Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited March 2017 Posts: 23,883
    GBF wrote: »
    That is fine and I appreciate your view. Just respect that other members don't like it as much as you do. I mean most action sequences in the franchise are great from a purely technical point of view. But that does not mean that everyone has to like the respective concept. There are quite many people who don't like the tank chase in GE or the volcano battle in YOLT, even though these sequences are certainly made very well and loved by the majority of Bond fans.
    I normally don't have a problem with views that are opposite to the majority of members or general convention. In fact, I welcome it. That's what makes this forum & life in general interesting.

    I have to admit that the pointed criticism of Bond smashing through drywall made me curious to revisit the film, and I'm glad I was able to answer the question of how he knew that he wouldn't hurt himself doing it.

    BTW, I don't like the GE tank chase and would have much preferred more time in the Archives. I wasn't aware that tanks could catch up to cars travelling at speed.
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,197
    bondjames wrote: »
    GBF wrote: »
    That is fine and I appreciate your view. Just respect that other members don't like it as much as you do. I mean most action sequences in the franchise are great from a purely technical point of view. But that does not mean that everyone has to like the respective concept. There are quite many people who don't like the tank chase in GE or the volcano battle in YOLT, even though these sequences are certainly made very well and loved by the majority of Bond fans.
    I normally don't have a problem with views that are opposite to the majority of members or general convention. In fact, I welcome it. That's what makes this forum & life in general interesting.

    I have to admit that the pointed criticism of Bond smashing through drywall made me curious to revisit the film, and I'm glad I was able to answer the question of how he knew that he wouldn't hurt himself doing it.

    BTW, I don't like the GE tank chase and would have much preferred more time in the Archives. I wasn't aware that tanks could catch up to cars travelling at speed.

    Well, actually I did not inted to refer to your quote but the one by @RC7 :-)
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited March 2017 Posts: 23,883
    GBF wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    GBF wrote: »
    That is fine and I appreciate your view. Just respect that other members don't like it as much as you do. I mean most action sequences in the franchise are great from a purely technical point of view. But that does not mean that everyone has to like the respective concept. There are quite many people who don't like the tank chase in GE or the volcano battle in YOLT, even though these sequences are certainly made very well and loved by the majority of Bond fans.
    I normally don't have a problem with views that are opposite to the majority of members or general convention. In fact, I welcome it. That's what makes this forum & life in general interesting.

    I have to admit that the pointed criticism of Bond smashing through drywall made me curious to revisit the film, and I'm glad I was able to answer the question of how he knew that he wouldn't hurt himself doing it.

    BTW, I don't like the GE tank chase and would have much preferred more time in the Archives. I wasn't aware that tanks could catch up to cars travelling at speed.

    Well, actually I did not inted to refer to your quote but the one by @RC7 :-)
    No worries. I was commenting generally and do appreciate the comments about CR, because it made me realize on a recent viewing that the Embassy sequence stretches the bounds of credibility a tad much. Bond somehow manages not to 'kill' anyone directly when he's in there, and that's difficult to do when you're in a gunfight with at least 20 armed men committed to taking you down. He's not Batman :))
  • JamesBondKenyaJamesBondKenya Danny Boyle laughs to himself
    Posts: 2,730
    RC7 wrote: »
    'CR is shit', translated = 'Look at me, I'm different'.

    That's a terribly narrow-minded approach, especially when I have given ample reasons behind why I don't like it. Perhaps you're in the same level as JamesBondKenya at school?

    It's okay I "leveled"down last month
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    Casino Royale is the kind of once-in-a-lifetime movie you can only make with a franchise as old as this one, because so much of the joy comes in how it riffs on our knowledge of everything that came before.

    Ten years after the release of Casino Royale, the James Bond franchise remains at a crossroads; today, it's not even clear whether Daniel Craig will play 007 again, or who might replace him if he doesn't. But whatever happens to Bond and the Daniel Craig era next, Casino Royale is a towering and singular accomplishment for the 007 franchise: the rare moment when a Hollywood studio actually took a gamble with everything it had, and won.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited March 2017 Posts: 23,883
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Casino Royale is the kind of once-in-a-lifetime movie you can only make with a franchise as old as this one, because so much of the joy comes in how it riffs on our knowledge of everything that came before.

    Ten years after the release of Casino Royale, the James Bond franchise remains at a crossroads; today, it's not even clear whether Daniel Craig will play 007 again, or who might replace him if he doesn't. But whatever happens to Bond and the Daniel Craig era next, Casino Royale is a towering and singular accomplishment for the 007 franchise: the rare moment when a Hollywood studio actually took a gamble with everything it had, and won.
    I agree that the film itself is a marvelous addition to the franchise, but it really wasn't as much of a risk as we think - more of a necessity.

    Nolan's Batman Begins had shown everyone how to do it and started the reboot era. It too had to follow a disaster (namely the fiasco known as Batman & Robin). Bourne & Powers had already shaken the genre up, and things could really never be the same again.

    The trajectory was therefore inevitable to some extent. Having said that, EON executed very well, with Campbell's help. Craig was key, but the entire effort was well above par.
  • RC7RC7
    edited March 2017 Posts: 10,512
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Casino Royale is a towering and singular accomplishment for the 007 franchise: the rare moment when a Hollywood studio actually took a gamble with everything it had, and won.

    Spot on.
    If their platitudinous but you can see the points/understand where I'm coming from, then by all means like the film, just don't shoot me down for pointing out it's flawed.

    'Largely platitudinous', not 'wholly'. Like I said, underneath the guff I'm sure there are genuine issues you have with it, and that's your prerogative, but the labouring of certain points and the absolute nature of them doesn't wash with me, hence my replies. If you're going to come out with stuff like, 'Vesper and Bond's relationship is one of the worst in the series' I'll shoot you down, because the flaw is primarily with your reading/reception of the film, not the film itself imo.

  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,197
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Casino Royale is the kind of once-in-a-lifetime movie you can only make with a franchise as old as this one, because so much of the joy comes in how it riffs on our knowledge of everything that came before.

    Ten years after the release of Casino Royale, the James Bond franchise remains at a crossroads; today, it's not even clear whether Daniel Craig will play 007 again, or who might replace him if he doesn't. But whatever happens to Bond and the Daniel Craig era next, Casino Royale is a towering and singular accomplishment for the 007 franchise: the rare moment when a Hollywood studio actually took a gamble with everything it had, and won.

    I agree that CR will be very positively remembered, no matter how the franchise will go on.... it is a very well made film that has a good story and good actors and will also age very well...

    However, I like CR - or maybe even the whole Craig era - more as a standalone adventure than as being part of the whole franchise.... Maybe that is because it breaks with some of the traditions... I don't know.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    GBF wrote: »
    However, I like CR - or maybe even the whole Craig era - more as a standalone adventure than as being part of the whole franchise.... Maybe that is because it breaks with some of the traditions... I don't know.
    I will always look at the Craig era as a standalone (or reboot) as well. I find it works better that way.
  • RoadphillRoadphill United Kingdom
    Posts: 984
    GBF wrote: »
    Roadphill wrote: »
    Another(possibly not that controversial) I think the series works best when there are regular shifts in tone.

    I firmly believe that two or three films in a row that demonstrate the same tone is too much. If you look at the Connery or even Moore era's, they ran the gamut of every type of Bond film.

    I'l give some examples

    FRWL-GF
    YOLT-OHMSS
    TMWGG-TSWLM
    MR-FYEO

    And these are all featuring the same actor in each shift, I think when we can go fun and spectacular to serious in a heartbeat, that is Bond. Too much of either is a bad thing.

    That has probably much to do with a shift towards another director....

    @GBF it may well do, but it worked regardless.
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,197
    Roadphill wrote: »
    GBF wrote: »
    Roadphill wrote: »
    Another(possibly not that controversial) I think the series works best when there are regular shifts in tone.

    I firmly believe that two or three films in a row that demonstrate the same tone is too much. If you look at the Connery or even Moore era's, they ran the gamut of every type of Bond film.

    I'l give some examples

    FRWL-GF
    YOLT-OHMSS
    TMWGG-TSWLM
    MR-FYEO

    And these are all featuring the same actor in each shift, I think when we can go fun and spectacular to serious in a heartbeat, that is Bond. Too much of either is a bad thing.

    That has probably much to do with a shift towards another director....

    @GBF it may well do, but it worked regardless.

    On the contrary, I guess that especially Brosnan suffered from a permanent change of the director. What if Campbell had made all Brosnan films?
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited March 2017 Posts: 23,883
    Roadphill wrote: »
    GBF wrote: »
    Roadphill wrote: »
    Another(possibly not that controversial) I think the series works best when there are regular shifts in tone.

    I firmly believe that two or three films in a row that demonstrate the same tone is too much. If you look at the Connery or even Moore era's, they ran the gamut of every type of Bond film.

    I'l give some examples

    FRWL-GF
    YOLT-OHMSS
    TMWGG-TSWLM
    MR-FYEO

    And these are all featuring the same actor in each shift, I think when we can go fun and spectacular to serious in a heartbeat, that is Bond. Too much of either is a bad thing.

    That has probably much to do with a shift towards another director....

    @GBF it may well do, but it worked regardless.
    OHMSS was Laz. I agree that it worked in your Connery & Moore examples, but both could do flippant Bond well. I think the more casual Bond is actually much harder to pull off than the more serious one actually because one step wrong and it can fall into pastiche and parody. The tolerance for error is smaller, at least these days, and I think it can only be done with a new actor, given how far down one direction the Craig era has taken us.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Referencing a comment on the previous page, I want to insert in here that I admire @JamesBondKenya . He came in here and took a lot of flack for his age and some of his broad statements, was chastised by many (including me), but rather than react petulantly or fleeing, he has adapted, taken constructive criticism and upped his game.
    +1. At the risk of inflating egos, I must say that the kid's on the ball.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    bondjames wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Referencing a comment on the previous page, I want to insert in here that I admire @JamesBondKenya . He came in here and took a lot of flack for his age and some of his broad statements, was chastised by many (including me), but rather than react petulantly or fleeing, he has adapted, taken constructive criticism and upped his game.
    +1. At the risk of inflating egos, I must say that the kid's on the ball.

    Ditto. Seems like a good kid to me (although didn't realise he was a kid).
  • RoadphillRoadphill United Kingdom
    Posts: 984
    bondjames wrote: »
    Roadphill wrote: »
    GBF wrote: »
    Roadphill wrote: »
    Another(possibly not that controversial) I think the series works best when there are regular shifts in tone.

    I firmly believe that two or three films in a row that demonstrate the same tone is too much. If you look at the Connery or even Moore era's, they ran the gamut of every type of Bond film.

    I'l give some examples

    FRWL-GF
    YOLT-OHMSS
    TMWGG-TSWLM
    MR-FYEO

    And these are all featuring the same actor in each shift, I think when we can go fun and spectacular to serious in a heartbeat, that is Bond. Too much of either is a bad thing.

    That has probably much to do with a shift towards another director....

    @GBF it may well do, but it worked regardless.
    OHMSS was Laz. I agree that it worked in your Connery & Moore examples, but both could do flippant Bond well. I think the more casual Bond is actually much harder to pull off than the more serious one actually because one step wrong and it can fall into pastiche and parody. The tolerance for error is smaller, at least these days, and I think it can only be done with a new actor, given how far down one direction the Craig era has taken us.

    Apologies @bondjames I wasnt very clear, but I merely meant to cite Moore and Connery as the best examples, I didnt mean every film I mentioned was theirs. My fault for not being clear enough. I agree now that to see Craig do a TSWLM or YOLT style film would be jarring now, but only because he is 4 films in and they have all followed the same tone. If they had chose this option after, say QOS, it probably would have worked just fine.

    @GBF Brosnan probably isnt the best example of this working, but I dont think his films varied wildly in tone either, at least until DAD. More to the point, I think the script, at least in the good old days, precipitated a change of tone rather than the director. And that was probably dictated by Cubby and Harry Saltzman to the writers.

  • My response to any CR naysayers is to state that when that picture came along, the Broz Bonds had de-evolved into cliches and at the very least, mediocre filmmaking. The Bourne films had trounced DAD on a creative level, and EON wisely rebooted into a film that is one of the best Bond films ever made and a picture that honestly trounces everything in between CR and OHMSS.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    My response to any CR naysayers is to state that when that picture came along, the Broz Bonds had de-evolved into cliches and at the very least, mediocre filmmaking. The Bourne films had trounced DAD on a creative level and EON wisely rebooted into a film that is one of the best Bond films ever made and a picture that honestly trounces everything in between CR and OHMSS.

    The problem is while they did reboot, they didn't need to do it in such a drastic way. There was no reason that it couldn't open up with the gunbarrel and feature the Bond theme throughout. As for the films that CR trounces, I would say 6; A View To A Kill, Skyfall, Goldfinger, Moonraker, Diamonds Are Forever & Quantum Of Solace.
  • JamesBondKenyaJamesBondKenya Danny Boyle laughs to himself
    Posts: 2,730
    RC7 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Referencing a comment on the previous page, I want to insert in here that I admire @JamesBondKenya . He came in here and took a lot of flack for his age and some of his broad statements, was chastised by many (including me), but rather than react petulantly or fleeing, he has adapted, taken constructive criticism and upped his game.
    +1. At the risk of inflating egos, I must say that the kid's on the ball.

    Ditto. Seems like a good kid to me (although didn't realise he was a kid).

    Hey guys thanks a lot, I will say that almost everyone is delightful in these forums and has been very nice and not judgemental. How old are all of you
  • edited March 2017 Posts: 19,339
    47....enjoy being 15 kiddo !!

    No,but seriously ,you do ask genuine questions rather than being a 'fan boy',now that you have calmed down on the swearing ;)

    You are a welcome addition to the forum,and Bond needs to get to Kenya and Africa IMO !!
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    I was 15 when Casino Royale came out. How time flies.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,134
    My response to any CR naysayers is to state that when that picture came along, the Broz Bonds had de-evolved into cliches and at the very least, mediocre filmmaking. The Bourne films had trounced DAD on a creative level, and EON wisely rebooted into a film that is one of the best Bond films ever made and a picture that honestly trounces everything in between CR and OHMSS.

    They did a great job with CR, I agree with you on that. Maybe it was a tad too drastic, but a great job nonetheless.

    If we're talking about best Bond film since 1969, I still prefer TLD, LTK and GE over CR though. Maybe even FYEO.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,041
    How old are all of you
    When I was 15, DAF came out. Trouble was, it was rated "16".
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    RC7 wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Casino Royale is a towering and singular accomplishment for the 007 franchise: the rare moment when a Hollywood studio actually took a gamble with everything it had, and won.

    Spot on.
    If their platitudinous but you can see the points/understand where I'm coming from, then by all means like the film, just don't shoot me down for pointing out it's flawed.

    'Largely platitudinous', not 'wholly'. Like I said, underneath the guff I'm sure there are genuine issues you have with it, and that's your prerogative, but the labouring of certain points and the absolute nature of them doesn't wash with me, hence my replies. If you're going to come out with stuff like, 'Vesper and Bond's relationship is one of the worst in the series' I'll shoot you down, because the flaw is primarily with your reading/reception of the film, not the film itself imo.

    Not quite. The issues that lie with that "relationship" I've documented here quite elaborately, and couldn't be bothered going into detail yet again. But I suppose it is my prerogative not to buy a relationship that suddenly jumps from loathing to love, flips from psychoanalysis to sentimentality, and then to an ineffective, grandiose set piece that eventually claims her, without any development in between.

    Don't assume there's a flaw with my reading of the film because you enjoy it.

    Loathing to love? She obviously wants his balls from the get go. On the flip, Bond can't wait to break through the facade of frigidity. The sexual tension in that train scene is palpable. The spark is there from the second they meet.

    From that point on there's a fantastic dynamic established whereby Bond is constantly preoccupied by this dynamic, beautiful woman who refuses to fall at his feet and likewise, Vesper is conflicted by her interest in this exceptional man and her duty.

    It's Vesper's inability to reconcile those opposing forces that leads to the denouement and a truly emotional and incredibly impactful scene, where Craig cradles her dead body.

    I don't buy any of your negativity.
  • The Vesper/Bond relationship in CR is one of the more interesting and complicated in the series. There's plenty of lousy of mediocre and vacuous bond/women set ups in this series, and I'm looking with at MWTGG, MR, etc.
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    The Vesper/Bond relationship in CR is one of the more interesting and complicated in the series. There's plenty of lousy of mediocre and vacuous bond/women set ups in this series, and I'm looking with at MWTGG, MR, etc.

    This is more of an accurate assessment than a controversial opinion.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited March 2017 Posts: 23,883
    The Vesper/Bond relationship in CR is one of the more interesting and complicated in the series. There's plenty of lousy of mediocre and vacuous bond/women set ups in this series, and I'm looking with at MWTGG, MR, etc.
    I'm frankly disappointed that the depth and complexity of Goodnight's long, almost obsessive yearning for Bond was not apparent to more viewers.

    The same goes for the charms of Goodhead, who was initially dismissed by Bond as just 'a woman', before he learned to appreciate the extent of her numerous capabilities, including her Vassar fight training. After all, they shared an out of earth experience together. That's bound to have some meaning.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    bondjames wrote: »
    The Vesper/Bond relationship in CR is one of the more interesting and complicated in the series. There's plenty of lousy of mediocre and vacuous bond/women set ups in this series, and I'm looking with at MWTGG, MR, etc.
    I'm frankly disappointed that the depth and complexity of Goodnight's long, almost obsessive yearning for Bond was not apparent to more viewers.

    The same goes for the charms of Goodhead, who was initially dismissed by Bond as just 'a woman', before he learned to appreciate the extent of her numerous capabilities, including her Vassar fight training. After all, they shared an out of earth experience together. That's bound to have some meaning.

    Excellent.
  • Posts: 11,189
    Birdleson wrote: »
    When I was 15 Jimmy Carter was President of the United States.

    I wasn't even born when Jimmy Carter was president, I was a Regan baby.
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,197
    When I was 15 TND was the new Bond film... and it was rated 16 in Germany )-:
  • Agent_99Agent_99 enjoys a spirited ride as much as the next girl
    Posts: 3,176
    Did you go anyway?

    Probably the most illegal thing I have ever done was to go to an 18 when I was 17 and a half. (It was 'Léon' and it was so worth it.)
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