Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • OK, here's one for you:

    Denise Richards is the ultimate Bond girl. Not because her character is interesting, or because she's a good actress, or because she has any kind of chemistry with anyone else on set.

    She's the ultimate because she's basically a distillation of the formula down to its most fundamental elements. She's essentially a giant pair of fake boobs on legs, and all the costume work, blocking, and camera work is geared toward that. The directors know it, and everyone else on set knows it, and on those criteria she's the most 'pure' expression of the Bond girl type. The platonic ideal of it, in fact.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited February 2017 Posts: 23,883
    octofinger wrote: »
    OK, here's one for you:

    Denise Richards is the ultimate Bond girl. Not because her character is interesting, or because she's a good actress, or because she has any kind of chemistry with anyone else on set.

    She's the ultimate because she's basically a distillation of the formula down to its most fundamental elements. She's essentially a giant pair of fake boobs on legs, and all the costume work, blocking, and camera work is geared toward that. The directors know it, and everyone else on set knows it, and on those criteria she's the most 'pure' expression of the Bond girl type. The platonic ideal of it, in fact.
    I like your line of thinking, but respectfully disagree on your conclusion. I think that the purest distillation of the formula doesn't include 'fake' boobs, but rather an inability to act or speak English clearly (or at least one must do it with an exotic accent). Based on that, I contend that perhaps Talisa Soto's legendary Lupe is the essence of a Bond girl distilled to its simplistic core.
    GBF wrote: »
    Here is one controversial opinion of mine:

    I wish Bond's skills had more limitations. Or does Bond really need to know everything, speak every language, be faster than everyone, be stronger than everyone, be smarter than everyone else? Why does he always need to win in every card game? The films become very predictable if you know that Bond is always better?

    I would like Bond to be a skilled and competent agent but not a superhuman one. He should not be a superhero who is invincible. Don't make us believe that he can survive a fall from an extremly high bridge or a free fall from a plane.
    I agree, but during the Craig era my criticisms are more related to his fighting skills. Sure, we had him getting beaten to within an inch of his life in SP (a welcome change for him), but then we have him getting it on with Swann shortly thereafter, which doesn't make any sense in the context of how aggressive that fight was. At least the one in the train in TSWLM was less viscious (and hence the bit of 'loving' afterwards was more believable).
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Maybe not so controversial but here it goes. I miss James Bond being a connoisseur of the finer things in life.

    Just watchted DAF, I love how Connery unmasks Wint & Kidd because he knows Mouton Rothschild is a claret.
    Absolutely. that was something that Connery/Moore did so well. The slight arrogance and know it all attitude.
    GBF wrote: »
    I agree but do you think it would really work today? Or wouldn't it sound too snobbish? I guess back in the 60s it worked very well if you believe Bond was born in the early 30s and he grew up before the roaring 60s where many of this elitist behaviours became unpopular. Until AVTAK Bond - now in his mid50s - still made sense as a more elegant person. However, after that the producers were aware that they needed to update Bond. Or can you believe that a modern Bond would say the "listening to the Beatles without earmuffs" phrase? I quite like Dalton's approach.
    I think it will work very well today, but you need the right actor to pull it off. As an example, one of my favourite film characters is Tom Hank's Robert Langdon in the Dan Brown adaptations. In Angels and Demons, he makes a comment about Pope Paul IV ordering the castration of several statues in the Vatican and also schools the Swiss Guard on La Purga. Loved both bits to death.
    pachazo wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I've noticed a few folks here slamming the Shrublands section. I personally really enjoy that part. The film slows down and allows Connery to do some snooping about and Barry delivers some great musical motifs during this bit.
    That he does, no question about it. I'll give you that one. How many times has Barry elevated a scene with his brilliance?
    Too many times to count, and I really miss his excellence during the snooping scenes. The closest we've got to it lately (imho) has been Arnold's work during the Opera sequence in QoS and Newman's work during the Shanghai sequences in SP (it's modern but in the same spirit).
  • Posts: 4,325
    pachazo wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    One of my personal favourites and certainly on my top five, "Thunderball" is one of the most well rounded Bond adventures to date. Exotic locations, beautiful women, battle sequences, gadgets, suspense, terrific music, and a memorable villain add up to the best of the "popcorn" Bond movies. Terrific entertainment and very faithful to Fleming! It's madness to have it in the bottom 5, pure madness. I would go as far as saying that those who don't like TB, don't really like Fleming or Bond.
    Absolutely. My second favorite of the whole series. Everything I love about Bond blended together into one great film. I can understand not liking it as much as others, but calling it the worst or even just bottom five is absurd.

    I fail to see how it's so absurd. In fact, I'm beginning to think that TB is the most overrated film on this site by quite some margin. Of course it has elements that I can enjoy, particularly any scene with Fiona in it, but so much of it is a long, boring mess that you have to slog your way through.

    There's an amazing lack of tension throughout the film when it should be full of it. Much of it feels like we're just following Connery around while he's vacationing in the Bahamas. Some of the casting choices were uninspired. Auger is beautiful yet incredibly bland. Celi as Largo is very dull, he has the personality of a toaster. Van Nutter can't act worth a lick.

    The editing is sloppy in places. That last underwater battle becomes very frustrating to watch because it just goes on forever. The Shrublands sequence feels wasted, as there's really no good reason for Bond to be there. The PTS is corny as hell. And I could go on and on.

    There is a big problem tension-wise in that the audience, by seeing the downed Vulcan, is in someway ahead of Bond.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    That's what happens in the book though. I personally like that it is so faithful.
  • edited February 2017 Posts: 11,189
    Murdock wrote: »
    I love Thunderball and Tomorrow Never Dies. Shoot me. ;)

    That's the spirit! I find it disheartening that we have Bond fans warring over/cutting down TB and TND alike!

    Anyone down for a TB/TND double feature?

    I did one a few years ago and TB came out as the clear winner. It's got its flaws but its classier and better plotted. In comparison, TND feels too much like a checklist of Bond clichés.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited February 2017 Posts: 23,883
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    I love Thunderball and Tomorrow Never Dies. Shoot me. ;)

    That's the spirit! I find it disheartening that we have Bond fans warring over/cutting down TB and TND alike!

    Anyone down for a TB/TND double feature?

    I did a few years ago and TB came out as the clear winner. It's got its flaws but its classier and better plotted.
    Undoubtedly, at least imho. It's unusual to see these two being considered for a double bill as they are quite different 'pace' wise. I think DN/TB/CR make a good combo due to the Caribbean influences. One could throw LALD in there as well.
  • edited February 2017 Posts: 11,189
    bondjames wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    I love Thunderball and Tomorrow Never Dies. Shoot me. ;)

    That's the spirit! I find it disheartening that we have Bond fans warring over/cutting down TB and TND alike!

    Anyone down for a TB/TND double feature?

    I did a few years ago and TB came out as the clear winner. It's got its flaws but its classier and better plotted.
    Undoubtedly, at least imho. It's unusual to see these two being considered for a double bill as they are quite different 'pace' wise. I think DN/TB/CR make a good combo due to the Caribbean influences. One could throw LALD in there as well.

    I think I wanted to do an old one and a more recent one together.

    I also did a double-bill of OHMSS and LTK and was disappointed with LTK and a Guy Hamilton double bill with GF and LALD - disappointed with LALD.

    Notice a pattern here ;)
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    To add to the TB talk, i'm not the biggest fan of it. Domino is one of my favourite Bond Girls, but the Q scene is the worst in the series (it oozes animosity from Bond towards Q) and the fight on the Disco Volante is laughable (when you look at fights such as Bond v Grant in FRWL or any fight from OHMSS, the DV fight is amateurish). The rest of the film, I am more or less lukewarm towards.
  • edited February 2017 Posts: 11,189
    Bond acts like a sulky teen in the TB Q scene.

    Also, I do find it amusing when Q says: "I find this business of equipping you in the field...on the run as it were...highly irregular."

    He'd obviously mellowed by LTK.

    In terms of the film, I do likes its indulgent cinematography. For the last time in quite a while you actually feel like you are with Bond in the Bahamas.
  • dominicgreenedominicgreene The Eternal QOS Defender
    Posts: 1,756
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Maybe not so controversial but here it goes. I miss James Bond being a connoisseur of the finer things in life.

    Just watchted DAF, I love how Connery unmasks Wint & Kidd because he knows Mouton Rothschild is a claret.

    This. I want to see Bond's hate for tea, his picky tastes in alcohol and foods... I suppose the only problem is that it might paint him as a snob to the general audience, but that's part of the fun of his character anyway.
  • JamesBondKenyaJamesBondKenya Danny Boyle laughs to himself
    Posts: 2,730
    I would think that is would be awesome if after Bond 25 they went back to the 50's and did more faithful adaptations of the books. Imagine if they remade frwl with today's production value it may be the best movie of all time
  • Posts: 15,110
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    TB does get boring, though. It could have been 20-30 minutes shorter (something that could be said of other Bond films as well).

    Here's my controversial statement: the long/slow bits are part of its strength and more Bond movies should have them.

    Not too controversial, I've said the same and most of the Fleming purists would agree.

    I really enjoy TB but honestly can any hardcore TB fan tell me this scene isn't stupid?


    I don't think it is. I love the scene.

    Same here. Pure Fleming too.
  • Posts: 4,325
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    TB does get boring, though. It could have been 20-30 minutes shorter (something that could be said of other Bond films as well).

    Here's my controversial statement: the long/slow bits are part of its strength and more Bond movies should have them.

    Not too controversial, I've said the same and most of the Fleming purists would agree.

    I really enjoy TB but honestly can any hardcore TB fan tell me this scene isn't stupid?


    I don't think it is. I love the scene.

    Same here. Pure Fleming too.

    Same here, always loved that scene.
  • Posts: 11,189
    I also noticed that the clock is the same one on GF's jet.
  • Posts: 15,110
    Something else I love about Shrubland: it features Bond in a seemingly mundane setting, and shows him as he's perceived to the outside, civilian world. We need more Shrubland scenes and more Pat type of Bond girls. Women oblivious to what is truly going on.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited February 2017 Posts: 23,883
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Something else I love about Shrubland: it features Bond in a seemingly mundane setting, and shows him as he's perceived to the outside, civilian world. We need more Shrubland scenes and more Pat type of Bond girls. Women oblivious to what is truly going on.
    That's a good point. The CR gambling and Solange scenes come to mind as similar in this respect.
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Something else I love about Shrubland: it features Bond in a seemingly mundane setting, and shows him as he's perceived to the outside, civilian world. We need more Shrubland scenes and more Pat type of Bond girls. Women oblivious to what is truly going on.

    After time spent at Shrublands, doing much cavorting and whatnot, it's time for Bond to leave...

    "Oh by the way, what is it you do for a living?"

    "Me? Oh, um I'm sort of a...licensed trouble shooter"

    Love it.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Something else I love about Shrubland: it features Bond in a seemingly mundane setting, and shows him as he's perceived to the outside, civilian world. We need more Shrubland scenes and more Pat type of Bond girls. Women oblivious to what is truly going on.

    The Shrublands scenes are brilliant. What I find troubling with TB is that it starts to sag in the second half and never quite gets up a head of steam. I always found this with the novel too.
  • Posts: 15,110
    bondjames wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Something else I love about Shrubland: it features Bond in a seemingly mundane setting, and shows him as he's perceived to the outside, civilian world. We need more Shrubland scenes and more Pat type of Bond girls. Women oblivious to what is truly going on.
    That's a good point. The CR gambling and Solange scenes come to mind as similar in this respect.

    We had glimpses of it in CR and very little otherwise. Maybe in FYEO too. I think we need more of them.
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,197
    RC7 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Something else I love about Shrubland: it features Bond in a seemingly mundane setting, and shows him as he's perceived to the outside, civilian world. We need more Shrubland scenes and more Pat type of Bond girls. Women oblivious to what is truly going on.

    The Shrublands scenes are brilliant. What I find troubling with TB is that it starts to sag in the second half and never quite gets up a head of steam. I always found this with the novel too.

    Interesting. I thought exactly the other way around. I really dislike the whole Shrublands scenes. There is just so much wrong and way to much is happen icidently. Hardly anything really makes sense. However, once they move to the Bahamas, the film improves enormously...
  • Posts: 15,110
    But accidental meetings and coincidences are common tropes in genre fiction. Ian Fleming was quite fond of them: in GF, OHMSS, MR to name a few.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Not sure how Bond has become working class when he wears Tom Ford Suits and Omega Watches?

    There is a difference between expensive items and elegance. Bond isn't elegant in SF and that bothers me. You can wear whatever expensive stuff you like, if you start drinking Heineken from the bottle and you shave your hair like a bouncer you are still a streetworker in a suit.

    His suits are too tight

    Those suits fit nicely before he started chugging Heineken.
  • RC7RC7
    edited February 2017 Posts: 10,512
    GBF wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Something else I love about Shrubland: it features Bond in a seemingly mundane setting, and shows him as he's perceived to the outside, civilian world. We need more Shrubland scenes and more Pat type of Bond girls. Women oblivious to what is truly going on.

    The Shrublands scenes are brilliant. What I find troubling with TB is that it starts to sag in the second half and never quite gets up a head of steam. I always found this with the novel too.

    Interesting. I thought exactly the other way around. I really dislike the whole Shrublands scenes. There is just so much wrong and way to much is happen icidently. Hardly anything really makes sense. However, once they move to the Bahamas, the film improves enormously...

    As @Ludovico says, it is quite a common trope. However, I do think it's used a little egregiously in the TB novel, which carries over to the film, but I don't mind the coincidental instances at this early juncture. I really like the pacing, the slow burn, which combined with Barry's score really packs these scenes with intrigue and atmosphere. I feel like they do a really good job of the build, but then there's a mid-point sag and the denouement never really has the energy and excitement to deliver a worthy pay-off. This is also an issue I have with the novel.
  • Posts: 15,110
    I'll say it again: we need more Shrubland. I would not mind a Bond movie set almost exclusively in such setting in fact.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    Ludovico wrote: »
    But accidental meetings and coincidences are common tropes in genre fiction. Ian Fleming was quite fond of them: in GF, OHMSS, MR to name a few.

    Exactly. MR, TB and GF being prime Fleming novel examples.
  • Posts: 11,189
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    But accidental meetings and coincidences are common tropes in genre fiction. Ian Fleming was quite fond of them: in GF, OHMSS, MR to name a few.

    Exactly. MR, TB and GF being prime Fleming novel examples.

    Are we excusing repetitive and...gulp...lazy writing just because its Ian Fleming ;)
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    Unrealistic coincidental writing. Not sloppy.
  • GBFGBF
    edited February 2017 Posts: 3,197
    I like the setting and I always love it when Bond is snooping around but with regard to the Shrubland scenes, the script is not really good. For example:

    1. It is a too extreme coincidence that Bond is there at the same time as SPECTRE.
    2. It is ludicrous that a health spa is built up next to a military base. I can hardly think of a worse place to recover and relax.
    3. Why does Lippe not hide that he is a SPECTRE agent?
    4. Why does Bond not try to hide his identity?
    5. What is the purpose of the challenge between Bond and Lippe trying to kill each other if it goes nowhere.
    6. Bond also seems to be more interested in banging Pat instead of investigating what is going on.
    7. The reason why Lippe is killed by SPECTRE is ludicrous. Couldn't they think of a better explanantion?

    I guess with a few script changes, the Shrubland scenes could have been so much better.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    GBF wrote: »
    6. Bond also seems to be more interested in banging Pat instead of investigating what is going on.
    This seems like a noble pursuit from my perspective, and I contend that Bond ably attended to both duties while at Shrublands. He walked and chewed gum as it were.

    On a more serious note, there are plot flaws in all these films if one really wants to analyze them.
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,197
    I mus say that I am really not a big fan of completely unbelievable coincidences. So I indeed don't like Bond luckily running into Tracy after his escape from Piz Gloria. I mean she could have been everywhere else in the world.

    On the contrary, I don't mind that Bond is going into space or SPECTRE having a satelite station in a volcano. This is fiction and part of the fun. But the individual motivations must be feasible and the development of the story must be logical.
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