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Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    All the foreigners who work for British intelligence in their own countries are traitors.

    Not so much a controversial opinion as just plain wrong:

    Quarrel, Kerim, Felix, Pinder & Paula, Tiger & Aki all loyal and that's just in the first five films.

    Strutter - ambiguous; is he in on luring Felix away from the table?, Hip - so incompetent he might as well be working for the opposition but then we have Sheikh Hoessein, Franco & Manuela, Luigi, Vijay & Saddrudhin, Mr Aubergine & Chuck Lee, Rosika Milklos & Green 4, Mathis.

    I'm struggling to think of even one.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    I'm actually struggling to think of a foreigner who works for British Intelligence. Weren't most of them working for the local agency and just liaising with MI6?
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,223
    bondjames wrote: »
    I'm actually struggling to think of a foreigner who works for British Intelligence. Weren't most of them working for the local agency and just liaising with MI6?

    Good question. Silva is the oddest one: he's full fledge MI6 station agent yet he is Spanish. From Gibraltar maybe?
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    edited February 2018 Posts: 45,489
    And Kamran Shah? A traitor. Raul as well.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited February 2018 Posts: 23,883
    Ludovico wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I'm actually struggling to think of a foreigner who works for British Intelligence. Weren't most of them working for the local agency and just liaising with MI6?

    Good question. Silva is the oddest one: he's full fledge MI6 station agent yet he is Spanish. From Gibraltar maybe?
    Silva wasn't a traitor originally though. I thought he was betrayed by M and then faked his death to pursue a life of crime.
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    And Kamran Shah?
    Wasn't he a member of the Mujahadeen? I don't remember him working for MI6 directly.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    bondjames wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I'm actually struggling to think of a foreigner who works for British Intelligence. Weren't most of them working for the local agency and just liaising with MI6?

    Good question. Silva is the oddest one: he's full fledge MI6 station agent yet he is Spanish. From Gibraltar maybe?
    Silva wasn't a traitor originally though. I thought he was betrayed by M and then faked his death to pursue a life of crime.
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    And Kamran Shah?
    Wasn't he a member of the Mujahadeen? I don't remember him working for MI6 directly.

    But he worked with them, to overthrow the legally elected government. The very definition of a traitor.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I'm actually struggling to think of a foreigner who works for British Intelligence. Weren't most of them working for the local agency and just liaising with MI6?

    Good question. Silva is the oddest one: he's full fledge MI6 station agent yet he is Spanish. From Gibraltar maybe?
    Silva wasn't a traitor originally though. I thought he was betrayed by M and then faked his death to pursue a life of crime.
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    And Kamran Shah?
    Wasn't he a member of the Mujahadeen? I don't remember him working for MI6 directly.

    But he worked with them, to overthrow the legally elected government. The very definition of a traitor.
    Oh, I see what you mean now. Yes, that's true about Shah, but wasn't Silva supposedly betrayed by M? He wasn't MI6 when he started his life of crime, unless one believes the retro-rubbish that he was Spectre all along.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,078
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »

    But he worked with them, to overthrow the legally elected government. The very definition of a traitor.

    Wait a second...at the time of TLD, I don't think the mujahedeen fought a legally elected government, but a Communist puppet regime installed by the Soviets. Now I'm cynical enough to say that I wish the Communists had won at the time, because it might have saved us a lot of trouble with the Islamists, but nevertheless I don't think the people who fought them giving the cirumstances were traitors to their country. No, not at all.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »

    But he worked with them, to overthrow the legally elected government. The very definition of a traitor.

    Wait a second...at the time of TLD, I don't think the mujahedeen fought a legally elected government, but a Communist puppet regime installed by the Soviets. Now I'm cynical enough to say that I wish the Communists had won at the time, because it might have saved us a lot of trouble with the Islamists, but nevertheless I don't think the people who fought them giving the cirumstances were traitors to their country. No, not at all.

    That is how western propaganda spun it, and still does. The fact is the communist party won a free election, and abolished sharia and gave women equal rights. This was too much for the Mujihadeen and other groups, who started armed rebellion. After a while, the Afghan government asked the Soviets for help. So they were there legally, just as in Syria recently.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited February 2018 Posts: 9,117
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    All the foreigners who work for British intelligence in their own countries are traitors.

    Silva, whether he be Spanish or South American, worked for MI6 in Hong Kong so he is not a traitor to whatever Spanish speaking country he came from.

    Can one say Kamran Shah 'worked' for MI6? That surely implies payment when all he did was assist Bond in his objective against a common enemy.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    edited February 2018 Posts: 45,489
    I already adressed that question. And the Moo-jihadeen were supported with money and weapons from the Brits and Americans. Same as the jihadeens in Syria.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    I already adressed that question. And the Moo-jihadeen were supported with money and weapons from the Brits and Americans.

    I wouldn't class the West supplying them with weapons as 'working' for us. We were supporting them because it worked for us for the Soviets to give as much grief as possible. But they were fighting for their own cause and couldn't really give the slightest toss about our larger struggle against Communism. Were mujahideen troops under direct control from the west?

    And even if what you say constitutes 'working' it would be the CIA pulling the strings not pathetic little Blighty and MI6.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Working for the CIA is also treason.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    Working for the CIA is also treason.

    Perhaps you want to reconsider your original statement?
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    All the foreigners who work for British intelligence in their own countries are traitors.

    The CIA isn't British intelligence and you have to go no further than DN and Quarrel for a foreigner working for MI6 who isn't a traitor to MI6, Jamaica or the Cayman Islands.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,908
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    And Kamran Shah? A traitor.
    One man's traitor is another man's free-dom fight-er. Fighting the Russians.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    TheWizardOfIce wrote: »
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    Working for the CIA is also treason.

    Perhaps you want to reconsider your original statement?
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    All the foreigners who work for British intelligence in their own countries are traitors.

    The CIA isn't British intelligence and you have to go no further than DN and Quarrel for a foreigner working for MI6 who isn't a traitor to MI6, Jamaica or the Cayman Islands.

    It was an apropos.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    RichardTheBruce wrote: »
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    And Kamran Shah? A traitor.
    One man's traitor is another man's free-dom fight-er. Fighting the Russians.
    Except they weren t fighting for freedom. Quite the opposite.
  • TracyTracy
    Posts: 1,713
    Murdock wrote: »
    Same here. I can't stand the gangsters.

    Are they not suitable *gangsta* enough for you :D
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,908
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    Except they weren t fighting for freedom. Quite the opposite.
    Freedom from the Russians. Brings people together.
  • TracyTracy
    Posts: 1,713
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    The tarantula scene still freaks me out every bloody time. Then again, spiders in general scare me to bits.

    Return of the King was another treat on that account.

    Its the smallest scorpions that are the most dangerous , like the yellow death stalker *shudder*
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    RichardTheBruce wrote: »
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    Except they weren t fighting for freedom. Quite the opposite.
    Freedom from the Russians. Brings people together.

    The longing for freedom to oppress others does that.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    edited February 2018 Posts: 7,203
    Speaking of allies, always really liked Luigi in FYEO.
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,223
    bondjames wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I'm actually struggling to think of a foreigner who works for British Intelligence. Weren't most of them working for the local agency and just liaising with MI6?

    Good question. Silva is the oddest one: he's full fledge MI6 station agent yet he is Spanish. From Gibraltar maybe?
    Silva wasn't a traitor originally though. I thought he was betrayed by M and then faked his death to pursue a life of crime.
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    And Kamran Shah?
    Wasn't he a member of the Mujahadeen? I don't remember him working for MI6 directly.

    Silva was not betrayed by M but punished for insubordination.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Ludovico wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I'm actually struggling to think of a foreigner who works for British Intelligence. Weren't most of them working for the local agency and just liaising with MI6?

    Good question. Silva is the oddest one: he's full fledge MI6 station agent yet he is Spanish. From Gibraltar maybe?
    Silva wasn't a traitor originally though. I thought he was betrayed by M and then faked his death to pursue a life of crime.
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    And Kamran Shah?
    Wasn't he a member of the Mujahadeen? I don't remember him working for MI6 directly.

    Silva was not betrayed by M but punished for insubordination.
    I believe M sacrificed Rodriguez in exchange for six prisoners held by the Communist Chinese government to enable and facilitate a smooth Hong Kong transition.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,331
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    And Kamran Shah? A traitor. Raul as well.

    Raul doesn't work for MI6. He's asked for help ('I'd never ask you to betray your country'). Then, after consulting his superiors, Bond is given help. Thus by the Cuban government.
  • TorgeirtrapTorgeirtrap
    Posts: 17,814
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Speaking of allies, always really liked Luigi in FYEO.

    Me too! Such fashionable sunglasses!
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited February 2018 Posts: 6,363
    CommanderRoss wrote: »
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    And Kamran Shah? A traitor. Raul as well.

    Raul doesn't work for MI6. He's asked for help ('I'd never ask you to betray your country'). Then, after consulting his superiors, Bond is given help. Thus by the Cuban government.

    Huh? I realize the writing is not strong, but Raoul is a sleeper. He calls himself that.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleeper_agent
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,448
    Daniel Craig performance is the worst interpretation of the James Bond character. It's the only one which takes the character of James Bond for granted, and seems like there is really nothing to him outside the drama he is currently embroiled in. The best Bonds, actually all the Bonds besides Craig sell you on the character first, before getting to the inner workings of why the character is the way he is. Bond should be someone that you at least want to spend time in the company of, if not want to be him. Connery Moore Lazenby Peirce and Timothy all had an individual charm, wit, warmth or something engaging about them that drew you in. I can imagine them as Bond having a life and personality outside of the job. With Craig, you're supposed to route for him because he's James Bond and that's it. They take the character for granted, and never make any attempt to endear him to the audience. I care less about him than any of the others, and ironically we are asked to care more. I don't need to know Bond is human to care, I need to know he is a person, and this is the first time a Bond actor hasn't delivered that. This Bond may have the emotions of a human, but he doesn't have a personality to match, and that is why Craig is the worst Bond for me.
  • barryt007barryt007
    Posts: 19,339
    He certainly has gone down a bit compared to before,for me.
    SP is the main cause for this,it made me hate the character for the way he spoke to M,his general swagger and invincibility,and just his behaviour throughout the whole film.

    A horrible character and Bond should NOT be like that,he should have Connery's movement,Lazenby's toughness,Moore's charm and wit,Dalton's intensity and Brosnan's good looks.

  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,448
    barryt007 wrote: »
    He certainly has gone down a bit compared to before,for me.
    SP is the main cause for this,it made me hate the character for the way he spoke to M,his general swagger and invincibility,and just his behaviour throughout the whole film.

    A horrible character and Bond should NOT be like that,he should have Connery's movement,Lazenby's toughness,Moore's charm and wit,Dalton's intensity and Brosnan's good looks.

    Yes, it has become clearer and clearer since CR how limited Craig is in the role. Moore did better with the dramatic parts of FYEO and OP than Craig did with the humour in SP.
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