Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • Posts: 1,162
    About QOS:

    While I overall think the 24 films are alright the way they are, QOS is the one I would scrap if such a thing was possible.

    EON failed already in CR to a great extend with the re-boot nonsense.
    Craig was 38 and way too old to be a rookie 00. That's just for starters. And there is so much more really.

    But about QOS. It's like a TV episode has continued the story of a cinematic epic.
    Sure with a high budget and good production value but still.

    Craig is not Bond (hahaha) in QOS at all. Maybe in one or two scenes it feels like he is. (sorry couldn't resist :) )
    The rest is bloody stupid Die Hard vs Jason Bourne vs whatevercommonactionfilm

    Honestly if you change his name in the film nobody would even think of it as a Bond film.

    I enjoy the film nonetheless, it's highly entertaining and even if it's by far the greatest failure in the series (concerning making a proper Bond film) it still is watchable BECAUSE it is the "afterbirth" from Casino Royale and is therefore connected to it, that helps, that saves QOS. Otherwise I may not even watch it ever again.

    Strangely to me he feels much more Bondian than he did in CR. Probably because he is dressed tasteful throughout the movie and also displays manners ( two aspects that can't be said about CR)
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    @noSolaceleft

    of course the Tosca sequence is fantastic, it's the only thing in the film that really works and Craig is Bond there

    overall I think Craig only felt like Bond (compared to the other five actors) in SPECTRE. There are hints of Bond in CR (Montenegro) and SF (the Macau sequence).

    Let's just hope that Bond Begins nonsense will never again materialise in the series.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,395
    About QOS:

    While I overall think the 24 films are alright the way they are, QOS is the one I would scrap if such a thing was possible.

    EON failed already in CR to a great extend with the re-boot nonsense.
    Craig was 38 and way too old to be a rookie 00. That's just for starters. And there is so much more really.

    But about QOS. It's like a TV episode has continued the story of a cinematic epic.
    Sure with a high budget and good production value but still.

    Craig is not Bond (hahaha) in QOS at all. Maybe in one or two scenes it feels like he is. (sorry couldn't resist :) )
    The rest is bloody stupid Die Hard vs Jason Bourne vs whatevercommonactionfilm

    Honestly if you change his name in the film nobody would even think of it as a Bond film.

    I enjoy the film nonetheless, it's highly entertaining and even if it's by far the greatest failure in the series (concerning making a proper Bond film) it still is watchable BECAUSE it is the "afterbirth" from Casino Royale and is therefore connected to it, that helps, that saves QOS. Otherwise I may not even watch it ever again.

    You pretty much knocked it out of the park there. Craig's first two Bond films don't receive nearly enough criticism. I think it's because a darker emotional Bond has been tried before twice, and both times failed. So when Craig came along and made a gritty Bond film that was a success, a lot of people became instant disciples. In their minds, Craig is a grand leader who finally ushered in this type of Bond that we have all been yearning for. I have seen people try and downplay any criticisms of Craig as "nitpicking", which is of course done to interpretation. Anything to obscure or distract, or muddy the waters. I've also witnessed some shifting of blame away from the producers and Craig, to unforeseen circumstances like the writers strike. It's all an attempt to maintain a halo above Craig's head as the chosen one. Now, I have no problems with Craig. He is decent, but it's the messiah image that has been built around him, as the second coming of Connery that becomes tiresome. He's just another Bond actor like the other's, with upsides and downsides. But for some, that's insufficient. Like I say, I think Craig holds a special emotional grip on some people because he is the first one to make a realistic Bond work. How can they be critical of someone who has delivered what they have been waiting for for so long? They feel indebted in some way, and I think that's where all this mental gymnastics come from.
  • w2bondw2bond is indeed a very rare breed
    edited June 2017 Posts: 2,252
    I enjoy the film nonetheless, it's highly entertaining and even if it's by far the greatest failure in the series (concerning making a proper Bond film) it still is watchable BECAUSE it is the "afterbirth" from Casino Royale and is therefore connected to it, that helps, that saves QOS. Otherwise I may not even watch it ever again.

    The score saves QoS.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    edited June 2017 Posts: 9,020
    @w2bond

    True, the score is the most Bondian thing in the film. David Arnold is a genius anyway, I watched TWINE, DAD, CR, QOS (and SF) this week, and I realised once more how incredibly, almost grotesquely awful Newman's bloody score is.

    Skyfall could have been helped greatly with a David Arnold score, but then maybe not. Even Arnold couldn't have saved everything that comes after Silva's introdruction 70 minutes into the film.
  • Posts: 1,162
    About QOS:

    While I overall think the 24 films are alright the way they are, QOS is the one I would scrap if such a thing was possible.

    EON failed already in CR to a great extend with the re-boot nonsense.
    Craig was 38 and way too old to be a rookie 00. That's just for starters. And there is so much more really.

    But about QOS. It's like a TV episode has continued the story of a cinematic epic.
    Sure with a high budget and good production value but still.

    Craig is not Bond (hahaha) in QOS at all. Maybe in one or two scenes it feels like he is. (sorry couldn't resist :) )
    The rest is bloody stupid Die Hard vs Jason Bourne vs whatevercommonactionfilm

    Honestly if you change his name in the film nobody would even think of it as a Bond film.

    I enjoy the film nonetheless, it's highly entertaining and even if it's by far the greatest failure in the series (concerning making a proper Bond film) it still is watchable BECAUSE it is the "afterbirth" from Casino Royale and is therefore connected to it, that helps, that saves QOS. Otherwise I may not even watch it ever again.

    You pretty much knocked it out of the park there. Craig's first two Bond films don't receive nearly enough criticism. I think it's because a darker emotional Bond has been tried before twice, and both times failed. So when Craig came along and made a gritty Bond film that was a success, a lot of people became instant disciples. In their minds, Craig is a grand leader who finally ushered in this type of Bond that we have all been yearning for. I have seen people try and downplay any criticisms of Craig as "nitpicking", which is of course done to interpretation. Anything to obscure or distract, or muddy the waters. I've also witnessed some shifting of blame away from the producers and Craig, to unforeseen circumstances like the writers strike. It's all an attempt to maintain a halo above Craig's head as the chosen one. Now, I have no problems with Craig. He is decent, but it's the messiah image that has been built around him, as the second coming of Connery that becomes tiresome. He's just another Bond actor like the other's, with upsides and downsides. But for some, that's insufficient. Like I say, I think Craig holds a special emotional grip on some people because he is the first one to make a realistic Bond work. How can they be critical of someone who has delivered what they have been waiting for for so long? They feel indebted in some way, and I think that's where all this mental gymnastics come from.

    Sounds reasonably to me. You know, I think I very much happen to agree with you.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2017 Posts: 23,883
    Milovy wrote: »
    Maybe a controversial opinion: CR didn't need a follow-up. There were no loose ends that needed resolving. It wasn't a cliffhanger, but rather an open ending. Bond catches the guy responsible for Vesper's betrayal and recovers the money. Roll credits. Next story, please.

    I know some people thought it was a good idea for EON to attempt what they failed at with OHMSS/DAF - that is, let Bond get his revenge. Well, he effectively gets his revenge before CR even ends. QoS is just a superfluous elaboration on that and raises more questions than it answers.

    I simply don't think direct sequels hold any appeal in the world of Bond. Craig's films can be clearly divided into the ones that were hits (CR and SF) and the ones that were received more lukewarmly (QoS and SP). It's not a coincidence that Craig's best films stand alone, while QoS and SP - basically multi-million dollar postscripts to CR and SF - are largely forgotten.
    Agreed and I don't think it's a controversial opinion at all. As I said somewhere recently, EON appear to have been stuck in a loop due to the critical success CR received.

    They've basically been trying to sprinkle stardust from that initial film throughout the Craig era, in an attempt to retain the credibility that they rediscovered then. SF was admittedly different & owed its roaring blockbuster success as much to Nolan's groundbreaking TDK as it did to Mendes, who saw an opportunity to craft a grand melodramatic soap opera vision with M's death.

    CR was the origin story. They should have moved on from it, rather than trying to make the entire Craig era one big self contained origin effort (which it is now, 11 years later).
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,297
    bondjames wrote: »
    Milovy wrote: »
    Maybe a controversial opinion: CR didn't need a follow-up. There were no loose ends that needed resolving. It wasn't a cliffhanger, but rather an open ending. Bond catches the guy responsible for Vesper's betrayal and recovers the money. Roll credits. Next story, please.

    I know some people thought it was a good idea for EON to attempt what they failed at with OHMSS/DAF - that is, let Bond get his revenge. Well, he effectively gets his revenge before CR even ends. QoS is just a superfluous elaboration on that and raises more questions than it answers.

    I simply don't think direct sequels hold any appeal in the world of Bond. Craig's films can be clearly divided into the ones that were hits (CR and SF) and the ones that were received more lukewarmly (QoS and SP). It's not a coincidence that Craig's best films stand alone, while QoS and SP - basically multi-million dollar postscripts to CR and SF - are largely forgotten.
    Agreed and I don't think it's a controversial opinion at all. As I said somewhere recently, EON appear to have been stuck in a loop due to the critical success CR received.

    They've basically been trying to sprinkle stardust from that initial film throughout the Craig era, in an attempt to retain the credibility that they rediscovered then. SF was admittedly different & owed its roaring blockbuster success as much to Nolan's groundbreaking TDK as it did to Mendes, who saw an opportunity to craft a grand melodramatic soap opera vision with M's death.

    CR was the origin story. They should have moved on from it, rather than trying to make the entire Craig era one big self contained origin effort (which it is now, 11 years later).

    Well said. With the exception of SF, Eon has not had the confidence of its own CR storytelling (which was largely Fleming, with a big assist from Haggis and Campbell), so instead, we are being subjected to an endless origin storyline with the characters who worked so well in CR (Vesper, Mathis, Leiter, White).

    Eon has yet to create a major character in QoS-SF as memorable as any of the major characters in CR.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,120
    Don't think this is all that controversial, but I think all the personal angles work well in OHMSS, LTK and CR because at that point it always felt like it was something different. If you do it every other movie, it starts to get tiresome and maybe even slightly pretentious.
  • BMW_with_missilesBMW_with_missiles All the usual refinements.
    Posts: 3,000
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Don't think this is all that controversial, but I think all the personal angles work well in OHMSS, LTK and CR because at that point it always felt like it was something different. If you do it every other movie, it starts to get tiresome and maybe even slightly pretentious.

    Agreed. In fact I'd add that it's very pretentious. People complain that the formula is a tired cliche, but nothing is more tired than the same soap-opera-esque emotional tropes over and over again. We get it. Craig-Bond is an emotionally damaged individual. Move on already EON.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    About QOS:

    While I overall think the 24 films are alright the way they are, QOS is the one I would scrap if such a thing was possible.

    EON failed already in CR to a great extend with the re-boot nonsense.
    Craig was 38 and way too old to be a rookie 00. That's just for starters. And there is so much more really.

    But about QOS. It's like a TV episode has continued the story of a cinematic epic.
    Sure with a high budget and good production value but still.

    Craig is not Bond (hahaha) in QOS at all. Maybe in one or two scenes it feels like he is. (sorry couldn't resist :) )
    The rest is bloody stupid Die Hard vs Jason Bourne vs whatevercommonactionfilm

    Honestly if you change his name in the film nobody would even think of it as a Bond film.

    I enjoy the film nonetheless, it's highly entertaining and even if it's by far the greatest failure in the series (concerning making a proper Bond film) it still is watchable BECAUSE it is the "afterbirth" from Casino Royale and is therefore connected to it, that helps, that saves QOS. Otherwise I may not even watch it ever again.

    You pretty much knocked it out of the park there. Craig's first two Bond films don't receive nearly enough criticism. I think it's because a darker emotional Bond has been tried before twice, and both times failed. So when Craig came along and made a gritty Bond film that was a success, a lot of people became instant disciples. In their minds, Craig is a grand leader who finally ushered in this type of Bond that we have all been yearning for. I have seen people try and downplay any criticisms of Craig as "nitpicking", which is of course done to interpretation. Anything to obscure or distract, or muddy the waters. I've also witnessed some shifting of blame away from the producers and Craig, to unforeseen circumstances like the writers strike. It's all an attempt to maintain a halo above Craig's head as the chosen one. Now, I have no problems with Craig. He is decent, but it's the messiah image that has been built around him, as the second coming of Connery that becomes tiresome. He's just another Bond actor like the other's, with upsides and downsides. But for some, that's insufficient. Like I say, I think Craig holds a special emotional grip on some people because he is the first one to make a realistic Bond work. How can they be critical of someone who has delivered what they have been waiting for for so long? They feel indebted in some way, and I think that's where all this mental gymnastics come from.

    I don't get the QoS revisionism, it's simply not up to scratch in my book. Craig, however, is probably the best thing about it.

    CR on the other hand, is a top three Bond film on every level. Style, panache, energy, excitement, intrigue... it delivers everything you'd expect and more in a completely fresh way. Calling out Craig for being a rookie at 38 - I don't care, it's irrelevant. The film is a blast from start to finish. A jewel in the crown. An exceptional Bond film.
  • edited June 2017 Posts: 11,189
    I think there's a lot of strong aspects to QOS. It's well acted with some good ideas and memorable scenes, but as a whole I still find it disappointing. it feels like it's been roughly spliced together and consequently doesn't flow well at all.

    Not one I'd choose to go and rewatch.
  • edited June 2017 Posts: 337
    Yeah, for me Quantum of Solace is terrible. Dull, dreary and excessively melodramatic. Poor villain, terrible editing and one of the more incomprehensible plots. Probably the worst theme song and I don't even remember anything from the score. It's a shame, really, since Craig and Dench each turned in a fine performance, but they deserved so much better. At least the Quantum arc succeeds in making Bond humane, even though I'm not a fan of that approach in general. Unfortunately, the films since Casino Royale have been clinging to it like a three year-old child does with its mother. They just aren't willing to be bold and just go out with it. I liked the fact that Spectre began moving away from the overtly gritty and "realistic" theme, but it was still dreary and still couldn't get past the CR arc. Blofeld taking credit for the last three films was pointless and unnecessary, IMHO.

    My controversial opinion would be my low opinion of Licence to Kill. I know it's a fan favourite because it departs from the "camp", except it kind of doesn't. Not sure if it's John Glen or someone else who is responsible, but they were a few pointless Roger Moore scenes in the film — admittedly less than in The Living Daylights, but it still doesn't make much sense. Dalton just isn't meant for those scenes.

    I get that it's meant to be dark in a revolutionary way, but couldn't they have stopped with all the blood and gore? For me it was completely unnecessary to see people being diced or blown up so much to get the fact that they were headed down a dark road. And sometimes I feel like the gory excess was there to compensate for the presence of the Roger Moore scenes... a double negative for me.

    That aside, while I respect Timothy Dalton as an actor (even moreso now that I've seen Penny Dreadful) his take on Bond was just too dour for me. Too lacking in charisma, and he tried to play Bond like a romantic hero. The whole love triangle thing between Lupe and Pam didn't impress me. And it's been a while since I've seen it, but I recall a sub-plot with Wayne Newton's character that detracted from the revenge story.

    Just overly drab and dreary for me; I simply felt like they were trying way too hard to be different. And I just don't need that from Bond.

    On the other hand, the whole "going rogue" thing was at least fresh back in '89. I feel that there's too much rogueness in Bond now, and it's not necessary. Again, part of the whole "not being able to let go" miasma.
  • Posts: 15,117
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Don't think this is all that controversial, but I think all the personal angles work well in OHMSS, LTK and CR because at that point it always felt like it was something different. If you do it every other movie, it starts to get tiresome and maybe even slightly pretentious.

    My own controversial opinion: LTK's personal angle is no less commonplace as in the later installments and a very common trope at that time (drug dealer hurting the hero who goes in a personal vendetta). Other controversial opinion: I always felt it was a non-Bond movie where Bond stumbles upon and must go beyond cameo appearance to complete it.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    edited June 2017 Posts: 7,120
    LTK for me is "angry-and-hurt Bond" done right. Goes into the personal direction but never loses its charm (i.e. Llewelynn's finst hour) Absolutely love that film. The whole vendetta got me truly hooked on the screen. One of my favourites. I am a fierce Dalton defender of course.
  • Posts: 15,117
    Another controversial opinion: Q is out of character in LTK.
  • BMW_with_missilesBMW_with_missiles All the usual refinements.
    Posts: 3,000
    Yeah, for me Quantum of Solace is terrible. Dull, dreary and excessively melodramatic. Poor villain, terrible editing and one of the more incomprehensible plots. Probably the worst theme song and I don't even remember anything from the score. It's a shame, really, since Craig and Dench each turned in a fine performance, but they deserved so much better. At least the Quantum arc succeeds in making Bond humane, even though I'm not a fan of that approach in general. Unfortunately, the films since Casino Royale have been clinging to it like a three year-old child does with its mother. They just aren't willing to be bold and just go out with it. I liked the fact that Spectre began moving away from the overtly gritty and "realistic" theme, but it was still dreary and still couldn't get past the CR arc. Blofeld taking credit for the last three films was pointless and unnecessary, IMHO.

    My controversial opinion would be my low opinion of Licence to Kill. I know it's a fan favourite because it departs from the "camp", except it kind of doesn't. Not sure if it's John Glen or someone else who is responsible, but they were a few pointless Roger Moore scenes in the film — admittedly less than in The Living Daylights, but it still doesn't make much sense. Dalton just isn't meant for those scenes.

    I get that it's meant to be dark in a revolutionary way, but couldn't they have stopped with all the blood and gore? For me it was completely unnecessary to see people being diced or blown up so much to get the fact that they were headed down a dark road. And sometimes I feel like the gory excess was there to compensate for the presence of the Roger Moore scenes... a double negative for me.

    That aside, while I respect Timothy Dalton as an actor (even moreso now that I've seen Penny Dreadful) his take on Bond was just too dour for me. Too lacking in charisma, and he tried to play Bond like a romantic hero. The whole love triangle thing between Lupe and Pam didn't impress me. And it's been a while since I've seen it, but I recall a sub-plot with Wayne Newton's character that detracted from the revenge story.

    Just overly drab and dreary for me; I simply felt like they were trying way too hard to be different. And I just don't need that from Bond.

    On the other hand, the whole "going rogue" thing was at least fresh back in '89. I feel that there's too much rogueness in Bond now, and it's not necessary. Again, part of the whole "not being able to let go" miasma.

    Excellent post!
  • Posts: 12,837
    RC7 wrote: »
    About QOS:

    While I overall think the 24 films are alright the way they are, QOS is the one I would scrap if such a thing was possible.

    EON failed already in CR to a great extend with the re-boot nonsense.
    Craig was 38 and way too old to be a rookie 00. That's just for starters. And there is so much more really.

    But about QOS. It's like a TV episode has continued the story of a cinematic epic.
    Sure with a high budget and good production value but still.

    Craig is not Bond (hahaha) in QOS at all. Maybe in one or two scenes it feels like he is. (sorry couldn't resist :) )
    The rest is bloody stupid Die Hard vs Jason Bourne vs whatevercommonactionfilm

    Honestly if you change his name in the film nobody would even think of it as a Bond film.

    I enjoy the film nonetheless, it's highly entertaining and even if it's by far the greatest failure in the series (concerning making a proper Bond film) it still is watchable BECAUSE it is the "afterbirth" from Casino Royale and is therefore connected to it, that helps, that saves QOS. Otherwise I may not even watch it ever again.

    You pretty much knocked it out of the park there. Craig's first two Bond films don't receive nearly enough criticism. I think it's because a darker emotional Bond has been tried before twice, and both times failed. So when Craig came along and made a gritty Bond film that was a success, a lot of people became instant disciples. In their minds, Craig is a grand leader who finally ushered in this type of Bond that we have all been yearning for. I have seen people try and downplay any criticisms of Craig as "nitpicking", which is of course done to interpretation. Anything to obscure or distract, or muddy the waters. I've also witnessed some shifting of blame away from the producers and Craig, to unforeseen circumstances like the writers strike. It's all an attempt to maintain a halo above Craig's head as the chosen one. Now, I have no problems with Craig. He is decent, but it's the messiah image that has been built around him, as the second coming of Connery that becomes tiresome. He's just another Bond actor like the other's, with upsides and downsides. But for some, that's insufficient. Like I say, I think Craig holds a special emotional grip on some people because he is the first one to make a realistic Bond work. How can they be critical of someone who has delivered what they have been waiting for for so long? They feel indebted in some way, and I think that's where all this mental gymnastics come from.

    I don't get the QoS revisionism, it's simply not up to scratch in my book. Craig, however, is probably the best thing about it.

    CR on the other hand, is a top three Bond film on every level. Style, panache, energy, excitement, intrigue... it delivers everything you'd expect and more in a completely fresh way. Calling out Craig for being a rookie at 38 - I don't care, it's irrelevant. The film is a blast from start to finish. A jewel in the crown. An exceptional Bond film.

    Yeah I just can't see QoS as anything other than a missed opportunity. It's just a mess imo. I genuinely think that Forster is the worst thing to happen to the franchise. At least Tamahori was coming from a place of love with DAD (watch it with the commentary on, gave me a newfound respect for the man). Forster deliberately tried to shy away from almost anything that makes a Bond film a Bond film (some of that wasn't his fault though, like the melody-less theme song). And to top it all of it wasn't even a good film in its own right. Could have been if he'd developed the million sub plots past a couple of scenes, picked one main plot thread to focus on, given the film time to breath, actually allowed us to see what was going on in the action scenes (maybe he was trying to disguise the fact that there's no variety and that it's just chase scene after chase scene), etc.

    QoS is the only Bond film that makes me legimately angry. I can find something to enjoy in most of them but I really properly despise this one. My least favourite by far.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,395
    The best parts of QoS are the bits that have nothing to do with CR. The scenes with Felix on the plane were great, as was the Opera. Besides that, the film is not even barely good.
  • Excellent post!

    Thank you, kind sir!

    Forgot another opinion of mine that's bound to be controversial: FYEO is the worst of the Moore films, by a noticeable margin.
  • Posts: 12,837
    Excellent post!

    Thank you, kind sir!

    Forgot another opinion of mine that's bound to be controversial: FYEO is the worst of the Moore films, by a noticeable margin.

    I disagree (TMWTGG and MR are much worse imo) but I'm not a fan at all and I do think it might be the most overrated Bond film. Gets so much praise for being gritty and serious (except it isn't at all) that people seem to forget how flawed it is. The plot and the villain are so, so, so forgettable, it's as if the writers thought the slight change in direction was enough and they needn't bother coming up with a compelling story. I also think that Conti was just the wrong choice to score a Bond film, and the PTS is one of the worst in the series. I do like the whole sequence at the mansion and the escape in the citeron, the scenes with the smugglers and the climbing sequence. Moore also does a brilliant job. Other than that it's the definition of mediocrity.

    Genuinely will never understand why some fans think it's Moore's best just because it's sort of grittier (but again really isn't thst dark and serious at all) when TSWLM and OP are amazing films, two of the very best in the series. I think LALD, flawed as it is, is also a lot better than FYEO, and even AVTAK is a lot more memorable and entertaining.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    edited June 2017 Posts: 7,120
    The best parts of QoS are the bits that have nothing to do with CR. The scenes with Felix on the plane were great, as was the Opera. Besides that, the film is not even barely good.

    I think the scenes with Mathis were great too.
  • edited June 2017 Posts: 337
    Excellent post!

    Thank you, kind sir!

    Forgot another opinion of mine that's bound to be controversial: FYEO is the worst of the Moore films, by a noticeable margin.

    I disagree (TMWTGG and MR are much worse imo) but I'm not a fan at all and I do think it might be the most overrated Bond film. Gets so much praise for being gritty and serious (except it isn't at all) that people seem to forget how flawed it is. The plot and the villain are so, so, so forgettable, it's as if the writers thought the slight change in direction was enough and they needn't bother coming up with a compelling story. I also think that Conti was just the wrong choice to score a Bond film, and the PTS is one of the worst in the series. I do like the whole sequence at the mansion and the escape in the citeron, the scenes with the smugglers and the climbing sequence. Moore also does a brilliant job. Other than that it's the definition of mediocrity.

    Genuinely will never understand why some fans think it's Moore's best just because it's sort of grittier (but again really isn't thst dark and serious at all) when TSWLM and OP are amazing films, two of the very best in the series. I think LALD, flawed as it is, is also a lot better than FYEO, and even AVTAK is a lot more memorable and entertaining.

    We do kind of agree here. I think it's a solid film in terms of raw production quality, but it's the most tonally inconsistent of Moore's films (Moore's films in general have varying tones throughout them, but this one is the most inconsistent). It's seemingly afraid to devolve into camp and looks to head into a grittier and more realistic realm, only it abandons that whenever it wants to and we get back to the silliness on a whim. Plus it's book-ended with terrible scenes (the Blofeld and Thatcher ones), and the score's probably the worst of any of Moore's films.

    There's a couple of nice scenes, but nothing that Moore hasn't done before. Cold kills? Stromberg in TSWLM may well have been worse than Locque. Underwater scenes, car chases, high altitude stunts, etc. we've all had. I agree with you that the ATAC plot is highly reminiscent of the solar energy device in TMWTGG and the microfilm in TSWLM, so that part definitely lacked originality. Kristatos' nature as a villain was unprecedented, though, but I agree that he was otherwise worse than all of the villains we had from LALD to MR.

    My main problem is that they're not even committed enough to the "dark and gritty" approach to call the film that. They bounce between cold kills and realism to cars with self-destruct anti-theft features, Margaret Thatcher carrying on a phone conversation with a parrot and Blofeld offering Bond a delicatessen in stainless steel. Worse intro and outro to any of Moore's Bonds, possibly to any Bond ever (and given that we've got things like "Christmas only comes once a year", that's saying something).
  • Posts: 15,117
    FYEO might be overrated here (personally it's one of my favourite of Moore but I understand it's a flawed movie), but in the general public I don't think it's overrated at all. For me it has the virtue of bringing Bond back to espionage and ditching science fiction.
  • BMW_with_missilesBMW_with_missiles All the usual refinements.
    Posts: 3,000
    RC7 wrote: »
    About QOS:

    While I overall think the 24 films are alright the way they are, QOS is the one I would scrap if such a thing was possible.

    EON failed already in CR to a great extend with the re-boot nonsense.
    Craig was 38 and way too old to be a rookie 00. That's just for starters. And there is so much more really.

    But about QOS. It's like a TV episode has continued the story of a cinematic epic.
    Sure with a high budget and good production value but still.

    Craig is not Bond (hahaha) in QOS at all. Maybe in one or two scenes it feels like he is. (sorry couldn't resist :) )
    The rest is bloody stupid Die Hard vs Jason Bourne vs whatevercommonactionfilm

    Honestly if you change his name in the film nobody would even think of it as a Bond film.

    I enjoy the film nonetheless, it's highly entertaining and even if it's by far the greatest failure in the series (concerning making a proper Bond film) it still is watchable BECAUSE it is the "afterbirth" from Casino Royale and is therefore connected to it, that helps, that saves QOS. Otherwise I may not even watch it ever again.

    You pretty much knocked it out of the park there. Craig's first two Bond films don't receive nearly enough criticism. I think it's because a darker emotional Bond has been tried before twice, and both times failed. So when Craig came along and made a gritty Bond film that was a success, a lot of people became instant disciples. In their minds, Craig is a grand leader who finally ushered in this type of Bond that we have all been yearning for. I have seen people try and downplay any criticisms of Craig as "nitpicking", which is of course done to interpretation. Anything to obscure or distract, or muddy the waters. I've also witnessed some shifting of blame away from the producers and Craig, to unforeseen circumstances like the writers strike. It's all an attempt to maintain a halo above Craig's head as the chosen one. Now, I have no problems with Craig. He is decent, but it's the messiah image that has been built around him, as the second coming of Connery that becomes tiresome. He's just another Bond actor like the other's, with upsides and downsides. But for some, that's insufficient. Like I say, I think Craig holds a special emotional grip on some people because he is the first one to make a realistic Bond work. How can they be critical of someone who has delivered what they have been waiting for for so long? They feel indebted in some way, and I think that's where all this mental gymnastics come from.

    I don't get the QoS revisionism, it's simply not up to scratch in my book. Craig, however, is probably the best thing about it.

    CR on the other hand, is a top three Bond film on every level. Style, panache, energy, excitement, intrigue... it delivers everything you'd expect and more in a completely fresh way. Calling out Craig for being a rookie at 38 - I don't care, it's irrelevant. The film is a blast from start to finish. A jewel in the crown. An exceptional Bond film.

    Yeah I just can't see QoS as anything other than a missed opportunity. It's just a mess imo. I genuinely think that Forster is the worst thing to happen to the franchise. At least Tamahori was coming from a place of love with DAD (watch it with the commentary on, gave me a newfound respect for the man). Forster deliberately tried to shy away from almost anything that makes a Bond film a Bond film (some of that wasn't his fault though, like the melody-less theme song). And to top it all of it wasn't even a good film in its own right. Could have been if he'd developed the million sub plots past a couple of scenes, picked one main plot thread to focus on, given the film time to breath, actually allowed us to see what was going on in the action scenes (maybe he was trying to disguise the fact that there's no variety and that it's just chase scene after chase scene), etc.

    QoS is the only Bond film that makes me legimately angry. I can find something to enjoy in most of them but I really properly despise this one. My least favourite by far.

    I agree wholeheartedly. QOS was only the third Bond film I had ever seen when I first watched it, and it nearly killed my interest in the franchise (I'm so glad I pressed onward into the good Bond films). I just recently re-watched "Everything Wrong With Quantum of Solace" on YouTube (If anyone is unfamiliar with the series I'd highly recommend looking it up) and it really is amazing what a mess the film is. Someone in the comments mentioned that, apparently, each shot averages out to only two seconds. I believe it, considering what a choppy, unpleasant experience it is to watch.
  • edited June 2017 Posts: 337
    Not to mention it bounces back and forth between paying homage to Bond tropes (Strawberry Fields getting oiled) and completely ruining them (that god-awful gunbarrel). I don't remember even recall the part where he says "Bond, James Bond" if he does at all.

    A very shallow attempt at following CR's footsteps, indeed.
  • edited June 2017 Posts: 337
    Ludovico wrote: »
    FYEO might be overrated here (personally it's one of my favourite of Moore but I understand it's a flawed movie), but in the general public I don't think it's overrated at all. For me it has the virtue of bringing Bond back to espionage and ditching science fiction.

    Fair enough on the science-fiction. I suppose one could say it was perhaps the only one of Moore's films to not be blatantly influenced by the times (AVTAK and TSWLM are also somewhat less guilty of it than the others), which can be considered a mark in its favour as well.

    Regarding espionage, Bond does exactly that in the preceding film Moonraker, so I'm not sure what you're talking about there.
  • Heck, so is M (at least for Robert Brown, never mind Bernard Lee).

    More reasons to drag the film down. :P
  • Posts: 15,117
    MR is borderline pure scifi with some minor spying elements. Even moreso than YOLT or TSWLM. In FYEO we have a plausible Cold War espionage story. It belongs to the right genre.
  • Ludovico wrote: »
    MR is borderline pure scifi with some minor spying elements. Even moreso than YOLT or TSWLM. In FYEO we have a plausible Cold War espionage story. It belongs to the right genre.

    The last third, perhaps. But up to and including Venice, I found it suitably spy-like. But I have to concede that it feels more inspired by Star Wars than the Cold War.

    But in my opinion, that's more than made up for by the fact that MR is more tonally consistent than FYEO.
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