Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • Posts: 908
    002 wrote:
    To elaborate:

    Craig's bond looks nothing like the description of Ian Fleming's Bond or any of the other bonds ( well in honesty with the exception of Dalton and perhaps Brosnan in appearence wise especially with the comma hair and perhaps Connery though without the scottish accent)

    * Bond isnt blue eyed or blonde
    * Bond under any circumstances DRINKS Heinkien Beer or any other beers (in the novels he will only drink beer if its offered to him by a highly respectable charater and the beer has to be an exotic imported beer- Craigs bond is guilty of drinking Heinkien Beer (though in all fairness- even Tanner was drinking Henikein ON THE JOB!!!)

    * Bond smokes cigarettes- Connery, Brosnan (in Die Another day) and Dalton (LTK)

    Are you for real, man? He doesn't look like Fleming's description, he drinks a beer because the producers needed product placement, and he doesn't smoke again because of a production decision? Forget that his portrayal has all the personality and character of Fleming's? It's insignificant physical things that make him not at all like Fleming, and it doesn't matter at all how Craig portrays him?

    I have a few rebuttal points of my own as well.

    He proved to be the ultimate kiss ass when it came to playing Bond. "Anything you say boss, to hell with me putting my own stamp on the role or fighting hard for that, the paycheck and opportunities for other films are what counts, I'm an A lister now baby!".
    .

    So where exactly does he differ from ANY OTHER Bond Actor before? The New direction of the Bond Movies wasn't Craigs idea,after all. No it was the Producers reaction on the ridiculing and disbelief after DAD and the success of the Bourne Movie especially! And anyhow, it is not,that Craig (or any other Actor,for that matter) is at Liberty to decide what kind of style and story he stars in, after signing their contract. Oh, and another thing: Brosnans take on Bond inTWINE is arguably way more flemingesque than ANYTHING Craig has shown us so far (well apart from the Bathroom Killing in CR and the Airplane Lounge in QoS), not to mention the intelligent,logical coherent and original Story ( something Mr. Craig not seems to insist a lot,obviously )!



  • Posts: 11,189
    I like to defend Brosnan but I'm not going to pretend that he is a better actor than Craig or that he gave us more Fleming-esque stuff.

    I will say though that, appearance wise I feel Brosnan is closer to the description Fleming gives of Bond (I think Fleming, being the snob he was, would have labelled Craig as too "working class" - at least at first).
  • edited August 2013 Posts: 3,494
    @Matt_Helm- It's well known that Craig insisted on having a modicum of control as far as character content, hence my statement that you've quoted. As far as the the actual story content you make a good point and may well be correct about that, so let's just say that I believe that based on Craig's attitude he is satisfied enough that his movies are artistically going in the direction that he's comfortable with, save for the obviously uncomfortable situation he found himself in during the QOS production. Brosnan's comments show he was entirely too wishy washy in this respect and settled for ticking everyone else's original boxes, and not as well IMHO.

    In TWINE, the only thing I would call remotely reminiscent of Fleming is the scene where he first encounters Renard. That was one of the very few highlights in a overly melodramatic mess of a script that was compounded with tons of poor acting performances and an overmatched director. Kissing Elektra's corpse ruined their final confrontation. I'm with @Bain on this one, Craig evokes Fleming's Bond far more for me on a consistent basis.
  • Posts: 908
    BAIN123 wrote:
    I like to defend Brosnan but I'm not going to pretend that he is a better actor than Craig or that he gave us more Fleming-esque stuff.

    I will say though that, appearance wise I feel Brosnan is closer to the description Fleming gives of Bond (I think Fleming, being the snob he was, would have labelled Craig as too "working class" - at least at first).

    The Way Brosnans Bond behaves and acts to me is so much more Fleming, than Craigs take. Just look at Elektra and Severigne. Flemings Bond was a sucker for just about any bird with a broken wing that came his Way. So Broz Bond falling in Love with Elektra alone is sooo much more flemingesque than tastelessly joking along when Severigne gets executed. Fleming would have made it a point, that Bond is disgusted because that's how a Knight in a shiny armour would feel (let alone an english Gentleman ). I am not arguing,that Brosnan is a better Actor than Craig,although I have a hunch that he is quite overrated. Want to see good acting covering a wide range (and not only either looking pissed or grinning grimm) just watch about any of Connerys 70s movies. That's what I call versatility!
  • edited August 2013 Posts: 11,189
    It's well known that Craig insisted on having a modicum of control as far as character content, hence my statement that you've quoted. As far as the the actual story content you make a good point and may well be correct about that, so let's just say that I believe that based on Craig's attitude he is satisfied enough that his movies are artistically going in the direction that he's comfortable with, save for the obviously uncomfortable situation he found himself in during the QOS production. Brosnan's comments show he was entirely too wishy washy in this respect and settled for ticking everyone else's original boxes, and not as well IMHO.

    In TWINE, the only thing I would call remotely reminiscent of Fleming is the scene where he first encounters Renard. That was one of the very few highlights in a overly melodramatic mess of a script that was compounded with tons of poor acting performances and an overmatched director. Kissing Elektra's corpse ruined their final confrontation. I'm with @Bain on this one, Craig evokes Fleming's Bond far more for me on a consistent basis.

    He didn't kiss her corpse. All he does is lean over her and briefly touch her forhead.
  • @Bain- sorry, I confused Elektra with Paris. I honestly don't watch the film too often, but it's still too overly melodramatic for my liking considering I felt their whole romance was so poorly written and unconvincingly acted as to be unrecognizable as more than a shag gone horribly wrong. Plus at least with Paris there was a reason for the kiss as we knew he had feelings for her, part of why I feel he was at his best in TND. The whole fact that Bond would feel anything for Elektra after she tried to kill him just doesn't resonate with me as a Flemingesque moment.


  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    edited August 2013 Posts: 4,043
    I think large percentage of the series is an embarrassment to watch, YOLT, DAF, LALD, MR, OP, VTAK and all the Brosnan films are painful to watch.

    DN is for the most part boring and slow despite some of the most memorable moments of the series.

    GF is grossly overrated and FRWL is Connery's finest hour.

    GE is only as popular as it is due to that Nintendo game, it's a good reason why people of a certain age at the time of it's release love it so but don't really care for the rest of Pierce's era.

    I'd rather watch QOS than any of the Moore films save SWLM and that's only because it was my first Bond film at the cinema.


    I'm pretty much know this most likely makes me not much of a fan anymore, I did worship Bond from 77-89 but is mainly down to Craig appointment I get so enthused about new entries and it will depend on who gets the job next but if it is another Brosnan type I'll be signing off till someone with substance is back in the role.
  • Posts: 169
    To say Bond must smoke cigarettes in order to stay true to Fleming is about as sensible as saying he shouldn't drive any car built after 1964.
  • edited August 2013 Posts: 11,189
    @Bain- sorry, I confused Elektra with Paris. I honestly don't watch the film too often, but it's still too overly melodramatic for my liking considering I felt their whole romance was so poorly written and unconvincingly acted as to be unrecognizable as more than a shag gone horribly wrong. Plus at least with Paris there was a reason for the kiss as we knew he had feelings for her, part of why I feel he was at his best in TND. The whole fact that Bond would feel anything for Elektra after she tried to kill him just doesn't resonate with me as a Flemingesque moment.


    On a slightly different note you have not seen unconvincing acting until you have seen The Room. After watching it I can forgive any poorer performances in the Bond films :))


    Shardlake wrote:
    GE is only as popular as it is due to that Nintendo game, it's a good reason why people of a certain age at the time of it's release love it so but don't really care for the rest of Pierce's era.

    And because it was the first Bond film A LOT of people saw (including myself)
  • BAIN123 wrote:
    @Bain- sorry, I confused Elektra with Paris. I honestly don't watch the film too often, but it's still too overly melodramatic for my liking considering I felt their whole romance was so poorly written and unconvincingly acted as to be unrecognizable as more than a shag gone horribly wrong. Plus at least with Paris there was a reason for the kiss as we knew he had feelings for her, part of why I feel he was at his best in TND. The whole fact that Bond would feel anything for Elektra after she tried to kill him just doesn't resonate with me as a Flemingesque moment.


    On a slightly different note you have not seen unconvincing acting until you have seen The Room. After watching it I can forgive any poorer performances in the Bond films :))


    I'm compelled to state that I've just seen The Room, and it exceeded all expectations.

    On topic: The first two thirds of Diamonds are Forever are pretty good. Cec Linder isn't that bad a Felix.

  • Posts: 2,483
    Dr_Yes wrote:
    To say Bond must smoke cigarettes in order to stay true to Fleming is about as sensible as saying he shouldn't drive any car built after 1964.


    Eh. I wouldn't claim Bond must smoke to stay true to Fleming, but if you've read Fleming's oeuvre you know that Bond's smokes were very important to him and a not inconsiderable component to his identity. The cigarettes, the booze, the dames, the fine food and clothing, the gambling--they were all of a piece. Bond was essentially a bon vivant, and his cigarettes were a major part of his high living.
  • Posts: 686
    Dr_Yes wrote:
    To say Bond must smoke cigarettes in order to stay true to Fleming is about as sensible as saying he shouldn't drive any car built after 1964.


    Eh. I wouldn't claim Bond must smoke to stay true to Fleming, but if you've read Fleming's oeuvre you know that Bond's smokes were very important to him and a not inconsiderable component to his identity. The cigarettes, the booze, the dames, the fine food and clothing, the gambling--they were all of a piece. Bond was essentially a bon vivant, and his cigarettes were a major part of his high living.

    Right and it seems the rare occasions that Craig-Bond does engage in these activities he doesn't really seem to enjoy them. I guess having emotional baggage is the new Hollywood meme.
  • Posts: 169
    Dr_Yes wrote:
    To say Bond must smoke cigarettes in order to stay true to Fleming is about as sensible as saying he shouldn't drive any car built after 1964.


    Eh. I wouldn't claim Bond must smoke to stay true to Fleming, but if you've read Fleming's oeuvre you know that Bond's smokes were very important to him and a not inconsiderable component to his identity. The cigarettes, the booze, the dames, the fine food and clothing, the gambling--they were all of a piece. Bond was essentially a bon vivant, and his cigarettes were a major part of his high living.

    Your comment was more fair than mine.
  • Posts: 43
    Brosnan smoked a cigar in Die Another Day. I believe that was the only instance in which I can recall the Irishman smoking as Bond. Even in Tomorrow Never Dies he was seen to say to someone - "Filthy habit"..

    The Craig 'inappropriate as Bond' as been discussed to death by now, but you can appreciate any frustrations. Yes, there was the issue with hair color, even eyes, and the physique was something we hadn't quite seen before, but the initial furore died down eventually, as enough people recognized he's simply a very good Bond, but I was one of those who had initial skepticism about the actor, but we've all seen now after two or three releases, what he can bring to the screen as Flemings iconic character, so those (minor) inconsistencies we first saw, can eventually be overlooked
    Brosnan smoked a cigar in Die Another Day. I believe that was the only instance in which I can recall the Irishman smoking as Bond. Even in Tomorrow Never Dies he was seen to say to someone - "Filthy habit"..

    The Craig 'inappropriate as Bond' as been discussed to death by now, but you can appreciate any frustrations. Yes, there was the issue with hair color, even eyes, and the physique was something we hadn't quite seen before, but the initial furore died down eventually, as enough people recognized he's simply a very good Bond, but I was one of those who had initial skepticism about the actor, but we've all seen now after two or three releases, what he can bring to the screen as Flemings iconic character, so those (minor) inconsistencies we first saw, can eventually be overlooked
    Dr_Yes wrote:
    aspie wrote:
    Dr_Yes wrote:
    aspie wrote:
    Skyfall was basically a remake of TWINE and Brosnan performance was better than Craig's.

    The former is an unremarkable fact (many Bond films recycle elements from earlier installments) and the latter is an opinion I do not share.
    Well, the thread is for controversial opinions. Structure recycled many times but actual scenes being lifted from other films (MI 6 Building scene) is just too close and well - sloopy. The story basically substituted Badem character for Elektra's. Babs should have known better. SF uninspiring to say the least. Regards.

    You make a fair and reasonable point about the explosion itself at MI6, which was just a step away from the old low-budget film practice of using stock footage. Other than having it out for M personally, Silva's motive, methods, and goals beyond killing her were different enough from Elektra's that it didn't bother me. I don't mind at all if you disagree. I recently watched TWINE again for the first time in a long while & I liked it a lot and can see why there are ardent fans for Brosnan #3.

    Fair. Well said.
  • edited August 2013 Posts: 686
    I thought I might have been too harsh on Skyfall when I saw it at the cinema; I wasn't harsh enough. It is on EpixHD right now.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,959
    I remember how upset I was with SF when I saw it for the first time in theaters, but after four more viewings before it left, I found myself heavily enjoying it. I guess it took time to grow on me, because I was expecting something else, I suppose. Plus, as much as I didn't want to overhype it...c'mon. It was four years since we last saw Bond in action, I couldn't help but be more than overjoyed. But walking out, I just found myself incredibly disappointed and upset.
  • Posts: 686
    Creasy47 wrote:
    I remember how upset I was with SF when I saw it for the first time in theaters, but after four more viewings before it left, I found myself heavily enjoying it. I guess it took time to grow on me, because I was expecting something else, I suppose. Plus, as much as I didn't want to overhype it...c'mon. It was four years since we last saw Bond in action, I couldn't help but be more than overjoyed. But walking out, I just found myself incredibly disappointed and upset.

    When Bond was fighting Patrice in Shanghai, I did not know if I was watching Blade Runner or The Empire Strikes Back.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    edited August 2013 Posts: 16,351
    Perdogg wrote:
    When Bond was fighting Patrice in Shanghai, I did not know if I was watching Blade Runner or The Revenge of the Sith.

    Fixed. ;)

  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,959
    @Perdogg, when it came down to the fighting - though almost everyone will disagree with me - I really wanted some more brutal hand-to-hand fights, ala QoS. I really loved those.
  • Posts: 1,052
    Daniel Craig's "brilliance"as an actor is somewhat overstated.
  • Posts: 11,189
    Daniel Craig's "brilliance"as an actor is somewhat overstated.

    Watch his performance during M's death again!
  • MrBondMrBond Station S
    Posts: 2,044
    Dominic Greene and Elvis are two great villains!
  • Posts: 1,052
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Daniel Craig's "brilliance"as an actor is somewhat overstated.

    Watch his performance during M's death again!

    The scene didn't really do much for me. But then I was delighted to see her kick the bucket.

  • I've never quite got all the hype over From Russia with Love (the film). I prefer Dr. No.

    Same goes for Goldfinger, I find Thunderball much more enjoyable.
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,423
    BAIN123 wrote:
    I'm not 100% certain but I wonder if there's some merit to the claim that TWINE is Brosnan's best performance as Bond. True he overacts in a few scenes but I caught some of it the other day and noticed the following:

    - he looks his best here. Reasonably commanding and authoratitve.
    - he's a lot less smarmy than he is in TND and seems to act like a serious agent.
    - he's more comfortable than he was in GE

    For his hammy performance in some scenes there's others in which I think he's effective like the PTS, the first meeting with Electra at the building site of the pipeline, the casino, killing Davidov etc.

    Indeed. Apart from his overacting in the scenes between him and M in Scotland and the infamous bedroom scene, I think Brosnan does very well.
  • Posts: 11,189
    royale65 wrote:
    BAIN123 wrote:
    I'm not 100% certain but I wonder if there's some merit to the claim that TWINE is Brosnan's best performance as Bond. True he overacts in a few scenes but I caught some of it the other day and noticed the following:

    - he looks his best here. Reasonably commanding and authoratitve.
    - he's a lot less smarmy than he is in TND and seems to act like a serious agent.
    - he's more comfortable than he was in GE

    For his hammy performance in some scenes there's others in which I think he's effective like the PTS, the first meeting with Electra at the building site of the pipeline, the casino, killing Davidov etc.

    Indeed. Apart from his overacting in the scenes between him and M in Scotland and the infamous bedroom scene, I think Brosnan does very well.

    The early scenes? I didn't think he overacted in them. In fact I think those were his better scenes in the film.
  • Posts: 6,396
    I also think TWINE was by far and away Brosnan's best performance as Bond. There are one or two suspect moments which could be perceived as wooden or overacting, most notably when Bond and Elektra are cocooned in his inflatable jacket and he tells her to 'look in his eyes'. It all feels very forced.
  • Posts: 2,402
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Daniel Craig's "brilliance"as an actor is somewhat overstated.

    Watch his performance during M's death again!

    The scene didn't really do much for me. But then I was delighted to see her kick the bucket.

    I think we have a troll on our hands here. Watch Our Friends in the North and if you still think Craig is anything below fantastic as an actor, I question your taste.
  • Posts: 686
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Daniel Craig's "brilliance"as an actor is somewhat overstated.

    Watch his performance during M's death again!

    The scene didn't really do much for me. But then I was delighted to see her kick the bucket.

    I think we have a troll on our hands here. Watch Our Friends in the North and if you still think Craig is anything below fantastic as an actor, I question your taste.

    I am not sure why some one's opinion on M makes that individual a troll.

    I had trouble with Judi Dench playing M because unlike both Lee and Brown, and the Fleming-M, her credibility to send people to their deaths was never established until her final film. And even her history really did not say very much to that. One of the things that I found interesting about Skyfall and Mallory is that they have already made an attempt to establish his credibility prior to his future role as M. I am wondering if the writers found that to be a gap in Dench's role.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,264
    Perdogg wrote:
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Daniel Craig's "brilliance"as an actor is somewhat overstated.

    Watch his performance during M's death again!

    The scene didn't really do much for me. But then I was delighted to see her kick the bucket.

    I think we have a troll on our hands here. Watch Our Friends in the North and if you still think Craig is anything below fantastic as an actor, I question your taste.

    I am not sure why some one's opinion on M makes that individual a troll.

    I had trouble with Judi Dench playing M because unlike both Lee and Brown, and the Fleming-M, her credibility to send people to their deaths was never established until her final film. And even her history really did not say very much to that. One of the things that I found interesting about Skyfall and Mallory is that they have already made an attempt to establish his credibility prior to his future role as M. I am wondering if the writers found that to be a gap in Dench's role.

    In all probability, "yes".
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