Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,247
    To be honest I think this 'they didn't even try to make a proper Bond-film'is getting old. People making a whole lot of fuss about some chap Bond knew as a kid who happened to kill his father and calls him 'brother'to rile him up is 'far worse' then finding an ex-girlfriend sleeping with your enemy or an old collegue and friend betraying you? For me the latter would be far, far more personal. But it's time to bash Craig for we've been waiting for a new film too long and we've got nothing better to do then to muse about the last film. Exactly as it went after DAD and the four year gap we had then.
    I find @Strog's analysis far more interesting: people these days indeed don't trust the government anymore. politicians are seen not only as bad, (that's nothing new) but also as money-grabbers who'd sell their mother, like bankers were at the start of the crisis. That makes it far more difficult to make an endearing and still fun movie about a government agent. QoS I think nailed it when Bond was basically the only one still sticking to his duty: protecting the people against power abuse by not only Greene, Medrano and Beam, but also his own minister. It is strange that QoS gets so much hate here.
    I think the next film would be an enormous success if they had an European parliament member as the bad guy, perhaps one of Blofeld's deciples. Personally I liked the underlying connections, allthough it didn't work that well with Silva, but it did give a Dr. No/Thunderball feel to it: operatives of a bigger scheme beeing taken out. They could go back to that, even though Blofeld's in jail.

    And for good measure:
    a section is standing organisation
    A programme is a big project which will be evaluated, and may or may not end up as standing organisation.

    So, as it's been more then 50 years and Fleming wrote it like that: It's the 00 section.
    And it should fall directly under the head of MI6, M. This indeed is my biggest irritation in SP. They got the basics wrong!

    Civil servant CR
  • BMW_with_missilesBMW_with_missiles All the usual refinements.
    Posts: 3,000
    People making a whole lot of fuss about some chap Bond knew as a kid who happened to kill his father and calls him 'brother'to rile him up is 'far worse' then finding an ex-girlfriend sleeping with your enemy or an old collegue and friend betraying you?

    He killed his father because he was jealous of his favorable treatment of Bond, and this drove him to be "the author of all Bond's pain" in his adult life. All that over something so trivial. A soap opera plot at it's finest.
    giphy.gif
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,996
    jobo wrote: »
    Here is another one that might cause controversy:

    LTK has the best plot and story in the series.

    (And the film as a whole is far more than just "solid", mind you...)

    That certainly would provoke controversy since LTK has the most mundane, pedestrian and unoriginal 'plot' in the series.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    Well that's just a funny line from Q, but it's also him voicing the party line. The bureaucrats are quick to criticize the actions of MI6 and Q Branch and Bond, and seek to eliminate them when they fail.
    It's the same sort of thing as Bond in THUNDERBALL being treated like a red-headed stepchild at home when he's out in the world doing his best, just on a larger scale. By the time of SPECTRE they're ready to do away with the Double-Oh Section itself, and now Q knows better. Plus it's good for the story.

    It's called the Double-oh Program now mate. Get with the err program.

    Come to think of it I think that was actually more offensive than the stepbrother thing.

    And to think fans deny the Bourne influence.
  • RoadphillRoadphill United Kingdom
    Posts: 984
    @JamesBondKenya I wouldn't say it has a great plot, but on paper it makes more sense than Skyfall's.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited August 2017 Posts: 9,117
    People making a whole lot of fuss about some chap Bond knew as a kid who happened to kill his father and calls him 'brother'to rile him up is 'far worse' then finding an ex-girlfriend sleeping with your enemy or an old collegue and friend betraying you?

    Wouldn't have been a problem if the guy had been just Franz Oberhauser (although it would still be appallingly contrived) but to reduce Blofeld to a whiny teenager who Bond once beat at Monopoly is pitiful. As Partridge might have put it 'Stop getting Fleming wrong!'

    Apart from anything else is it ever really cleared up whether Bond coming back into Blofeld's life is by design or coincidence?

    Either way it's diabolical writing as with the former Blofeld has based his entire life and crime organisation on the hope that one day MI6 will send 007 not 008 to investigate Le Chiffre. Perhaps he put Le Chiffre up to making his money back at the casino knowing full well that Bond was the best card player in the service so would get assigned to the job?

    If it's the latter then he was just minding his own business being an international crime lord and lo and behold who is the bloke tasked by the government to bring him down? Only that kid who used to live with him for a few weeks and nicked his father's affection. Who'd have thunk it, that blue eyed little orphan just happened to go on and work for the security services and now is in prime position to interfere with his plans so why not conveniently get some revenge while you're he's at it?

    Honestly the more you pick at this festering scab the more it bleeds.
    jobo wrote: »
    Here is another one that might cause controversy:

    LTK has the best plot and story in the series.

    (And the film as a whole is far more than just "solid", mind you...)

    That certainly would provoke controversy since LTK has the most mundane, pedestrian and unoriginal 'plot' in the series.

    That's fair I suppose. 'Out for revenge because they killed his friend/brother/parents/wife' was the standard plot for the average Van Damme film back in the day.

    The Donnie Brasco elements of Bond infiltrating Sanchez's organisation and his stitching up of Krest are interesting although his whole plan collapses in seconds if Dario doesn't go AWOL for the majority of the film.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,247
    @BMW_with_missiles and @TheWizardOfIce let's be clear, I'm no fan of this construct at all, but I think it's also blown out of proportion. Blofeld says these things to rile Bond up, not because they were true. It's like the meteorite scene: Blofeld goes on and on about this stone always set on it's path and destiny to be all destructive (as if!) and Bond just remarks that the stone ended up beeing there, just a stone.

    I'm no fan of this Blofeld as he has nothing in common with the previous ones or Fleming's creation, buttaking his words seriously is taking it too far. He pretends to be all powerful and to have 'tortured'Bond (author of all his pain) but as Bond we shouldn't be impressed or take his words for it at all.

    So it isn't as bad as it is made out to be here, allthough it is misuse of a name which once harboured a great character.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited August 2017 Posts: 23,883
    Birdleson wrote: »
    SP was dull as all Hell to me. At their best and worst the Brosnan films weren't dull (well, after a certain number of viewings I can't say that about TWINE anymore), goofy, at times, but not dull. And I'm not talking solely in terms of the action, I'm talking characterization and dialogue, as well.
    I feel the same way and it's especially shocking given it's a Sam Mendes film. Quite the opposite of what I expected from him.
    I find @Strog's analysis far more interesting: people these days indeed don't trust the government anymore. politicians are seen not only as bad, (that's nothing new) but also as money-grabbers who'd sell their mother, like bankers were at the start of the crisis. That makes it far more difficult to make an endearing and still fun movie about a government agent. QoS I think nailed it when Bond was basically the only one still sticking to his duty: protecting the people against power abuse by not only Greene, Medrano and Beam, but also his own minister. It is strange that QoS gets so much hate here.
    I think the next film would be an enormous success if they had an European parliament member as the bad guy, perhaps one of Blofeld's deciples. Personally I liked the underlying connections, allthough it didn't work that well with Silva, but it did give a Dr. No/Thunderball feel to it: operatives of a bigger scheme beeing taken out. They could go back to that, even though Blofeld's in jail.
    I think the anti-authority thing has been completely 'played out' over the past decade and a half. It's an old trope. Even the cop shows of the 70s and 80s were doing it. Bourne made it fashionable again, and Bond took the bait and ran with it. All good things must come to an end, lest they get stale.

    I agree with you on a European Parliament baddie in the next one though. Post-Brexit I can see it. Werner Herzog could play it well. Someone with a grudge against the UK.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Brosnan was reportedly itching for an ON HER MAJESTY'S SECRET SERVICE or CASINO ROYALE story to tell.

    He wanted to remake OHMSS, as the original was so bad. That is how his feud with Lazenby started.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited August 2017 Posts: 23,883
    Brosnan was reportedly itching for an ON HER MAJESTY'S SECRET SERVICE or CASINO ROYALE story to tell.

    He wanted to remake OHMSS, as the original was so bad. That is how his feud with Lazenby started.
    They shouldn't directly remake any Bond film. Bringing back Blofeld was bad enough. The originals are classics, and they should be left alone imho.

    They seem to be caught between a rock and a hard place with Bond's womanizing ways. It's almost as if women must have meaning to him now, for fear of turning off the female audience if they are seen as 'disposable pleasures'.

    I think they should give the female audience more credit. They will embrace old school Bond as much as men. Just have the confidence to go for it.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    @BMW_with_missiles and @TheWizardOfIce let's be clear, I'm no fan of this construct at all, but I think it's also blown out of proportion. Blofeld says these things to rile Bond up, not because they were true. It's like the meteorite scene: Blofeld goes on and on about this stone always set on it's path and destiny to be all destructive (as if!) and Bond just remarks that the stone ended up beeing there, just a stone.

    I'm no fan of this Blofeld as he has nothing in common with the previous ones or Fleming's creation, buttaking his words seriously is taking it too far. He pretends to be all powerful and to have 'tortured'Bond (author of all his pain) but as Bond we shouldn't be impressed or take his words for it at all.

    So it isn't as bad as it is made out to be here, although it is misuse of a name which once harboured a great character.

    Fair enough. That doesnt stop it being horrifically contrived that just by chance they went into the same business (but on opposite sides) and just happened to end up bumping into each other 30 years down the line.

    If Bond had joined MI5 instead of MI6 then they would never have bumped into each other again. Or if Bond had been worse at cards than one of the other 00s they would never have met again. Staggeringly lazy scriptwriting.
  • Posts: 787
    OK, here's one:

    Bond films are at their best when they're small and focused, rather than 'blockbusters.' Highpoints that many people agree on:
    -FRWL: a hunt for a typewriter, with a fistfight on a train as its centerpiece
    -CR: a card game against a bent financier who supports terrorism
    -OHMSS: a love story, set largely in one place

    When they go too broad, they end up with Bond turning into a machine-gun-toting killing machine, or bloated plotlines, or camp. Low points that many agree on include Bond In Space or Bond Driving an Invisible Car. The better strategy, looking at the film's history, has been to keep things contained.

    That's not to say that the films can't be colourful, exotic, or escapist - those things are at the heart of the franchise. Rather that it's important to give the actors space to perform, give the plot room to breathe, keep the stakes tangible, and focus in on something - location, macguffin, character, whatever - rather than being peripatetic.

    Discipline is key and smaller is usually better.
  • JamesBondKenyaJamesBondKenya Danny Boyle laughs to himself
    Posts: 2,730
    octofinger wrote: »
    OK, here's one:

    Bond films are at their best when they're small and focused, rather than 'blockbusters.' Highpoints that many people agree on:
    -FRWL: a hunt for a typewriter, with a fistfight on a train as its centerpiece
    -CR: a card game against a bent financier who supports terrorism
    -OHMSS: a love story, set largely in one place

    When they go too broad, they end up with Bond turning into a machine-gun-toting killing machine, or bloated plotlines, or camp. Low points that many agree on include Bond In Space or Bond Driving an Invisible Car. The better strategy, looking at the film's history, has been to keep things contained.

    That's not to say that the films can't be colourful, exotic, or escapist - those things are at the heart of the franchise. Rather that it's important to give the actors space to perform, give the plot room to breathe, keep the stakes tangible, and focus in on something - location, macguffin, character, whatever - rather than being peripatetic.

    Discipline is key and smaller is usually better.
    octofinger wrote: »
    OK, here's one:

    Bond films are at their best when they're small and focused, rather than 'blockbusters.' Highpoints that many people agree on:
    -FRWL: a hunt for a typewriter, with a fistfight on a train as its centerpiece
    -CR: a card game against a bent financier who supports terrorism
    -OHMSS: a love story, set largely in one place

    When they go too broad, they end up with Bond turning into a machine-gun-toting killing machine, or bloated plotlines, or camp. Low points that many agree on include Bond In Space or Bond Driving an Invisible Car. The better strategy, looking at the film's history, has been to keep things contained.

    That's not to say that the films can't be colourful, exotic, or escapist - those things are at the heart of the franchise. Rather that it's important to give the actors space to perform, give the plot room to breathe, keep the stakes tangible, and focus in on something - location, macguffin, character, whatever - rather than being peripatetic.

    Discipline is key and smaller is usually better.

    Thats exactly right because the books are the best. Thats why the should finish craig and start fresh with a new bond in the 50's and follow the books. Essentially FRWL but every book and for a new generation. I love the first three bond films and if they are able to recreate that tone in the modern day that would be incredible
  • edited August 2017 Posts: 1,162
    Is Spectre more or less a brosnan film with craig in it?

    Even though none of his films ,safe the second half of DAD, suffered from such a logical train wreck of script, he certainly would have given a more cheerful performance.
  • Posts: 1,162
    Or a modern Moore Bond film. The opening action. Mickey Mouse. The opera lover in the Fiat. The Aston Martin in the Tiber, with the flip parachute cast-off. The rodent interrogation.

    Your perception of the old Moore movies is obviously very different from mine. Remarkable!
  • MinionMinion Don't Hassle the Bond
    edited August 2017 Posts: 1,165
    Here's a new controversial opinion: Maurice Binder's openings, while generally good in concept, are always marred by sloppy execution. Silhouetted characters often disappear before fully off screen, and sometimes their hands and feet start glitching out (see TB and TSWLM). While rewatching OHMSS recently I noticed that only about half of the footage that rolls through the hourglass have a warping effect while the other half doesn't. Also, a static image of a girl randomly transitions into an exploding car (which repeats itself later). In AVTAK, when the ice woman appears the black background doesn't fully cover the screen (there's a light blue strip on the side). Those are just a few examples that come to mind.

    I wish Robert Brownjohn stuck around after Goldfinger.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,996
    Minion wrote: »
    Here's a new controversial opinion: Maurice Binder's openings, while generally good in concept, are always marred by sloppy execution. Silhouetted characters often disappear before fully off screen, and sometimes their hands and feet start glitching out (see TB and TSWLM). While rewatching OHMSS recently I noticed that only about half of the footage that rolls through the hourglass have a warping effect while the other half doesn't. Also, a static image of a girl randomly transitions into an exploding car (which repeats itself later). In AVTAK, when the ice woman appears the black background doesn't fully cover the screen (there's a light blue strip on the side). Those are just a few examples that come to mind.

    I wish Robert Brownjohn stuck around after Goldfinger.

    His last few were awful and dare I say, amateurish...?

    Loved his work on TB, YOLT, LALD and my all time favourite of his TSWLM.
  • JamesBondKenyaJamesBondKenya Danny Boyle laughs to himself
    Posts: 2,730
    If were gonna talk credits. Ive got some opinions. I hate the skyfall, spectre, and DAD credits sequence and i think frwl is the best one by far.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,996
    If were gonna talk credits. Ive got some opinions. I hate the skyfall, spectre, and DAD credits sequence and i think frwl is the best one by far.

    Really? I thought Skyfall had a fantastic credit sequence. It worked beautifully with the films story.
  • JamesBondKenyaJamesBondKenya Danny Boyle laughs to himself
    Posts: 2,730
    I just hate how they have bond roaming around in this cgi weird graveyard world. Its like a cartoon or video game. I much prefer girls dancing around in a pond or something
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited August 2017 Posts: 23,883
    I just hate how they have bond roaming around in this cgi weird graveyard world. Its like a cartoon or video game. I much prefer girls dancing around in a pond or something
    I'm all for girls dancing too.
    If were gonna talk credits. Ive got some opinions. I hate the skyfall, spectre, and DAD credits sequence and i think frwl is the best one by far.
    I really like the FRWL titles as well, mainly because it's instrumental and when the brassy Bond theme kicks in at the end it's brilliant. The gypsy girl silhouettes are a nice touch too. I thought it was very neat how they made the titles 'dance'.
  • Posts: 7,405
    Binder started repeating himself too much later on. But i wouldnt enjoy a Bond movie without seeing them!
    Have to admit i really like MK2 titles for QoS!
  • Posts: 16,149
    In my controversial opinion, Kleinman's titles are a bit overrated.
    I don't find the TND or SP titles to be any better than Binder's for, say AVTAK. In fact, I'd say AVTAK's titles are a bit more iconic in their imagery. As 1985 dated as those neon water pistols are now, the dancing flame lady is still an unforgettable image.
    I prefer the art of the lighting, the ladies, lasers and water to titles that were designed by CGI and the click of a mouse.
    In addition, Binder had an amazing knack for getting the women to undress for him. Much more suave than clicking a mouse.
  • MinionMinion Don't Hassle the Bond
    Posts: 1,165
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    Have to admit i really like MK2 titles for QoS!

    Me too, I never got the criticism. A Top Ten TS for me.

    Ditto!
  • Posts: 16,149
    Birdleson wrote: »
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    In my controversial opinion, Kleinman's titles are a bit overrated.
    I don't find the TND or SP titles to be any better than Binder's for, say AVTAK. In fact, I'd say AVTAK's titles are a bit more iconic in their imagery. As 1985 dated as those neon water pistols are now, the dancing flame lady is still an unforgettable image.
    I prefer the art of the lighting, the ladies, lasers and water to titles that were designed by CGI and the click of a mouse.
    In addition, Binder had an amazing knack for getting the women to undress for him. Much more suave than clicking a mouse.

    For me Binder started loosing it around LALD, but then made a resurgence with TSWLM (one of my favorites), and MR was pretty decent. After that they just got progressively worse.

    LALD is one of my favorites actually. TSWLM is epic. I must admit, though, I'm not as crazy about the FYEO titles. Having Sheena in the titles gives it more of a 1981 MTV video feel.........in fact I believe MTV simply used the title sequence sans credits as the video.
  • Posts: 7,405
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    Have to admit i really like MK2 titles for QoS!

    Me too, I never got the criticism. A Top Ten TS for me.

    Its probably the theme song that puts people off! But they are cool titles. Love the travelling bullet!
    TSWLM are great titles, Binder at his most playful.
  • MinionMinion Don't Hassle the Bond
    Posts: 1,165
    I like the intro TSWLM as well, but I'm always distracted by the hands and feet of the women swinging from the guns glitching like crazy. That's the best way I can describe it.
  • Posts: 16,149
    I think the QoS titles were meant more to invoke the spirit of Binder. I remember the return of the nude ladies being mentioned when the title designers were announced.
    I actually like the QoS titles as well.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    The QOS titles are great. I wouldn't mind if MK12 had another go at titles. Their gunbarrel though, bleck.
  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    Posts: 10,591
    Definitely don't want to see MK12 back. They're titles were fine, but came nowhere close to Kleinman's work.
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