Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    FoxRox wrote: »
    I doubt this will be controversial, but while I really did like George Lazenby as James Bond, I am actually glad he only did OHMSS. It gives the film an even more special feel.

    There's something to be said for this. George's legacy would surely be somewhat tarnished had he slogged his way through the weak entries of the early 70s.

    Better to burn short and bright than to fade away amongst an embarrassing sea of slot machine elephants, JW Pepper and slide whistles.
  • Posts: 15,114
    I don't think Lazenby could have carried the other movies either. Whether they'd have the tone they had or something more serious like OHMSS. My other controversial opinion and it pains me to say it: the franchise could not have survived a second OHMSS in a row and DAF was as needed as it is (it hurts typing this) and only Sean Connery could sell it.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I don't think Lazenby could have carried the other movies either. Whether they'd have the tone they had or something more serious like OHMSS. My other controversial opinion and it pains me to say it: the franchise could not have survived a second OHMSS in a row and DAF was as needed as it is (it hurts typing this) and only Sean Connery could sell it.

    I can see where you're coming from there but who knows if a serious DAF with Laz hunting down Blofeld would've sunk the series? Impossible to tell really. Cubby and Harry certainly had enough faith in him to keep going.

    Let's not forget that OHMSS still made a very healthy profit just not quite in the spectacular league of the previous films (and YOLT was already down on TB - possibly due to CR67 - so natural fatigue had started to set in with the audience and spymania had peaked around 65/66) so I don't think EON would've been too concerned that the box office was a little bit down. If a Laz sequel to OHMSS had brought in way less box office wise then they might have had to make a decision.

    Had it been a flop they could have let him go, waited a few years then relaunched with Rog.
    Admittedly Sean and DAF kept things ticking over but it was really Rog who proved the series could survive without Sean.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,395
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I don't think Lazenby could have carried the other movies either. Whether they'd have the tone they had or something more serious like OHMSS. My other controversial opinion and it pains me to say it: the franchise could not have survived a second OHMSS in a row and DAF was as needed as it is (it hurts typing this) and only Sean Connery could sell it.

    I can see where you're coming from there but who knows if a serious DAF with Laz hunting down Blofeld would've sunk the series? Impossible to tell really. Cubby and Harry certainly had enough faith in him to keep going.

    Let's not forget that OHMSS still made a very healthy profit just not quite in the spectacular league of the previous films (and YOLT was already down on TB - possibly due to CR67 - so natural fatigue had started to set in with the audience and spymania had peaked around 65/66) so I don't think EON would've been too concerned that the box office was a little bit down. If a Laz sequel to OHMSS had brought in way less box office wise then they might have had to make a decision.

    Had it been a flop they could have let him go, waited a few years then relaunched with Rog.
    Admittedly Sean and DAF kept things ticking over but it was really Rog who proved the series could survive without Sean.

    Actually we do know. Look what happened with Dalton. People were curious about a new Bond after Moore was in the role so long, there was faith in EON to give a good showing, and the film (TLD) performed well. Then a few years later once that bubble of good will, enthusiasm and hype had died down LTK came along and underperformed. Doubtlessly this would have been the case for Laz, had he decided on returning. There is always a slight "bump" when a new actor comes in, which is why often their sophomoric effort gets seen as a dud or "tricky second album."

    OHMSS was indeed a success, but if you Dail down the ambient noise the fact is that people didn't take to Lazenby or fully appreciate the film at the time. A slump would have been almost inevitable had they attempt a follow up.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,253
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I don't think Lazenby could have carried the other movies either. Whether they'd have the tone they had or something more serious like OHMSS. My other controversial opinion and it pains me to say it: the franchise could not have survived a second OHMSS in a row and DAF was as needed as it is (it hurts typing this) and only Sean Connery could sell it.

    I can see where you're coming from there but who knows if a serious DAF with Laz hunting down Blofeld would've sunk the series? Impossible to tell really. Cubby and Harry certainly had enough faith in him to keep going.

    Let's not forget that OHMSS still made a very healthy profit just not quite in the spectacular league of the previous films (and YOLT was already down on TB - possibly due to CR67 - so natural fatigue had started to set in with the audience and spymania had peaked around 65/66) so I don't think EON would've been too concerned that the box office was a little bit down. If a Laz sequel to OHMSS had brought in way less box office wise then they might have had to make a decision.

    Had it been a flop they could have let him go, waited a few years then relaunched with Rog.
    Admittedly Sean and DAF kept things ticking over but it was really Rog who proved the series could survive without Sean.

    Actually we do know. Look what happened with Dalton. People were curious about a new Bond after Moore was in the role so long, there was faith in EON to give a good showing, and the film (TLD) performed well. Then a few years later once that bubble of good will, enthusiasm and hype had died down LTK came along and underperformed. Doubtlessly this would have been the case for Laz, had he decided on returning. There is always a slight "bump" when a new actor comes in, which is why often their sophomoric effort gets seen as a dud or "tricky second album."

    OHMSS was indeed a success, but if you Dail down the ambient noise the fact is that people didn't take to Lazenby or fully appreciate the film at the time. A slump would have been almost inevitable had they attempt a follow up.

    Well you're missing out the factor that Lazenby already said, before it's release, he wouldn't return. The negative press it created may or may not have kept people away/ or attracted them. In that way, nd in his performance, he's completely different from Dalton. He's got far more 'joi de fivre' in his performance (as he's gotl oads of it as a person). The only thing that I think would've worked against him is his own personality, his inability to conform to the regime of Bond and film-making. In other words, I don't think he would've been the same 'Bond'in the next film as he was in OHMSS.
  • Posts: 15,114
    @TheWizardOfIce Of course this is all speculative but I think whoever was next after Connery was borderline condemned to fail. Roger Moore had already his fan base and I think DAF prepared the public for him to a degree. I don't like DAF one bit, so it pains me to say this but I think it saves the franchise by being the parody it was.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    I'm not aware of all the details, but it appears EON were set on a course correction post OHMSS. Although that film is viewed as a classic today, from what I can tell they weren't all that satisfied with its performance at the time. So irrespective, I believe they were going to go down the Vegas chintz path to appeal to the masses with the next one (someone can correct me if they know for sure that I'm wrong) rather than a direct and true to novel sequel. Only Connery could have delivered that with certainty imho. Ultimately, I'm personally glad they took the route they did.
  • Posts: 19,339
    bondjames wrote: »
    I'm not aware of all the details, but it appears EON were set on a course correction post OHMSS. Although that film is viewed as a classic today, from what I can tell they weren't all that satisfied with its performance at the time. So irrespective, I believe they were going to go down the Vegas chintz path to appeal to the masses with the next one (someone can correct me if they know for sure that I'm wrong) rather than a direct and true to novel sequel. Only Connery could have delivered that with certainty imho. Ultimately, I'm personally glad they took the route they did.

    John Gavin would have been a disaster.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited December 2017 Posts: 23,883
    barryt007 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I'm not aware of all the details, but it appears EON were set on a course correction post OHMSS. Although that film is viewed as a classic today, from what I can tell they weren't all that satisfied with its performance at the time. So irrespective, I believe they were going to go down the Vegas chintz path to appeal to the masses with the next one (someone can correct me if they know for sure that I'm wrong) rather than a direct and true to novel sequel. Only Connery could have delivered that with certainty imho. Ultimately, I'm personally glad they took the route they did.

    John Gavin would have been a disaster.
    I know nothing about Gavin and haven't seen him in anything so can't really comment. I can't imagine he would have been able to compete with Connery though. I have Spartacus but haven't seen it (may get to it today just out of interest now).
  • Posts: 19,339
    Let us know what you think .
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,114
    I like George Lazenby too. I am one of those who think OHMSS benefits from his more human Bond. Not once I thought he did poorly.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,114
    I just have difficulties picturing Sean, the confident alpha male of the first few films, to be so vulnerable as rookie George.
    And even with his limited acting experience, George really pulled off that last scene. Can't really see any of the others doing it that well, save for maybe Tim.
  • Posts: 15,114
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    I just have difficulties picturing Sean, the confident alpha male of the first few films, to be so vulnerable as rookie George.
    And even with his limited acting experience, George really pulled off that last scene. Can't really see any of the others doing it that well, save for maybe Tim.

    I can actually imagine Rog pulling it fine.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited December 2017 Posts: 23,883
    Laz was suitably composed as Bond for a man who had just lost his spouse. Never lost his cool although obviously grieving. I liked that. Dalton and Brosnan couldn't have done it so well imho, based on the evidence of their contributions in other films (LTK Della and TWINE Elektra respectively come to mind). Unnecessary theatrics would have come into play most likely.

    I don't think I've ever seen Big Sean vulnerable (except when on the rack and after being shot in TB) but that doesn't mean he couldn't have done it. Moore and Craig could have done it also.
  • ForYourEyesOnlyForYourEyesOnly In the untained cradle of the heavens
    Posts: 1,984
    Yeah, Sean didn't ever do something like OHMSS in his own run as Bond, but had he been sufficiently motivated I don't see why he couldn't have, and to an even greater effect given his history with the series.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    And Daniel.
  • ForYourEyesOnlyForYourEyesOnly In the untained cradle of the heavens
    edited December 2017 Posts: 1,984
    I don't doubt Craig could pull it off either, but that's because he did do something similar with Vesper. His Bond was all about bringing out the Fleming element from the onset.

    Whereas Connery and Moore played it cool and collected all the time, but it's plausible that they could temporarily suspend that portrayal and pull off the final OHMSS scene with the necessary gravitas without overacting (which Dalton and Brosnan would be at risk of doing). This is based on hints in their Bond movies and their non-Bond work.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    I just have difficulties picturing Sean, the confident alpha male of the first few films, to be so vulnerable as rookie George.
    And even with his limited acting experience, George really pulled off that last scene. Can't really see any of the others doing it that well, save for maybe Tim.

    Despite his lack of experience, I thought Lazenby managed to scrape thought the quieter moments (the action sequences are where he did his acting), though he was surrounded by actors of strong calibre. Dalton could have done it without needed the same support.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,253
    Sean could've, were it at the time of Thunderball. But there's a reason why he left and it shows all too well.
  • I think if Connery had actually tried it would have made OHMSS even more powerful but I don't have faith that he would have done at that point. And even in his prime I can't see him doing the vulnerable side that Lazenby played so well.

    I'm happy with OHMSS as it is. If anything I wish Lazenby could have done TB and YOLT too (properly and in the right order).
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    I'm not convinced that Connery could have pulled off OHMSS, even in his prime.
  • Posts: 7,415
    I'm not convinced that Connery could have pulled off OHMSS, even in his prime.

    Have to agree with this! Just cant see Connery in those scenes with Rigg!
  • Posts: 12,466
    Agreed. I prefer Sean as Bond, but Lazenby was just the perfect man for OHMSS honestly. Very different Bonds, but each very good.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,711
    I think Sean is the only Bond who COULDN'T have pulled it off. And I'm one of those who doesn't care for Pierce. In fact, I can't think of any film (let alone Bond) where Sean had a believable romantic relationship. It just wouldn't have worked.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited December 2017 Posts: 9,117
    I'm not convinced that Connery could have pulled off OHMSS, even in his prime.
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    I'm not convinced that Connery could have pulled off OHMSS, even in his prime.

    Have to agree with this! Just cant see Connery in those scenes with Rigg!
    I think Sean is the only Bond who COULDN'T have pulled it off. And I'm one of those who doesn't care for Pierce. In fact, I can't think of any film (let alone Bond) where Sean had a believable romantic relationship. It just wouldn't have worked.

    I'm with you all.

    Sean is a great movie star but I don't think that necessarily translates very well into selling crying over his dead wife. Rog the same for that matter.

    Dalts in the Della scene is terrible, he improves a bit but the scene is not a patch on popping the baloon when Saunders cops it.

    Broz would've been interesting given his actual experience of bereavement but I fear some overacting would have been unavoidable and he falls into the same movie star bracket as Sean and Rog (although obviously not in the same league).

    Which leaves us with Dan and given his work in CR I think we can safely say he'd have done an admirable job but there's no way I'd change a thing. Laz nails it.

  • Mathis1 wrote: »
    I'm not convinced that Connery could have pulled off OHMSS, even in his prime.

    Have to agree with this! Just cant see Connery in those scenes with Rigg!

    Connery's Bond was so rough on women it's hard to imagine him in a tender love story, not that Connery doesn't have the acting ability to do it. The dynamic with Rigg would have also been very different, Connery would have been a lot more authoritative, whereas in the film as is it feels like she's the one in charge a lot of the time.
  • Posts: 16,154
    CountJohn wrote: »
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    I'm not convinced that Connery could have pulled off OHMSS, even in his prime.

    Have to agree with this! Just cant see Connery in those scenes with Rigg!

    Connery's Bond was so rough on women it's hard to imagine him in a tender love story, not that Connery doesn't have the acting ability to do it. The dynamic with Rigg would have also been very different, Connery would have been a lot more authoritative, whereas in the film as is it feels like she's the one in charge a lot of the time.

    Good point. She is in charge and I think a lot of that is due to Diana's experience and self confidence in front of the camera, whereas George was learning the ropes. I really think had Sean done OHMSS, Diana's Tracy would have truly been his equal. I think he would have really met his match in Rigg and to see Connery/Bond fall head over heels for her would have been quite something. I have no doubt he could have pulled it off. In addition seeing Connery's Bond develop that relationship only to lose her in end could have had quite an impact.
  • Posts: 12,466
    It definitely would have been interesting to see Connery in OHMSS. However, given the choice of replacing Lazenby, I would not.
  • Posts: 16,154
    FoxRox wrote: »
    It definitely would have been interesting to see Connery in OHMSS. However, given the choice of replacing Lazenby, I would not.

    I wouldn't change it either. Had Sean done OHMSS and it been his last, I have a hard time picturing what type of tone the first post Connery film would've taken. I imagine DIAMONDS would still follow, but we might actually have gotten John Gavin or someone like Burt Reynolds then.
  • Posts: 684
    CountJohn wrote: »
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    I'm not convinced that Connery could have pulled off OHMSS, even in his prime.

    Have to agree with this! Just cant see Connery in those scenes with Rigg!

    Connery's Bond was so rough on women it's hard to imagine him in a tender love story, not that Connery doesn't have the acting ability to do it. The dynamic with Rigg would have also been very different, Connery would have been a lot more authoritative, whereas in the film as is it feels like she's the one in charge a lot of the time.
    I think that's the key. Connery absolutely could've handled the acting side of it (in fact I think he had the best equipped chops of the lot), but picturing his Bond in a love story is difficult, given what he had played to that point.

    I wonder how his doing OHMSS would've affected both his legacy as Bond and that of the film. Would we look at his Bond differently? The franchise? Impossible to say of course without seeing the hypothetical film. It just seems to me that Joe Public sees OHMSS as 'that weird one where the guy who only did one film gets married." The pairing up of the one-off actor and the unusual-for-Bond conceit kind of add to the film's alienness. But had Connery done it, it would've just been another Connery Bond film. The series would've had a harder time escaping from OHMSS to something else, I think. And Connery's Bond might be seen as less static. I'm not sure if either would've been for the best.

    Which is why...
    FoxRox wrote: »
    It definitely would have been interesting to see Connery in OHMSS. However, given the choice of replacing Lazenby, I would not.
    I agree.
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