Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • Posts: 12,466
    QoS is a Bond film I've been thinking about a lot lately. When I first saw it, it managed to squeeze into the #9 or #10 spot. I've had it at #16 for a while now, but I feel like it's one that has the potential to shoot up or sink lower depending on my mood when I watch it. If I picked a single Bond film that my opinion shifts the most on, it might just be QoS.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    CR/GE
    SF
    QoS
    TND
    SP/DAD
    TWINE
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,114
    GE
    TWINE
    CR
    TND
    SF
    DAD
    QOS
    SP
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,253
    'James Bond films should not be 'fun'.

    I love the writings of Ian Fleming, amongst other things because of the environments he creates, how Bond himself is human, flawed, but always pushing through even though the odds are against him and always at a personal cost. He shows the darkness behind the glamour in a grander-then life way. Orbis non sufficit.

    The films however too often make a mockery of this. Action is the way to go, at the cost of tension. Bond doesn't lose a step at all, never makes a mistake and rolls on through. This mockery was started in the Connery years after Thunderball. Thankfully we returned a few times to more serious stories, in which we still were wondering how he would pull through (noteably OHMSS). And the interesting thing is that those films are always rated the highest (again OHMSS, TSWLM, FYEO, Dalton's films, GE, CR, SF(not an extensive list, as it is in grades)).

    So, Bond films shouldn't be fun. We've got M:I series, XXX and Austin Powers for that. Bond films should be darker, slightly bizarre and always within the realm of reality. Bond should have a hard time.

    For me, Craig's tenure has been that, with the excellent CR and QoS (allthough the latter needed some digestion) and SF. The film where Bond had it too easy (SP) is again the worst of this run, with no tention at all except for the Hinx fight. But even the torture scene was made too easy and Bond had too little damage from there to make it work.



  • ForYourEyesOnlyForYourEyesOnly In the untained cradle of the heavens
    edited November 2017 Posts: 1,984
    I prefer the spectrum of choice that the Bond series has offered us. It expands the potential audience and there's a solid amount of films of both the "fun" and "dark" varieties. The Bond series hasn't been constrained by Fleming since You Only Live Twice in 1967, and 50 years on, I think it's been the better for it. A considerable amount of Bond's pop culture appeal owes itself to the deviation from Fleming that we had in the Moore and Brosnan eras; they were actually more popular than some of the more loyal entries to Bond like OHMSS or Dalton's duology, even if we don't think they're as good in the critical sense. Personal preference is up to you; but I would be for keeping a range of possible preferences.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    edited November 2017 Posts: 7,114
    Fair enough, and despite other flaws I’d add TMWTGG to that list of ‘is he going to pull through?’.

    Nevertheless, speaking of Fleming, his Bond was also classy, bon vivant and not an everyday muscleman. Something we’ve lost during the Craig years.

    The reason why I liked Bond more than any other (action) hero was his refined tastes and his cultural snobbery. Something that set him apart from others. I miss that a lot.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    'James Bond films should not be 'fun'.

    I love the writings of Ian Fleming, amongst other things because of the environments he creates, how Bond himself is human, flawed, but always pushing through even though the odds are against him and always at a personal cost. He shows the darkness behind the glamour in a grander-then life way. Orbis non sufficit.

    The films however too often make a mockery of this. Action is the way to go, at the cost of tension. Bond doesn't lose a step at all, never makes a mistake and rolls on through. This mockery was started in the Connery years after Thunderball. Thankfully we returned a few times to more serious stories, in which we still were wondering how he would pull through (noteably OHMSS). And the interesting thing is that those films are always rated the highest (again OHMSS, TSWLM, FYEO, Dalton's films, GE, CR, SF(not an extensive list, as it is in grades)).

    So, Bond films shouldn't be fun. We've got M:I series, XXX and Austin Powers for that. Bond films should be darker, slightly bizarre and always within the realm of reality. Bond should have a hard time.

    For me, Craig's tenure has been that, with the excellent CR and QoS (allthough the latter needed some digestion) and SF. The film where Bond had it too easy (SP) is again the worst of this run, with no tention at all except for the Hinx fight. But even the torture scene was made too easy and Bond had too little damage from there to make it work.

    Fabulous post. It's no coincidence that as a general rule the closer you stick to Fleming the better your Bond film will be. Perhaps the bloke knew his onions when it came to Bond?
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Fair enough, and despite other flaws I’d add TMWTGG to that list of ‘is he going to pull through.

    Indeed. Wondering if Goodnight's bumbling arse was going to get him incinerated had me on the edge of my seat.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2017 Posts: 23,883
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Fair enough, and despite other flaws I’d add TMWTGG to that list of ‘is he going to pull through?’.

    Nevertheless, speaking of Fleming, his Bond was also classy, bon vivant and not an everyday muscleman. Something we’ve lost during the Craig years.

    The reason why I liked Bond more than any other (action) hero was his refined tastes and his cultural snobbery. Something that set him apart from others. I miss that a lot.
    I couldn't agree more. The incumbent has never been all that credible delivering that (of course there is CR, but there are very few people who will not look classy and stylish in a casino).
  • Posts: 15,114
    Villains should not be Bond's equals but Bond's superiors. They have to be more intelligent and better organized.
  • Ludovico wrote: »
    Villains should not be Bond's equals but Bond's superiors. They have to be more intelligent and better organized.

    I never thought about that, but you're absolutely right.
  • bondjames wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Fair enough, and despite other flaws I’d add TMWTGG to that list of ‘is he going to pull through?’.

    Nevertheless, speaking of Fleming, his Bond was also classy, bon vivant and not an everyday muscleman. Something we’ve lost during the Craig years.

    The reason why I liked Bond more than any other (action) hero was his refined tastes and his cultural snobbery. Something that set him apart from others. I miss that a lot.
    I couldn't agree more. The incumbent has never been all that credible delivering that (of course there is CR, but there are very few people who will not look classy and stylish in a casino).

    But even that he manages. Taking off his Texido jacket and bending over the poker table like a Texan nouveau riche didn't sit well with me at all. Neither did the talking while eating part afterwards when dining with Vesper.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,785
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Nevertheless, speaking of Fleming, his Bond was also classy, bon vivant and not an everyday muscleman. Something we’ve lost during the Craig years.

    The reason why I liked Bond more than any other (action) hero was his refined tastes and his cultural snobbery. Something that set him apart from others. I miss that a lot.
    I wouldn't call Bond a bon vivant, or an outright playboy. CASINO ROYALE established him right as enjoying the fine living of food and drink and women in a classy setting like a casino or restaurant. He's comfortable there, with the ultimate snobbery: one-upping the snobs themselves. But it's not his world and he's got a dirty job to do and he's tough enough to do it.

    Fleming went as far as to have him dislike tea, to say there was something foreign about him, even non-British. I like all those things, Bond should be the singular hero with a thousand faces for his time.

    Craig Bond isn't really a muscle-man, is he? That's not how I see him. Just fit and developed.
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    edited November 2017 Posts: 14,569
    Just continuing the topic of the invisible car from the production thread, and how quite a few members said they don't have a problem with it:

    I never really had a problem with it either, and for a while, even championed the 'ahead-of-its-time' approach, but over the years (and especially now, 15 years after the film) I feel it was looking too far ahead. The only issue I have is the tech they are using in regards to the vehicle design. For a decent cloaking result, wouldn't you need the wheels and wheel arches covered behind a completely sealed shell? But even then, you'd still see the bottom of the tyres near the ground.

    I realize we are to suspend belief to a degree, but I can't help imagine Bond questioning Q, wondering if/how the tyres themselves are embedded with cameras.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,395
    1. GE
    2. TWINE
    3. CR
    4. TND
    5. DAD
    6. SF
    7. SP
    8. QoS
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,197
    1 GE
    2 SF
    3 CR
    4 TWINE
    5 TND
    6 SP
    7 QoS
    8 DAD
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,968
    GE
    QoS
    CR
    TWINE
    DAD
    TND
    SF
    SP
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 14,569
    I find it extremely difficult to rate the films these days, but am curious to see how I'd place the Bros/Craig eras. So while we're at it:

    1. CR
    2. GE
    3. TND
    4. QOS
    5. TWINE
    6. SF
    7. SP
    8. DAD

    Ranking based on a mixture of entertainment and quality. For example, I consider DAD much more enjoyable than Craig's most recent two, but it's flaws are perhaps enough to put it in last place. I consider SP slightly more enjoyable than SF, but SF is the better made film of the two. TND and QOS are pretty equally awesome, but TND has a more Bondian feel. Same with TWINE- it sits above SF/SP simply because it feels more like a Bond film. CR remains untouchable, while GE is not far behind CR- two of the absolutely best Bond films.

    Looking at how I ranked the 8 films here, I cannot determine whether the Bros or Craig era is on top - which makes sense, as I already knew I enjoy the two eras pretty equally.
  • Posts: 7,507
    Controversial opinions:

    Only Connery looked more natural in a tuxedo than Craig

    And...

    Craig is far more suave and stylish than Brozza.
  • Posts: 15,114
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Villains should not be Bond's equals but Bond's superiors. They have to be more intelligent and better organized.

    I never thought about that, but you're absolutely right.

    When they say a villain is Bond's equal or Bond's match it irritates me more than when they say it about a Bond girl. I mean how unexciting is it to have your hero go against reasonably difficult odds?
  • Posts: 7,507
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Villains should not be Bond's equals but Bond's superiors. They have to be more intelligent and better organized.

    I never thought about that, but you're absolutely right.

    When they say a villain is Bond's equal or Bond's match it irritates me more than when they say it about a Bond girl. I mean how unexciting is it to have your hero go against reasonably difficult odds?


    The 'Bond's equal' has been used to death to the point where it carries no significance anymore. They said Silva was 'Bond's equal'. I thought he was powerfull and organised enough.
  • jobo wrote: »
    Controversial opinions:

    Only Connery looked more natural in a tuxedo than Craig

    And...

    Craig is far more suave and stylish than Brozza.

    That's not controversial, that's plain wrong!
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2017 Posts: 23,883
    I'm hardly the biggest Brozza fan but he wipes the floor with Craig when it comes to suaveness imho. In fact, 'suave' is the last word I'd use to describe Craig. As for looking natural in a tuxedo I guess the definition of what that means has changed these days, as two sizes too small appears to be in the 'in thing' with the kids (and middle aged men trying to look good in Tom Ford).
  • Posts: 7,507
    bondjames wrote: »
    I'm hardly the biggest Brozza fan but he wipes the floor with Craig when it comes to suaveness imho. In fact, 'suave' is the last word I'd use to describe Craig. As for looking natural in a tuxedo I guess the definition of what that means has changed these days, as two sizes too small appears to be in the 'in thing' with the kids (and middle aged men trying to look good in Tom Ford).


    Brosnan is only better at looking smug. Craig moves far more graciously.
  • Posts: 12,466
    Craig is awfully suave through the casino sequence in SF.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2017 Posts: 23,883
    jobo wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I'm hardly the biggest Brozza fan but he wipes the floor with Craig when it comes to suaveness imho. In fact, 'suave' is the last word I'd use to describe Craig. As for looking natural in a tuxedo I guess the definition of what that means has changed these days, as two sizes too small appears to be in the 'in thing' with the kids (and middle aged men trying to look good in Tom Ford).


    Brosnan is only better at looking smug. Craig moves far more graciously.
    Brosnan is indeed smug, but he wears a tux very well. Craig moving graciously? I really don't know how to respond to that. Connery, Moore and Laz knew how to move graciously, but again, it's not a term I would associate with Craig.

    Ruthless, vicious, determined on the other hand? Yes to all of that, but not gracious.
  • Posts: 7,415
    jobo wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I'm hardly the biggest Brozza fan but he wipes the floor with Craig when it comes to suaveness imho. In fact, 'suave' is the last word I'd use to describe Craig. As for looking natural in a tuxedo I guess the definition of what that means has changed these days, as two sizes too small appears to be in the 'in thing' with the kids (and middle aged men trying to look good in Tom Ford).


    Brosnan is only better at looking smug. Craig moves far more graciously.

    Agree on both counts.When Craig enters the casino in the tux in CR for the first time, he is suave personified.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    FoxRox wrote: »
    Craig is awfully suave through the casino sequence in SF.
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    When Craig enters the casino in the tux in CR for the first time, he is suave personified.
    Sorry folks, I can't agree. He looked determined and ready for business in CR, but not 'suave' in my book. At least not the in the traditional sense of the term. In SF I found him affected throughout that casino sequence.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,395
    This will be controversial: Brosnan best performance was GE.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    This will be controversial: Brosnan best performance was GE.
    I have no problem with him in it although I find him a bit unsure on occasion.
  • Posts: 16,154
    Speaking of suavity, in my controversial opinion, Roger Moore was the most suave Bond.
    Pierce was fairly dapper as well, but to me it seemed a bit self conscious.
    Sean, mentored by Terence Young in the art of suavity, worked hard to get as dapper as he eventually became and IMO it paid off.
    Roger on the other hand had a natural suaveness about him that I don't think any of the others could match.
    I'd say Craig was probably at his most suave in the casino scenes, in CR, or in the dinner with Vesper. Suave, isn't the first adjective that comes to mind when I think of Craig. Neither for him or Tim.
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