Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • Posts: 19,339
    acoppola wrote: »
    Time for a new controversy then.

    Connery has more Bond in his little finger than Craig and Brosnan combined would ever have.
    EoN seriously needs to do better with Bond No 007

    I have to agree in the utmost sincerity, though I like Brosnan a lot in GE and he was fine in TND.

    What irks me about the Craig era, is that he is the Bond that explains why the Connery Bond became who he is. It annoys me and insults my intelligence. It is like using a donkey to explain how a horse became a supreme racer.



    No he's not....Craig's Bond is a re-boot ,a totally different time-line...he is nothing to do with any of the other Bonds.
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    edited January 2017 Posts: 1,243
    bondjames wrote: »
    @acoppola, this really seems like a fascinating and insightful book. I'm very much looking forward to reading it.

    I would pay £100 for it. It is a "Cannot put down" book. The information within is a goldmine. I gained a better understanding of the franchise, and a more grounded perspective. Sometimes Bond fans in their fervour inadvertently insult Cubby. They should have supported him with the Dalton era, and given things a chance. Where were the fans when Cubby needed them?

    And Cubby has a story in the book when a fan says he refuses to see TLD based on critics writing. Cubby says to the man, but you should make your own mind up and not follow a critic.

    Because SF was helped by the critics giving their approval of Bond, after denigrating the character many times over the years.



    With each Bond actor, Cubby never short-changed anyone and was always looking for new ideas to build the franchise.

    I wish the late Harry Saltzman had an autobiography. My goodness would I love to read that, but it never was to be.

  • Posts: 4,617
    A different timeline with the same Goldfinger Aston. It does get confusing.
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    edited January 2017 Posts: 1,243
    barryt007 wrote: »
    acoppola wrote: »
    Time for a new controversy then.

    Connery has more Bond in his little finger than Craig and Brosnan combined would ever have.
    EoN seriously needs to do better with Bond No 007

    I have to agree in the utmost sincerity, though I like Brosnan a lot in GE and he was fine in TND.

    What irks me about the Craig era, is that he is the Bond that explains why the Connery Bond became who he is. It annoys me and insults my intelligence. It is like using a donkey to explain how a horse became a supreme racer.



    No he's not....Craig's Bond is a re-boot ,a totally different time-line...he is nothing to do with any of the other Bonds.

    It is supposed to be a fresh start and intentionally so, as Craig did not want to play the traditional James Bond straight away. He accepted the role on the basis that they start from scratch.

    So, fine and dandy, but then why did Martin Campbell say that we see how he becomes the Bond we all know and love. And the Aston DB5? What the hell was it doing in CR, when it is a totally different time-line. Connery's car was of its time.

    And the revised history of how he acquired it was ludicrous. It jars with Goldfinger, arguably the most famous and well-known Bond film of them all!

    I will say this again, but having the DB5 in a more serious film like CR, would be like having the Adam West Batmobile in Batman Begins. It detracted from Craig, by invoking the legacy of Connery.

    When I see the Aston DB5 in a non-Connery film, who am I going to think of? Kind of defeats the purpose of start from scratch and Bond as if the other films had not existed.





  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    Posts: 1,243
    patb wrote: »
    A different timeline with the same Goldfinger Aston. It does get confusing.

    I second that.

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    I love Martin Campbell, but I agree that the Aston DB5 was a mistake, and he was the one who brought it back initially. Since then Mendes has become somewhat fixated on it like a small child obsessing over a toy. It's rather ridiculous imho.

    I much prefer how they went with Lotus for Moore. That was one of the many things they did to make the Moore era different from Connery, and it worked, at least in my view. I actually prefer the white Esprit to the DB5 and always have, although my absolute favourite of all is Laz's DBS.
  • RC7RC7
    edited January 2017 Posts: 10,512
    There are no hard and fast timelines in Bond. They do what they want, when they want.
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    edited January 2017 Posts: 1,243
    bondjames wrote: »
    I love Martin Campbell, but I agree that the Aston DB5 was a mistake, and he was the one who brought it back initially. Since then Mendes has become somewhat fixated on it like a small child obsessing over a toy. It's rather ridiculous imho.

    I much prefer how they went with Lotus for Moore. That was one of the many things they did to make the Moore era different from Connery, and it worked, at least in my view. I actually prefer the white Esprit to the DB5 and always have, although my absolute favourite of all is Laz's DBS.

    Thank you. A serious Bond aficionado once told me, that by having the DB5 in the film, it screams that Connery is still the best Bond!

    Moore ran a mile from anything associated with Connery's legacy. And Broccoli/Saltzman were wise to give the 70's Bond a new audience and fresh appreciation.

    Incidentally, I love the OHMSS Aston and that is fine, as that model is different to Connery's. Same for Dalton in TLD. I am all for Bond having a new Aston, just like he must have the tuxedo.

    OHMSS and TLD Astons have similar designs.

  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,357
    If only they focused on using the Bond theme more over the DB5.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    It is also the same blue sky and the same yellow sun in the new timeline. What the hell?
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    It is also the same blue sky and the same yellow sun in the new timeline. What the hell?

    Pisses me off, no end. And that f*cking azure sea in CR? What does it think it is, TB?!
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Yeah, I noticed that. They are nodding to the past so hard their heads will fall off.
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    edited January 2017 Posts: 1,243
    RC7 wrote: »
    There are no hard and fast timelines in Bond. They do what they want, when they want.

    Bond, it is true has been inconsistent. For example Charles Gray is an ally of Bond in YOLT and then Blofeld in DAF.

    But, the Craig era did not need those distractions like the DB5, particularly as it was sold as a serious attempt to explore the character without the baggage of the past. And if it was a sincere reboot, then why reference the past. This is why Nolan's Batman films threw the past out. Christian Bale was his own man, with not a nod to Keaton and the others. And it added to the tone they were going for.

    And I feel Craig lost so much of who he is especially in SP, by the producers trying to make him into a Connery/Moore composite. It didn't work. They got greedy with the success and pulled a fast one on all the goodwill of the more seriously minded fans.

    He is not an actor that works best when they are trying to make him assume traits of someone else.



  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    edited January 2017 Posts: 1,243
    RC7 wrote: »
    It is also the same blue sky and the same yellow sun in the new timeline. What the hell?

    Pisses me off, no end. And that f*cking azure sea in CR? What does it think it is, TB?!

    I think you are missing the point entirely. Most reasonable posters here have never made ridiculous assertions like that. But fans of the series can blatantly see when something is out of place or does not belong.

    Reboot means reboot. Just like Brexit means Brexit.

  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    How I wish I were a true fan.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    How I wish I were a true fan.

    Me too. What a waste the last 30 years have been.
  • bondjames wrote: »
    I love Martin Campbell, but I agree that the Aston DB5 was a mistake, and he was the one who brought it back initially. Since then Mendes has become somewhat fixated on it like a small child obsessing over a toy. It's rather ridiculous

    Here's a new controversial opinion: the bringing back of the DB5 wasn't misused until Skyfall.

    With GoldenEye, the world had been deprived of a new Bond for six years. Bond needed to be brought back in a BIG way. So during the early stretch of the film, we get a fun, slightly tongue-in-cheek car race against a mysterious dame where Bond is now driving the classic DB5 as his personal sporting car. Absolutely nothing wrong with this, especially since there was nothing overtly wink-wink or fourth wall breaking about the scene. They played it straight. Fun, but straight. Good on Campbell and company.

    Tomorrow Never Dies and TWINE? Blink and you'll miss it cameos with the DB5 again, consistently that is, featured as Bond's personal ride. Most audiences apart from the hardcore fans probably didn't even realize Bond was driving the classic Aston. Nothing amiss here.

    Die Another Day. No DB5. And moving on...

    Casino Royale. Again, Campbell was required to bring Bond back in a BIG way after the extravagance of DAD and a 4 year absence. Classic Bond tropes were slowly and playfully being teased and reintroduced in fun and rewarding ways throughout. Having Bond win the DB5 in an early poker game against a scummy minor villain was both appropriate to the film's narrative and appropriate to the approach they were taking in reintroducing classic Bond elements. It's also consistent with the new timeline as this very obviously isn't the Goldfinger car. As with GoldenEye, it's played straight and it's fun.

    Quantum of Solace. No DB5. And moving on...

    Skyfall. Here is where I leave you. I cannot and will not defend the treatment of the DB5 in Skyfall. My thoughts on the scene are well documented elsewhere on this board and I'm not going to exhaust myself going through it all again. Fourth wall breaking, timeline obstructing, painfully unfunny, terribly misplaced at the key turning point between acts two and three. Quite possibly a contender for THE single most poorly thought out and constructed scene in the entire series. And Sam Mendes gleefully takes full credit for it. No, the DB5 itself hasn't been a problem in the modern Bond films. The DB5 in the hands of Sam Mendes has been the problem.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    I can agree with that @Some_Kind_Of_Hero. Mendes is the one who has used it most egregiously and gratuitously. I did like its appearance in GE & CR as well.

    One could argue that its appearance in SF was within reason as well, since it played to the 'old' vs. 'new' high tech message in the film.

    Unfortunately, he received such overwhelming cheers for the moment when that car appeared in SF (in every viewing of the film I saw in the theatre), that this perhaps led him to overplay it in SP. Give the people what they want, he must have thought. In retrospect, I'm not sure if the cheers were for the car or for the Bond theme, although there were laughs when he threatened to eject M as well.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    Agree too. Would rather it wasn't resurrected at all, but it was SF where the real mess was made. CR's was a cute nod, SF was a wrecking ball.
  • edited January 2017 Posts: 6,844
    bondjames wrote: »
    One could argue that its appearance in SF was within reason as well, since it played to the 'old' vs. 'new' high tech message in the film.

    I understand that symbolism on a film theory level, but there are so many more literal and technical reasons why the Aston Martin was a total goof-up in Skyfall that I cannot abide by how it was used. There probably was a way, however, to intelligently include it without ham-fistedly cocking up timeline, tone, and narrative pacing alike.
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    edited January 2017 Posts: 1,243
    bondjames wrote: »
    I can agree with that @Some_Kind_Of_Hero. Mendes is the one who has used it most egregiously and gratuitously. I did like its appearance in GE & CR as well.

    One could argue that its appearance in SF was within reason as well, since it played to the 'old' vs. 'new' high tech message in the film.

    Unfortunately, he received such overwhelming cheers for the moment when that car appeared in SF (in every viewing of the film I saw in the theatre), that this perhaps led him to overplay it in SP. Give the people what they want, he must have thought. In retrospect, I'm not sure if the cheers were for the car or for the Bond theme, although there were laughs when he threatened to eject M as well.

    I see where you are coming from. However for me it was borrowing ideas from the Brosnan era. Because it made sense in Goldeneye, though it was used as a wink ta the audience that classic style Bond is back. And GE was not a reboot. The past is referenced.

    For CR it took me out of the film. It is Bond from the beginning, hence there is no past.

    It felt rehashed in the Craig era, where it is supposed to be fresh. And to use it in three of his four films, feels like a creative crutch.

    The old adage - use sparingly.



  • edited January 2017 Posts: 11,189
    I think SP was really where the inclusion of the DB5 was taken too far. Never minded it in GE (we had not seen it for sometime), TND (it was, as people have said, a cameo appearance), CR (its worked into the plot) or SF (you weren't expecting to see the DB5 and the sight of it was well-done - plus it was the 50th anniversary so seemed appropriate to at least feature it).

    There was no need for it to be in SP.
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    Posts: 1,243
    It suited Brosnan better in my opinion. Perhaps that is why I preferred QOS out of all his films. I felt less distracted and more into the film.

    I cannot criticise DAD for winking to the past too much and then be OK with it in the later films. That is hypocrisy.
  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    Posts: 10,592
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    I think SP was really where the inclusion of the DB5 was taken too far. Never minded it in GE (we had not seen it for sometime), TND (it was, as people have said, a cameo appearance), CR (its worked into the plot) or SF (you weren't expecting to see the DB5 and the sight of it was well-done - plus it was the 50th anniversary so seemed appropriate to at least feature it).

    There was no need for it to be in SP.
    I never tire of seeing the DB5, but it did have a perfect send-off in SF. It was completely unnecessary to bring it back. But, it's Bond's personal vehicle now, so I can live with it.
  • QuantumOrganizationQuantumOrganization We have people everywhere
    Posts: 1,187
    Why can't they stop putting snow in the bond films! Enough with the call-backs! WAY too confusing!
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    acoppola wrote: »
    It suited Brosnan better in my opinion. Perhaps that is why I preferred QOS out of all his films. I felt less distracted and more into the film.

    I cannot criticise DAD for winking to the past too much and then be OK with it in the later films. That is hypocrisy.

    The DB5 in CR is done and dusted before the real nitty gritty. If you're still distracted by the time the real shit goes down your priorities are skewed imo.
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    edited January 2017 Posts: 1,243
    That is not the argument. Leave the Connery era alone. I only want to see that 60's car in Golldfingerr and Thunderball.

    Come up with something original, like the Connery era did.
  • QuantumOrganizationQuantumOrganization We have people everywhere
    Posts: 1,187
    acoppola wrote: »
    That is not the argument. Leave the Connery era alone. I only want to see that 60's car in Golfinger and Thunderball.

    Come up with something original, like the Connery era did.

    So no YOLT?

  • Posts: 11,189
    "Homages" in themselves are ok but Bond producers shouldn't fall into the trap of making a film around them - as they did with DAD and to a lesser extent SP.
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    edited January 2017 Posts: 1,243
    RC7 wrote: »
    acoppola wrote: »
    It suited Brosnan better in my opinion. Perhaps that is why I preferred QOS out of all his films. I felt less distracted and more into the film.

    I cannot criticise DAD for winking to the past too much and then be OK with it in the later films. That is hypocrisy.

    The DB5 in CR is done and dusted before the real nitty gritty. If you're still distracted by the time the real shit goes down your priorities are skewed imo.

    Did the DB5 make CR better as a film?

    And logically, what was a previous Bond's car doing, if CR is his first mission?

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