lot in GE and he was fine in TND.

    What irks me about the Craig era, is that he is the Bond that explains why the Connery Bond became who he is. It annoys me and insults my intelligence. It is like using a donkey to explain how a horse became a supreme racer.



  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    edited January 2017 Posts: 1,243
    bondjames wrote: »
    Time for a new controversy then.

    Connery has more Bond in his little finger than Craig and Brosnan combined would ever have.
    EoN seriously needs to do better with Bond No 007
    I'm inclined to agree. Connery was definitive. The total package. Every actor since has only been able to duplicate elements of his formidable & effortless interpretation, and fans have picked favourites depending on their leanings and tastes.

    Perhaps they can never find someone like him again, who combines the macho (almost Clark Gable/John Wayne) frontier American attributes with stuffy British elegance so completely?

    He's almost like an American Brit. The closest I can think of was Cary Grant, although he leaned more towards the British side with his suaveness (despite being a naturalized American!)

    No question that Connery still reigns supreme. And he has escalated in my appreciation after SF and SP.

    Once you read Cubby's autobiography, it is made clear that Dalton did not want to emulate or imitate Connery. He wanted to be the Bond of the books. He was a huge Connery fan, who instinctively knew that copying is no point of doing the role.

    So, I give kudos to Dalton, who wisely said that Connery could not be beaten. Only a fool would try. And Dalton was maligned unjustly for not copying the blueprint, but time is a great healer. Smart aficionados of Bond know this!

    And in fairness to Moore, he carved out his niche. You could not accuse Moore of being a clone. He never wore a tuxedo until his third film, especially not to draw comparisons. No vodka Martini either.

  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,584
    Time for a new controversy then.

    Connery has more Bond in his little finger than Craig and Brosnan combined would ever have.
    EoN seriously needs to do better with Bond No 007

    A billion dollars at the box office says otherwise.
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    Posts: 1,243
    NicNac wrote: »
    Time for a new controversy then.

    Connery has more Bond in his little finger than Craig and Brosnan combined would ever have.
    EoN seriously needs to do better with Bond No 007

    A billion dollars at the box office says otherwise.

    That was a one off. Of course the Craig era is super successful. No doubt about it. SF was hyped as the greatest Bond film. And before SP came out, ticket prices were increased in anticipation and to cash in on the new Star Wars film. SP took a more than $200 million dive. And had ticket prices not been increased, the dive would have been more.

    As Sanchez said in LTK : "Money isn't everything!"

  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,584
    Oh I get it now. A sort of conspiracy theory thing. Craig's dead in the water, SF was over hyped so it took a billion because people took that long to realise it was rubbish, Spectre benefited from a ticket price hike so it only really took $700,000,000, but Eon hasn't realised any of this yet.
    ;)

    TBH I guess we can argue black is white if we want, but overall Craig has had a successful time as Bond and Eon will see no reason to change it yet.
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    edited January 2017 Posts: 1,243
    NicNac wrote: »
    Oh I get it now. A sort of conspiracy theory thing. Craig's dead in the water, SF was over hyped so it took a billion because people took that long to realise it was rubbish, Spectre benefited from a ticket price hike so it only really took $700,000,000, but Eon hasn't realised any of this yet.
    ;)

    TBH I guess we can argue black is white if we want, but overall Craig has had a successful time as Bond and Eon will see no reason to change it yet.

    Believe me no conspiracy! SF was promoted the most up until that point, out of any Bond I recall. I was literally forced to go to the cinema by my brother-in-law to see it, who was no Bond fan. I remember that at my local cinema, the audience had much older people than normal. Also it being a Mendes film gave the film an audience that otherwise was not hot on Bond.

    And SP in terms of takings versus budget is not spectacular. Close to $900 million, but production cost and marketing were sky high.

    Industry insiders were expecting SP to out-gross SF by a lot. The marketing campaign was relentless. SF sent the message that Bond should be a $Billion plus grosser henceforth, and that spells danger for the franchise.

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited January 2017 Posts: 23,883
    acoppola wrote: »
    Believe me no conspiracy! SF was promoted the most up until that point, out of any Bond I recall. I was literally forced to go to the cinema by my brother-in-law to see it, who was no Bond fan. I remember that at my local cinema, the audience had much older people than normal. Also it being a Mendes film gave the film an audience that otherwise was not hot on Bond.
    It's true that SF benefited from the Jubilee and all the associated 50th anniversary promotional activities, as well as the Olympics. The marketing was indeed off the charts, and Adele's killer song certainly helped as well. Having said that, SF had tremendous 'legs' at the box office. You're correct that the audience skewed older, but a lot of that was due to word of mouth. I myself was so impressed by it that I carted my mother and father off to see it, and they've not watched a Bond film in the theatre since Moore retired. I know many friends who did the same, and who also went back to see it many times. So it did carry itself and build up an audience on its own, despite the strong initial marketing push. That's a testament to how it caught on with the general public imho.
    acoppola wrote: »
    And SP in terms of takings versus budget is not spectacular. Close to $900 million, but production cost and marketing were sky high.

    Industry insiders were expecting SP to out-gross SF by a lot. The marketing campaign was relentless. SF sent the message that Bond should be a $Billion plus grosser henceforth, and that spells danger for the franchise.
    Sadly, the same that was said about SF cannot be said about SP. It was very front loaded and the audience drop off was much more marked in comparison to the earlier film. In fact, I think it was more marked than QoS, which also similarly dropped off in comparison to CR, which had legs. Yes, you're correct that initial expectations were for a $1bn grosser. We even had some on this forum who were calling for it, and I also thought it could be achieved (until I saw the film, that is).
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Don t forget Javier Bardem. Him playing the villain was a big deal for many.
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    edited January 2017 Posts: 1,243
    bondjames wrote: »
    acoppola wrote: »
    Believe me no conspiracy! SF was promoted the most up until that point, out of any Bond I recall. I was literally forced to go to the cinema by my brother-in-law to see it, who was no Bond fan. I remember that at my local cinema, the audience had much older people than normal. Also it being a Mendes film gave the film an audience that otherwise was not hot on Bond.
    It's true that SF benefited from the Jubilee and all the associated 50th anniversary promotional activities, as well as the Olympics. The marketing was indeed off the charts, and Adele's killer song certainly helped as well. Having said that, SF had tremendous 'legs' at the box office. You're correct that the audience skewed older, but a lot of that was due to word of mouth. I myself was so impressed by it that I carted my mother and father off to see it, and they've not watched a Bond film in the theatre since Moore retired. I know many friends who did the same, and who also went back to see it many times. So it did carry itself and build up an audience on its own, despite the strong initial marketing push. That's a testament to how it caught on with the general public imho.
    acoppola wrote: »
    And SP in terms of takings versus budget is not spectacular. Close to $900 million, but production cost and marketing were sky high.

    Industry insiders were expecting SP to out-gross SF by a lot. The marketing campaign was relentless. SF sent the message that Bond should be a $Billion plus grosser henceforth, and that spells danger for the franchise.
    Sadly, the same that was said about SF cannot be said about SP. It was very front loaded and the audience drop off was much more marked in comparison to the earlier film. In fact, I think it was more marked than QoS, which also similarly dropped off in comparison to CR, which had legs. Yes, you're correct that initial expectations were for a $1bn grosser. We even had some on this forum who were calling for it, and I also thought it could be achieved (until I saw the film, that is).

    Nicely written and contributed. The first time I saw SF, I loved it! But it deflated with the passage of time. The litmus test of any Bond film is rewatchability. Even TWINE took 40 viewings before it got old. And I have not achieved three viewings with SF. Strange and unsual by my standards. By the third viewing, it was like a woman you thought was beautiful, but you see the flaws. I find SF just too heavy and intellectual. And F'ing bleak.

    In comparison, LTK is a black comedy. I used to think it was bleak too, but SF caused a reappraisal. And Craig's image change in parts made me think I was looking at an older Rupert Grint of Harry Potter fame, with elements of Simon Pegg. It was a bridge too far and the initiation of my hostility to the Craig era. The promise was immense.

    LALD I watched 40 times before giving it a temporary rest as an example.



  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited January 2017 Posts: 23,883
    Don t forget Javier Bardem. Him playing the villain was a big deal for many.
    That's true. I remember his performance drawing rave reviews and favourable comparisons to Bond villains of yore. The same wasn't the case for Waltz, although initial expectations were high.

    Having said that, the strong US $ hurt SP's foreign box office converted back to US $ (which is how the overall gross is measured). It would have fared better if the $ was at the same level in comparison to other currencies as it was in 2012.

    EDIT: @acoppola, I've heard many comment on SF not being rewatchable. I've never found that myself (I really look forward to seeing it every time). I don't really find it intellectual. Perhaps patriotic and a bit pretentious (in that Mendes way) but not excessively so. I think Bardem's OTT Silva alleviates some of the bleakness and makes it more light hearted. I agree with you on LALD though. That's definitely a casual film with high rewatch value, as are all of the Hamilton entries (for me at least).
  • RC7RC7
    edited January 2017 Posts: 10,512
    I'd seen SF 4 times by the end of opening day and I wasn't bored by it once. I had issues with it, some minor, some major, but that's with a critical head on. Putting that to one side it's got far too much going for it for me to be bored by it.

    It's funny that LALD has been mentioned as I get the impression SF will be seen in much the same vein as that picture in years to come. They're both very distinctive pieces in the Bond canon and seem to have really captured the imagination of the wider audience.
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    Posts: 1,243
    bondjames wrote: »
    Don t forget Javier Bardem. Him playing the villain was a big deal for many.
    That's true. I remember his performance drawing rave reviews and favourable comparisons to Bond villains of yore. The same wasn't the case for Waltz, although initial expectations were high.

    Having said that, the strong US $ hurt SP's foreign box office converted back to US $ (which is how the overall gross is measured). It would have fared better if the $ was at the same level in comparison to other currencies as it was in 2012.

    EDIT: @acoppola, I've heard many comment on SF not being rewatchable. I've never found that myself (I really look forward to seeing it every time). I don't really find it intellectual. Perhaps patriotic and a bit pretentious (in that Mendes way) but not excessively so. I think Bardem's OTT Silva alleviates some of the bleakness and makes it more light hearted. I agree with you on LALD though. That's definitely a casual film with high rewatch value, as are all of the Hamilton entries (for me at least).

    And I can appreciate and respect that you enjoy SF. I will share my perceptions, but what I will not do, is try to force-persuade you to think like me, if that makes sense?

    That is when a discussion becomes annoying. For example, if I told you that you have to like Dalton more than Moore, then that will make you annoyed. Or hey, let's compare LTK to LALD, despite both films having a different concept and period setting. Although they share something in common.

    The point of a forum is to share and perhaps learn to look at things in a new light.

  • edited January 2017 Posts: 4,617
    History has shown that you can hype a movie until the cows come home (and the 50th Birthday and the Olympics was great hype) but if the punters dont like the movie (same with the critical response), the hype wont save it. Once you have paid your cash and are sitting watching the PTS, the hype is meaningless, it's all about the product.

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    acoppola wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Don t forget Javier Bardem. Him playing the villain was a big deal for many.
    That's true. I remember his performance drawing rave reviews and favourable comparisons to Bond villains of yore. The same wasn't the case for Waltz, although initial expectations were high.

    Having said that, the strong US $ hurt SP's foreign box office converted back to US $ (which is how the overall gross is measured). It would have fared better if the $ was at the same level in comparison to other currencies as it was in 2012.

    EDIT: @acoppola, I've heard many comment on SF not being rewatchable. I've never found that myself (I really look forward to seeing it every time). I don't really find it intellectual. Perhaps patriotic and a bit pretentious (in that Mendes way) but not excessively so. I think Bardem's OTT Silva alleviates some of the bleakness and makes it more light hearted. I agree with you on LALD though. That's definitely a casual film with high rewatch value, as are all of the Hamilton entries (for me at least).

    And I can appreciate and respect that you enjoy SF. I will share my perceptions, but what I will not do, is try to force-persuade you to think like me, if that makes sense?

    That is when a discussion becomes annoying. For example, if I told you that you have to like Dalton more than Moore, then that will make you annoyed. Or hey, let's compare LTK to LALD, despite both films having a different concept and period setting. Although they share something in common.

    The point of a forum is to share and perhaps learn to look at things in a new light.
    Yes. I agree with you on that. We all have our views and our favourites and we should respect that. At the end of the day it's all 'opinions' after all, and as they famously say, opinions are like a""""les. everyone has one.

    Having said that, I do enjoy a little heated back and forth and playful teasing now and then also, otherwise this place would get boring very quickly.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    I never heard about a single person who went to see SF because it came out 50 years after Dr No, or because they had seen Craig during the Olympics.

    This silly argument gets repeated ad nauseam.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    patb wrote: »
    History has shown that you can hype a movie until the cows come home (and the 50th Birthday and the Olympics was great hype) but if the punters dont like the movie (same with the critical response), the hype wont save it. Once you have paid your cash and are sitting watching the PTS, the hype is meaningless, it's all about the product.

    I agree. Lots of people have tried to deny SF its success to satisfy their own ends. It's not my favourite Bond, nor is it even my favourite Craig, but I hate revisionism.
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    edited January 2017 Posts: 1,243
    I never heard about a single person who went to see SF because it came out 50 years after Dr No, or because they had seen Craig during the Olympics.

    This silly argument gets repeated ad nauseam.

    Essentially you are saying publicity, and in the case of SF the free publicity with the Queen for The Olympics, which was broadcast worldwide, as the Olympics were held in the United Kingdom, had no bearing? It was obviously a phenomenal opportunity to promote Bond as a British brand.

    It would be like saying that having the World Cup in the UK would not boost the country's economy.

    Even the Prime Minister at the time, David Cameron, said at the time that "Bond is Britain!".

    If that was the case, then film studios would not sometimes spend $100 million on marketing and advertising.

    The Olympics short film with Bond and The Queen put the film in the public's consciousness way ahead of time. And then the added bonus of critics having an orgasm over Bond was the icing on the cake.

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited January 2017 Posts: 23,883
    Speaking of box office, I think EON would be well advised to move its release of B25 forward a little in comparison to what it does traditionally (at least since GE).

    The SW behemoth is in full effect during the holiday season for the foreseeable future, and sucks up all the oxygen come holiday time.

    Bond took a hit in 1997 on account of Titanic, did so again in 2015 due to SW7-TFA and is likely to do so in the future, particularly if up against the original continuation story rather than one of the spin offs. Disney takes all the higher priced IMAX theatres for an extended period as well.
  • edited January 2017 Posts: 4,617
    Following that logic, if SP had been released at that time instead of SF, it would have taken the same at the box office? Not giving the content of the film any credit seems strange to me and it's also patronising to the audience IMHO.
    The marketing budget is to get as many people to see it once during it's early release (as with Superman v Batman) but IMHO, after that, once the reviews and word of mouth take over, its all about the movie itself and, the figures prove that SF had great legs.
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    edited January 2017 Posts: 1,243
    bondjames wrote: »
    Speaking of box office, I think EON would be well advised to move its release of B25 forward a little in comparison to what it does traditionally (at least since GE).

    The SW behemoth is in full effect during the holiday season for the foreseeable future, and sucks up all the oxygen come holiday time.

    Bond took a hit in 1997 on account of Titanic, did so again in 2015 due to SW7-TFA and is likely to do so in the future, particularly if up against the original continuation story rather than one of the spin offs. Disney takes all the higher priced IMAX theatres for an extended period as well.

    I agree about the shorter gaps, because three to four years kills the flow.

    Altough SP was released in late October. Star Wars did not arrive until some point in December 2015. So SP at one point had no competition. Star Wars would be an issue if it came out the same weekend or weekend after SP debuted.

    In Cubby's book, he was not pleased that the studio managed at that time by accountants, because the old guard had left or been fired, decided to throw LTK amidst Indiana Jones, Batman and Lethal Weapon. That explanation rarely is mentioned in why LTK underperformed at the US box office.


    Hence why Bond was moved to autumn/winter time.

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    @acoppola, this really seems like a fascinating and insightful book. I'm very much looking forward to reading it.
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