Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    bondjames wrote: »
    GBF wrote: »
    Still you can tell from the beginning that Connery's Bond was thought of being a sophisticated character. It is the way he talks, how he behaves. You feel that this man is at the right place in the casino or the "dinner with Dr. No scene". This man appreciates the right drink at the right time, has a certain kind of class and style.
    Certainly. What set him apart was a certain element of rough around the edges masculinity combined with that knowledge, style and elegance. It was there right from the opening casino scene in DN. A perfect cocktail balance which has not been replicated since, imho.

    Bond should be equally at home and able to blend in in a Mayfair gentleman's club or the dirtiest bar in Gdansk.

    Sean had this in spades and so, to a lesser extent, did Laz and Tim.

    Rog and Broz had the former but not the latter.

    Dan the latter but slightly lacking in the former.
  • Posts: 15,115
    I think in GF Bond is overall too knowledgeable.
    Btw - these days it's actually quite accepted to have red wine with your fish. Depends on the fish of course. Not to mention the wine!

    I was about to say it. It's a common misconception. Like drinking red wine at room temperature: in fact it depends of the room's temperature.
  • Posts: 1,162
    GBF wrote: »
    Still you can tell from the beginning that Connery's Bond was thought of being a sophisticated character. It is the way he talks, how he behaves. You feel that this man is at the right place in the casino or the "dinner with Dr. No scene". This man appreciates the right drink at the right time, has a certain kind of class and style.

    Style? Sure! In spades!! I was merely talking about the universal knowledge that bond developed over the run of the franchise
  • Posts: 19,339
    I still like the way he catches Mr Wint out at the end of DAF...very clever.
  • Posts: 1,162
    barryt007 wrote: »
    I still like the way he catches Mr Wint out at the end of DAF...very clever.
    Absolutely, but still not to be considered experts knowledge.
  • Posts: 19,339
    barryt007 wrote: »
    I still like the way he catches Mr Wint out at the end of DAF...very clever.
    Absolutely, but still not to be considered experts knowledge.

    No of course,i just think it was a good angle to use to prove that Wint wasn't a steward.

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    It was a great way to sign off his run imho. Love that epilogue in DAF.
  • Posts: 19,339
    bondjames wrote: »
    It was a great way to sign off his run imho. Love that epilogue in DAF.

    It did raise the ending a lot after the hum-drum rig attack.

  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,114
    bondjames wrote: »
    It was a great way to sign off his run imho. Love that epilogue in DAF.

    The highlight of the film and a great way for Sean to go.
  • edited October 2017 Posts: 7,507
    Regarding Bond´s sophistication, I always got the feeling Fleming tried to make him as sophisticated as he could, without really succeding. In the earlier novels he drinks champagne with evyrithing, which is not really sophisticated, just expensive, and in fact quite pretentious... In You Only Live Twice he goes to great lengths in slamming Japanese cuisine. No true gourmet would do that with one of the most interesting, extravagant and cultivated cuisines in the world.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,114
    barryt007 wrote: »
    I still like the way he catches Mr Wint out at the end of DAF...very clever.
    Absolutely, but still not to be considered experts knowledge.

    Not so sure, one would be astonished about most people's poor wine knowledge.

    Moreover if English is your maternal language, you can't read it of the bottle which would say 'bordeaux' instead of claret.
  • Posts: 1,162
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    I still like the way he catches Mr Wint out at the end of DAF...very clever.
    Absolutely, but still not to be considered experts knowledge.

    Not so sure, one would be astonished about most people's poor wine knowledge.

    Moreover if English is your maternal language, you can't read it of the bottle which would say 'bordeaux' instead of claret.

    I didn't mean this is common knowledge but it's not in the same league as knowing the vintage of the wines of which a Brandy had been destilled.
  • Posts: 15,115
    jobo wrote: »
    Regarding Bond´s sophistication, I always got the feeling Fleming tried to make him as sophisticated as he could, without really succeding. In the earlier novels he drinks champagne with evyrithing, which is not really sophisticated, just expensive, and in fact quite pretentious... In You Only Live Twice he goes to great lengths in slamming Japanese cuisine. No true gourmet would do that with one of the most interesting, extravagant and cultivated cuisines in the world.

    I think the novel Bond likes what people at the time condidered sophisticated. Back then Japanese food was at best exotic.
  • ForYourEyesOnlyForYourEyesOnly In the untained cradle of the heavens
    Posts: 1,984
    Bond is quite knowledgeable in Goldfinger until he completely blanks out as he's trying to defuse the bomb.

    As far as knowledge goes, Moore always impressed me most. Apart from fleeting moments like in Q's lab in TMWTGG (regarding the bullet's origin) and his claim that Stromberg's laboratory was in Corsica in TSWLM (obviously just there for Anya to get a one-up on him), his iteration of Bond was always a know-it-all. Especially in MR as he's on tour with Goodhead.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    I would really appreciate it if they brought back some of this sophistication and snobbery for B26. I realize the culture has changed but I've always liked this aspect of Bond and have missed it (the last time I really recall it was Dalton in TLD at the safe house).
  • Posts: 1,162
    I have never understood that catering to mediocrity by making Bond so much more plebeian.
    After all, there are quite enough Joe Sixpack like heroes floating around, but none that's like the Bond of yore.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    As they try to accommodate the sensibilities of a wider global audience they perhaps feel that they need to soften some of his more objectionable (within the context of said culture) characteristics. I find it rather unfortunate personally. Hopefully the success of nascent series like Kingsman will convince them to bring it back for the next iteration of the character.
  • ForYourEyesOnlyForYourEyesOnly In the untained cradle of the heavens
    Posts: 1,984
    I can't see them keeping it like this forever myself.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,253
    If you ask me, but then again I have to admit I'm not an expert, but the roiginal vintage of which a Brandy is distilled from is increadeably hard to taste. The amount of years it's been on casket, however, is. Bond was basically joking here, or more the producers/ script writers were.

    Anyway, on the wine; the diversity in wines is far greater thse days, hence a light red could go with a strong tasting fish. That's the basis of the 'no red wine with fish'. After all, it's about tasting the food. And through that i come back to Fleming: Bond is a man living on the edge, so he enjoys as much of life as he can. Learning on the way. It isn't 'snobbery', allthough it comes over as, but the will to enjoy a life that can be over any second. That's why, from the start, he drinks all that champagne. In the 19 fifties that's extremely luxureaous living.
    then there's the spy angle: Bond needs to know about everything something to do his job properly. A generalist (and certainly not an expert!) in many a field, capable of mixing in with any crowd.

    I think the first 4 films, maybe even 5, showed this perfectly. It slowly becomes tongue in cheek, which probably adds to the charm.

    I think Craig has, uptil now, focussed on the spy-part. He speaks more languages, is very well aware of what goes on in the world. He has however not expanded on the 'snobbery' that he starts in CR ('I need you to look like you belong at that table'). It would be nice if more of the 'renaissance man' was injected in the films.
  • Major_BoothroydMajor_Boothroyd Republic of Isthmus
    Posts: 2,722
    .
    bondjames wrote: »
    The one I didn't like was the Beach Boys in AVTAK. Why? Well because that stupid tune didn't fit the scene. Just because Bond is snowboarding doesn't mean one has to play California Girls. Barry blew it there imho.

    I believe that decision was forced on Barry by Glen/EON - at least according to a Barry quote from the Music of James Bond book - the composer wasn't happy about it at all which makes sense considering the dangerous, menacing music of 'Snow Job' surrounding it.

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    .
    bondjames wrote: »
    The one I didn't like was the Beach Boys in AVTAK. Why? Well because that stupid tune didn't fit the scene. Just because Bond is snowboarding doesn't mean one has to play California Girls. Barry blew it there imho.

    I believe that decision was forced on Barry by Glen/EON - at least according to a Barry quote from the Music of James Bond book - the composer wasn't happy about it at all which makes sense considering the dangerous, menacing music of 'Snow Job' surrounding it.
    Ah, that makes more sense. Thanks. This is precisely my issue with it actually. The music surrounding the scene has a certain (perfectly appropriate imho) tone and then suddenly this almost comedic addition usurps everything.
  • Major_BoothroydMajor_Boothroyd Republic of Isthmus
    Posts: 2,722
    Barry on the other hand was responsible for the slide whistle in TMWTGG car roll and I didn't have a problem with the Lawrence of Arabia reference in TSWLM - I just disliked the musical cue before it - with Hamlisich's decision to have the circus carnival music as the destroyed van bouncing around. That's almost as silly as Jaws flapping his arms around in MR.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited October 2017 Posts: 23,883
    Barry on the other hand was responsible for the slide whistle in TMWTGG car roll and I didn't have a problem with the Lawrence of Arabia reference in TSWLM - I just disliked the musical cue before it - with Hamlisich's decision to have the circus carnival music as the destroyed van bouncing around. That's almost as silly as Jaws flapping his arms around in MR.
    I agree that the musical cue during the van breakdown sequence is a bit off, but when it segues shortly thereafter into the Lawrence of Arabia cue and the slow boat ride with Nobody Does It Better in the background it's wonderfully romantic (the setting, the lighting, the costumes, the style, the climate, the exoticism, the atmosphere etc.).
  • edited October 2017 Posts: 7,507
    As stated before, Hamlich´s score for TSWLM is the most dated, inappropriate and annoying score in the series for me, and one of the reasons I find it hard to enjoy the overall film as much as I should. Those synthesized disco beats and cheesy saxophone melodies are borderline embarassing.
  • Major_BoothroydMajor_Boothroyd Republic of Isthmus
    Posts: 2,722
    bondjames wrote: »
    Barry on the other hand was responsible for the slide whistle in TMWTGG car roll and I didn't have a problem with the Lawrence of Arabia reference in TSWLM - I just disliked the musical cue before it - with Hamlisich's decision to have the circus carnival music as the destroyed van bouncing around. That's almost as silly as Jaws flapping his arms around in MR.
    I agree that the musical cue during the van breakdown sequence is a bit off, but when it segues shortly thereafter into the Lawrence of Arabia cue and the slow boat ride with Nobody Does It Better in the background it's wonderfully romantic (the setting, the lighting, the costumes, the style, the climate, the exoticism, the atmosphere etc.).

    Agreed - I love those moments too. I don't mind Hamlisich's score in places. The romantic Nobody Does it better instrumental is good and I love the cheesy 70s funk of Bond '77.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,114
    I have never understood that catering to mediocrity by making Bond so much more plebeian.
    After all, there are quite enough Joe Sixpack like heroes floating around, but none that's like the Bond of yore.

    Exactly, sophistication is what makes Bond different and superior to all other action heroes. It's also the reason why I like these films so much.
    Lose that aspect and you're basically everyone one else.
  • Talking about Moneypenny in the production thread has made me realise how much more I like Brosnan era regulars better than the Craig era ones.

    Dench is better than Fiennes imo, and I preferred Brosnan Dench to Craig Dench because no mummy issues.

    Robinson and Micheal Kitchen's Tanner are so much more watchable/memorable than Kinnear's Tanner and Villiers.

    Naomie Harris is a brilliant actress but just seems wooden/forced, I enjoyed Samantha Bond much more as Moneypenny, I thought she had great chemistry with Brosnan.

    Wishaw is fantastic and the perfect replacement for Desmond. I like him than Cleese. But Cleese isn't bad, and Brosnan still had Desmond for most of his era (and I really liked them together because Brosnan always seemed so happy sharing scenes with him), so it's close.

    It also helps how they were used. The Brosnan era regulars were used perfectly imo, given real character (even Robinson had little moments to shine) but not getting in the way of Bond's mission/the plot, except on one occasion where it was still a new concept (TWINE). Not a fan of the scooby gang approach that's plagued the Craig movies.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,253
    Well that's at least partial controvrsial... I do like Dench more as M, but that has more to do with how Fiennes was used in the last one. And anyway, Dench's M isn't that different I think. she's very consistent in her portrayal.

    Fiennes could be a very good M, as long as he's used properly, which he wasn't in SP if you ask me. I like him a lot in SF.

    The Tanners are a close call, allthough it seems like Brosnan's Bond has more of a friendship with Kitchen's Tanner.

    For me Samantha Bond is the worst Moneypenny in the series, and Naomi Harris is the second best, so I strongly disagree there. I don't find her wooden at all. She comes over as professional, who loves a bit of banter, in the same vein as Lois Maxwell.

    And of course Desmond is the best Q ever, who'll never be surpassed as he basically IS Q. I think Wishaw does an excellent job giving the role his own version, but Desmond will never be surpassed. Cleese was fun, but in only one film he's Q, and that isn't the best film in the series.

    I do agree however that it would be better if the rest of the office staff of MI6 does just that: stay in the office for the next few films.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Talking about Moneypenny in the production thread has made me realise how much more I like Brosnan era regulars better than the Craig era ones.

    Dench is better than Fiennes imo, and I preferred Brosnan Dench to Craig Dench because no mummy issues.

    Robinson and Micheal Kitchen's Tanner are so much more watchable/memorable than Kinnear's Tanner and Villiers.

    Naomie Harris is a brilliant actress but just seems wooden/forced, I enjoyed Samantha Bond much more as Moneypenny, I thought she had great chemistry with Brosnan.

    Wishaw is fantastic and the perfect replacement for Desmond. I like him than Cleese. But Cleese isn't bad, and Brosnan still had Desmond for most of his era (and I really liked them together because Brosnan always seemed so happy sharing scenes with him), so it's close.

    It also helps how they were used. The Brosnan era regulars were used perfectly imo, given real character (even Robinson had little moments to shine) but not getting in the way of Bond's mission/the plot, except on one occasion where it was still a new concept (TWINE). Not a fan of the scooby gang approach that's plagued the Craig movies.
    I quite agree. I'm not so much a fan of Samantha Bond but realize that much of this is because of the 90s and the producer's desire to attempt to reset the traditional Bond/MP relationship rather than SB herself. Unlike most, I actually liked the final VR scene in DAD because her true hidden feelings are finally revealed.

    I even liked Charles Robinson.
  • Posts: 1,917
    I know the Rory Kinnear dislike here is pretty strong, but I don't see that as a viable way to allow Michael Kitchen any more credit. I said back in the day the character was a blank spot and hardly stood out. Tanner being Bond's closest friend in the service in the books probably has no place in cinematic Bond. He seems just to be a member of the staff and little more.
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