Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • Posts: 19,339
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Let's not forget Sean lighting one up in the GF pre-titles.

    I beat you to that by about 7 hours GG .
  • The next bond will pound back energy drinks, Vape chilli flake caramel flavour smoke and listen to Dead Maus EDM on his Tesla car stereo.

    He listened to DeadMau5 in Valentin Zukovsky's nightclub in the GoldenEye remake. "I Remember".

    That garbage was an actual song?!? I thought it was just a lousy background track they slapped together for the game.

    Hahaha, yes, it's "I Remember" by DeadMau5. Activision put it into the game.
  • Major_BoothroydMajor_Boothroyd Republic of Isthmus
    edited October 2017 Posts: 2,722
    To quote Blackadder - 'I only smoke after sex - so back in England - I'm a twenty a day man'
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    edited October 2017 Posts: 8,328
    @thelivingroyale first off yes little kids will start smoking if their idol does so too. That's a given, the emulate behaviour of those they admire (hence why children of smokers are more likely to start smoking as well).

    Well Bond shoots an awful lot of people and given that getting hold of a gun is as easy as fags in the States where are all the kids emulating him by shooting people?

    I think you're quite aware kids emulate with toy guns, and most of the time they understand that Bond is shooting 'bad guys', and randomly killing people is something else. But still, there's enough kids dying in the US because they were playing with the guns of their parents. So again the answer is yes, it happens. Especially in the US. The country with the most kid killing kid ration in the world.


    on the smoking, the problem is Bond should be sophisticated, which smoking isn't at all. I think Fleming only stressed the smoking because in the books he smokes his own special mix, made by the local tabacco shop (or at least an exclusive brand), with three gold bands. He stressed it because in a time when everybody smoked, Bond did the same, but with specific taste. A trait he also shows in his peculiar drinking habits (sometimes not very refined, as when he adds pepper to a very fine vodka) and his taste for special food. Even adding when it all was supposed to be nice but tasted bland and boring.

    All in all, the smoking would only be 'Bond' if he was very peculiar with it, something we don't see in the films and makes little sense these days except for cigars. I wouldn't oppose him lighting an Esplendido, but cigarettes are not Bond (anymore).



  • Posts: 15,218
    I'd like to see him smoking cigars from time to time.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    edited October 2017 Posts: 5,131
  • Posts: 1,162
    To quote Blackadder - 'I only smoke after sex - so back in England - I'm a twenty a day man'

    I believe this is actually a quote from Richard Burton about Joan Collins.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    All in all, the smoking would only be 'Bond' if he was very peculiar with it, something we don't see in the films and makes little sense these days except for cigars. I wouldn't oppose him lighting an Esplendido, but cigarettes are not Bond (anymore).

    I would say that ordering handmade cigarettes with 3 gold bands and a special mix of tobacco is quite 'peculiar' (sic - I'm assuming you mean particular?).

    It seems to be the fact that smoking is not deemed as 'classy' it 'sophisticated' these days that is most people's objection rather than the health implications or the kiddies, but Bond wouldn't be chugging Lambert & Butler and I don't hear that much criticism of him looking rough and downing pills like Amy Winehouse in SF.

    Is killing people 'sophisticated'?
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    This 'sophisticated' argument rings hollow to me as well.

    At the end of the day if people want to pass judgement on smoking that's one thing, but I know a few reasonably wealthy people who enjoy a good drag now and then, whether it be from a pipe, a cigar or a fag.

    As was mentioned previously, is drinking Heineken sophisticated?
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,328
    All in all, the smoking would only be 'Bond' if he was very peculiar with it, something we don't see in the films and makes little sense these days except for cigars. I wouldn't oppose him lighting an Esplendido, but cigarettes are not Bond (anymore).

    I would say that ordering handmade cigarettes with 3 gold bands and a special mix of tobacco is quite 'peculiar' (sic - I'm assuming you mean particular?).

    Ah, yes, that's what happens on a busy workday. Anyway, it's sort of peculiar as well, I take it few, if none do this these days.

    It seems to be the fact that smoking is not deemed as 'classy' it 'sophisticated' these days that is most people's objection rather than the health implications or the kiddies, but Bond wouldn't be chugging Lambert & Butler and I don't hear that much criticism of him looking rough and downing pills like Amy Winehouse in SF.

    Is killing people 'sophisticated'?

    Well it may not be most people's objection, but for me it's an added ingredient. Let's put it this way, I prefer him none-smoking as:

    cons:
    - As stated above, it isn't particular
    - it isn't glamourous or sophisticated, on the contrary, it's now more connected to the working class
    - It's unhealthy and, with that, an easy to copy role-model
    - People who smoke smell. Rather, again, unsophisticated.
    - Smoking is considered by some a weakness
    - to stay as fit as Bond has to be to survive the action he's put through, he wouldn't be able to smoke in the first place.

    pros:
    - The literary character smoked (a very particular way).
    - 'It looks cool" (which is rather in the eye of the beholder, I don't agree).
    - ........

    And, if it is Daniel still playing, you'd have to ask someone who had a hard time stopping to start again, which in practical way isn't very nice.

    Now enlarging the 'pro' sentiment by using a sauce of PC-stigma isn't going to change those points, and besides, sometimes the PC brigade has a point.

    Of course some of the above points, but certainly not all, can be made for alcohol as well. Let's see:

    cons:
    - As stated above, it isn't particular (Bond's drinking is)
    - it isn't glamourous or sophisticated, on the contrary, it's now more connected to the working class
    - It's unhealthy and, with that, an easy to copy role-model
    - People who smoke smell. Rather, again, unsophisticated.
    - Smoking is considered by some a weakness Drinking isn't, as far as I'm aware of.
    - to stay as fit as Bond has to be to survive the action he's put through, he wouldn't be able to smoke in the first place. You might think differently, but I know a guy who's strong as an ox, trains every day 3 hours and basically downs a bottle of Whisky a day as well. Don't ask me how though.

    Perhaps, when they discover alcohol is the main source for liver cancer and it occurs as much as long cancer, sentiments will change. For now though, I don't think that's bound to happen.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 41,009
    People always note that Bond smoking is unhealthy, as if all those beers and martinis he's downing are good for his health.
  • Posts: 15,218
    bondjames wrote: »
    This 'sophisticated' argument rings hollow to me as well.

    At the end of the day if people want to pass judgement on smoking that's one thing, but I know a few reasonably wealthy people who enjoy a good drag now and then, whether it be from a pipe, a cigar or a fag.

    As was mentioned previously, is drinking Heineken sophisticated?
    bondjames wrote: »
    This 'sophisticated' argument rings hollow to me as well.

    At the end of the day if people want to pass judgement on smoking that's one thing, but I know a few reasonably wealthy people who enjoy a good drag now and then, whether it be from a pipe, a cigar or a fag.

    As was mentioned previously, is drinking Heineken sophisticated?

    It depends what you smoke surely. Cigar is still fairly sophisticated, snobby even. Pipes are old fashioned and borderline anachronistic. Cigarettes have been de-gentrified so to speak. Yes some wealthy people still smoke a fag but it's no longer snobby.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Ludovico wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    This 'sophisticated' argument rings hollow to me as well.

    At the end of the day if people want to pass judgement on smoking that's one thing, but I know a few reasonably wealthy people who enjoy a good drag now and then, whether it be from a pipe, a cigar or a fag.

    As was mentioned previously, is drinking Heineken sophisticated?

    It depends what you smoke surely. Cigar is still fairly sophisticated, snobby even. Pipes are old fashioned and borderline anachronistic. Cigarettes have been de-gentrified so to speak. Yes some wealthy people still smoke a fag but it's no longer snobby.
    True, it does depend on what one smokes. Bond hasn't smoked a cigarette since TLD if I'm not mistaken (Brosnan only smoked a cigar).

    I just find people are conflating the sophistication argument with other deeply visceral opinions on the subject here. Yes, it's not a good habit to have, but people still do it, including sophisticates.
  • Posts: 7,507
    I see someone seem to misinterpret the term 'sophisticated'. It does not have to do with wealth, money or expensiveness. And it is not synonymous with snobbery. Saying that something is sophisticated just because some 'wealthy people also do it' is an empty argument. Many wealthy people are very unsophishicated.
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,198
    One could simply say that in the 60s it was absolutely normal for men from all classes to smoke. Today not as many people smoke and it is often not allowed to smoke in bars and restaurants. So it is quite natural Bond smoked in the 60s but not today. I wouldn't mind him smoking today but also don't mind him not smoking.

    Not sure, however, if the working class argument counts because when the it is common in the working class, why does Craig's Bond not smoke?
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,198
    jobo wrote: »
    I see someone seem to misinterpret the term 'sophisticated'. It does not have to do with wealth, money or expensiveness. And it is not synonymous with snobbery. Saying that something is sophisticated just because some 'wealthy people also do it' is an empty argument. Many wealthy people are very unsophishicated.

    Just so. One only has to look at a randomly picked rap star to know how unclassy some rich people can be. Moreover, not all expensive items are classy either. A Lamborghini for instance is downright vulgar.

    Sophisticating oneself has to do with education. Either it's the way you have been brought up, the way you've educated yourself or both. It is about appreciating the subtle nuances in quality products. Of which some happen to be expensive, though not all.

    Furthermore it has to do with the way you talk and present yourself: well-behaved and well-dressed.
  • BondAficionadoBondAficionado Former IMDBer
    Posts: 1,890
    After four Craig films with him not lighting up I don't think it'd be wise to do so in B25. It would be out of character. (Yes, the irony.)

    Ever since Brosnan started it seemed like they were trying to move away from smoking and it's blatantly obvious by the time TND came out. I mean, Bond's first words in the film are "filthy habit" to a smoker after knocking him out cold. At the Carver announcement he smashes an ashtray on a goon's head and later punches someone asking for a light. There's a message in the violence he enacts and it couldn't be more obvious.
  • Agent_99Agent_99 enjoys a spirited ride as much as the next girl
    Posts: 3,181
    Funnily enough, I was thinking just a couple of days before this kicked off that I'd like to see Bond having an occasional smoke again. Apart from anything else, it can be very sexy. (Not so much in real life, I grant you, but certainly in movies.)
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited October 2017 Posts: 23,883
    jobo wrote: »
    I see someone seem to misinterpret the term 'sophisticated'. It does not have to do with wealth, money or expensiveness. And it is not synonymous with snobbery. Saying that something is sophisticated just because some 'wealthy people also do it' is an empty argument. Many wealthy people are very unsophishicated.
    Goes without saying but thank you for pointing that out. I should have been more clear. The people I was referring to have wealth and are educated and well read. Intellectuals, if you will.
    There's a message in the violence he enacts and it couldn't be more obvious.
    The irony of this remark isn't lost on me.
  • Posts: 7,507
    @bondjames

    I was not only refering to you, but many of the members who seem to want Bond to splash a lot of cash, thereby presumably demonstrating his sophistication. That is not what it's about for me.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,328
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    People always note that Bond smoking is unhealthy, as if all those beers and martinis he's downing are good for his health.

    Of course some of the above points, but certainly not all, can be made for alcohol as well. Let's see:

    cons:
    - As stated above, it isn't particular (Bond's drinking is)
    - it isn't glamourous or sophisticated, on the contrary, it's now more connected to the working class
    - It's unhealthy and, with that, an easy to copy role-model
    - People who smoke smell. Rather, again, unsophisticated.
    - Smoking is considered by some a weakness Drinking isn't, as far as I'm aware of.
    - to stay as fit as Bond has to be to survive the action he's put through, he wouldn't be able to smoke in the first place. You might think differently, but I know a guy who's strong as an ox, trains every day 3 hours and basically downs a bottle of Whisky a day as well. Don't ask me how though.

    Perhaps, when they discover alcohol is the main source for liver cancer and it occurs as much as long cancer, sentiments will change. For now though, I don't think that's bound to happen.

    Just above your post my friend ;-)
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    jobo wrote: »
    @bondjames

    I was not only refering to you, but many of the members who seem to want Bond to splash a lot of cash, thereby presumably demonstrating his sophistication. That is not what it's about for me.
    Understood @jobo. No, I agree it's not about splashing money about and that's why I object to the overemphasis on things like Aston Martins and Omegas in the recent films at the expense of that refined knowledge which existed in the earlier films.
  • Posts: 7,507
    I don't think the matter is wether smoking is unhealthy or not. At the heart of the matter is the notion that smoking makes you look cool. That is presumably why people miss it? For me, smoking doesn't look cool ( not talking about the outfit here ;) ). It is not the cigaret that makes the famous introduction in Dr No iconic, it is the way Connery moves and talks, and the way the scene is shot. I object to the notion that smoking is a wanted or necesarry accesory in making Bond look classy.
  • Posts: 15,218
    bondjames wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    This 'sophisticated' argument rings hollow to me as well.

    At the end of the day if people want to pass judgement on smoking that's one thing, but I know a few reasonably wealthy people who enjoy a good drag now and then, whether it be from a pipe, a cigar or a fag.

    As was mentioned previously, is drinking Heineken sophisticated?

    It depends what you smoke surely. Cigar is still fairly sophisticated, snobby even. Pipes are old fashioned and borderline anachronistic. Cigarettes have been de-gentrified so to speak. Yes some wealthy people still smoke a fag but it's no longer snobby.
    True, it does depend on what one smokes. Bond hasn't smoked a cigarette since TLD if I'm not mistaken (Brosnan only smoked a cigar).

    I just find people are conflating the sophistication argument with other deeply visceral opinions on the subject here. Yes, it's not a good habit to have, but people still do it, including sophisticates.

    That's the one thing I actually did not dislike about DAD: Bond smoking a cigar.

    I think back in the 50s-60s, smoking something was a sign of class and virility. Now, not really. Yes some snobs do smoke but it's no longer a sine qua non sign of snobbery or sophistication. Not cigarettes amyway. Cigars I'd argue that it still very much has that aura of sophistication.
  • BondAficionadoBondAficionado Former IMDBer
    Posts: 1,890
    bondjames wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    I see someone seem to misinterpret the term 'sophisticated'. It does not have to do with wealth, money or expensiveness. And it is not synonymous with snobbery. Saying that something is sophisticated just because some 'wealthy people also do it' is an empty argument. Many wealthy people are very unsophishicated.
    Goes without saying but thank you for pointing that out. I should have been more clear. The people I was referring to have wealth and are educated and well read. Intellectuals, if you will.
    There's a message in the violence he enacts and it couldn't be more obvious.
    The irony of this remark isn't lost on me.

    Really?! /s
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited October 2017 Posts: 23,883
    bondjames wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    I see someone seem to misinterpret the term 'sophisticated'. It does not have to do with wealth, money or expensiveness. And it is not synonymous with snobbery. Saying that something is sophisticated just because some 'wealthy people also do it' is an empty argument. Many wealthy people are very unsophishicated.
    Goes without saying but thank you for pointing that out. I should have been more clear. The people I was referring to have wealth and are educated and well read. Intellectuals, if you will.
    There's a message in the violence he enacts and it couldn't be more obvious.
    The irony of this remark isn't lost on me.

    Really?! /s
    Yep. Seriously.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    edited October 2017 Posts: 9,511
    I hate smoking, but, yes, I have to agree that a cigar today seems to be a “sophisticated “ vice (I felt dumber for writing that); I’d say it looks cooler now than when Moore did it (surprisingly, when I was younger, in my early double digits and teens, I always hated Moore lighting a cigar, and wished he’d smoke a cigarette like Connery; now I’d hate to see Craig light a cigarette, but, if the scene was appropriate (dining with the villain; tense dialogue; cognacs; something deadly being indicated (like Bond being in a hopeless situation and there is no escape)), and Craig decides to accept a cigar being presented to him, yes, yes I would accept is as believable to his character— especially if he then tried to use it as a weapon/way of escape.
  • Posts: 1,162
    peter wrote: »
    I hate smoking, but, yes, I have to agree that a cigar today seems to be a “sophisticated “ vice (I felt dumber for writing that); I’d say it looks cooler now than when Moore did it (surprisingly, when I was younger, in my early double digits and teens, I always hated Moore lighting a cigar, and wished he’d smoke a cigarette like Connery; now I’d hate to see Craig light a cigarette, but, if the scene was appropriate (dining with the villain; tense dialogue; cognacs; something deadly being indicated (like Bond being in a hopeless situation and there is no escape)), and Craig decides to accept a cigar being presented to him, yes, yes I would accept is as believable to his character— especially if he then tried to use it as a weapon/way of escape.

    Really? I always thought RM had a face just made for having a cigar in it. Just like the one and only Jean Paul Belmondo, for instance. I think it has something to do with demeanor as well as the face itself. Both tend to have rather wide cut faces. With Craig I think it would not work well. He would much more look like a guy out of from Martin Scorsese film than a sophisticated British gentleman.
  • Posts: 19,339
    peter wrote: »
    I hate smoking, but, yes, I have to agree that a cigar today seems to be a “sophisticated “ vice (I felt dumber for writing that); I’d say it looks cooler now than when Moore did it (surprisingly, when I was younger, in my early double digits and teens, I always hated Moore lighting a cigar, and wished he’d smoke a cigarette like Connery; now I’d hate to see Craig light a cigarette, but, if the scene was appropriate (dining with the villain; tense dialogue; cognacs; something deadly being indicated (like Bond being in a hopeless situation and there is no escape)), and Craig decides to accept a cigar being presented to him, yes, yes I would accept is as believable to his character— especially if he then tried to use it as a weapon/way of escape.

    Really? I always thought RM had a face just made for having a cigar in it. Just like the one and only Jean Paul Belmondo, for instance. I think it has something to do with demeanor as well as the face itself. Both tend to have rather wide cut faces. With Craig I think it would not work well. He would much more look like a guy out of from Martin Scorsese film than a sophisticated British gentleman.

    The cigar certainly fitted Sir Roger in 'The Wild Geese' .
  • peterpeter Toronto
    edited October 2017 Posts: 9,511
    WILD GEESE, maybe, but when I was a kid, I hated it. I wanted Moore Bond to smoke a cigarette like Connery. I think I found Moore’s cigars ridiculously long— especially that profile shot in L&LD (I can’t say that that feeling has left me, even to this day).
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