Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • edited December 2017 Posts: 4,615
    I think there are clear similarities between the Laz Bond and the Craig Bond. They play more on the sensitive side of the character and, in that, shows that OHMSS was ahead of it's time.
    The test to this, IMHO, is how easy it is in your imagination to swap them in and out. So Craig holding Tracy's dead body? Laz in the shower comforting Vespa? Laz on the roof holding Vespa? Laz on the train exchanging banter with Vespa? A desperate Craig accepting help from Tracy on the ice rink? etc etc. They both had roles that dealt with love, vulnerability and death. All of the swaps work IMHO

    its the first time I have really thought about it in this way. Interesting stuff.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,785
    Craig over-emoting after Vesper's death?
    I just thought he was catching his breath after being underwater 5 minutes.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    edited December 2017 Posts: 45,489
    patb wrote: »
    Laz in the shower comforting Vespa? Laz on the roof holding Vespa? Laz on the train exchanging banter with Vespa?

    Sounds far out.
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  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,197
    The great thing about Tracy's death scene is that it is a sad scene without any drama and action before and after it. It is effective on its own and does not need to be emphasized by any additional drama.

    What I probably like most about CR is that it has some unexpected charater developments (at least for those who haven't read the novel). Something which we have not seen in Bond 22-24.
  • Posts: 19,339
    Craig over-emoting after Vesper's death?
    I just thought he was catching his breath after being underwater 5 minutes.

    That's how I see it...it's pretty obvious that's what it is.
  • Posts: 19,339
    Birdleson wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Craig over-emoting after Vesper's death?
    I just thought he was catching his breath after being underwater 5 minutes.

    That's how I see it...it's pretty obvious that's what it is.

    It's obvious that it is a combination of the physical strain and emotional turmoil he's undergoing. Craig does a fine job in that scene.

    Definitely...he is devasted and bloody knackered.

  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,253
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Craig over-emoting after Vesper's death?
    I just thought he was catching his breath after being underwater 5 minutes.

    That's how I see it...it's pretty obvious that's what it is.

    It's obvious that it is a combination of the physical strain and emotional turmoil he's undergoing. Craig does a fine job in that scene.

    Definitely...he is devasted and bloody knackered.

    That's the long and the short of it ;-)
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    edited December 2017 Posts: 7,114
    CR is overrated in general. I agree the best Bond film of the last 20 years, but once the comparisons start with the original films like Live And Let Die, Dr No and OHMSS - no way.

    Of course it is, back in the day people thought it was the best Bond ever, some still do, because it was miles better than its predecessor. SF is another example of such mass praise.

    CR, admittedly, has some of the best scenes in the franchise. In fact, the entire part from the train meeting until Le Chiffre's demise is pure Bond. Unsurprisingly that's the part they took from Fleming.

    What comes before that, is a rather unnecessary, but in those days very fanciful, origin story and what follows is an equally unnecessary over-the-top climax that pisses all over Fleming's subtle, heart-breaking ending.

    In the upper half of Bond films? Sure, can't argue with that.
    Best Bond ever? Not in a million years is it close to FRWL or OHMSS, to name the obvious ones.
  • Yeah my main problem with CR is how bloated it is. The Miami stuff could have been trimmed down imo and I don't think the whole origin story angle was necessary at all either. There was also no need for the sinking house imo. The finale was Le Chiffre dying, all it needed after that was a quiet little epilogue like in the book.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited December 2017 Posts: 23,883
    Yeah my main problem with CR is how bloated it is. The Miami stuff could have been trimmed down imo and I don't think the whole origin story angle was necessary at all either. There was also no need for the sinking house imo. The finale was Le Chiffre dying, all it needed after that was a quiet little epilogue like in the book.
    I don't have a problem with Miami because it, along with the crane sequence, serve to establish Craig as a younger, more energetic Bond.

    The entire section post Le Chiffre's death does absolutely nothing for me however, as I noted earlier, is one of the main reasons I don't view the film often and why it has been declining slowly down my rankings with time (the other reason is due to the asinine interconnectivity introduced during SP). It has a distinctly tacked on feeling.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,395
    Yeah my main problem with CR is how bloated it is. The Miami stuff could have been trimmed down imo and I don't think the whole origin story angle was necessary at all either. There was also no need for the sinking house imo. The finale was Le Chiffre dying, all it needed after that was a quiet little epilogue like in the book.

    Yes! OHMSS had the balls to end on a sombre note, no car chase and explosions needed. Casino Royale bottles it in this regard. They didn't have the strength of their convictions to follow through the story to it's end. It's similar to how LTK ends on a happy note after all the heartache and anguish.
  • MinionMinion Don't Hassle the Bond
    edited December 2017 Posts: 1,165
    I feel like FRWL gets a free pass for its unnecessary bloat. The needless boat chase and NORTH BY NORTHWEST tribute at the end totally take the wind out from its sails in the same way those criticized moments in Casino Royale supposedly do.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,395
    Minion wrote: »
    I feel like FRWL gets a free pass for its unnecessary bloat. The needless boat chase and NORTH BY NORTHWEST tribute at the end totally take the wind out from its sails in the same way those criticized moments in Casino Royale supposedly do.

    I completely agree. Another case where we are too afraid to call a spade a spade.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Manual digging implement ? Surely.
  • Posts: 19,339
    Or as Alan Partridge once said :
    "maybe we should call it a big tool"
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Minion wrote: »
    I feel like FRWL gets a free pass for its unnecessary bloat. The needless boat chase and NORTH BY NORTHWEST tribute at the end totally take the wind out from its sails in the same way those criticized moments in Casino Royale supposedly do.
    No doubt there is some filler towards the end in FRWL. It's unfortunate imho. However, I don't find it as lengthy or as troubling as in CR. What comes before is just too good to impact my overall perception of the film, and that's why it remains my firm #1 Bond entry. To be honest, the lengthy shootout which interrupts the gypsy catfight is the part I dislike the most in the film.

    DN is more cohesive and tightly written, but FRWL has more highs to go with its lows, and that's why I prefer it.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,114
    Also FRWL never turns into a farce either. The stick to the same tone as the rest of the film.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,395
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Also FRWL never turns into a farce either. The stick to the same tone as the rest of the film.

    I wouldn't say the exact tone. The bits where they push that guy off the boat and throw away the tape at the end are a bit more breezy than the first hour and a half.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,395
    Birdleson wrote: »
    CR is one of the few films that I have no real problems with.

    I feel that way about OHMSS and DR NO.
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,423
    I, for one, love the boat chase in FRWL. After a really claustrophobic film, it opens out with two good action scenes. (Maybe trimming Morzeny and his men deaths in the fireball, but other than that, FRWL is near on perfect)
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,395
    It's the two action scenes together that hurt it. One or the other would be fine.
  • Posts: 15,115
    I have no problem with what happens after the fight with Grant. Feels like a mini Odyssey and it makes sense that SPECTRE would do anything to retrieve the Lektor.
  • Posts: 17,753
    The boat chase and the North By Northwest tribute never bothered me, really. Neither are necessary, but the sequences are far from lengthy.

    Compared to sequences from several other Bond films, these two are not much to be annoyed by.
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,423
    Preace it brother!
  • Posts: 11,189
    Birdleson wrote: »
    CR is one of the few films that I have no real problems with. At worst it does drag a bit between the torture scene and Bond catching onto the betrayal, and the sinking building was unnecessary BS. But a great Bond film. Even the deservedly revered FRWL could do without the boat chase.

    I think the film is pretty much perfect - up to and including the torture scene.

    After that the cracks start to show more. We get a soppy romance, awkward dialogue and an unnecessary action scene. Craig and Greene somehow hold it together...just...though.

    Mostly however its a great film.
  • Posts: 12,466
    All of it works for me. CR is the most perfect Bond film we will ever get, because a truly 100% perfect Bond film can't exist. For all purposes though, CR is as great as it could be.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    CR is one of the few films that I have no real problems with. At worst it does drag a bit between the torture scene and Bond catching onto the betrayal, and the sinking building was unnecessary BS. But a great Bond film. Even the deservedly revered FRWL could do without the boat chase.

    I think the film is pretty much perfect - up to and including the torture scene.

    After that the cracks start to show more. We get a soppy romance, awkward dialogue and an unnecessary action scene. Craig and Greene somehow hold it together...just...though.

    Mostly however its a great film.
    Agree with everything you said.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,785
    I think Act III of CASINO ROYALE serves Bond very well. Incredibly, the film improves on my favorite Bond novel first with the torture (end of Act II) and then with Vesper's death.

    With the former, Bond doesn't just try to hold on as long as he can on the chance the cavalry will rescue him--he manipulates his torturer into losing control of the situation. His survival via Mr. White (aligning back with the novel) is much less important. Bond wins. Very smart by the filmmakers.

    No less, there is Bond being confronted firsthand with Vesper's death. Communicating the content of the Fleming story wouldn't work here: he comes to her dead body, reads her suicide letter and becomes enraged. That wouldn't work on screen. Instead, what played out was a suicide for the ages: a character reaching the end of a road of cruel manipulation, and making a selfless sacrifice. Better he experiences the outright betrayal. Gives chase. Engages in battle. Resolves absolutely to save her and fails completely. A hard lesson for what he cannot have since joining the Service.

    With the dialog between Bond and Vesper, it strikes me as disarming humor and heartfelt. It's what carries people through anxious moments, in the best of ways. That's my experience, anyway.
  • Posts: 16,154
    royale65 wrote: »
    I, for one, love the boat chase in FRWL. After a really claustrophobic film, it opens out with two good action scenes. (Maybe trimming Morzeny and his men deaths in the fireball, but other than that, FRWL is near on perfect)

    I do as well. I like the two action sequences that follow the train section. They're not overlong and don't wear out their welcome.
    I love every frame of FRWL (even the waving goodbye).
  • Posts: 12,466
    CR, OHMSS, and FRWL are good picks for the Top 3 (the consensus favorites of the site). The first two are my own Top 2.
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