Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,197
    I agree. It probably would be kind of forced if they bring back a smoking Bond. Every now and then they have to update the character. As it was done when they took away Bond's hat after Moore had taken over the role.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,253
    @thelivingroyale first off yes little kids will start smoking if their idol does so too. That's a given, the emulate behaviour of those they admire (hence why children of smokers are more likely to start smoking as well). Second: smoking isn't sophisticated (anymore) at all. Many here were indeed asking for Bond to be more glamourous. How could he if he's that stinking fellar standing outside the restaurant?

    The funny thing about Bond and sex is, they never really showed anything at all, not even in DAD of which Brosnan famously said 'yes let him smoke again and have steamy sex!'. With the added bonus of kids not having a clue of what sex really is about (other then beeing together in a bed).

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    I realize that smoking is passe and ostracized, but as I've said before I wouldn't care if he lights up in one scene in the film (as opposed to frequently).

    I can appreciate the remarks about it being a bit unrealistic for a fit agent to be smoking heavily, but I don't agree with comments about it being nasty and what not. Why? Well, because James Bond does a lot of nasty things. He's not supposed to be a sanitized poster boy of virtue, even if this current regime of producers seems to be increasingly looking to superhero Dark Knight for inspiration.

    Box office aspirations will rule unfortunately and given current views about the subject, we're unlikely to see it again.
  • edited October 2017 Posts: 11,189
    @thelivingroyale
    You're not thinking of True Lies are you? That had a camera disguised as a pack of cigarettes and It helps Arnold avoid some would-be terrorist killers.

    To be honest i can't say Bond not smoking bothers me. I've never been attracted to smoking and it doesn't make the character anymore interesting to me. As others have said, booze, sex and gambling would suffice enough as modern vices for Bond.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    edited October 2017 Posts: 9,509
    Let me clarify my nasty comment ; number one: it is; number two, it’s unattractive and a filthy habit and Bond may do nasty things, but unattractive and filthy he is not.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,253
    BT3366 wrote: »
    I know the Rory Kinnear dislike here is pretty strong, but I don't see that as a viable way to allow Michael Kitchen any more credit. I said back in the day the character was a blank spot and hardly stood out. Tanner being Bond's closest friend in the service in the books probably has no place in cinematic Bond. He seems just to be a member of the staff and little more.

    The key difference being that as Chief Of Staff I can envisage Kitchen stepping into the breach and running the department with the immediate respect of everyone if M was on leave a la FYEO or kidnapped a la Colonel Sun.

    The only job I can see Rory stepping into successfully is assistant manager at the Uttoxeter branch of Marks and Spencer.

    Thanks to you I'm now aware of places like Needwood, Newborough, Scropton, Foston, Hatton and of course Hanbury, Tutbury and Dalbury.

    thank you!
  • Posts: 11,189
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    As well as a cigar Broz also smoked a normal cigarette in Raoul's office when he was looking at the diamond.

    I don't remember that. I'll have to have another look!

    I MIGHT be wrong myself. I do remember his voice strains slightly at one point in that scene so he was presumably not a natural smoker.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    peter wrote: »
    Let me clarify my nasty comment ; number one: it is; number two, it’s unattractive and a filthy habit and Bond may do nasty things, but unattractive and filthy he is not.
    The great thing about a character that has existed for 50+ years in the imagination of viewers and fans is we all ascribe character traits and aspirations to him which meet our own sensibilities. Sean Connery isn't filthy and neither is George Lazenby. I don't think that when I watch their exceptional Bond films at least.

    Ultimately, this is all about box office and casting as wide a net as possible to make money. Smoking is ostracized. EON wants to appeal to women and everyone under the sun. So no more smoking will be seen.

    Let's just hope, for all our sakes, that changes in our PC driven society at large do not result in further sanitization of our favourite agent.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,253
    bondjames wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    Let me clarify my nasty comment ; number one: it is; number two, it’s unattractive and a filthy habit and Bond may do nasty things, but unattractive and filthy he is not.
    The great thing about a character that has existed for 50+ years in the imagination of viewers and fans is we all ascribe character traits and aspirations to him which meet our own sensibilities. Sean Connery isn't filthy and neither is George Lazenby. I don't think that when I watch their exceptional Bond films at least.

    Ultimately, this is all about box office and casting as wide a net as possible to make money. Smoking is ostracized. EON wants to appeal to women and everyone under the sun. So no more smoking will be seen.

    Let's just hope, for all our sakes, that changes in our PC driven society at large do not result in further sanitization of our favourite agent.

    The funny thing is, we're not living in the sixties anymore. Hence smoking then was considered cool (and healthy by many!!), but nowedays it's a filthy habit. People are capable of taking this into account. So if the films were period pieces, it would work, but in a modern piece it would be seen as a weakness.

    Connery was for his time a strong man, for modern times he's not that much fitter then your average joe (at least in Europe). We expect more of a fit Craig-Bond then of a fit Connery-Bond.

    Times they are a-changin' ;-)
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    bondjames wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    Let me clarify my nasty comment ; number one: it is; number two, it’s unattractive and a filthy habit and Bond may do nasty things, but unattractive and filthy he is not.
    The great thing about a character that has existed for 50+ years in the imagination of viewers and fans is we all ascribe character traits and aspirations to him which meet our own sensibilities. Sean Connery isn't filthy and neither is George Lazenby. I don't think that when I watch their exceptional Bond films at least.

    Ultimately, this is all about box office and casting as wide a net as possible to make money. Smoking is ostracized. EON wants to appeal to women and everyone under the sun. So no more smoking will be seen.

    Let's just hope, for all our sakes, that changes in our PC driven society at large do not result in further sanitization of our favourite agent.

    The funny thing is, we're not living in the sixties anymore. Hence smoking then was considered cool (and healthy by many!!), but nowedays it's a filthy habit. People are capable of taking this into account. So if the films were period pieces, it would work, but in a modern piece it would be seen as a weakness.

    Connery was for his time a strong man, for modern times he's not that much fitter then your average joe (at least in Europe). We expect more of a fit Craig-Bond then of a fit Connery-Bond.

    Times they are a-changin' ;-)
    Precisely, which is my point. That's the reason they do it, isn't it? To fit in and make the most money possible. No point in sugar coating it.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,253
    bondjames wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    Let me clarify my nasty comment ; number one: it is; number two, it’s unattractive and a filthy habit and Bond may do nasty things, but unattractive and filthy he is not.
    The great thing about a character that has existed for 50+ years in the imagination of viewers and fans is we all ascribe character traits and aspirations to him which meet our own sensibilities. Sean Connery isn't filthy and neither is George Lazenby. I don't think that when I watch their exceptional Bond films at least.

    Ultimately, this is all about box office and casting as wide a net as possible to make money. Smoking is ostracized. EON wants to appeal to women and everyone under the sun. So no more smoking will be seen.

    Let's just hope, for all our sakes, that changes in our PC driven society at large do not result in further sanitization of our favourite agent.

    The funny thing is, we're not living in the sixties anymore. Hence smoking then was considered cool (and healthy by many!!), but nowedays it's a filthy habit. People are capable of taking this into account. So if the films were period pieces, it would work, but in a modern piece it would be seen as a weakness.

    Connery was for his time a strong man, for modern times he's not that much fitter then your average joe (at least in Europe). We expect more of a fit Craig-Bond then of a fit Connery-Bond.

    Times they are a-changin' ;-)
    Precisely, which is my point. That's the reason they do it, isn't it? To fit in and make the most money possible. No point in sugar coating it.

    Nope, no reason to sugar coat whatsoever ;-)
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    @thelivingroyale first off yes little kids will start smoking if their idol does so too. That's a given, the emulate behaviour of those they admire (hence why children of smokers are more likely to start smoking as well).

    Well Bond shoots an awful lot of people and given that getting hold of a gun is as easy as fags in the States where are all the kids emulating him by shooting people?
    [quote="pete
    Besides without trying to sound like a snob, smoking is now seen more as a habit of the working class.

    And swigging from a Heineken bottle is all the rage in high society these days I hear.
    bondjames wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    Let me clarify my nasty comment ; number one: it is; number two, it’s unattractive and a filthy habit and Bond may do nasty things, but unattractive and filthy he is not.
    The great thing about a character that has existed for 50+ years in the imagination of viewers and fans is we all ascribe character traits and aspirations to him which meet our own sensibilities. Sean Connery isn't filthy and neither is George Lazenby. I don't think that when I watch their exceptional Bond films at least.

    Ultimately, this is all about box office and casting as wide a net as possible to make money. Smoking is ostracized. EON wants to appeal to women and everyone under the sun. So no more smoking will be seen.

    Let's just hope, for all our sakes, that changes in our PC driven society at large do not result in further sanitization of our favourite agent.

    The funny thing is, we're not living in the sixties anymore. Hence smoking then was considered cool (and healthy by many!!), but nowedays it's a filthy habit. People are capable of taking this into account. So if the films were period pieces, it would work, but in a modern piece it would be seen as a weakness.

    Connery was for his time a strong man, for modern times he's not that much fitter then your average joe (at least in Europe). We expect more of a fit Craig-Bond then of a fit Connery-Bond.

    Times they are a-changin' ;-)
    Precisely, which is my point. That's the reason they do it, isn't it? To fit in and make the most money possible. No point in sugar coating it.

    Quite. I'd be interested to see how far EON's morals to protect the little children would stretch if Marlboro slapped down a $20m cheque for him to spark up on screen.

    How long before alcohol goes out of fashion as being too detrimental to health and the vodka martinis and Bolly are no more and the enzyme shake becomes the norm?

    And let's not forget the nanny state's 'When the fun stops stop' campaign blitz on gambling which is another cancer in our society that Bond loves indulging in.

    We're on a slippery slope that will end up a decade from now with a totally sanitised character bearing zero resemblance to Fleming's man who is a silhouette whose job was the dirty business of spying.

    The sooner Netflix or someone is allowed to remake all the novels as period pieces and we can leave EON to chase the bland inoffensive Disneyfied mass market dollar the better.
  • Posts: 11,189
    I don't "get" smoking as I've never really done it much so I can't say its something I miss or can identify with quite frankly. It would be more of an issue if Bond stopped drinking for me.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited October 2017 Posts: 23,883
    And let's not forget the nanny state's 'When the fun stops stop' campaign blitz on gambling which is another cancer in our society that Bond loves indulging in.
    It's interesting that you should mention that, because I recalled Bond didn't actually sit down to gamble in SF. It was running through my mind when I made my last post.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    bondjames wrote: »
    And let's not forget the nanny state's 'When the fun stops stop' campaign blitz on gambling which is another cancer in our society that Bond loves indulging in.
    It's interesting that you should mention that, because I recalled Bond didn't actually sit down to gamble in SF. It was running through my mind when I made my last post.

    Well to be fair he gets his bollocks smashed in CR for gambling so presume that acts as a deterrent to the impressionable youth.
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    I don't "get" smoking as I've never really done it much so I can't say its something I miss or can identify with quite frankly.

    Agree entirely. But one man's fags are another's Tattinger Blanc des Blancs or baccarat or driving fast or shagging loads of women.

    The fact is though that Bond likes all of them so if you take one away it detracts, however insignificantly, from the character.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,996
    @thelivingroyale first off yes little kids will start smoking if their idol does so too. That's a given, the emulate behaviour of those they admire (hence why children of smokers are more likely to start smoking as well).

    Well Bond shoots an awful lot of people and given that getting hold of a gun is as easy as fags in the States where are all the kids emulating him by shooting people?
    [quote="pete
    Besides without trying to sound like a snob, smoking is now seen more as a habit of the working class.

    And swigging from a Heineken bottle is all the rage in high society these days I hear.

    Well, there's a time and a place for Vodka Martini's and its not in tough Chilean bars, rough gambling joints or grubby hotel rooms...

    Blending in with ones surroundings I suppose....
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,996
    @thelivingroyale first off yes little kids will start smoking if their idol does so too. That's a given, the emulate behaviour of those they admire (hence why children of smokers are more likely to start smoking as well).

    Well Bond shoots an awful lot of people and given that getting hold of a gun is as easy as fags in the States where are all the kids emulating him by shooting people?
    [quote="pete
    Besides without trying to sound like a snob, smoking is now seen more as a habit of the working class.

    And swigging from a Heineken bottle is all the rage in high society these days I hear.
    bondjames wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    Let me clarify my nasty comment ; number one: it is; number two, it’s unattractive and a filthy habit and Bond may do nasty things, but unattractive and filthy he is not.
    The great thing about a character that has existed for 50+ years in the imagination of viewers and fans is we all ascribe character traits and aspirations to him which meet our own sensibilities. Sean Connery isn't filthy and neither is George Lazenby. I don't think that when I watch their exceptional Bond films at least.

    Ultimately, this is all about box office and casting as wide a net as possible to make money. Smoking is ostracized. EON wants to appeal to women and everyone under the sun. So no more smoking will be seen.

    Let's just hope, for all our sakes, that changes in our PC driven society at large do not result in further sanitization of our favourite agent.

    The funny thing is, we're not living in the sixties anymore. Hence smoking then was considered cool (and healthy by many!!), but nowedays it's a filthy habit. People are capable of taking this into account. So if the films were period pieces, it would work, but in a modern piece it would be seen as a weakness.

    Connery was for his time a strong man, for modern times he's not that much fitter then your average joe (at least in Europe). We expect more of a fit Craig-Bond then of a fit Connery-Bond.

    Times they are a-changin' ;-)
    Precisely, which is my point. That's the reason they do it, isn't it? To fit in and make the most money possible. No point in sugar coating it.

    Quite. I'd be interested to see how far EON's morals to protect the little children would stretch if Marlboro slapped down a $20m cheque for him to spark up on screen.

    How long before alcohol goes out of fashion as being too detrimental to health and the vodka martinis and Bolly are no more and the enzyme shake becomes the norm?

    And let's not forget the nanny state's 'When the fun stops stop' campaign blitz on gambling which is another cancer in our society that Bond loves indulging in.

    We're on a slippery slope that will end up a decade from now with a totally sanitised character bearing zero resemblance to Fleming's man who is a silhouette whose job was the dirty business of spying.

    The sooner Netflix or someone is allowed to remake all the novels as period pieces and we can leave EON to chase the bland inoffensive Disneyfied mass market dollar the better.

    Slight overreaction there. If anything Craig's Bond is even more of a gambler, womaniser, boozer and straight up bastard than previous Bonds. So to suggest the character is slowly being sanitised just because he doesn't have a Rothmans in his gob is just absurd.

    If there ever comes a time when a period adaptation of Fleming comes along I fully expect and want Bond to smoke like a chimney.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    @thelivingroyale first off yes little kids will start smoking if their idol does so too. That's a given, the emulate behaviour of those they admire (hence why children of smokers are more likely to start smoking as well).

    Well Bond shoots an awful lot of people and given that getting hold of a gun is as easy as fags in the States where are all the kids emulating him by shooting people?
    [quote="pete
    Besides without trying to sound like a snob, smoking is now seen more as a habit of the working class.

    And swigging from a Heineken bottle is all the rage in high society these days I hear.

    Well, there's a time and a place for Vodka Martini's and its not in tough Chilean bars, rough gambling joints or grubby hotel rooms...

    Blending in with ones surroundings I suppose....

    While it is difficult to imagine the James Bond of the books ordering a pint of beer in a pub, he certainly does drink beer in the books. Miller High Life, Red Stripe and Löwenbräu are all name checked and on his stag party in Munich in On Her Majesty’s Secret Service Bond downs four steins of beer with an ex-Luftwaffe pilot.

    It is also notable that Bond often drinks whatever is local, something highlighted by the beer choices above. In Turkey he drinks Raki, which he finds identical with Greek Ouzo and Kavaklidere, “a rich course burgundy like any other Balkan wine”, while he drinks Chianti to accompany his pasta in Rome.



  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited October 2017 Posts: 9,117
    @thelivingroyale first off yes little kids will start smoking if their idol does so too. That's a given, the emulate behaviour of those they admire (hence why children of smokers are more likely to start smoking as well).

    Well Bond shoots an awful lot of people and given that getting hold of a gun is as easy as fags in the States where are all the kids emulating him by shooting people?
    [quote="pete
    Besides without trying to sound like a snob, smoking is now seen more as a habit of the working class.

    And swigging from a Heineken bottle is all the rage in high society these days I hear.

    Well, there's a time and a place for Vodka Martini's and its not in tough Chilean bars, rough gambling joints or grubby hotel rooms...

    Blending in with ones surroundings I suppose....

    So smoking is too working class but drinking beer isn't?

    'I'll have a pint of Newton & Ridley chuck, shaken not stirred.'

    And I would've thought having a crafty fag in the above establishments would make you blend in even more (although why he needs to blend in in his own hotel room - where, incidentally, they are happy to portray him popping pills - is beyond me).
    @thelivingroyale first off yes little kids will start smoking if their idol does so too. That's a given, the emulate behaviour of those they admire (hence why children of smokers are more likely to start smoking as well).

    Well Bond shoots an awful lot of people and given that getting hold of a gun is as easy as fags in the States where are all the kids emulating him by shooting people?
    [quote="pete
    Besides without trying to sound like a snob, smoking is now seen more as a habit of the working class.

    And swigging from a Heineken bottle is all the rage in high society these days I hear.
    bondjames wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    Let me clarify my nasty comment ; number one: it is; number two, it’s unattractive and a filthy habit and Bond may do nasty things, but unattractive and filthy he is not.
    The great thing about a character that has existed for 50+ years in the imagination of viewers and fans is we all ascribe character traits and aspirations to him which meet our own sensibilities. Sean Connery isn't filthy and neither is George Lazenby. I don't think that when I watch their exceptional Bond films at least.

    Ultimately, this is all about box office and casting as wide a net as possible to make money. Smoking is ostracized. EON wants to appeal to women and everyone under the sun. So no more smoking will be seen.

    Let's just hope, for all our sakes, that changes in our PC driven society at large do not result in further sanitization of our favourite agent.

    The funny thing is, we're not living in the sixties anymore. Hence smoking then was considered cool (and healthy by many!!), but nowedays it's a filthy habit. People are capable of taking this into account. So if the films were period pieces, it would work, but in a modern piece it would be seen as a weakness.

    Connery was for his time a strong man, for modern times he's not that much fitter then your average joe (at least in Europe). We expect more of a fit Craig-Bond then of a fit Connery-Bond.

    Times they are a-changin' ;-)
    Precisely, which is my point. That's the reason they do it, isn't it? To fit in and make the most money possible. No point in sugar coating it.

    Quite. I'd be interested to see how far EON's morals to protect the little children would stretch if Marlboro slapped down a $20m cheque for him to spark up on screen.

    How long before alcohol goes out of fashion as being too detrimental to health and the vodka martinis and Bolly are no more and the enzyme shake becomes the norm?

    And let's not forget the nanny state's 'When the fun stops stop' campaign blitz on gambling which is another cancer in our society that Bond loves indulging in.

    We're on a slippery slope that will end up a decade from now with a totally sanitised character bearing zero resemblance to Fleming's man who is a silhouette whose job was the dirty business of spying.

    The sooner Netflix or someone is allowed to remake all the novels as period pieces and we can leave EON to chase the bland inoffensive Disneyfied mass market dollar the better.

    Slight overreaction there. If anything Craig's Bond is even more of a gambler, womaniser, boozer and straight up bastard than previous Bonds. So to suggest the character is slowly being sanitised just because he doesn't have a Rothmans in his gob is just absurd.

    Im not saying it particularly bothers me at present but 'first they came for the socialists etc etc'.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,996
    @thelivingroyale first off yes little kids will start smoking if their idol does so too. That's a given, the emulate behaviour of those they admire (hence why children of smokers are more likely to start smoking as well).

    Well Bond shoots an awful lot of people and given that getting hold of a gun is as easy as fags in the States where are all the kids emulating him by shooting people?
    [quote="pete
    Besides without trying to sound like a snob, smoking is now seen more as a habit of the working class.

    And swigging from a Heineken bottle is all the rage in high society these days I hear.

    Well, there's a time and a place for Vodka Martini's and its not in tough Chilean bars, rough gambling joints or grubby hotel rooms...

    Blending in with ones surroundings I suppose....

    So smoking is too working class but drinking beer isn't?

    'I'll have a pint of Newton & Ridley chuck, shaken not stirred.'

    And I would've thought having a crafty fag in the above establishments would make you blend in even more (although why he needs to blend in in his own hotel room - where, incidentally, they are happy to portray him popping pills - is beyond me).
    @thelivingroyale first off yes little kids will start smoking if their idol does so too. That's a given, the emulate behaviour of those they admire (hence why children of smokers are more likely to start smoking as well).

    Well Bond shoots an awful lot of people and given that getting hold of a gun is as easy as fags in the States where are all the kids emulating him by shooting people?
    [quote="pete
    Besides without trying to sound like a snob, smoking is now seen more as a habit of the working class.

    And swigging from a Heineken bottle is all the rage in high society these days I hear.
    bondjames wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    Let me clarify my nasty comment ; number one: it is; number two, it’s unattractive and a filthy habit and Bond may do nasty things, but unattractive and filthy he is not.
    The great thing about a character that has existed for 50+ years in the imagination of viewers and fans is we all ascribe character traits and aspirations to him which meet our own sensibilities. Sean Connery isn't filthy and neither is George Lazenby. I don't think that when I watch their exceptional Bond films at least.

    Ultimately, this is all about box office and casting as wide a net as possible to make money. Smoking is ostracized. EON wants to appeal to women and everyone under the sun. So no more smoking will be seen.

    Let's just hope, for all our sakes, that changes in our PC driven society at large do not result in further sanitization of our favourite agent.

    The funny thing is, we're not living in the sixties anymore. Hence smoking then was considered cool (and healthy by many!!), but nowedays it's a filthy habit. People are capable of taking this into account. So if the films were period pieces, it would work, but in a modern piece it would be seen as a weakness.

    Connery was for his time a strong man, for modern times he's not that much fitter then your average joe (at least in Europe). We expect more of a fit Craig-Bond then of a fit Connery-Bond.

    Times they are a-changin' ;-)
    Precisely, which is my point. That's the reason they do it, isn't it? To fit in and make the most money possible. No point in sugar coating it.

    Quite. I'd be interested to see how far EON's morals to protect the little children would stretch if Marlboro slapped down a $20m cheque for him to spark up on screen.

    How long before alcohol goes out of fashion as being too detrimental to health and the vodka martinis and Bolly are no more and the enzyme shake becomes the norm?

    And let's not forget the nanny state's 'When the fun stops stop' campaign blitz on gambling which is another cancer in our society that Bond loves indulging in.

    We're on a slippery slope that will end up a decade from now with a totally sanitised character bearing zero resemblance to Fleming's man who is a silhouette whose job was the dirty business of spying.

    The sooner Netflix or someone is allowed to remake all the novels as period pieces and we can leave EON to chase the bland inoffensive Disneyfied mass market dollar the better.

    Slight overreaction there. If anything Craig's Bond is even more of a gambler, womaniser, boozer and straight up bastard than previous Bonds. So to suggest the character is slowly being sanitised just because he doesn't have a Rothmans in his gob is just absurd.

    Im not saying it particularly bothers me at present but 'first they came for the socialists etc etc'.

    As other members have pointed out, smoking was sophisticated and cool in the 60's (and to a certain extent the 70's) but in this day and age it's not. Drinking hasn't got the same demonization.

    Besides, Craig's take on Bond's character isn't affected by him not having a sly puff every now and then.

    I'll start worrying if he cuts down on the boozing.
  • Posts: 1,162
    @thelivingroyale first off yes little kids will start smoking if their idol does so too. That's a given, the emulate behaviour of those they admire (hence why children of smokers are more likely to start smoking as well).

    Well Bond shoots an awful lot of people and given that getting hold of a gun is as easy as fags in the States where are all the kids emulating him by shooting people?
    [quote="pete
    Besides without trying to sound like a snob, smoking is now seen more as a habit of the working class.

    And swigging from a Heineken bottle is all the rage in high society these days I hear.

    Well, there's a time and a place for Vodka Martini's and its not in tough Chilean bars, rough gambling joints or grubby hotel rooms...

    Blending in with ones surroundings I suppose....

    So smoking is too working class but drinking beer isn't?

    'I'll have a pint of Newton & Ridley chuck, shaken not stirred.'

    And I would've thought having a crafty fag in the above establishments would make you blend in even more (although why he needs to blend in in his own hotel room - where, incidentally, they are happy to portray him popping pills - is beyond me).
    @thelivingroyale first off yes little kids will start smoking if their idol does so too. That's a given, the emulate behaviour of those they admire (hence why children of smokers are more likely to start smoking as well).

    Well Bond shoots an awful lot of people and given that getting hold of a gun is as easy as fags in the States where are all the kids emulating him by shooting people?
    [quote="pete
    Besides without trying to sound like a snob, smoking is now seen more as a habit of the working class.

    And swigging from a Heineken bottle is all the rage in high society these days I hear.
    bondjames wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    Let me clarify my nasty comment ; number one: it is; number two, it’s unattractive and a filthy habit and Bond may do nasty things, but unattractive and filthy he is not.
    The great thing about a character that has existed for 50+ years in the imagination of viewers and fans is we all ascribe character traits and aspirations to him which meet our own sensibilities. Sean Connery isn't filthy and neither is George Lazenby. I don't think that when I watch their exceptional Bond films at least.

    Ultimately, this is all about box office and casting as wide a net as possible to make money. Smoking is ostracized. EON wants to appeal to women and everyone under the sun. So no more smoking will be seen.

    Let's just hope, for all our sakes, that changes in our PC driven society at large do not result in further sanitization of our favourite agent.

    The funny thing is, we're not living in the sixties anymore. Hence smoking then was considered cool (and healthy by many!!), but nowedays it's a filthy habit. People are capable of taking this into account. So if the films were period pieces, it would work, but in a modern piece it would be seen as a weakness.

    Connery was for his time a strong man, for modern times he's not that much fitter then your average joe (at least in Europe). We expect more of a fit Craig-Bond then of a fit Connery-Bond.

    Times they are a-changin' ;-)
    Precisely, which is my point. That's the reason they do it, isn't it? To fit in and make the most money possible. No point in sugar coating it.

    Quite. I'd be interested to see how far EON's morals to protect the little children would stretch if Marlboro slapped down a $20m cheque for him to spark up on screen.

    How long before alcohol goes out of fashion as being too detrimental to health and the vodka martinis and Bolly are no more and the enzyme shake becomes the norm?

    And let's not forget the nanny state's 'When the fun stops stop' campaign blitz on gambling which is another cancer in our society that Bond loves indulging in.

    We're on a slippery slope that will end up a decade from now with a totally sanitised character bearing zero resemblance to Fleming's man who is a silhouette whose job was the dirty business of spying.

    The sooner Netflix or someone is allowed to remake all the novels as period pieces and we can leave EON to chase the bland inoffensive Disneyfied mass market dollar the better.

    Slight overreaction there. If anything Craig's Bond is even more of a gambler, womaniser, boozer and straight up bastard than previous Bonds. So to suggest the character is slowly being sanitised just because he doesn't have a Rothmans in his gob is just absurd.

    Im not saying it particularly bothers me at present but 'first they came for the socialists etc etc'.

    As other members have pointed out, smoking was sophisticated and cool in the 60's (and to a certain extent the 70's) but in this day and age it's not. Drinking hasn't got the same demonization.

    Besides, Craig's take on Bond's character isn't affected by him not having a sly puff every now and then.

    I'll start worrying if he cuts down on the boozing.

    I find these quite reasonable opinions, I must say. Make that very reasonable.
  • Posts: 1,162
    Birdleson wrote: »
    As pointed out earlier, we are getting to the point where there will be no Fleming left in the character.

    Actually that point was reached with Skyfall. Not that CR had much of Flemings Bond in it.
    P.S.: I am talking about behavior and character, not story obviously.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    edited October 2017 Posts: 3,996
    Birdleson wrote: »
    As pointed out earlier, we are getting to the point where there will be no Fleming left in the character.

    Actually that point was reached with Skyfall. Not that CR had much of Flemings Bond in it.
    P.S.: I am talking about behavior and character, not story obviously.

    Strange. I thought Craig in CR was the most 'Flemingesque' portrayal of Bond since Dalton in TLD......

    I'm assuming some members on here would prefer the sixties Bond dumped in the 21st century, running around slapping womens arses and asking ethnic minorities to 'fetch his shoes...'
  • Posts: 1,162
    So much in Bonds behavior and acting in Skyfall is so much out of character for Fleming's creation, it almost hurts.
  • Posts: 7,507
    So much in Bonds behavior and acting in Skyfall is so much out of character for Fleming's creation, it almost hurts.


    Like what exactly?
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    @thelivingroyale first off yes little kids will start smoking if their idol does so too. That's a given, the emulate behaviour of those they admire (hence why children of smokers are more likely to start smoking as well).

    Well Bond shoots an awful lot of people and given that getting hold of a gun is as easy as fags in the States where are all the kids emulating him by shooting people?
    [quote="pete
    Besides without trying to sound like a snob, smoking is now seen more as a habit of the working class.

    And swigging from a Heineken bottle is all the rage in high society these days I hear.

    Well, there's a time and a place for Vodka Martini's and its not in tough Chilean bars, rough gambling joints or grubby hotel rooms...

    Blending in with ones surroundings I suppose....

    So smoking is too working class but drinking beer isn't?

    'I'll have a pint of Newton & Ridley chuck, shaken not stirred.'

    And I would've thought having a crafty fag in the above establishments would make you blend in even more (although why he needs to blend in in his own hotel room - where, incidentally, they are happy to portray him popping pills - is beyond me).
    @thelivingroyale first off yes little kids will start smoking if their idol does so too. That's a given, the emulate behaviour of those they admire (hence why children of smokers are more likely to start smoking as well).

    Well Bond shoots an awful lot of people and given that getting hold of a gun is as easy as fags in the States where are all the kids emulating him by shooting people?
    [quote="pete
    Besides without trying to sound like a snob, smoking is now seen more as a habit of the working class.

    And swigging from a Heineken bottle is all the rage in high society these days I hear.
    bondjames wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    Let me clarify my nasty comment ; number one: it is; number two, it’s unattractive and a filthy habit and Bond may do nasty things, but unattractive and filthy he is not.
    The great thing about a character that has existed for 50+ years in the imagination of viewers and fans is we all ascribe character traits and aspirations to him which meet our own sensibilities. Sean Connery isn't filthy and neither is George Lazenby. I don't think that when I watch their exceptional Bond films at least.

    Ultimately, this is all about box office and casting as wide a net as possible to make money. Smoking is ostracized. EON wants to appeal to women and everyone under the sun. So no more smoking will be seen.

    Let's just hope, for all our sakes, that changes in our PC driven society at large do not result in further sanitization of our favourite agent.

    The funny thing is, we're not living in the sixties anymore. Hence smoking then was considered cool (and healthy by many!!), but nowedays it's a filthy habit. People are capable of taking this into account. So if the films were period pieces, it would work, but in a modern piece it would be seen as a weakness.

    Connery was for his time a strong man, for modern times he's not that much fitter then your average joe (at least in Europe). We expect more of a fit Craig-Bond then of a fit Connery-Bond.

    Times they are a-changin' ;-)
    Precisely, which is my point. That's the reason they do it, isn't it? To fit in and make the most money possible. No point in sugar coating it.

    Quite. I'd be interested to see how far EON's morals to protect the little children would stretch if Marlboro slapped down a $20m cheque for him to spark up on screen.

    How long before alcohol goes out of fashion as being too detrimental to health and the vodka martinis and Bolly are no more and the enzyme shake becomes the norm?

    And let's not forget the nanny state's 'When the fun stops stop' campaign blitz on gambling which is another cancer in our society that Bond loves indulging in.

    We're on a slippery slope that will end up a decade from now with a totally sanitised character bearing zero resemblance to Fleming's man who is a silhouette whose job was the dirty business of spying.

    The sooner Netflix or someone is allowed to remake all the novels as period pieces and we can leave EON to chase the bland inoffensive Disneyfied mass market dollar the better.

    Slight overreaction there. If anything Craig's Bond is even more of a gambler, womaniser, boozer and straight up bastard than previous Bonds. So to suggest the character is slowly being sanitised just because he doesn't have a Rothmans in his gob is just absurd.

    Im not saying it particularly bothers me at present but 'first they came for the socialists etc etc'.

    As other members have pointed out, smoking was sophisticated and cool in the 60's (and to a certain extent the 70's) but in this day and age it's not. Drinking hasn't got the same demonization.

    Besides, Craig's take on Bond's character isn't affected by him not having a sly puff every now and then.

    I'll start worrying if he cuts down on the boozing
    .

    It's already happening mate:

    Just look at how they almost go out of their way to prevent Bond drinking in SP: glass of champagne thrown on the floor, vodka martini denied in favour of enzyme drink, dirty martini barely sipped before Hinx interrupts, glass of champagne turned down point blank.

    The only drinks he actually consumes are in L'Americain for product placement reasons.

    Compare this with his necking of champagne, Vespers and Mccallan galore in the previous 3 films and it's clear that they are trying to rein in Bond's alcoholic excess to stop kids copying him.

  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,026
    Let's face it, the literary Bond's indulgement of fine wines, fine food, fine ladies, a vintage Bentley, clubs, golf, and casinos is based on his urge to be part of "upper-class" society rather than just another underpaid public servant. Most of all, he wants to "belong". Now if we transplant the literary Bond to modern (or for each and all Bond movies, current) times, there is no way he'd be a smoker today. Smoking (rightfully) is completely reviled, really prevalent in lower-class circles only, and anyone stinking like smoke will be mostly a renegade among those people he is so eager to please, including the women if he tasted like an uncleaned ashtray. This is why I think a smoking Bond of the 2010s would be totally out of character, and you'd have to turn future instalments into period pieces of the 50s and 60s to make his smoking credible.
  • Posts: 17,753
    Regarding smoking, it's not something I've missed, but not something I would like to see Bond continue avoiding – if for being "correct". If Columbo was remade for TV in 2017, I wouldn't take away his cigars, necessary. Then again, Columbo is always seen with his cigars, while Bond's cigarette case is not central to the character.

    But what does smoking do most of all in those films where he does smoke? It creates an artistic brake when he says his name (DN), and in other examples gives the character something to do in front of camera, other than just standing/sitting there. One would guess that this could be possible to achieve with something different than cigarettes – like him drinking for example.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489

    But what does smoking do most of all in those films where he does smoke? It creates an artistic brake when he says his name (DN),

    Imagine this instead.

    "Bond"

    (Bond puts a pinch of snuff under his over lip)

    "Jamesh Bond"
  • edited October 2017 Posts: 17,753
    Imagine this instead.

    "Bond"

    (Bond puts a pinch of snuff under his over lip)

    "Jamesh Bond"

    Hahah! Bond of course, would have his custom silver snuff/snus box to carry! :D
    For those unfamiliar, this is snus:
    fc9f38da-62cd-4ae4-8739-2254598f6610?fit=crop&q=80&w=780

    Also comes in portion (pouches?), which Bond (the snob that he is) would prefer:
    snususersrun.jpg

    Could be worse than cigarettes and cigars!
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