Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    Posts: 10,592
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Seagal's running is akin to a wimpy, toddler-version of me hustling to the bathroom before it's too late.

    Apologies for turning this into the 'How Actors Run' thread.
    I wouldn't be opposed to starting one...
  • Posts: 19,339
    Go for it..
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    Nothing tops Craig's Boston Dynamics running from Skyfall. Most cringey in the series.

    I would have called it a T1000 impression, but I suppose Boston Dynamics is also fitting.

    2694284-3814203630-81325.gif

    I think Brosnan's running is a lot worse!
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    RC7 wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    I feel the opposite way. Great song, iconic visuals and representative of the plot.

    bondjames wrote: »
    I much prefer TB in nearly every way. I can understand the comments about it being leisurely, but it's not like that doesn't apply to GF as well (the film bloody well comes to a halt after the laser sequence!).

    I find all the characters more appealing (especially the female ones, who are a very important component of a Bond film to me). I find the locations more exotic and Bond-like (again, a very important element for me). I find the main villain more sinister and dangerous (yes, I think Celi's Largo is a more credible foe to Forbe's chunky Goldfinger, who just seems like a big bragging buffoon to me). I much prefer the dreamy score in the later film as well (I think this is around the time that Barry really came into his element, and that genius carried uninterrupted through to DAF).

    Most importantly, as I've said numerous times before, I think the fundamental difference is in Connery. He is way too goofy (for lack of a better word) in GF, whereas he is deadly charming and lethal in both measures in TB. There are subtle differences in his approach in the Young films vs. how he acts in the Hamilton entries, and I much prefer what Young is able to bring out of him. I prefer Hamilton's work with Moore.

    Great post. Hamilton cant compete with Young.

    Hamilton was like the Beatles. He created history.

    Nope. That was Young with regards to the style/ direction of the films and Fleming with regards to the story and character. TB was also more successful than GF. Fact.

    Young laid the groundwork and Hamilton took it to the next level with GF. He added the cinematic veneer that would come to define Bond. For me there's more argument for DN and FRWL over TB. For all the positives I think it's easily the weakest of the four.

    It certainly was more successful, but that was due in large part to its predecessor kick starting a phenomenon.

    Young laid the groundwork and Hamilton piggy backed on the back of the winning formula already set.

    But, yes, agreed, GF did 'kick start' a phenomenon.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    suavejmf wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    I feel the opposite way. Great song, iconic visuals and representative of the plot.

    bondjames wrote: »
    I much prefer TB in nearly every way. I can understand the comments about it being leisurely, but it's not like that doesn't apply to GF as well (the film bloody well comes to a halt after the laser sequence!).

    I find all the characters more appealing (especially the female ones, who are a very important component of a Bond film to me). I find the locations more exotic and Bond-like (again, a very important element for me). I find the main villain more sinister and dangerous (yes, I think Celi's Largo is a more credible foe to Forbe's chunky Goldfinger, who just seems like a big bragging buffoon to me). I much prefer the dreamy score in the later film as well (I think this is around the time that Barry really came into his element, and that genius carried uninterrupted through to DAF).

    Most importantly, as I've said numerous times before, I think the fundamental difference is in Connery. He is way too goofy (for lack of a better word) in GF, whereas he is deadly charming and lethal in both measures in TB. There are subtle differences in his approach in the Young films vs. how he acts in the Hamilton entries, and I much prefer what Young is able to bring out of him. I prefer Hamilton's work with Moore.

    Great post. Hamilton cant compete with Young.

    Hamilton was like the Beatles. He created history.

    Nope. That was Young with regards to the style/ direction of the films and Fleming with regards to the story and character. TB was also more successful than GF. Fact.

    Young laid the groundwork and Hamilton took it to the next level with GF. He added the cinematic veneer that would come to define Bond. For me there's more argument for DN and FRWL over TB. For all the positives I think it's easily the weakest of the four.

    It certainly was more successful, but that was due in large part to its predecessor kick starting a phenomenon.

    Young laid the groundwork and Hamilton piggy backed on the back of the winning formula already set.

    But, yes, agreed, GF did 'kick start' a phenomenon.

    For the record, I never said Hamilton is a better director than Young (that was insinuated) but I do believe he brought a sensibility that elevated Bond to a new plateau. The formula was not set pre-GF, GF built on and defined it. There's no doubt that it would've been impossible without Young, no one could deny that, but I also think it's disingenuous to discredit Hamilton. The Beatles comparison I made was to hit home the fact he was in the right place at the right time, but he also did the right thing. It's unfortunate for Young, but Hamilton lucked out that he had artists such as Adam, Barry (and himself) working at full tilt. I think it's a film to be celebrated.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited April 2017 Posts: 23,883
    I think GF is a truly iconic film and I can see why it had an impact on so many people, especially those who were alive at its release. It was the SF of its time. Something quite different to what had come before and yet impressive in its own right (while still deeply flawed).

    However, I have to say that the film does absolutely nothing for me. Everything it did has been bettered (imho) in the series since. The same cannot be said of DN, FRWL or even TB, which are all quite special and unique viewing experiences for me, even now.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    @bondjames, I agree, though I would say CR was a better example than SF regarding a film that truly did something new in the modern era. CR was a deconstruction and reevaluation of Bond, whereas SF was a return to the past. Both did new things, sure, but I think CR was a more potent example, especially since it did away with much of the formula people knew of and had to introduce a new Bond, whereas the formula was back in a form in SF with an established Craig.

    I agree about GF, though, and it pains me. I don't want to find the film very lifeless, as it was what introduced me to Sean's movies almost a decade ago, a viewing that started my serious interest in studying the character from every perspective. Over time and after seeing and studying these films intensely, it just doesn't hold up, even to the films in its own era.

    I hate to continue to come off as a GF hater, because it's not that and I don't want it to feel like that. It's just that when people keep saying GF changed things forever and made the formula a thing, I just can't support that view. The opening song, pre-title, villain banter, shaken not stirred martini, gadgets, style and overall visual life of Bond was already cemented in the two previous movies at some stage. I'll concede the shot of Jill in bed and the DB5, though the latter was used briefly and tossed away so its fame has only really been reignited from the 90s on when the films returned to featuring it. I don't think GF created the Bond formula as we know it, it just worked from nearly everything that was already done before, giving only slight additions.

    I know many have nostalgia for it, and that is a powerful agent. Though I had fond memories of it, I am still able to see where the other films are superior in major ways, and am not afraid to point that out despite the target it can paint on you.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited April 2017 Posts: 23,883
    @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7, while I agree with you that technically CR is a better example and is indeed a deconstruction and re-evaulation of Bond, I think SF is a better example in terms of giving us a different kind of film.

    Even though it brings back the office, MP, Q & a male M, there is something quite unique about the way SF unfolds for me. Bond essentially takes a back seat to the conflict between M & Silva, and as I've mentioned before, I think that essential personal conflict is what made SF resonate with so many of the general public. That was the driver of the box office, and not James Bond himself.

    I recall coming out of the theatre thinking: "well that was different", and yet deeply satisfying. I came out of CR ecstatic as well, but more because it was a welcome return to form after the 90's. So even though CR stripped away a lot of the tropes, it was in essence a pure Bond film at heart. SF was something more to me, despite ironically adding some of the tropes back.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    edited April 2017 Posts: 8,454
    bondjames wrote: »
    However, I have to say that the film does absolutely nothing for me. Everything it did has been bettered (imho) in the series since. The same cannot be said of DN, FRWL or even TB, which are all quite special and unique viewing experiences for me, even now.

    But has everything it did been bettered by one film?

    I feel like the retroactive draw of Goldfinger is not necessarily to give us elements that are unfamiliar, but to showcase those elements firing with a particular vivacity that hasn't been seen since.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited April 2017 Posts: 23,883
    bondjames wrote: »
    However, I have to say that the film does absolutely nothing for me. Everything it did has been bettered (imho) in the series since. The same cannot be said of DN, FRWL or even TB, which are all quite special and unique viewing experiences for me, even now.

    But has everything it did been bettered by one film?

    No, probably not. Other Bond films have taken parts of the GF formula and improved upon it over the past 50 years but probably none has combined all the elements as well.

    I personally prefer TSWLM (girl, car, villain, locations, henchman, title song, soundtrack, plot & performance by the lead Bond actor in the specific film) as a larger than life formula driven entry, but I can appreciate that I am in the minority in that regard.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    bondjames wrote: »
    However, I have to say that the film does absolutely nothing for me. Everything it did has been bettered (imho) in the series since. The same cannot be said of DN, FRWL or even TB, which are all quite special and unique viewing experiences for me, even now.

    But has everything it did been bettered by one film?

    The only films that for me come close to any measure of perfection are FRWL, OHMSS and CR in that they have a massive impact in all or nearly every area of production that could be classed as masterful, well-structured and paced, iconic, high-class and/or unforgettable. I would never class GF as anywhere near perfect, and that starts with the script and the characters, which the above exceed at to startling degrees.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    edited April 2017 Posts: 8,454
    bondjames wrote: »
    However, I have to say that the film does absolutely nothing for me. Everything it did has been bettered (imho) in the series since. The same cannot be said of DN, FRWL or even TB, which are all quite special and unique viewing experiences for me, even now.

    But has everything it did been bettered by one film?

    The only films that for me come close to any measure of perfection are FRWL, OHMSS and CR in that they have a massive impact in all or nearly every area of production that could be classed as masterful, well-structured and paced, iconic, high-class and/or unforgettable. I would never class GF as anywhere near perfect, and that starts with the script and the characters, which the above exceed at to startling degrees.

    Hmm, it's a bit like the age old debate of whether Return of the Jedi lives up to the first two Star Wars films. A lot of the most iconic stuff is in RotJ, after all, like the Sarlac pit, the Emperor, Ewoks, Speeder bikes, Darth Vaders face etc. Well, I don't quite know where I fall on that debate, and I don't quite know where I fall on this one either. I certainly prefer Young's style, but something in me can't shake off the feeling that something extra special was captured with Goldfinger. Like the ultimate tension of elements was achieved, and it took Hamilton coming along right at the moment once the groundwork had been laid for him. I find the tempered nature of such a brassy, over the top production something very compelling.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    edited April 2017 Posts: 5,131
    The first 4 are all brilliant. For the record, Return of the Jedi IMO was a disappointment after the brilliant Empire Strikes Back.....tone wise ROTJ is all wrong and a much more serious film would have been better.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited April 2017 Posts: 23,883
    I find the tempered nature of such a brassy, over the top production something very compelling.
    It is this OTT aspect (which provides the film with a lot of its iconic nature) which I think has been far bettered since. What's left behind after that's stripped is rather mundane imho. With films like DN, FRWL & even TB, I find the films impress despite the 'flash', or at least in the case of the first two, because they don't have any of that to rely on like a crutch.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    edited April 2017 Posts: 8,454
    bondjames wrote: »
    I find the tempered nature of such a brassy, over the top production something very compelling.
    It is this OTT aspect (which provides the film with a lot of its iconic nature) which I think has been far bettered since. What's left beside after that's stipped is rather mundane imho. With films like DN, FRWL & even TB, I find the films impress despite the 'flash', or at least in the case of the first two, because they don't have any of that to rely on like a crutch.

    I see where you're coming from. I'd say the flash had a functional role in GF, but not quite to the extent that it was a crutch. That's almost the wonderful thing about it - you can always feel the genuine contempt shared between Bond and Goldfinger sizzling under the surface. At several points, like on the torture table and when diffusing the bomb at the end, It's that interplay between the breezy, lighthearted feel and the drama happening underneath that's most alluring.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    bondjames wrote: »
    However, I have to say that the film does absolutely nothing for me. Everything it did has been bettered (imho) in the series since. The same cannot be said of DN, FRWL or even TB, which are all quite special and unique viewing experiences for me, even now.

    But has everything it did been bettered by one film?

    The only films that for me come close to any measure of perfection are FRWL, OHMSS and CR in that they have a massive impact in all or nearly every area of production that could be classed as masterful, well-structured and paced, iconic, high-class and/or unforgettable. I would never class GF as anywhere near perfect, and that starts with the script and the characters, which the above exceed at to startling degrees.

    Hmm, it's a bit like the age old debate of whether Return of the Jedi lives up to the first two Star Wars films. A lot of the most iconic stuff is in RotJ, after all, like the Sarlac pit, the Emperor, Ewoks, Speeder bikes, Darth Vaders face etc. Well, I don't quite know where I fall on that debate, and I don't quite know where I fall on this one either. I certainly prefer Young's style, but something in me can't shake off the feeling that something extra special was captured with Goldfinger. Like the ultimate tension of elements was achieved, and it took Hamilton coming along right at the moment once the groundwork had been laid for him. I find the tempered nature of such a brassy, over the top production something very compelling.

    Most people who are Star Wars fans that I know actually don't rate RotJ as iconic or special, naming the Ewoks as a prime example of that. It's almost exclusively an Empire Strikes Back party.

    As for GF, I again don't see it as an over the top production. In fact, it's a rather weak one. It's almost entirely made up of just a bunch of sets, with no actual location shooting outside the Switzerland section, which of course has to be the shortest section of the main plot. All the other films in the 60s and after were massively successful at feeling real and transportive, because they actually went to locations and weren't bound to Pinewood at all. DN, FRWL, TB and YOLT give us unrivaled shots of Jamaica, Turkey, the Bahamas and Japan, with OHMSS doing the same at a globe-trotting level. What does GF have? Two second ariel shots of Miami and Kentucky and minor ground shooting, with all in England besides the aforementioned fleeting moments in Switzerland. That aspect just makes the film feel so weak and lifeless in comparison to the other movies that truly took you somewhere.

    Adding in a horribly written Bond, a weak plot, bad pacing and subpar choreography, and we've got an issue. There's not enough strong stuff in GF to distract from all the things it doesn't do for me.
    bondjames wrote: »
    I find the tempered nature of such a brassy, over the top production something very compelling.
    It is this OTT aspect (which provides the film with a lot of its iconic nature) which I think has been far bettered since. What's left beside after that's stipped is rather mundane imho. With films like DN, FRWL & even TB, I find the films impress despite the 'flash', or at least in the case of the first two, because they don't have any of that to rely on like a crutch.

    I see where you're coming from. I'd say the flash had a functional role in GF, but not quite to the extent that it was a crutch. That's almost the wonderful thing about it - you can always feel the genuine contempt shared between Bond and Goldfinger sizzling under the surface. At several points, like on the torture table and when diffusing the bomb at the end, It's that interplay between the breezy, lighthearted feel and the drama happening underneath that's most alluring.

    People always name that as an achievement of the film, but that's in every early Connery movie, and often done much better or at least equal. The meeting and dinner with Dr. No, the amazing Oriental Express chess battle Bond and Grant play up until they face each other in sudden death, and the subtle ways Bond constantly berates and destroys Largo's personal and professional life in TB are all more cleverly done interactions and far more interesting to me than Bond and Goldfinger's talks in GF. They're nice and well written to a point, but they lack the same dosage of drama and cleverness the others before and after it had.

    GF was simply playing off of how Bond was able to speak with villains pleasantly while signaling his contempt of them, a thing that DN started.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    edited April 2017 Posts: 8,454
    bondjames wrote: »
    However, I have to say that the film does absolutely nothing for me. Everything it did has been bettered (imho) in the series since. The same cannot be said of DN, FRWL or even TB, which are all quite special and unique viewing experiences for me, even now.

    But has everything it did been bettered by one film?

    The only films that for me come close to any measure of perfection are FRWL, OHMSS and CR in that they have a massive impact in all or nearly every area of production that could be classed as masterful, well-structured and paced, iconic, high-class and/or unforgettable. I would never class GF as anywhere near perfect, and that starts with the script and the characters, which the above exceed at to startling degrees.

    Hmm, it's a bit like the age old debate of whether Return of the Jedi lives up to the first two Star Wars films. A lot of the most iconic stuff is in RotJ, after all, like the Sarlac pit, the Emperor, Ewoks, Speeder bikes, Darth Vaders face etc. Well, I don't quite know where I fall on that debate, and I don't quite know where I fall on this one either. I certainly prefer Young's style, but something in me can't shake off the feeling that something extra special was captured with Goldfinger. Like the ultimate tension of elements was achieved, and it took Hamilton coming along right at the moment once the groundwork had been laid for him. I find the tempered nature of such a brassy, over the top production something very compelling.

    Most people who are Star Wars fans that I know actually don't rate RotJ as iconic or special, naming the Ewoks as a prime example of that. It's almost exclusively an Empire Strikes Back party.

    As for GF, I again don't see it as an over the top production. In fact, it's a rather weak one. It's almost entirely made up of just a bunch of sets, with no actual location shooting outside the Switzerland section, which of course has to be the shortest section of the main plot. All the other films in the 60s and after were massively successful at feeling real and transportive, because they actually went to locations and weren't bound to Pinewood at all. DN, FRWL, TB and YOLT give us unrivaled shots of Jamaica, Turkey, the Bahamas and Japan, with OHMSS doing the same at a globe-trotting level. What does GF have? Two second ariel shots of Miami and Kentucky and minor ground shooting, with all in England besides the aforementioned fleeting moments in Switzerland. That aspect just makes the film feel so weak and lifeless in comparison to the other movies that truly took you somewhere.

    Adding in a horribly written Bond, a weak plot, bad pacing and subpar choreography, and we've got an issue. There's not enough strong stuff in GF to distract from all the things it doesn't do for me.
    bondjames wrote: »
    I find the tempered nature of such a brassy, over the top production something very compelling.
    It is this OTT aspect (which provides the film with a lot of its iconic nature) which I think has been far bettered since. What's left beside after that's stipped is rather mundane imho. With films like DN, FRWL & even TB, I find the films impress despite the 'flash', or at least in the case of the first two, because they don't have any of that to rely on like a crutch.

    I see where you're coming from. I'd say the flash had a functional role in GF, but not quite to the extent that it was a crutch. That's almost the wonderful thing about it - you can always feel the genuine contempt shared between Bond and Goldfinger sizzling under the surface. At several points, like on the torture table and when diffusing the bomb at the end, It's that interplay between the breezy, lighthearted feel and the drama happening underneath that's most alluring.

    People always name that as an achievement of the film, but that's in every early Connery movie, and often done much better or at least equal. The meeting and dinner with Dr. No, the amazing Oriental Express chess battle Bond and Grant play up until they face each other in sudden death, and the subtle ways Bond constantly berates and destroys Largo's personal and professional life in TB are all more cleverly done interactions and far more interesting to me than Bond and Goldfinger's talks in GF. They're nice and well written to a point, but they lack the same dosage of drama and cleverness the others before and after it had.

    GF was simply playing off of how Bond was able to speak with villains pleasantly while signaling his contempt of them, a thing that DN started.

    Well, with regards to locations, I've always viewed GF as a luxuriant, sweeping film. It's a visual treat. Sipping on a martini at Miami beach, Teeing off for a round of 18, taking the Aston for a spin along the winding roads of Switzerland, and finally stopping off at the most concentrated accruement of wealth known to man. The film unravels beautifully - we never visit the same location twice (well, except the plane and that little prison cell). I don't think it is obvious to the casual viewer that most of what they are seeing is set bound. And if it is, I doubt it troubles them quite like it seems to for you. And why would it? Ken Adam is a genius, and given far more license here than he is in any of the Young films. It seems an odd thing to take note with, personally.

    What you say about the Connery/Villain dynamic being a feature of all of the early films is of course true. To some extent, they all follow a similar pattern of verbal jousting and veiled threats. However, it's only in Goldfinger that that relationship forms the fundamental bedrock of the film itself. Dr No is more of a mystery figure, and when they do finally meet, he treats Bond very curtly from the beginning. He has overseen Bond's abilities, but he has never witnessed them for himself. There isn't that tug of war, except in the barbs they exchange at dinner. Dr No is curious of Bond, but remains unconvinced that he is anymore than "a stupid policeman". With Grant, it's a little different. I've always found him almost too capable. He is always one step ahead of Bond, and seems to formulate and execute plans almost in real time. Besides one brief monologue, the interactions between himself and Bond are performed through the medium of a guise. Again, there isn't really much of a power struggle going on until all pretense is dropped.
  • JamesBondKenyaJamesBondKenya Danny Boyle laughs to himself
    Posts: 2,730
    GBF wrote: »
    OK: Let's look what mi6community participants think according to last year's PTS elimination game:

    01. The Living Daylights
    02. Casino Royale
    03. Spectre
    04. The Spy Who Loved Me
    05. Goldfinger
    06. Skyfall
    07. GoldenEye
    08. Moonraker
    09. From Russia With Love
    10. Tomorrow Never Dies
    11. Octopussy
    12. On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    13. Licence To Kill
    14. The Man With The Golden Gun
    15. You Only Live Twice
    16. Quantum Of Solace
    17. The World Is Not Enough
    18. Die Another Day
    19. A View To A Kill
    20. Thunderball
    21. For Your Eyes Only
    22. Diamonds Are Forever
    23. Live And Let Die

    One problem that I have with the TB pts is the inconsistant tone. In the one moment, Bond, identifies Bouvoir disguised as a widow which is rather a lighthearted scene, in the next moment, he is breaking Bouvoir's neck in a very brutal way. The scene is followed by the rather comedic jet pack scene (is there even a more obvious way to enter or leave the building?) and the extremely lighthearted water scene.

    Awesome
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    bondjames wrote: »
    However, I have to say that the film does absolutely nothing for me. Everything it did has been bettered (imho) in the series since. The same cannot be said of DN, FRWL or even TB, which are all quite special and unique viewing experiences for me, even now.

    But has everything it did been bettered by one film?

    The only films that for me come close to any measure of perfection are FRWL, OHMSS and CR in that they have a massive impact in all or nearly every area of production that could be classed as masterful, well-structured and paced, iconic, high-class and/or unforgettable. I would never class GF as anywhere near perfect, and that starts with the script and the characters, which the above exceed at to startling degrees.

    Hmm, it's a bit like the age old debate of whether Return of the Jedi lives up to the first two Star Wars films. A lot of the most iconic stuff is in RotJ, after all, like the Sarlac pit, the Emperor, Ewoks, Speeder bikes, Darth Vaders face etc. Well, I don't quite know where I fall on that debate, and I don't quite know where I fall on this one either. I certainly prefer Young's style, but something in me can't shake off the feeling that something extra special was captured with Goldfinger. Like the ultimate tension of elements was achieved, and it took Hamilton coming along right at the moment once the groundwork had been laid for him. I find the tempered nature of such a brassy, over the top production something very compelling.

    Most people who are Star Wars fans that I know actually don't rate RotJ as iconic or special, naming the Ewoks as a prime example of that. It's almost exclusively an Empire Strikes Back party.

    As for GF, I again don't see it as an over the top production. In fact, it's a rather weak one. It's almost entirely made up of just a bunch of sets, with no actual location shooting outside the Switzerland section, which of course has to be the shortest section of the main plot. All the other films in the 60s and after were massively successful at feeling real and transportive, because they actually went to locations and weren't bound to Pinewood at all. DN, FRWL, TB and YOLT give us unrivaled shots of Jamaica, Turkey, the Bahamas and Japan, with OHMSS doing the same at a globe-trotting level. What does GF have? Two second ariel shots of Miami and Kentucky and minor ground shooting, with all in England besides the aforementioned fleeting moments in Switzerland. That aspect just makes the film feel so weak and lifeless in comparison to the other movies that truly took you somewhere.

    Adding in a horribly written Bond, a weak plot, bad pacing and subpar choreography, and we've got an issue. There's not enough strong stuff in GF to distract from all the things it doesn't do for me.
    bondjames wrote: »
    I find the tempered nature of such a brassy, over the top production something very compelling.
    It is this OTT aspect (which provides the film with a lot of its iconic nature) which I think has been far bettered since. What's left beside after that's stipped is rather mundane imho. With films like DN, FRWL & even TB, I find the films impress despite the 'flash', or at least in the case of the first two, because they don't have any of that to rely on like a crutch.

    I see where you're coming from. I'd say the flash had a functional role in GF, but not quite to the extent that it was a crutch. That's almost the wonderful thing about it - you can always feel the genuine contempt shared between Bond and Goldfinger sizzling under the surface. At several points, like on the torture table and when diffusing the bomb at the end, It's that interplay between the breezy, lighthearted feel and the drama happening underneath that's most alluring.

    People always name that as an achievement of the film, but that's in every early Connery movie, and often done much better or at least equal. The meeting and dinner with Dr. No, the amazing Oriental Express chess battle Bond and Grant play up until they face each other in sudden death, and the subtle ways Bond constantly berates and destroys Largo's personal and professional life in TB are all more cleverly done interactions and far more interesting to me than Bond and Goldfinger's talks in GF. They're nice and well written to a point, but they lack the same dosage of drama and cleverness the others before and after it had.

    GF was simply playing off of how Bond was able to speak with villains pleasantly while signaling his contempt of them, a thing that DN started.

    Well, with regards to locations, I've always viewed GF as a luxuriant, sweeping film. It's a visual treat. Sipping on a martini at Miami beach, Teeing off for a round of 18, taking the Aston for a spin along the winding roads of Switzerland, and finally stopping off at the most concentrated accruement of wealth known to man. The film unravels beautifully - we never visit the same location twice (well, except the plane and that little prison cell). I don't think it is obvious to the casual viewer that most of what they are seeing is set bound. And if it is, I doubt it troubles them quite like it seems to for you. And why would it? Ken Adam is a genius, and given far more license here than he is in any of the Young films. It seems an odd thing to take note with, personally.

    Except that's not really going on. We're sipping drinks in England, not Miami. We're driving around Goldfinger's factory, in England. We're taking in Kentucky's stud ranch...in England. Everything else in the film is suffocated by interiors that try to distract one from realizing how fake it all is. Adam does what he can, but I think DN and TB represent a far greater use of his talents that rely on the use of space and shape to create drama through light and dark. He is by far one of the reasons to tune into the film, however, and I thank the stars for him doing the design because without him it would sink all the more.

    Now, a Bond film like GF that axes location work might be more excepted today, where movie magic enables corners to be cut and locations have to be faked for budgetary reasons, but for all that the movie had in its coffers to dazzle us, we get no real location shooting outside of maybe five minutes. That's a big issue that makes the movie itself stick out when literally all the other films of its day were on location for the vast majority of their run time, and Bond was actually where we were told he was. Part of the reasons I watch the Bond films of old is to visit the locations as they were then. With DN and TB I can see tropical, exotic life on the screen, with FRWL I can witness a Cold War wracked Istanbul, in YOLT I see a Japan on the brink of being the modern day's example of fiery futurism, and in DAF I can visit a seedy and ostentatious Vegas that is now dead. In GF, there is none of that outside the five minutes of Switzerland, and that just kills so much of that film for me, because at that time that was not what was expected of a Bond film. For a series that was famous for doing it for real, GF fakes almost everything. Hence my constant metaphor that its gold is really pyrite.
    What you say about the Connery/Villain dynamic being a feature of all of the early films is of course true. To some extent, they all follow a similar pattern of verbal jousting and veiled threats. However, it's only in Goldfinger that that relationship forms the fundamental bedrock of the film itself. Dr No is more of a mystery figure, and when they do finally meet, he treats Bond very curtly from the beginning. He has overseen Bond's abilities, but he has never witnessed them for himself. There isn't that tug of war, except in the barbs they exchange at dinner. Dr No is curious of Bond, but remains unconvinced that he is anymore than "a stupid policeman". With Grant, it's a little different. I've always found him almost too capable. He is always one step ahead of Bond, and seems to formulate and execute plans almost in real time. Besides one brief monologue, the interactions between himself and Bond are performed through the medium of a guise. Again, there isn't really much of a power struggle going on until all pretense is dropped.

    As stated elsewhere, I find a far more creative use of this in TB, where we have a villain and hero that are actively trying their best to get at each other. In GF Bond is so laid back and almost frighteningly careless about things that you don't feel he's engaged at major moments. Things happen and he can only react, as he is stuck in such a snoozy, passive mode. This may be why the film is essentially just a collection of moments where he gets knocked out, leads people to death, gets captured or left for dead.

    In TB, the script itself is wonderfully structured around the villain/hero face-off, and it's given more momentum because Largo is SPECTRE's No. 2. This film's Bond does his job, and when he comes face to face with the villain he doesn't hold back. At the card game he mocks Largo and tells him straight up that he knows who his affiliates are, and that moment starts a never-ending game of verbal chess that continues throughout the whole film. Bond mocks him, he has Bond watched. Bond romances his girl, Largo uses Bond's attraction to Domino to distract him away from his hotel so Paula can be tortured. To retaliate, Bond runs to his home after orchestrating a blackout and uses wartime trickery to make Largo's men kill each other, and on, and on, and on. Every encounter the pair has sets the stage for Bond to destroy him from the inside out, or Largo Bond, where every line exchanged has multiple meanings. When heading to Largo's to shoot clay pigeons Bond again flirts with Domino to offset Largo and then points out the woman's gone he has, dually emasculating him while also letting him know he'd been watching him talk to Fiona from the helicopter (which Largo saw). You always know Bond and Largo are watching each other and exploiting every opportunity to leverage a win. This is essentially the ending of FRWL spanned out over an entire film, as in that movie Bond and Grant were both acting pleasant while performing their own counter moves under the table. And because these moments often turned vile and truly consequential, with Bond and Largo killing each other's associates to gain edges, you feel it all the more.

    GF has some nice lines and moments of verbal interplay, but there's nothing in it that compares to the bestial attacks Bond and Largo have that are double-sided, and not one. In GF I want to shout at Bond to do something, as Goldfinger is the only one that really succeeds in retaliating. Bond screws with Jill, Jill dies. Bond helps Tilly, Tilly dies. Bond tries to hear about the big plan, he is thrown in jail. There's not enough moments where Bond is empowered or where he even feels like an equal to Goldfinger, when he so clearly is. Out of all the early Bond villains, Goldfinger should be the easiest to confront, as he's got a smaller force, he's a waste-filled blob, and his fixations make him unfocused. Why Bond suddenly decides to act like an idiot every time he's around him constantly puzzles me to no end. Now, I like it when Bond is challenged of course, but when he's written to be so ineffective or when he doesn't act at all, that's a big issue inherent in the script. From the Swiss factory on there's no reason why Goldfinger would ever keep Bond alive for any reason, even more so in Kentucky after he knows that Bond has overheard all of his plan. And for how he acts, Bond doesn't feel like he deserves to live for the mistakes he's made.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 14,001
    bondjames wrote: »
    I think GF is a truly iconic film and I can see why it had an impact on so many people, especially those who were alive at its release. It was the SF of its time. Something quite different to what had come before and yet impressive in its own right (while still deeply flawed).

    However, I have to say that the film does absolutely nothing for me. Everything it did has been bettered (imho) in the series since. The same cannot be said of DN, FRWL or even TB, which are all quite special and unique viewing experiences for me, even now.

    This is exactly how I feel about GF. It is unquestionably THE Bond film, everyone, fan or not, knows about GF. But like you, it just does nothing for me.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,387
    GF has more iconic scenes than TB, full stop.
  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    Posts: 7,314
    From the Swiss factory on there's no reason why Goldfinger would ever keep Bond alive for any reason, even more so in Kentucky after he knows that Bond has overheard all of his plan.

    Don't forget that Felix and his assistant were spotted by Goldfinger's men at the Kentucky ranch. He had to show them that Bond was alive and well so they didn't immediately raid the place.
  • JamesBondKenyaJamesBondKenya Danny Boyle laughs to himself
    Posts: 2,730
    Goldfinger is almost like a roger Moore film as it is a lot of fun and not that serious
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    echo wrote: »
    GF has more iconic scenes than TB, full stop.

    Agreed.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    pachazo wrote: »
    From the Swiss factory on there's no reason why Goldfinger would ever keep Bond alive for any reason, even more so in Kentucky after he knows that Bond has overheard all of his plan.

    Don't forget that Felix and his assistant were spotted by Goldfinger's men at the Kentucky ranch. He had to show them that Bond was alive and well so they didn't immediately raid the place.

    Goldfinger could've just kept him in his cell and Felix would've been none the wiser, nor would he have ever had the authority or ability to "raid" the place based on any hunch he could have. Or Bond could've literally hopped a fence and said, "Hey Felix, I'm escaping and I know everything that guy is doing." The ranch doesn't feel like the prison it should, but as I said, Bond shouldn't have lived that long anyway.

    Thankfully for Bond Goldfinger was stupid enough to let him walk around anywhere he wanted and talk in the ear of his associate. If Bond was kept behind bars, all Auric's troubles would've been non-existent. There's ego, and then there's poor planning.
  • Posts: 19,339
    echo wrote: »
    GF has more iconic scenes than TB, full stop.

    Full stop my arse,it has nothing compared to the locations in TB...

  • Posts: 1,927
    I've seen several comments that GF is still considered the iconic film that is most accessible. Is it though among very young and new fans to the series or even younger movie fans in general?

    GF reminds me of the Beatles' Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band. It's considered iconic and groundbreaking and all that and we're kind of expected to revere it because of its reputation. But as much as I've tried to like each of those over the years I can't abide. Maybe that's from everybody from the critics to my parents and everybody from that generation telling me GF is the best.

    TB is like the Beatles' Revolver, a much more satisfying all-around experience. Strangely, I consider Goldfinger the best villain, Connery is dressed his best and really like the laser table sequence and Odd Job. But GF just doesn't do it for me. I respect it, just don't like it that much despite how good it is supposed to be for me.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    GF has the problem created for it by the culture, where it's so lauded there's no way it could live up to it. This happens with many films, and when one finally watches them after hearing about the movie for years, the reaction of the viewer can be negative or disappointed.

    It's important, with every acclaimed movie, to set your expectations accordingly to avoid being manipulated by the praise the rest of the world is giving it. Very little movies are as good or worthy of the acclaim they receive, but that's also not on them. That's on us.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Speak for yourself. I enjoyed GF immensely the first time I saw it and still do. Eye of the beholder, of course. It has a special shimmer and atmosphere to it that I love. For me, everything works in that film. Except the strings on that plane during the end scene.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,085
    GF is far superior to TB. TB is the only classic Bond movie that I consider borderline boring at times, mainly during those repetitive, overlong "Look What We Can Do" underwater fight scenes. The PTS is so-so at best, everyone can see that the woman at the funeral is really a woman and not a man in drag, unlike later. The sped-up fight and demise of the yacht at the showdown is a huge let-down. Celi is a second-rate Bond villain whose only "threatening" feature is the eye-patch, which is probably why it's there in the first place.

    While the cinematography (both above and under water) is top-notch and cinematically TB may still be the better movie than its copy, I find NSNA actually more entertaining than the original. But either way, GF is far more iconic, with the best PTS ever, the most classical "Bond theme", the best villain ever, the best Bond girl name ever...you name it. On my list, TB is somewhere down there in the mid-field "7/10" range, along with the likes of YOLT, LALD, TND, and LTK. Nothing special at all, just trying too hard to give more of the same, and probably the first movie after the franchise jumped the shark for the first time. The first movie that was better than GF after this was CR (2006) for me, and the second was SF. (Still, my all-time No. 1 remains FRWL, for the record.)
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