Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • Major_BoothroydMajor_Boothroyd Republic of Isthmus
    Posts: 2,722
    bondjames wrote: »
    I think it's clear Tom Mankiewicz has disdain for women in the Bond world. Diamonds are forever, Live and let die and man with the golden gun contain women who are either stupid, naive, abused and almost all of them are incompetent
    I get your point, but the same could perhaps apply to SF (the most successful film of the recent past) in some ways. That film meets all these attributes and then some (double crosser in the case of M).

    I wouldn't say that in M and Moneypenny's case. I think they were taking calculated risks. Some of which didn't come out in their favour. As for Moneypenny she also saved bond's life in the machau casino and came to M's aid in the courtroom scene - two examples of excelling at her job. But also Mankiewicz uses Rosie and Goodnight's ineptitude and complete lack of strength of character for laughs. They are exclusively inept agents and used ostensibly as subjects of derision.

    @Major_Boothroyd, the real victim of SF (and the Craig era as a whole, really) is Tanner. He's one of the most inept characters we've had that is written to be seen as foolish, uncoordinated and weak in direct comparison to everything Bond does. Sometimes I feel bad for old Tanner, but the moment he left M's side when she needed him in SF I had it with him. So much for loyalty, but at least Mallory was there to save her, even though they were practically strangers.

    Tanner should have committed hara kiri after letting M be driven off by an unseen person at the end of the courtroom shoot out. It was the only honourable thing to do. im wondering if they toyed with the idea of him being a double agent - for quantum particularly as he was anonymous enough in QOS, by Skyfall he was clearly in Bond's corner so it wouldn't have worked as well.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    bondjames wrote: »
    I think it's clear Tom Mankiewicz has disdain for women in the Bond world. Diamonds are forever, Live and let die and man with the golden gun contain women who are either stupid, naive, abused and almost all of them are incompetent
    I get your point, but the same could perhaps apply to SF (the most successful film of the recent past) in some ways. That film meets all these attributes and then some (double crosser in the case of M).

    I wouldn't say that in M and Moneypenny's case. I think they were taking calculated risks. Some of which didn't come out in their favour. As for Moneypenny she also saved bond's life in the machau casino and came to M's aid in the courtroom scene - two examples of excelling at her job. But also Mankiewicz uses Rosie and Goodnight's ineptitude and complete lack of strength of character for laughs. They are exclusively inept agents and used ostensibly as subjects of derision.

    @Major_Boothroyd, the real victim of SF (and the Craig era as a whole, really) is Tanner. He's one of the most inept characters we've had that is written to be seen as foolish, uncoordinated and weak in direct comparison to everything Bond does. Sometimes I feel bad for old Tanner, but the moment he left M's side when she needed him in SF I had it with him. So much for loyalty, but at least Mallory was there to save her, even though they were practically strangers.

    Tanner should have committed hara kiri after letting M be driven off by an unseen person at the end of the courtroom shoot out. It was the only honourable thing to do. im wondering if they toyed with the idea of him being a double agent - for quantum particularly as he was anonymous enough in QOS, by Skyfall he was clearly in Bond's corner so it wouldn't have worked as well.

    @Major_Boothroyd, a script draft of SP did have Tanner as a traitor, and it did end with him committing suicide. I am sure that after Fiennes told them to piss off after trying to make M a traitor, Tanner was next in line for being the mole.
  • Major_BoothroydMajor_Boothroyd Republic of Isthmus
    Posts: 2,722
    bondjames wrote: »
    I think it's clear Tom Mankiewicz has disdain for women in the Bond world. Diamonds are forever, Live and let die and man with the golden gun contain women who are either stupid, naive, abused and almost all of them are incompetent
    I get your point, but the same could perhaps apply to SF (the most successful film of the recent past) in some ways. That film meets all these attributes and then some (double crosser in the case of M).

    I wouldn't say that in M and Moneypenny's case. I think they were taking calculated risks. Some of which didn't come out in their favour. As for Moneypenny she also saved bond's life in the machau casino and came to M's aid in the courtroom scene - two examples of excelling at her job. But also Mankiewicz uses Rosie and Goodnight's ineptitude and complete lack of strength of character for laughs. They are exclusively inept agents and used ostensibly as subjects of derision.

    @Major_Boothroyd, the real victim of SF (and the Craig era as a whole, really) is Tanner. He's one of the most inept characters we've had that is written to be seen as foolish, uncoordinated and weak in direct comparison to everything Bond does. Sometimes I feel bad for old Tanner, but the moment he left M's side when she needed him in SF I had it with him. So much for loyalty, but at least Mallory was there to save her, even though they were practically strangers.

    Tanner should have committed hara kiri after letting M be driven off by an unseen person at the end of the courtroom shoot out. It was the only honourable thing to do. im wondering if they toyed with the idea of him being a double agent - for quantum particularly as he was anonymous enough in QOS, by Skyfall he was clearly in Bond's corner so it wouldn't have worked as well.

    @Major_Boothroyd, a script draft of SP did have Tanner as a traitor, and it did end with him committing suicide. I am sure that after Fiennes told them to piss off after trying to make M a traitor, Tanner was next in line for being the mole.

    Ah - then I must have heard this news somewhere before and misremembered it. On reflection, It seems a pretty obvious kind of option for the script to take - what with all the double crossing in QOS and the nature of the C character in SP. Would have been a mistake doing it probably and certainly with Fiennes' M. That would have taken some exceptional exposition to make that work (it's so telegraphed with Denbigh as to border on pointless.)
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    edited March 2017 Posts: 5,131
    bondjames wrote: »
    I agree that they should have taken the XXX scenario further @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7, although I can fully understand the forgiveness part too. Moore kills that scene when he's sweating it after the champagne cork pops. I think any woman would forgive the guy then. Only Moore could pull that off imho. The lovable Bond.

    Barbara Bach is a weak actress though. Far worse than the usual distain for Talisa Soto on here. Bach's best feature is her cleavage, but the acting talent isn't there at all.
  • Posts: 19,339
    suavejmf wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I agree that they should have taken the XXX scenario further @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7, although I can fully understand the forgiveness part too. Moore kills that scene when he's sweating it after the champagne cork pops. I think any woman would forgive the guy then. Only Moore could pull that off imho. The lovable Bond.

    Barbara Bach is a weak acrtress though. Far worse than the usual distain for Talisa Soto on here. Bach's best feature is his cleavage, but the acting talent isn't there at all.

    I wonder who else was considered for her role.

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited March 2017 Posts: 23,883
    @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7, I can understand people not feeling sympathy for Silva, given he is a mass indiscriminate murderer, but somewhat shamefully, I do. I truly put that down to Bardem's performance, which resonated with me emotionally. Life is, as you say, full of grays and no one is a saint in this genre (most are in fact killers, even if they can justify their kills). I can appreciate how something snaps in a man who is tortured for months by the Chinese, and who then turns to the dark side in search of retribution (which he eventually was unable to deliver at a critical moment - perhaps due to his morality coming to the surface). These are all loners after all - which are the type who can be 'turned'. Ironically, he went to the dark side because of it, whereas Bond didn't in DAD (despite being suspected of betrayal by Dench M!).

    By the way, that's one more brilliant instance of SF taking a scenario that came before in a Bond film and flipping it on its head (as I said before somewhere, SF as an anniversary film is made up almost entirely of prior scenes brilliantly re-imagined - and it's great to keep coming across new instances like this every time I think about the film).

    Let's put it this way: I sympathized far more with Silva than I did Elektra, and the reason is primarily due to Bardem.

    I fully agree about respecting the Bond series for not giving into PC lunacy. That's what keeps it different from the rest of the rubbish out there these days. As I said elsewhere, if we start seeing teenage (or under-aged looking) heroines in Bond films (another thing that seems to be fashionable these days, perhaps to cater to the Asian market) I'll lose it.
    suavejmf wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I agree that they should have taken the XXX scenario further @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7, although I can fully understand the forgiveness part too. Moore kills that scene when he's sweating it after the champagne cork pops. I think any woman would forgive the guy then. Only Moore could pull that off imho. The lovable Bond.

    Barbara Bach is a weak actress though. Far worse than the usual distain for Talisa Soto on here. Bach's best feature is her cleavage, but the acting talent isn't there at all.
    I agree that acting is not Bach's strong suit, but disagree on her being worse than Soto. She was a major player in TSWLM and the film is better for it. Soto was secondary in LTK and still couldn't deliver simple lines or act. While essentially monotone, Bach had some great moments (when Bond is checking out Naomi for instance, in the Lotus, on the slow boat from Egypt, in the truck when Jaws is around & when she confronts Bond on Sergei Barsov).

    I agree that her best physical attribute was amply (ehem) showcased in that black dress though.
  • Posts: 19,339
    I bet Ringo Starr has bashed those 2 drums with his drumstick a few times,the lucky git !!
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    @bondjames, the next time I put in SF I'll have to examine it from your perspective and see if I can engage sympathy. One of the interesting things about Silva that we never actually find anything out about (or much about him at all, really) is his past. He strikes me as an orphan who never knew true guardianship, so when he felt a part of something like MI6 underneath M's tutelage he felt like he could do no wrong and had a place. When things turned, he then snapped out of shock, and came back with a rage so passionate it could only be the kind felt for one you used to care for. I think this is also backed up by how eerily child-like Silva is towards M at times, like he's a kid lost and looking for something he's not even sure he can ever find. The maternal symbolism is a bit much, but drives that point home too. He feels like an orphan who finally found a home, lost it, then broke down and became forlorn again with only revenge to brew inside him.

    It's never outright said Silva is an orphan, but because M tells Bond that orphans are often the best recruits and how Silva acts towards M makes me think that he is one too. It would make sense, as the film goes a long way towards beating you over the head that Silva and Bond are doppelgangers of sorts, just twisted versions of the other with Bond representing the "what-if" version of Silva who could've learned from his mistakes and become a good man.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited March 2017 Posts: 23,883
    What you describe is precisely what I feel when I watch SF @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7. To a tee in fact. MI6 was Silva's home. M was his surrogate mother. Just like Bond. However, he took her mistake (and I think she showed some level of guilt when she turned and explained the situation to Bond) personally, and the lesson is that it is a fine line. Those with responsibility must use it carefully. Trust is paramount in this business - in fact it's everything. Once that's broken, game over given the stakes at play.

    I've always felt that way about the film, which is why the retrofit of Silva into Blofeld's plans in SP feels so hollow and idiotic to me. It is also why I subconsciously choose to ignore it whenever I view SF.
  • Posts: 19,339
    bondjames wrote: »
    What you describe is precisely what I feel when I watch SF @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7. To a tee in fact. MI6 was Silva's home. M was his surrogate mother. Just like Bond. However, he took her mistake (and I think she showed some level of guilt when she turned and explained the situation to Bond) personally, and the lesson is that it is a fine line. Those with responsibility must use it carefully. Trust is paramount in this business - in fact it's everything. Once that's broken, game over given the stakes at play.

    I've always felt that way about the film, which is why the retrofit of Silva into Blofeld's plans in SP feels so hollow and idiotic to me. It is also why I subconsciously choose to ignore it whenever I view SF.

    Same here...I have always seen SF as an independent,stand-alone film,and will continue to do so .
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    At the risk of sounding pedantic I never got the impression Silva was MI6, merely an agent working under M, or simply Mansfield as she was likely known at the time, in HK. Other than that the symbolism is as suggested. They're both two sides of the same coin; the two offspring, both left to die, both devastated by the actions of their 'mother' figure. One chooses destruction, the other resurrection.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    Birdleson wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I agree that they should have taken the XXX scenario further @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7, although I can fully understand the forgiveness part too. Moore kills that scene when he's sweating it after the champagne cork pops. I think any woman would forgive the guy then. Only Moore could pull that off imho. The lovable Bond.

    Barbara Bach is a weak actress though. Far worse than the usual distain for Talisa Soto on here. Bach's best feature is her cleavage, but the acting talent isn't there at all.

    Far worse? I'd put them on a par. The difference tis that Gilbert was able to work around Bach's deficiencies o such a deft degree that her atrociousness does not effect the film, nor even come to the attention of the average viewer. LTK seems to stop dead still when Soto delivers one of her lines.

    Spot on.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    edited March 2017 Posts: 8,400
    LTK has by far the worst couple of Bond girls in the series.
  • edited March 2017 Posts: 11,189
    LTK has by far the worst couple of Bond girls in the series.

    I'm not sure I'd call them the worst but I do think all three main women (including Della) in LTK are underwhelming, lightweight actresses.

    My biggest change of opinion has been with Della/Pricilla Barnes . She seemed little more than a ditzy blonde.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,400
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    LTK has by far the worst couple of Bond girls in the series.

    I'm not sure I'd call them the worst but I do think all three main women (including Della) in LTK are underwhelming, lightweight actresses.

    I completely forgot about Della.
  • BMW_with_missilesBMW_with_missiles All the usual refinements.
    Posts: 3,000
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    LTK has by far the worst couple of Bond girls in the series.

    I'm not sure I'd call them the worst but I do think all three main women (including Della) in LTK are underwhelming, lightweight actresses.

    I completely forgot about Della.

    By and large I've forgotten LTK as a whole. I watched it once and never had any desire to go back.
  • edited March 2017 Posts: 11,189
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    LTK has by far the worst couple of Bond girls in the series.

    I'm not sure I'd call them the worst but I do think all three main women (including Della) in LTK are underwhelming, lightweight actresses.

    I completely forgot about Della.

    By and large I've forgotten LTK as a whole. I watched it once and never had any desire to go back.

    It's funny how this film seems so divisive. Like I've said before, it used to be in my top 5 but then it fell to mid table. I think a big issue with it is that several characters who play small but key roles in the film's plot are poorly cast and/or portrayed (Sharkey, Killifer, Della, Lupe and even Pam and Felix). Characters who are meant to drive Dalton's actions throughout the film are little more than stereotypes.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 4,016
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    LTK has by far the worst couple of Bond girls in the series.

    I'm not sure I'd call them the worst but I do think all three main women (including Della) in LTK are underwhelming, lightweight actresses.

    I completely forgot about Della.

    By and large I've forgotten LTK as a whole. I watched it once and never had any desire to go back.

    Yeah, its not one I watch very often and when I do actually watch it I remember why I don't watch it very often.
  • Posts: 11,189
    What was your reaction to Dalton leaving @LeonardPine out of curiosity?
  • Posts: 463
    I think it's funny that thinking LTK is better is a controversial opinion. First time I ever seen either of them, I watched both of them back to back and LTK has always been my preferred outing. TLD completely drags to a halt when Bond arrives in Afghanistan. Not to mention that LTK seems far more tailored to Dalton's darker portrayal of the character. I don't think he does the comedy bits all that well, and they stick out like a sore thumb in TLD, which leads me to believe that those are just the hangovers from the Moore era. Davi is absolutely on FIRE. One of the best villains in the series easily. LTK also has my favorite score from a one-off film composer in the series.

    I actually find LTK to be the perfect follow up to OHMSS - a cynical and world-weary Bond is driven by pure vengeance to avenge Della's death, motivated by his own tragic marriage. You could realistically ignore DAF and assume that Bond's personal demons surrounding his own wedding drive him to go rogue.
  • edited March 2017 Posts: 11,189
    Dalton thinks TLD is better.

    Agreed that TLD does drag a bit (a reason I don't rank it as highly as some around here) but I think its the classier film of the two and better directed.

    I've watched OHMSS and LTK back-to-back before incidentally and that was when the problems in LTK were exposed (to me at least).
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 4,016
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    What was your reaction to Dalton leaving @LeonardPine out of curiosity?

    Well I knew he probably wasn't going to hang around for all those years anyway. There wasn't any guarantee as to when the next film was going to be made so I didn't blame him for bowing out when he did.

    would like to have seen him do a third Bond film but there you go.

    I loved his performance in TLD but was very disappointed with his acting in LTK.

    I think the makers departed from the Bond formula too much with LTK and we ended up with an ugly, uneven film, with awful dialogue and an uninteresting story.
  • BAIN123 wrote: »
    LTK has by far the worst couple of Bond girls in the series.

    I'm not sure I'd call them the worst but I do think all three main women (including Della) in LTK are underwhelming, lightweight actresses.

    My biggest change of opinion has been with Della/Pricilla Barnes . She seemed little more than a ditzy blonde.

    I'd say beautiful, not very voluptuous and not very good actresses.
  • Posts: 11,189
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I find Priscilla Barnes to be perfect in the role, always have. And what in Hell is wrong with ditzy blondes anyway? I'll take this cover these butch, macho chicks.

    I find her a bit "light" and rather classless.
  • JamesBondKenyaJamesBondKenya Danny Boyle laughs to himself
    edited March 2017 Posts: 2,730
    When i say I hate a bond film or it's my least favorite or it's unitresting, it's still generally leaps better than any other film in general, how about you guys, do you think objectively that any bond film is a bad film in general out of the bond context
  • edited March 2017 Posts: 11,189
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Perfect for Felix!

    True. I think I just find Barnes herself has a slightly tacky manner about her. I also, to be honest, remember seeing a rather revealing picture of her on the net. Kind of made me lose a bit of respect for her and Della the character
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited March 2017 Posts: 23,883
    When i say I hate a bond film or it's my least favorite or it's unitresting, it's still generally leaps better than any other film in general, how about you guys, do you think objectively that any bond film is a bad film in general out of the bond context
    There are few just prior to the reboot that I would personally class as complete PoS's (on many levels), but otherwise no. I think Bond films generally are a cut above the rest, and they are in my favourite genre.
  • BMW_with_missilesBMW_with_missiles All the usual refinements.
    edited March 2017 Posts: 3,000
    When i say I hate a bond film or it's my least favorite or it's unitresting, it's still generally leaps better than any other film in general, how about you guys, do you think objectively that any bond film is a bad film in general out of the bond context

    Objectively, I would only say that QOS is bad. It's a poorly written, poorly edited movie. (Hides under table)
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    But its well acted.....
  • edited March 2017 Posts: 11,189
    Agreed. The acting in QOS is largely very good. Unfortunately they have rather limited material to work with.
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