Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    Goodnight is still the worst for me.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Denise Richards playing a nuclear physicist takes the cake for me.
    Agreed. Bloody awful. She's just not credible in the part for me. Halle laid it on a bit thick in DAD but I could buy her as a NSA agent.

    Same. Don't get me wrong, the acting was still horrid at times, but I can't imagine trying to sell "Yo mama" or "I think I got the thrust of it" while eyeballing Brosnan's package convincingly.
    Haha. True enough.
  • edited August 2017 Posts: 684
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Denise Richards playing a nuclear physicist takes the cake for me. Jinx is up there, but it wasn't the acting as much as it was a bad script. Great acting can only salvage so much (see: Waltz in SP. Bad writing only gets you so far.)
    I see it in the same script/acting way, but reach the opposite conclusion. Maybe I forgive acting in films more easily in general than I do writing? If EON had continued their practice of dubbing the lead actress, Denise Richards = averted (better script). Meanwhile, Jinx would still be a disaster (I agree the acting is better), ergo I end up forgiving Richards.

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Strog wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Denise Richards playing a nuclear physicist takes the cake for me. Jinx is up there, but it wasn't the acting as much as it was a bad script. Great acting can only salvage so much (see: Waltz in SP. Bad writing only gets you so far.)
    I see it in the same script/acting way, but reach the opposite conclusion. Maybe I forgive acting in films more easily in general than I do writing? If EON had continued their practice of dubbing the lead actress, Denise Richards = averted (better script). Meanwhile, Jinx would still be a disaster (I agree the acting is better), ergo I end up forgiving Richards.
    That is an interesting perspective that I hadn't considered before. Richards voice and delivery is annoying no doubt. Nikki Van Der Zyl in particular was phenomenal in the early films and allowed me to forgive a lot.
    Strog wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Arguably they did switch it up in the 80's (I believe Cubby mentioned that the way they had done things for almost 20 years had run its course with MR), but to lesser financial success with Glen.
    Rather than, "Oh well we needed to change it up," I've always wondered if the post-MR direction of the franchise (and the accompanying loss of cinematic magic) was more about Cubby going, "Right. I'm in my 70s. I'm retiring soon. Love to keep making Bond pictures forever but hey ho. Already been in it longer than I thought. Time to save my money, especially since we're not the only big budget, multi-film series in town anymore. We're not doing MR numbers again. Pitch it as 'Bond coming back to earth' and tell Ken Adam not to spend another dime on a nail."
    I hadn't thought about it that way before. You may have a point and I completely agree about the 'loss of magic' from FYEO onwards, at least in terms of the unique look and atmosphere which had characterized Bond films up to that point.
  • Posts: 170
    Part of the problem was the 80's onwards were a lot less classy than the 60's in general.

    Also Moore was really looking his age at that point. He just got away with it in MR but not FYEO.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited August 2017 Posts: 23,883
    The_Donald wrote: »
    Part of the problem was the 80's onwards were a lot less classy than the 60's in general.
    Very true. The aesthetic changed dramatically under Glen. Budgets were cut and a lot of the old timers (most notably Adam) weren't brought back. Definite marked change from something 'special' to something more run of the mill and imitable imho.
    The_Donald wrote: »
    Also Moore was really looking his age at that point. He just got away with it in MR but not FYEO.
    Yes, he definitely looked older than in MR, but I think the more serious narrative and less jovial approach accentuated that. He was back to his old self in OP, and although he looked even older I found it less noticeable due to the humour.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,110
    The_Donald wrote: »
    Part of the problem was the 80's onwards were a lot less classy than the 60's in general.

    Also Moore was really looking his age at that point. He just got away with it in MR but not FYEO.

    Imagine Tim taking the reigns as far back as FYEO. I would have liked to see that. I love Sir Rog, but his prime was very much in the 70's in my opinion.
  • Posts: 1,162
    bondjames wrote: »
    I disagree as well. Onatopp is great fun imho, although I always feel the need to turn the volume down when she's giving it to that Canadian Admiral.

    To me the sexual vibe in her voice when she says "he's going to derail us" was worth the entry alone. I really had a good laugh on that one
  • Posts: 1,162
    bondjames wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Denise Richards playing a nuclear physicist takes the cake for me.
    Agreed. Bloody awful. She's just not credible in the part for me. Halle laid it on a bit thick in DAD but I could buy her as a NSA agent.

    I will also never understand what was going on in their minds. It's a typical example of EON ( all generations)not willing - or not being brave enough - to go the whole 9 yards. How many serious Bond movies have gotten spoiled by comedy or even slapstick moments! Actually to me the main achievement of CR is that it was the first Bond, after FRWL that is, in which they really pulled through with the seriousness.
    Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of reasons for Denise Richards to be in a Bond movie, but not as a nuclear physicist. And certainly not in those hotpants in the middle of an army camp!
  • Posts: 170
    bondjames wrote: »
    The_Donald wrote: »
    Part of the problem was the 80's onwards were a lot less classy than the 60's in general.
    Very true. The aesthetic changed dramatically under Glen. Budgets were cut and a lot of the old timers (most notably Adam) weren't brought back. Definite marked change from something 'special' to something more run of the mill and imitable imho.

    Not disagreeing with you but I was referring to the time periods in general. I didn't live through it but I get the impression that after the 60's the rules of society regarding sophistication/society dropped precipitously . That biker jacket Roger was told to wear for example haha.

    GoldenGun wrote: »
    The_Donald wrote: »
    Part of the problem was the 80's onwards were a lot less classy than the 60's in general.

    Also Moore was really looking his age at that point. He just got away with it in MR but not FYEO.

    Imagine Tim taking the reigns as far back as FYEO. I would have liked to see that. I love Sir Rog, but his prime was very much in the 70's in my opinion.

    Yeah as great as OP is (in my top 8 for sure), I would have liked to see Dalton face off against Kamal Khan, and a more serious treatment given to certain parts of it as I'm sure Tim would have insisted. But it's Roger's best imo, & probably he deserved that kind of film where he could show his repertoire of comedy, devastating one liner's and then his capacity to show real fear, anger and urgency in the tensest of situations.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    The_Donald wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    The_Donald wrote: »
    Part of the problem was the 80's onwards were a lot less classy than the 60's in general.
    Very true. The aesthetic changed dramatically under Glen. Budgets were cut and a lot of the old timers (most notably Adam) weren't brought back. Definite marked change from something 'special' to something more run of the mill and imitable imho.

    Not disagreeing with you but I was referring to the time periods in general. I didn't live through it but I get the impression that after the 60's the rules of society regarding sophistication/society dropped precipitously . That biker jacket Roger was told to wear for example haha.
    Arguably Bond set the standard throughout the 60's and 70's. There was an element of other worldliness and class to the product coming out of EON at the time. I don't see that in the 80's films even though they may visit glamorous locations. Something is missing. It could be in the direction.

    In terms of the jacket, I assume you're referring to AVTAK? Yes, that leather number was very disappointing.
  • RoadphillRoadphill United Kingdom
    Posts: 984
    I agree with a lot of the above. The Glen helmed 80's Bond films did all seem to have a fairly uninspired, uniform look. Not to say I dislike them, but just a few years removed from a visual tour de force like TSWLM, they seem pedestrian.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Denise Richards playing a nuclear physicist takes the cake for me.
    Agreed. Bloody awful. She's just not credible in the part for me. Halle laid it on a bit thick in DAD but I could buy her as a NSA agent.

    Same. Don't get me wrong, the acting was still horrid at times, but I can't imagine trying to sell "Yo mama" or "I think I got the thrust of it" while eyeballing Brosnan's package convincingly.

    There's a sort Bimbo-Ish innocence to Richards that makes it forgivable for me. I think Halle is utterly terrible, even lines that aren't all 'sass' or innuendo are exceptionally poor. Basically everything she says is appalingly delivered, regardless of the dialogue itself.

    'Here for the view again?'. Simple line; multiple ways to deliver it. Halle somehow even fucks that up. I dread to think how she'd have played Jones'. '...or somebody's gonna have my ass', which, incidentally, I think Richards delivers with the perfect amount of ignorance.
  • dominicgreenedominicgreene The Eternal QOS Defender
    Posts: 1,756
    Die Another Day is better than Spectre.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,963
    RC7 wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Denise Richards playing a nuclear physicist takes the cake for me.
    Agreed. Bloody awful. She's just not credible in the part for me. Halle laid it on a bit thick in DAD but I could buy her as a NSA agent.

    Same. Don't get me wrong, the acting was still horrid at times, but I can't imagine trying to sell "Yo mama" or "I think I got the thrust of it" while eyeballing Brosnan's package convincingly.

    There's a sort Bimbo-Ish innocence to Richards that makes it forgivable for me. I think Halle is utterly terrible, even lines that aren't all 'sass' or innuendo are exceptionally poor. Basically everything she says is appalingly delivered, regardless of the dialogue itself.

    'Here for the view again?'. Simple line; multiple ways to deliver it. Halle somehow even fucks that up. I dread to think how she'd have played Jones'. '...or somebody's gonna have my ass', which, incidentally, I think Richards delivers with the perfect amount of ignorance.

    It's minor to me, but the "And another million in reserve" line is delivered so very poorly by her towards the end of the film, when they enter the bunker with M and crew before assaulting Graves' base/plane.
  • Posts: 1,162
    Die Another Day is better than Spectre.

    What isn't?
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited August 2017 Posts: 23,883
    Halle overplayed it big time, but I think in retrospect her delivery was suitable for the tone of the film. It was 100% camp. Even Stephens went nuts.

    "Of course you would. My mistake."
    "Of course I want to bloody continue!"
    "Oh, look! Parachutes for the both of us. Whoops. Not any more."

    My point is she wasn't out of place, although I would have preferred if she was a little more subtle.

    Denise was completely a 'take me out of it' character for TWINE, which had some semblance of seriousness to it in comparison.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,110
    Concerning Halle Berry, she's not my favourite Bond girl but she's far from the worst either.

    I thought she was competent and sexy. Her playful tone is done rather well. The problem is the dialogue which in all honesty isn't her fault.

    Denise Richards is admittedly gorgeous but she's just out of her league from beginning to end.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Die Another Day is better than Spectre.

    Christ knows I'm as happy as the next bloke to lay into SP's flaws but that's just being silly.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited August 2017 Posts: 23,883
    'Better' is a loaded term.

    I know I certainly very much 'prefer' watching DAD to SP. In fact, recent discussion of the film has compelled me to revisit it this week. Great fun, now that we can look back on it with hindsight.
  • dominicgreenedominicgreene The Eternal QOS Defender
    edited August 2017 Posts: 1,756
    Die Another Day is better than Spectre.

    Christ knows I'm as happy as the next bloke to lay into SP's flaws but that's just being silly.

    Hahahaha. Well I say this because DAD knows what it is and plays it up, which makes it cooler. SP pretends to be something it's not and it leaves a bitter taste.

    DAD was the first Bond film I watched so I'm a bit biased.
  • Posts: 1,162
    bondjames wrote: »
    'Better' is a loaded term.

    I know I certainly very much 'prefer' watching DAD to SP. In fact, recent discussion of the film has compelled me to revisit it this week. Great fun, now that we can look back on it with hindsight.

    That's what I meant when I said better. The entertainment factor.
  • edited August 2017 Posts: 7,507
    Die Another Day is better than Spectre.

    Christ knows I'm as happy as the next bloke to lay into SP's flaws but that's just being silly.

    Hahahaha. Well I say this because DAD knows what it is and plays it up, which makes it cooler. SP pretends to be something it's not and it leaves a bitter taste.

    DAD was the first Bond film I watched so I'm a bit biased.


    Not so sure. Bond abandoned by his own boss and left to rot and be tortured in a North Korean prison camp? Clear links to Fleming and Moonraker?

    In Spectre we at least get some decent lines, set pieces and performances as well as stellar cinematography. I struggle to find one single positive with DAD.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,963
    I don't know about stellar cinematography. It was alright, but marred by horrible filtering. I'd say the film would look even better if Deakins hadn't shot the last one, but the comparison between the two is night and day for me. Hopefully they correct that hazy color choice for the next movie, because it's jarring.
  • edited August 2017 Posts: 7,507
    Well, I guess we can at least agree that it is better than the 'early 21st century computer game' DAD?
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    bondjames wrote: »
    Halle overplayed it big time, but I think in retrospect her delivery was suitable for the tone of the film. It was 100% camp. Even Stephens went nuts.

    "Of course you would. My mistake."
    "Of course I want to bloody continue!"
    "Oh, look! Parachutes for the both of us. Whoops. Not any more."

    My point is she wasn't out of place, although I would have preferred if she was a little more subtle.

    Denise was completely a 'take me out of it' character for TWINE, which had some semblance of seriousness to it in comparison.

    Stephens is camp. Berry is shite.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    RC7 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Halle overplayed it big time, but I think in retrospect her delivery was suitable for the tone of the film. It was 100% camp. Even Stephens went nuts.

    "Of course you would. My mistake."
    "Of course I want to bloody continue!"
    "Oh, look! Parachutes for the both of us. Whoops. Not any more."

    My point is she wasn't out of place, although I would have preferred if she was a little more subtle.

    Denise was completely a 'take me out of it' character for TWINE, which had some semblance of seriousness to it in comparison.

    Stephens is camp. Berry is shite.

    Should've been the tagline on the poster.
  • I think DAD as a whole is really fun when you take it for what it is. My favourite bit is Bond's escape from the ice palace up to the tsunami surfing. Not only do you have the tsunami surfing but you also get so many bad one liners in the space of a few minutes

    "I've missed your sparkling personality"
    "How's that for a punch line"
    "Time to draw the line"
    "Global warming, it's a terrible thing"

    But then you also get a genuinely good little moment when Bond tries to shoot Frost in the head as soon as he finds out she's the one who sold him out. No messing about. Just goes straight for a bullet to the head.

    That whole sequence sums up why I've really come to enjoy Die Another Day. So bad it's good, except when it's genuinely good. And Brosnan manages to anchor the whole thing in a way I can't see any other Bond managing. It's crap sure but crap can be fun to watch. Stupid is better than boring and for that reason I'd probably take it over average by the numbers entries like FYEO or TND. I mean the script actually has him breaking a landspeed record, surfing a tsunami and then nipping back for a car chase in his invisible car. It's so gloriously stupid and over the top and somehow played almost completely straight that I can't help enjoying it.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    That whole sequence sums up why I've really come to enjoy Die Another Day. So bad it's good, except when it's genuinely good.
    Your words reminded me of another classic from the film @thelivingroyale:

    "I am so good."
    "Especially when you`re bad."

    I agree with your post though. Another classic line during the tsunami disgrace (made all the more enjoyable by Stephens' killer reaction):

    "Hey, boss, he beat your time."
  • Posts: 7,507
    Im glad someone can take pleassure in its stupidity. I am not able
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