Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    RC7 wrote: »
    For me the glamour is something that always needs to be there. The further you pull back from that you move into Le Carre territory. He created Smiley because Bond was a big dollop of nonsense. The trappings of expensive living and the stylish flourishes are some of the key idiosyncrasies of Bond and set him apart from the contenders. That's not to say you can't do an LTK, I just think they benefit when there's a level of gloss to it. When you look at GF, or OHMSS, or CR there's a richness to them that you don't find in LTK, but it's something you could have without sacrificing the tone of that movie.

    yes.

    Also agree. This is my only quarm with LTK.....particularly the airport scene and the crap hire car.
  • Birdleson wrote: »
    To me one of the few drawbacks of the film is the length of the tanker chase. It begins to drag.

    Oh god it does. If they cut out one or even both of the truck stunts it'd be much tighter and more effective.
  • Posts: 11,189
    Birdleson wrote: »
    To me one of the few drawbacks of the film is the length of the tanker chase. It begins to drag.

    Oh god it does. If they cut out one or even both of the truck stunts it'd be much tighter and more effective.

    They probably could have cut the bit when he drives through the fire. Is it possible to even get that kind of truck to balance on it's back wheels like that?
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    RC7 wrote: »
    For me the glamour is something that always needs to be there. The further you pull back from that you move into Le Carre territory. He created Smiley because Bond was a big dollop of nonsense. The trappings of expensive living and the stylish flourishes are some of the key idiosyncrasies of Bond and set him apart from the contenders. That's not to say you can't do an LTK, I just think they benefit when there's a level of gloss to it. When you look at GF, or OHMSS, or CR there's a richness to them that you don't find in LTK, but it's something you could have without sacrificing the tone of that movie.

    OHMSS and GF (though I dislike the latter) have a glossy look, but CR? I don't believe it does.

    LTK and Bond in it takes a lot of flack, but at the end of the day, the sweaty vest 80's were going to be a tough time for Bond. Either Bond would be accused looking out of touch, or that he'd lost the crucial qualities that set him apart.
  • Posts: 11,189
    What about all the Montenegro stuff in CR? Or the Bond/Vesper dinner scene? Or the early stuff in the Bahamas? That all looks beautifully photographed.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    What about all the Montenegro stuff in CR? Or the Bond/Vesper dinner scene? Or the early stuff in the Bahamas? That all looks beautifully photographed.

    As an action thriller, it's decent enough, no more than that.
  • I like both of Dalton's films, but do think that LTK has a much more involved, emotional ending.

    Yeah, especially the scene where Leiter is up for a bit of fishing a couple of days after his new wife was murdered...

    Get what you're saying, was just referring to the resolution between Bond and Sanchez.
  • Posts: 15,124
    A very controversial idea, even to myself: as much as I loathe DAF, the franchise would not have survived another movie of the same tone and quality as OHMSS.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    edited March 2017 Posts: 28,694
    I like both of Dalton's films, but do think that LTK has a much more involved, emotional ending.

    Yeah, especially the scene where Leiter is up for a bit of fishing a couple of days after his new wife was murdered...

    The ending definitely needed retooling. I can understand the urge EON felt to end on a happier note with all the characters after such heavy death and violence in the film, but I would have much rather seen the movie end with Bond meeting Felix in the hospital, where the bedridden man questions his old friend about wounds that don't heal. Something along the lines of...

    Felix: "Does it ever get easier to deal with, James? The pain...the rage?"

    Bond: "Over time, yes. But you can never forget them. Nor would you ever want to."


    I'd prefer a quiet moment of the sort to anything else, and I think it would've really elevated the movie to get an earnest talk between Bond and Felix that directly connected back to the little mention of Tracy that opened the film. It was clear how much of the film was unconsciously driven by Bond feeling sympathy for a man losing his wife on his wedding day, so to end the film with a dialogue that explored the tragedy that binds Bond and Felix would've been powerful. At least to me, really.

    It's part of why I think QoS is the most successful film in the same order of LTK, that tells a grounded, brutal story with stripped back elements that never loses itself at any point. LTK tells that story, but gets hampered by tonal inconsistency, whereas QoS was allowed to be what it needed to be to explore the narrative it set out to. It begins laconic and moody, and ends as such, with the tiniest bit of reverberation as we sense the weight of Vesper's act lifted off Bond. He's found his quantum of solace. In LTK, the ending feels like a cheat in that regard, with a staged bit of celebration playing out when a quiet moment was a necessity.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    What about all the Montenegro stuff in CR? Or the Bond/Vesper dinner scene? Or the early stuff in the Bahamas? That all looks beautifully photographed.

    As an action thriller, it's decent enough, no more than that.

    The suits, settings and photography look very glamorous to me. Especially after the 'comic book sheen' of DAD.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 4,009
    I like both of Dalton's films, but do think that LTK has a much more involved, emotional ending.

    Yeah, especially the scene where Leiter is up for a bit of fishing a couple of days after his new wife was murdered...

    Get what you're saying, was just referring to the resolution between Bond and Sanchez.

    That was so unsatisfying though. Sanchez barely has time to read let alone take in what the lighters engraving says before he's incinerated.

    And two guys fighting on the back of a tanker just didn't seem personal enough to me.

    After all the bloodshed that has occurred throughout the film it's an unsatisfying climax.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 4,009
    I like both of Dalton's films, but do think that LTK has a much more involved, emotional ending.

    Yeah, especially the scene where Leiter is up for a bit of fishing a couple of days after his new wife was murdered...

    The ending definitely needed retooling. I can understand the urge EON felt to end on a happier note with all the characters after such heavy death and violence in the film, but I would have much rather seen the movie end with Bond meeting Felix in the hospital, where the bedridden man questions his old friend about wounds that don't heal. Something along the lines of...

    Felix: "Does it ever get easier to deal with, James? The pain...the rage?"

    Bond: "Over time, yes. But you can never forget them. Nor would you ever want to."


    I'd prefer a quiet moment of the sort to anything else, and I think it would've really elevated the movie to get an earnest talk between Bond and Felix that directly connected back to the little mention of Tracy that opened the film. It was clear how much of the film was unconsciously driven by Bond feeling sympathy for a man losing his wife on his wedding day, so to end the film with a dialogue that explored the tragedy that binds Bond and Felix would've been powerful. At least to me, really.

    It's part of why I think QoS is the most successful film in the same order of LTK, that tells a grounded, brutal story with stripped back elements that never loses itself at any point. LTK tells that story, but gets hampered by tonal inconsistency, whereas QoS was allowed to be what it needed to be to explore the narrative it set out to. It begins laconic and moody, and ends as such, with the tiniest bit of reverberation as we sense the weight of Vesper's act lifted off Bond. He's found his quantum of solace. In LTK, the ending feels like a cheat in that regard, with a staged bit of celebration playing out when a quiet moment was a necessity.

    Agreed @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7

    This is where the film wants to have its cake and eat it.

    The ending you suggest would have been much more appropriate than the silly happy ending we get. The ending grates after all the grim bloodshed that has gone before. After all, Bond has resigned from the service and gone rogue, getting innocent people killed along the way, as well as blundering into a Hong Kong narcotics sting. And we're expected to swallow a 007 getting the girl, Leiters actually not dead and quite alright really and a winking fish ending.

    It just doesn't work.

    Thankfully the lesson was learnt with the excellent QoS.
  • edited April 2017 Posts: 11,189
    I think they could have, at the very least, had Felix looking at a picture of Della by his hospital bed.

    Also, Q seems to get away scott-free with supplying a rogue agent with classified equipment.

    That entire last scene is all very cheesy. The one bit I do like though is old Desmond looking down at Bond in the pool disapprovingly before swigging his drink and heading back to the party.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 4,009
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    I think they could have, at the very least, had Felix looking at a picture of Della by his hospital bed.

    He soon forgot about poor Della didn't he? Good old Felix wants to go fishing as soon as he's up and about.....but not with Sharky obviously.
  • Posts: 11,189
    ...but surely it kind of undermines the whole ordeal. I get that they wanted to show that Felix was alive and well but it just feels well...cheesy to me.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I love that bit with Felix in the hospital; he's a pretty callous fellow. Not out of character for a Bond ally.

    It's the woman he was going to spend his life with though, and it's like nothing happened. There's being callous, and then there's just being a sociopath; people should've honestly checked if he fell, hit his head and lost his memory because you'd think he'd forgot Della existed. Felix never acts like that, ever. He's always the lovable conniving ally to all of Bond's mischief, and cares for people in an endearing way that means he'll do anything for them. His reaction stands out as so fake and against character because Della was one of those people to him. Bond cares more about what happened, and he's just a friend to her.

    Formula has strengths and weaknesses, and LTK shows the big drawback that comes from going too much on formula. It was able to skirt it at times throughout the movie, but when it really needed to pull back and deliver a different ending that dared not to be the same old "Oh, there's our James!" kind of ending where everyone's all together and happy and life is grand...well, it just doesn't work. Again, a bit too much like a Connery or Moore ending instead of what it needed to be, the biggest issue of the entire Dalton era: two tones fighting endlessly against each other. The unfortunate result is inconsistency in much of what we see.

    As it's been pointed out, the film's content leading up to the denouement-despite some lighter moments here and there-spoke of a far more thoughtful and resonant ending. And we didn't get a tenth of that. If it was brave enough to do that, LTK would go from a 13 to 10 spot for me and get closer to the Craig and Connery movies.
  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    Posts: 7,314
    The ending grates after all the grim bloodshed that has gone before. After all, Bond has resigned from the service and gone rogue, getting innocent people killed along the way, as well as blundering into a Hong Kong narcotics sting. And we're expected to swallow a 007 getting the girl, Leiters actually not dead and quite alright really and a winking fish ending.

    Not to mention that Bond gets his job back without so much as a slap on the wrist, which has always been my least favorite part about the ending. I guess it didn't really matter if he had resigned or not since there were no consequences for him. It really undermines the drama at Hemingway's House from earlier in the film. Sucks to be that Agent Fallon who was sent to retrieve him!
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 4,009
    pachazo wrote: »
    The ending grates after all the grim bloodshed that has gone before. After all, Bond has resigned from the service and gone rogue, getting innocent people killed along the way, as well as blundering into a Hong Kong narcotics sting. And we're expected to swallow a 007 getting the girl, Leiters actually not dead and quite alright really and a winking fish ending.

    Not to mention that Bond gets his job back without so much as a slap on the wrist, which has always been my least favorite part about the ending. I guess it didn't really matter if he had resigned or not since there were no consequences for him. It really undermines the drama at Hemingway's House from earlier in the film. Sucks to be that Agent Fallon who was sent to retrieve him!

    I'd like to have seen how Dalton's third film would have dealt with the events of LTK, or whether they would have (probably) just been ignored.

    Alas, it wasn't to be.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    pachazo wrote: »
    The ending grates after all the grim bloodshed that has gone before. After all, Bond has resigned from the service and gone rogue, getting innocent people killed along the way, as well as blundering into a Hong Kong narcotics sting. And we're expected to swallow a 007 getting the girl, Leiters actually not dead and quite alright really and a winking fish ending.

    Not to mention that Bond gets his job back without so much as a slap on the wrist, which has always been my least favorite part about the ending. I guess it didn't really matter if he had resigned or not since there were no consequences for him. It really undermines the drama at Hemingway's House from earlier in the film. Sucks to be that Agent Fallon who was sent to retrieve him!

    I'd like to have seen how Dalton's third film would have dealt with the events of LTK, or whether they would have (probably) just been ignored.

    Alas, it wasn't to be.

    Judging from the plot that has been revealed for his third film, it was back to business as usual. The LTK novelization by Gardner actually did a better job of showing that M was looking out for Bond, but in the film there's not as much a sense of that. The Hemingway house incident happens, and then they just don't speak. Like the ending with Felix, there's no proper resolution to that very big moment that'd never happened in the series before. When Bond resigns, it should be a big deal, but Bond and M never touch base and that's that.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 4,009
    pachazo wrote: »
    The ending grates after all the grim bloodshed that has gone before. After all, Bond has resigned from the service and gone rogue, getting innocent people killed along the way, as well as blundering into a Hong Kong narcotics sting. And we're expected to swallow a 007 getting the girl, Leiters actually not dead and quite alright really and a winking fish ending.

    Not to mention that Bond gets his job back without so much as a slap on the wrist, which has always been my least favorite part about the ending. I guess it didn't really matter if he had resigned or not since there were no consequences for him. It really undermines the drama at Hemingway's House from earlier in the film. Sucks to be that Agent Fallon who was sent to retrieve him!

    I'd like to have seen how Dalton's third film would have dealt with the events of LTK, or whether they would have (probably) just been ignored.

    Alas, it wasn't to be.

    Judging from the plot that has been revealed for his third film, it was back to business as usual. The LTK novelization by Gardner actually did a better job of showing that M was looking out for Bond, but in the film there's not as much a sense of that. The Hemingway house incident happens, and then they just don't speak. Like the ending with Felix, there's no proper resolution to that very big moment that'd never happened in the series before. When Bond resigns, it should be a big deal, but Bond and M never touch base and that's that.

    I read the John Gardner novelization way back in 89 (and still have it)

    I can remember actually preferring it to the film.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    @LeonardPine, did the ending of the book actually do what the film didn't, ie. having Bond and Felix talk in a more dramatic fashion and have a wrap up with Bond and M?
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I love that bit with Felix in the hospital; he's a pretty callous fellow. Not out of character for a Bond ally.

    It's the woman he was going to spend his life with though, and it's like nothing happened. There's being callous, and then there's just being a sociopath; people should've honestly checked if he fell, hit his head and lost his memory because you'd think he'd forgot Della existed. Felix never acts like that, ever. He's always the lovable conniving ally to all of Bond's mischief, and cares for people in an endearing way that means he'll do anything for them. His reaction stands out as so fake and against character because Della was one of those people to him. Bond cares more about what happened, and he's just a friend to her.

    Formula has strengths and weaknesses, and LTK shows the big drawback that comes from going too much on formula. It was able to skirt it at times throughout the movie, but when it really needed to pull back and deliver a different ending that dared not to be the same old "Oh, there's our James!" kind of ending where everyone's all together and happy and life is grand...well, it just doesn't work. Again, a bit too much like a Connery or Moore ending instead of what it needed to be, the biggest issue of the entire Dalton era: two tones fighting endlessly against each other. The unfortunate result is inconsistency in much of what we see.

    As it's been pointed out, the film's content leading up to the denouement-despite some lighter moments here and there-spoke of a far more thoughtful and resonant ending. And we didn't get a tenth of that. If it was brave enough to do that, LTK would go from a 13 to 10 spot for me and get closer to the Craig and Connery movies.

    I love LTK. But I have to agree with this post....the film shifts between 6th and 8th spot in my rankings.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    edited April 2017 Posts: 4,009
    @LeonardPine, did the ending of the book actually do what the film didn't, ie. having Bond and Felix talk in a more dramatic fashion and have a wrap up with Bond and M?

    Not sure, @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7, it was a long time ago that I read it.

    I'll have to dig it out and have another read of it!
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    It is a relief that Brosnan was Bond in those four films. A better actor would have been wasted in those idiotic movies, and better movies would have been wasted on Brosnan. He was an abysmal Bond who was the right choice for those abysmal films.
  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    Posts: 10,591
    It is a relief that Brosnan was Bond in those four films. A better actor would have been wasted in those idiotic movies, and better movies would have been wasted on Brosnan. He was an abysmal Bond who was the right choice for those abysmal films.
    You know what? I've grown seriously agitated at your incessant Brosnan bashing. We get it. He's your least favorite Bond. The least you can do is back up your statement.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Anyone with half a brain can see I am right. Just watch the films.
  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    Posts: 10,591
    Ok, you're right and I'm wrong.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    jake24 wrote: »
    Ok, you're right and I'm wrong.

    Was that so hard? Or are you being "ironic" now?
  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    Posts: 10,591
    jake24 wrote: »
    Ok, you're right and I'm wrong.

    Was that so hard? Or are you being "ironic" now?
    You're the comedian, you tell me.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    I don t get gay irony.
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