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Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    I agree with you both.
  • cwl007cwl007 England
    Posts: 611
    They should have made the PTS finish with the escape from the window, just made that bank scene a little better. I quite like that scene actually, just make it a little longer with better dialogue.
    Then start the film proper with the King murder etc.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Yes, even I like that bank scene.
  • cwl007cwl007 England
    Posts: 611
    I've said recently in another thread that when I first saw TWINE I thought they had dropped the PTS because that sequence it is so bloody long. I was quite relieved when Garbage started playing , the only time in my life I can honestly say that!
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    cwl007 wrote: »
    They should have made the PTS finish with the escape from the window, just made that bank scene a little better. I quite like that scene actually, just make it a little longer with better dialogue.
    Then start the film proper with the King murder etc.

    That was the original idea. But Apted felt the Bank scene wasn't grand enough.
  • BondAficionadoBondAficionado Former IMDBer
    Posts: 1,889
    suavejmf wrote: »
    cwl007 wrote: »
    They should have made the PTS finish with the escape from the window, just made that bank scene a little better. I quite like that scene actually, just make it a little longer with better dialogue.
    Then start the film proper with the King murder etc.

    That was the original idea. But Apted felt the Bank scene wasn't grand enough.
    Not exactly. I read they decided to change the PTS length because the test audience didn't respond well to it.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    BondAficionado wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    cwl007 wrote: »
    They should have made the PTS finish with the escape from the window, just made that bank scene a little better. I quite like that scene actually, just make it a little longer with better dialogue.
    Then start the film proper with the King murder etc.

    That was the original idea. But Apted felt the Bank scene wasn't grand enough.
    Not exactly. I read they decided to change the PTS length because the test audience didn't respond well to it.
    I'm not surprised. Lengthening it didn't help though, but rather caused me further discomfort.
  • thelivingroyalethelivingroyale
    Posts: 12,837
    I wouldn't care if we never saw Moneypenny in another Bond film again. When they do try to make the character more interesting it just comes across as forced and unnecessary (her being a field agent in SF) but her usual role is pretty played out. I was sort of annoyed at first when they got rid of her just because she'd been around for so long, and I thought the reason that I never liked Harris in the role was because her chemistry with Craig seemed forced and wooden, but the more I think about it the more I think that it's just the the character that's forced. I think that, while I didn't realise it at the time, not having the character around has made me realise how unnecessary she actually is. I'd be happy if she had a role similar to Tanner in the old films: she's there, sometimes, but mostly as a background presence. We don't need to see her and Bond flirting every single film (I quite liked her in TND for this reason actually, she was there but due to how serious the threat was there was never time for Bond to stop outside M's office for the mandatory conversation).

    Equally, I'd be happy if Bond never ordered a martini shaken not stirred again. I liked how they played with it in the Craig era but it's dull now and I'm sick of the spins that the media put on it (if I ever read "the new Bond film will leave you both shaken and stirred!!!!" again I might have to kill myself). I think it'd be cooler to have more variety in what he drinks, like in the novels.

    I don't think Die Another Day is the worst Bond film (it's not even my least favourite). TMWTGG is worse in every concieveable way.

    I prefer Craig's last two to his first two by a really large margin. CR I enjoy but it's a bit bloated and melodramatic imo. QoS is not some underrated classic. It's a rushed pretentious mess, a misjudged attempt at a direct sequel that tries so hard to be so many things at once that it often forgets to be a Bond film. Spectre on the other hand is a fantastic Bond film that's been really unfairly criticised since it came out. Formula driven Bond but done in a fresh, clever, modern way with everyone (bar Newman) firing on all cylinders ala TSWLM and GE. I also really like SF. Not as much as I did when I first saw it (the plot holes are really annoying on multiple watches, it's irritatingly pretentious and snarky, and the plot is pretty much just a TWINE retread) but it still holds up really well. Severine is my favourite Bond girl, Silva one of the best villains, Craig and Dench are fantastic, the cinematography is beautiful and it's hard not to remember just how exciting it was at the time (with the 50th and the longer gap).
  • Mathis1Mathis1
    Posts: 7,431
    BondAficionado is correct, the test audience wanted something more spectacular, so the titles were shifted. I remember watching TWINE for the first time, and nearly forgot the titles hadn't started yet, because it was so long! Theres something to be said for the pre-titles being short and snappy, rather than being a mini Bond movie!
    Cant agree re LTK pts being weak, I think the action with the helicopter is spectacular, and not TV like at all! Even Christopher Nolan homages it in his opening for The Dark Knight Rises!
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited March 2017 Posts: 11,189
    The manner in which certain shots are staged both during and after the PTS don't look very impressive today, this point was picked up on a few weeks ago but the way Dalton is filmed in some of the early shots at the wedding make the film look visually flat. It's more difficult to imagine the likes of Connery or Craig being shot in the same way.

    1989_licence_to_kill_10.jpg

    LTKMorningDress3.png

    I think there's a lot of decent stuff later in the film and the tanker chase is the highlight, but the opening half hour isn't that good and hasn't aged very well.
  • JamesBondKenyaJamesBondKenya Danny Boyle laughs to himself
    Posts: 2,730
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    BondAficionado is correct, the test audience wanted something more spectacular, so the titles were shifted. I remember watching TWINE for the first time, and nearly forgot the titles hadn't started yet, because it was so long! Theres something to be said for the pre-titles being short and snappy, rather than being a mini Bond movie!
    Cant agree re LTK pts being weak, I think the action with the helicopter is spectacular, and not TV like at all! Even Christopher Nolan homages it in his opening for The Dark Knight Rises!

    It would be like if qos had the pts after the roof chase like, way toooooo long and two different actions scenes. They should have just made the first one more exciting also apparently theirs supposed to be like 30 min of deleted stuff from twine I heard. Imagine how much more boring that film would be
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,124
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    BondAficionado is correct, the test audience wanted something more spectacular, so the titles were shifted. I remember watching TWINE for the first time, and nearly forgot the titles hadn't started yet, because it was so long! Theres something to be said for the pre-titles being short and snappy, rather than being a mini Bond movie!
    Cant agree re LTK pts being weak, I think the action with the helicopter is spectacular, and not TV like at all! Even Christopher Nolan homages it in his opening for The Dark Knight Rises!

    Test audiences don't get it right all the time.
  • Some_Kind_Of_HeroSome_Kind_Of_Hero
    edited March 2017 Posts: 6,844
    Must disagree with opinions on both the LTK and TWINE PTS here.

    While I see where people are coming from with calling LTK overall a film made with a "for television" aesthetic, the PTS perfectly encapsulates the idea of a mini-film within the film opener. We get a nice succinct mission with Bond stepping out of his usual role, an introduction to our core cast of villains as well as the secondary girl and Bond's bud Leiter, fantastic action music from Kamen, Lupe's lover getting his heart cut out, a shootout on the ground, and aerial stunts. Do I prefer TLD's PTS overall? Sure. But LTK's falls just outside the range of "all-time best" for me.

    TWINE's extended PTS works perfectly precisely for thinking outside the formula and subverting audience expectations to exhilarating results. The bank opener is a fantastic scene on its own, wonderfully fun, but as Apted saw himself, too brief for a fully satisfying PTS in the age of bungee-jumping off dams and blowing up mountain-top arms bazaars. Carrying on per usual in MI6 HQ without the main titles, for all of how brief it lasted, was a rather undeliberately ingenious way to shake things up, leading up to that moment Bond and audience alike realize something foul is afoot and that the PTS has only just begun. How often do we get this kind of ridiculously fun formula subversion nowadays? Not nearly often enough. The Q-Boat is a brilliant gadget vehicle and the Thames chase that follows proves one of the series' best action sequences, sealing the deal. Far from the worst, TWINE's PTS is in my opinion the series' very best opener.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    edited March 2017 Posts: 40,976
    I really like FYEO, but I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't love to see Young's take on the novel.

    Really enjoyed 'Wait Until Dark.'
  • Some_Kind_Of_HeroSome_Kind_Of_Hero
    Posts: 6,844
    Wow, I didn't know that about Young either. FYEO is a fine film and all, but Young I think really could have made it one of the best. I think he would have stripped the silly right off FYEO's core Flemingesque center and delivered Thunderball meets FRWL in the 80s with snow.

    Also, yes, Wait Until Dark is a great film.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Some_Kind_Of_Hero wrote: »
    Wow, I didn't know that about Young either. FYEO is a fine film and all, but Young I think really could have made it one of the best. I think he would have stripped the silly right off FYEO's core Flemingesque center and delivered Thunderball meets FRWL in the 80s with snow.
    My thoughts exactly.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Young, Hamilton and Gilbert were all offered FYEO. I don t know in which order, but my guess is they asked Gilbert first as the natural choice. He had done the last two, and was supposed to do FYEO in 1979 after all.
  • cwl007cwl007 England
    Posts: 611
    I didn't know that either, good find. FYEO is one of my favourites because of it's down to earth nature and attempts at 'gritty'. FRWL is top 5 for me, so Young directing FYEO would have been amazing. Imagine the style he would have brought to NSNA as well, despite the budget( and consequently cheap looking aspect of that film) he would have found stylistic ways to make that movie.
    I wish I had a TARDIS.
  • thelivingroyalethelivingroyale
    edited March 2017 Posts: 12,837
    Some_Kind_Of_Hero wrote: »
    Must disagree with opinions on both the LTK and TWINE PTS here.

    While I see where people are coming from with calling LTK overall a film made with a "for television" aesthetic, the PTS perfectly encapsulates the idea of a mini-film within the film opener. We get a nice succinct mission with Bond stepping out of his usual role, an introduction to our core cast of villains as well as the secondary girl and Bond's bud Leiter, fantastic action music from Kamen, Lupe's lover getting his heart cut out, a shootout on the ground, and aerial stunts. Do I prefer TLD's PTS overall? Sure. But LTK's falls just outside the range of "all-time best" for me.

    TWINE's extended PTS works perfectly precisely for thinking outside the formula and subverting audience expectations to exhilarating results. The bank opener is a fantastic scene on its own, wonderfully fun, but as Apted saw himself, too brief for a fully satisfying PTS in the age of bungee-jumping off dams and blowing up mountain-top arms bazaars. Carrying on per usual in MI6 HQ without the main titles, for all of how brief it lasted, was a rather undeliberately ingenious way to shake things up, leading up to that moment Bond and audience alike realize something foul is afoot and that the PTS has only just begun. How often do we get this kind of ridiculously fun formula subversion nowadays? Not nearly often enough. The Q-Boat is a brilliant gadget vehicle and the Thames chase that follows proves one of the series' best action sequences, sealing the deal. Far from the worst, TWINE's PTS is in my opinion the series' very best opener.

    Great post, agree with all of that. I think it's surprising how much stick the Brosnan era gets for being formula driven because there's quite a few times where they manage to shake things up in interesting ways (Bond being captured and imprisoned in DAD comes to mind, you'd expect him to just ride off into the sunset and move on to a whole different story for the rest of film but instead for the first time in 20 films he actually gets caught and properly imprisoned, and TWINE is full of cool, trope defying ideas: the BMW getting sawed in half before Bond can really use it is another good example, and while Elektra being a villain is pretty obvious, Renard turning out to just be a pawn and her being the true mastermind was a brilliant subversion).
  • MrBondMrBond Station S
    Posts: 2,044
    Peter Hunt was also offered FYEO but turned it down due to other commitments.
    He also turned NSNA down, but out of loyalty for Cubby.
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,124
    But adding the boat chase to the PTS of TWINE was pretty much to stick to formula, or what was perceived as such by Apted: making something bigger and grand. Two movies later CR showed us you could make a much smaller scale PTS that could be very effective.
  • JamesBondKenyaJamesBondKenya Danny Boyle laughs to himself
    Posts: 2,730
    This is probably controversial

    I think the best car chase in the whole series is the qos one
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 4,009
    JamesBondKenya wrote: »
    This is probably controversial

    I think the best car chase in the whole series is the qos one

    I think I'd plum for the Citroen chase in FYEO as my favourite but the chase in QoS is definitely up there.

    It's a really fast and brutal car chase with razor sharp editing and a great climax when Bond fires before the pursuers do. Love it!
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,124
    I think Professor Dent is one of the greatest villains of the series.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,041
    This thread is probably good enough for the following as any other: When I finally re-activated my home cinema tonight, after about two months of renovating it without watching even a single movie from among my 2,000+, I chose MOONRAKER. My wife was like "Huh?", but I enjoyed it immensely (and I think she did too). This is one Bond film that once was at the rock bottom of my list but it keeps creeping up the ladder with each viewing. Great villain, great dialogue, Ken Adam's last set (and what a set), one of John Barry's best Bond scores...the second remake of YOLT, but so what? Total enjoyment.
  • barryt007barryt007
    Posts: 19,339
    What a waste....
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    This thread is probably good enough for the following as any other: When I finally re-activated my home cinema tonight, after about two months of renovating it without watching even a single movie from among my 2,000+, I chose MOONRAKER. My wife was like "Huh?", but I enjoyed it immensely (and I think she did too). This is one Bond film that once was at the rock bottom of my list but it keeps creeping up the ladder with each viewing. Great villain, great dialogue, Ken Adam's last set (and what a set), one of John Barry's best Bond scores...the second remake of YOLT, but so what? Total enjoyment.
    +1. I'm reassessing it positively with every new viewing as well. It's great fun. Same goes for DAF.
  • BMW_with_missilesBMW_with_missiles All the usual refinements.
    Posts: 3,000
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    This thread is probably good enough for the following as any other: When I finally re-activated my home cinema tonight, after about two months of renovating it without watching even a single movie from among my 2,000+, I chose MOONRAKER. My wife was like "Huh?", but I enjoyed it immensely (and I think she did too). This is one Bond film that once was at the rock bottom of my list but it keeps creeping up the ladder with each viewing. Great villain, great dialogue, Ken Adam's last set (and what a set), one of John Barry's best Bond scores...the second remake of YOLT, but so what? Total enjoyment.

    I've always loved MR. I was surprised when I first found out that it gets a lot of flack among the fans. It seems like many more people have a positive opinion of it lately.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I believe I speak for many originals ( @chrisisall , @BeatlesSansEarmuffs ) when I say that was a dark time.
    It was for me!
    8-|
  • Major_BoothroydMajor_Boothroyd Republic of Isthmus
    edited March 2017 Posts: 2,722
    .
    Birdleson wrote: »
    It is easier to accept MR now, but for those of us who saw it in the theatre in 1979, as a follow-up to the beloved TSWLM, it was devastating. No PPK, double-take pigeon, Jaws turns full Looney Toons...horrendous. We had no idea that things would turn around, the films had been getting more or less progressively looser and sillier. For all we knew it was going to get worse. I can enjoy it now, as a curio...an oddity, a fun romp that sticks out, like DAD, but I couldn't get excited for Bond for a few decades after it's release. It damaged the franchise that much. I believe I speak for many originals ( @chrisisall , @BeatlesSansEarmuffs ) when I say that was a dark time.

    This is the feeling I had when I was watching Die Another Day in my late-20s. I'd been a Bond fan for 15 years and I remember sitting there in the cinema (at the national premiere no less!) thinking to myself... 'well, I guess this is what Bond films are now...'
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