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Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited February 2017 Posts: 23,883
    GBF wrote: »
    I mus say that I am really not a big fan of completely unbelievable coincidences. So I indeed don't like Bond luckily running into Tracy after his escape from Piz Gloria. I mean she could have been everywhere else in the world. .
    Didn't she specifically come looking for him though? I seem to recall that being the case. I believe Draco told her where he was.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Synchronized events happen in real life, too. Nothing weird about it.
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,423
    bondjames wrote: »
    GBF wrote: »
    I mus say that I am really not a big fan of completely unbelievable coincidences. So I indeed don't like Bond luckily running into Tracy after his escape from Piz Gloria. I mean she could have been everywhere else in the world. .
    Didn't she specifically come looking for him though? I seem to recall that being the case. I believe Draco told her where he was.

    Yarp, Tracy was in the area looking for Bond, via Marc-Ange.

    It would've been acceptable if the filmmakers had Bond comment on the coincidences, like he did in the novels.

  • gumboltgumbolt Now with in-office photocopier
    Posts: 153
    I agree that TB is overrated - I would say the most overrated Bond movie of all (to parody the theatrical trailer). And to contrast that, I would say OP is the most underrated because although clearly not Bond's all time high (there I go again), it offers the wonderful Russian military HQ plot sequence ("Czechoslovakia!!") and the West German climax, which is thrilling. It is let down by some OTT comedy moments but, for me, it is Roger Moore's best Bond movie. Now that should keep you in curry for a while...
  • Some_Kind_Of_HeroSome_Kind_Of_Hero
    Posts: 6,844
    bondjames wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    Some_Kind_Of_Hero wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    I love Thunderball and Tomorrow Never Dies. Shoot me. ;)

    That's the spirit! I find it disheartening that we have Bond fans warring over/cutting down TB and TND alike!

    Anyone down for a TB/TND double feature?

    I did a few years ago and TB came out as the clear winner. It's got its flaws but its classier and better plotted.
    Undoubtedly, at least imho. It's unusual to see these two being considered for a double bill as they are quite different 'pace' wise. I think DN/TB/CR make a good combo due to the Caribbean influences. One could throw LALD in there as well.

    One double bill I have done and enjoyed in the past is Thunderball and Moonraker. The two compliment each other quite nicely with their grander, more epic scopes and relaxed pacing.
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,423
    That's one of my fav double bills TB - MR. As you said epic.
  • JamesBondKenyaJamesBondKenya Danny Boyle laughs to himself
    Posts: 2,730
    GBF wrote: »
    I like the setting and I always love it when Bond is snooping around but with regard to the Shrubland scenes, the script is not really good. For example:

    1. It is a too extreme coincidence that Bond is there at the same time as SPECTRE.
    2. It is ludicrous that a health spa is built up next to a military base. I can hardly think of a worse place to recover and relax.
    3. Why does Lippe not hide that he is a SPECTRE agent?
    4. Why does Bond not try to hide his identity?
    5. What is the purpose of the challenge between Bond and Lippe trying to kill each other if it goes nowhere.
    6. Bond also seems to be more interested in banging Pat instead of investigating what is going on.
    7. The reason why Lippe is killed by SPECTRE is ludicrous. Couldn't they think of a better explanantion?

    I guess with a few script changes, the Shrubland scenes could have been so much better.

    Agreed I love the premise of thunderball but it just falls flat despite everybody on this website loving it
  • JamesBondKenyaJamesBondKenya Danny Boyle laughs to himself
    Posts: 2,730
    gumbolt wrote: »
    I agree that TB is overrated - I would say the most overrated Bond movie of all (to parody the theatrical trailer). And to contrast that, I would say OP is the most underrated because although clearly not Bond's all time high (there I go again), it offers the wonderful Russian military HQ plot sequence ("Czechoslovakia!!") and the West German climax, which is thrilling. It is let down by some OTT comedy moments but, for me, it is Roger Moore's best Bond movie. Now that should keep you in curry for a while...

    Well I think thunderball is the worst and octopussy is one of the best so I'm right there with u
  • Some_Kind_Of_HeroSome_Kind_Of_Hero
    edited February 2017 Posts: 6,844
    bondjames wrote: »
    octofinger wrote: »
    OK, here's one for you:

    Denise Richards is the ultimate Bond girl. Not because her character is interesting, or because she's a good actress, or because she has any kind of chemistry with anyone else on set.

    She's the ultimate because she's basically a distillation of the formula down to its most fundamental elements. She's essentially a giant pair of fake boobs on legs, and all the costume work, blocking, and camera work is geared toward that. The directors know it, and everyone else on set knows it, and on those criteria she's the most 'pure' expression of the Bond girl type. The platonic ideal of it, in fact.
    I like your line of thinking, but respectfully disagree on your conclusion. I think that the purest distillation of the formula doesn't include 'fake' boobs, but rather an inability to act or speak English clearly (or at least one must do it with an exotic accent). Based on that, I contend that perhaps Talisa Soto's legendary Lupe is the essence of a Bond girl distilled to its simplistic core.

    Christmas Jones is a delightful character, impeccably played by Denise Richards. She's a sassy supermodel nuclear physicist. This is James Bond, not John le Carré. She knows her stuff and contributes to Bond's mission as an ally, yet doesn't impose upon the film with action sequences all to her own and occasionally requires to be rescued by Bond. When's the last time we had a Bond girl like that? That's right, not since Christmas Jones. It's difficult to define any one character as the purest distillation of the essence of a Bond girl, because there are different types—a Tracy is not a Stacey and a Paris is not a Pussy—but for her type, there are few better than Richards' Christmas Jones.

    Edit: Actually now that I think about it, Paris and Pussy may very well belong to the same category of Bond girls. Okay then, a Goodnight is not a Goodhead.
  • JamesBondKenyaJamesBondKenya Danny Boyle laughs to himself
    Posts: 2,730
    Some_Kind_Of_Hero wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    octofinger wrote: »
    OK, here's one for you:

    Denise Richards is the ultimate Bond girl. Not because her character is interesting, or because she's a good actress, or because she has any kind of chemistry with anyone else on set.

    She's the ultimate because she's basically a distillation of the formula down to its most fundamental elements. She's essentially a giant pair of fake boobs on legs, and all the costume work, blocking, and camera work is geared toward that. The directors know it, and everyone else on set knows it, and on those criteria she's the most 'pure' expression of the Bond girl type. The platonic ideal of it, in fact.
    I like your line of thinking, but respectfully disagree on your conclusion. I think that the purest distillation of the formula doesn't include 'fake' boobs, but rather an inability to act or speak English clearly (or at least one must do it with an exotic accent). Based on that, I contend that perhaps Talisa Soto's legendary Lupe is the essence of a Bond girl distilled to its simplistic core.

    Christmas Jones is a delightful character, impeccably played by Denise Richards. She's a sassy supermodel nuclear physicist. This is James Bond, not John le Carré. She knows her stuff and contributes to Bond's mission as an ally, yet doesn't impose upon the film with action sequences all to her own and occasionally requires to be rescued by Bond. When's the last time we had a Bond girl like that? That's right, not since Christmas Jones. It's difficult to define any one character as the purest distillation of the essence of a Bond girl, because there are different types—a Tracy is not a Stacey and a Paris is not a Pussy—but for her type, there are few better than Richards' Christmas Jones.

    And what did we learn from all the classic bond films? It doesn't fucking matter nothing matters other than, is she hot? Is she? If she is but she can't speak English they didn't care they would just dub them so according to those rules, Christmas jones is fine because she's hot and that's all that matters with a bond girl
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Some_Kind_Of_Hero wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    octofinger wrote: »
    OK, here's one for you:

    Denise Richards is the ultimate Bond girl. Not because her character is interesting, or because she's a good actress, or because she has any kind of chemistry with anyone else on set.

    She's the ultimate because she's basically a distillation of the formula down to its most fundamental elements. She's essentially a giant pair of fake boobs on legs, and all the costume work, blocking, and camera work is geared toward that. The directors know it, and everyone else on set knows it, and on those criteria she's the most 'pure' expression of the Bond girl type. The platonic ideal of it, in fact.
    I like your line of thinking, but respectfully disagree on your conclusion. I think that the purest distillation of the formula doesn't include 'fake' boobs, but rather an inability to act or speak English clearly (or at least one must do it with an exotic accent). Based on that, I contend that perhaps Talisa Soto's legendary Lupe is the essence of a Bond girl distilled to its simplistic core.

    Christmas Jones is a delightful character, impeccably played by Denise Richards. She's a sassy supermodel nuclear physicist. This is James Bond, not John le Carré. She knows her stuff and contributes to Bond's mission as an ally, yet doesn't impose upon the film with action sequences all to her own and occasionally requires to be rescued by Bond. When's the last time we had a Bond girl like that? That's right, not since Christmas Jones. It's difficult to define any one character as the purest distillation of the essence of a Bond girl, because there are different types—a Tracy is not a Stacey and a Paris is not a Pussy—but for her type, there are few better than Richards' Christmas Jones.

    Edit: Actually now that I think about it, Paris and Pussy may very well belong to the same category of Bond girls. Okay then, a Goodnight is not a Goodhead.
    I hadn't thought about the different types of Bond girls before. It could be an interesting exercise to try and categorize them.

    I think Goodhead (not to be confused with Goodnight) is probably the best of the liberated and educated types (Drs., if you will).

    Of the airhead variety, I still say Lupe and perhaps Goodnight are up there with the best of them.

  • JamesBondKenyaJamesBondKenya Danny Boyle laughs to himself
    Posts: 2,730
    bondjames wrote: »
    Some_Kind_Of_Hero wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    octofinger wrote: »
    OK, here's one for you:

    Denise Richards is the ultimate Bond girl. Not because her character is interesting, or because she's a good actress, or because she has any kind of chemistry with anyone else on set.

    She's the ultimate because she's basically a distillation of the formula down to its most fundamental elements. She's essentially a giant pair of fake boobs on legs, and all the costume work, blocking, and camera work is geared toward that. The directors know it, and everyone else on set knows it, and on those criteria she's the most 'pure' expression of the Bond girl type. The platonic ideal of it, in fact.
    I like your line of thinking, but respectfully disagree on your conclusion. I think that the purest distillation of the formula doesn't include 'fake' boobs, but rather an inability to act or speak English clearly (or at least one must do it with an exotic accent). Based on that, I contend that perhaps Talisa Soto's legendary Lupe is the essence of a Bond girl distilled to its simplistic core.

    Christmas Jones is a delightful character, impeccably played by Denise Richards. She's a sassy supermodel nuclear physicist. This is James Bond, not John le Carré. She knows her stuff and contributes to Bond's mission as an ally, yet doesn't impose upon the film with action sequences all to her own and occasionally requires to be rescued by Bond. When's the last time we had a Bond girl like that? That's right, not since Christmas Jones. It's difficult to define any one character as the purest distillation of the essence of a Bond girl, because there are different types—a Tracy is not a Stacey and a Paris is not a Pussy—but for her type, there are few better than Richards' Christmas Jones.

    Edit: Actually now that I think about it, Paris and Pussy may very well belong to the same category of Bond girls. Okay then, a Goodnight is not a Goodhead.
    I hadn't thought about the different types of Bond girls before. It could be an interesting exercise to try and categorize them.

    I think Goodhead (not to be confused with Goodnight) is probably the best of the liberated and educated types (Drs., if you will).

    Of the airhead variety, I still say Lupe and perhaps Goodnight are up there with the best of them.

    a woman....

  • GetCarterGetCarter
    edited February 2017 Posts: 386
    Here's one - Christoph Waltz was just fine as Blofeld.

    I thought he was very watchable. It was the kind of Blofeld you just wanna punch in the face. Like Donald Pleasance.

    I don't see why he has to cop so much flak.

    As for the SP script, well ... that's another matter. Don't blame Waltz!
  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    edited February 2017 Posts: 7,314
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I'll say it again: we need more Shrubland. I would not mind a Bond movie set almost exclusively in such setting in fact.
    If Craig does indeed return and Bond stays retired, then we could get a whole film of 007 in the supermarket.
  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    Posts: 7,314
    I would hope that we'd get to see some gratuitous sex and violence.
  • dominicgreenedominicgreene The Eternal QOS Defender
    Posts: 1,756
    I'm still sort of confused what people are referring to when they say shrublands.
  • Some_Kind_Of_HeroSome_Kind_Of_Hero
    Posts: 6,844
    Birdleson wrote: »
    dominicgreene wrote: »
    I'm still sort of confused what people are referring to when they say shrublands.

    Back in the '60s and '70s, before the shaving of personal areas was in vogue, it is what many of us referred to those areas as.

    Yes, and Bond spent a good deal of TB in shrublands.
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,125
    GBF wrote: »
    I like the setting and I always love it when Bond is snooping around but with regard to the Shrubland scenes, the script is not really good. For example:

    1. It is a too extreme coincidence that Bond is there at the same time as SPECTRE.
    2. It is ludicrous that a health spa is built up next to a military base. I can hardly think of a worse place to recover and relax.
    3. Why does Lippe not hide that he is a SPECTRE agent?
    4. Why does Bond not try to hide his identity?
    5. What is the purpose of the challenge between Bond and Lippe trying to kill each other if it goes nowhere.
    6. Bond also seems to be more interested in banging Pat instead of investigating what is going on.
    7. The reason why Lippe is killed by SPECTRE is ludicrous. Couldn't they think of a better explanantion?

    I guess with a few script changes, the Shrubland scenes could have been so much better.

    1. It's a common coincidence in genre stories. 2. Why? I lived near a military airport. It can be very quiet. 3. He does not have his membership tattooed on his forehead either. 4. Why would he? He did not sign in as MI6 agent. And James Bond is a common name. 5. Bond does not try to kill Lippe and the latter's attempts rise Bond's suspicion and irate Blofeld. 6.He does investigate but discreetly and as a spy should: keeping his cover. 7. On the contrary: Lippe raise suspicion on instead of laying low and focusing on his mission. Blofeld valuing loyalty and discipline above all else he had him killed.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    LeonardPine wrote: »
    "Thunderball is the worst cinematic film ever"

    That's not controversial, its just plain stupid.

    He's probably never seen 'Abbott & Costello Go To Mars'.
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,197
    Ludovico wrote: »
    GBF wrote: »
    I like the setting and I always love it when Bond is snooping around but with regard to the Shrubland scenes, the script is not really good. For example:

    1. It is a too extreme coincidence that Bond is there at the same time as SPECTRE.
    2. It is ludicrous that a health spa is built up next to a military base. I can hardly think of a worse place to recover and relax.
    3. Why does Lippe not hide that he is a SPECTRE agent?
    4. Why does Bond not try to hide his identity?
    5. What is the purpose of the challenge between Bond and Lippe trying to kill each other if it goes nowhere.
    6. Bond also seems to be more interested in banging Pat instead of investigating what is going on.
    7. The reason why Lippe is killed by SPECTRE is ludicrous. Couldn't they think of a better explanantion?

    I guess with a few script changes, the Shrubland scenes could have been so much better.

    1. It's a common coincidence in genre stories. 2. Why? I lived near a military airport. It can be very quiet. 3. He does not have his membership tattooed on his forehead either. 4. Why would he? He did not sign in as MI6 agent. And James Bond is a common name. 5. Bond does not try to kill Lippe and the latter's attempts rise Bond's suspicion and irate Blofeld. 6.He does investigate but discreetly and as a spy should: keeping his cover. 7. On the contrary: Lippe raise suspicion on instead of laying low and focusing on his mission. Blofeld valuing loyalty and discipline above all else he had him killed.

    1. yes but it is still not a good idea to make it a coincidence. 2. You know what Pat says when the planes take off. 3. No he didn't but it is almost as obvious. 4. Bond knows that his name is well known by SPECTRE. 5. Bond's "revenge" does not lead to anythhing. 6. I don't really get Bond's behaviour: In one moment, he is overly involved, in the next, he does not seem to care so very much about what is going on there. 7. I think the particular motivation is mentioned in the film. Further, killing Lippe in such an obvious way should raise even much more suspicion.Why not kill Bond instead?

    As I said, there is a lot to love in Thunderball, I just find the script sloppy in many places, especially with regard to the Shrubland scenes.
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,125
    Okay first Bond did not expect to meet an enemy agent in Shrubland. He's there for therapy, not on a mission. He had no reason whatsoever to sign in using an alias... Which he rarely does even on a mission. For all he knows Lippe may be 1)a civilian with a dodgy tattoo or 2)an enemy here for the same reason as Bond. So he investigates about the man discreetly and keeping things as normal as possible. And even on a mission he does take time to have affairs. Killing Bond at this time would most likely create far more concern by MI6 than merely killing Lippe whose job is done. At that time the bombs have been stolen and SPECTRE is unaware that Bond knows there's something fishy about Derval. Their concern is to punish Lippe.
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,197
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Okay first Bond did not expect to meet an enemy agent in Shrubland. He's there for therapy, not on a mission. He had no reason whatsoever to sign in using an alias... Which he rarely does even on a mission. For all he knows Lippe may be 1)a civilian with a dodgy tattoo or 2)an enemy here for the same reason as Bond. So he investigates about the man discreetly and keeping things as normal as possible. And even on a mission he does take time to have affairs. Killing Bond at this time would most likely create far more concern by MI6 than merely killing Lippe whose job is done. At that time the bombs have been stolen and SPECTRE is unaware that Bond knows there's something fishy about Derval. Their concern is to punish Lippe.

    Shortly after MI6 is informed that SPECTRE has stolen some nukes, so there is enough concern... Killing Bond could help since he has some information about Derval, is as we all know a competent agent and SPECTRE is still longing for revenge after Bond killing Dr. No, Grant and Klebb. I don't mind SPECTRE killing Lippe, I just don't like the explanation.
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,125
    But they don't know Bond has any information about Derval. Killing him at this point would cause more trouble than anything else. In any case, the Shrubland episode makes sense and stands pretty well in spite of the coincidences which are common tropes in spy fiction, crime fiction, adventure fiction, etc.
  • CountJohnCountJohn
    Posts: 230
    GetCarter wrote: »
    Here's one - Christoph Waltz was just fine as Blofeld.

    I thought he was very watchable. It was the kind of Blofeld you just wanna punch in the face. Like Donald Pleasance.

    I don't see why he has to cop so much flak.

    As for the SP script, well ... that's another matter. Don't blame Waltz!

    I would put him second to Savalas.
  • RoadphillRoadphill United Kingdom
    Posts: 984
    @j_w_pepper Cant agree with you on Skyfall my friend. There was so much I disliked about it.

    You are on the money for FYEO though. I dont think it is as good as The towering and majestic TSWLM but its a cracking film, and a nice change of pace for Moore. With a little bit of better direction and a nice Barry score (as opposed to the assualt on the ears Conti provided) it could have been a classic.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    Ludovico wrote: »
    But they don't know Bond has any information about Derval. Killing him at this point would cause more trouble than anything else. In any case, the Shrubland episode makes sense and stands pretty well in spite of the coincidences which are common tropes in spy fiction, crime fiction, adventure fiction, etc.

    Exactly.
  • GetCarterGetCarter
    edited February 2017 Posts: 386
    CountJohn wrote: »
    GetCarter wrote: »
    Here's one - Christoph Waltz was just fine as Blofeld.

    I thought he was very watchable. It was the kind of Blofeld you just wanna punch in the face. Like Donald Pleasance.

    I don't see why he has to cop so much flak.

    As for the SP script, well ... that's another matter. Don't blame Waltz!

    I would put him second to Savalas.

    Savalas
    Waltz
    Pleasance
    Gray
  • GetCarterGetCarter
    edited February 2017 Posts: 386
    As an aside, the way Savalas holds his cigarettes is weirdly awesome.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    GetCarter wrote: »
    As an aside, the way Savalas holds his cigarettes is weirdly awesome.

    I've always loved the way he holds his cigarette in particular scenes.
  • JamesBondKenyaJamesBondKenya Danny Boyle laughs to himself
    Posts: 2,730
    Roadphill wrote: »
    @j_w_pepper Cant agree with you on Skyfall my friend. There was so much I disliked about it.

    You are on the money for FYEO though. I dont think it is as good as The towering and majestic TSWLM but its a cracking film, and a nice change of pace for Moore. With a little bit of better direction and a nice Barry score (as opposed to the assualt on the ears Conti provided) it could have been a classic.

    Agreed fuck skyfall I waited for 4 years to get a shit bond movie at least we got spectre
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