Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • OK, here we go:

    SP could have been broken apart into 2 good movies. I don't mean a two-part arc, I mean two standalones.

    1) Remove the 'nine eyes' subplot and C character from SP and the film is tighter and more focused. The movie is just about Spectre and Blofeld and we have a bit more breathing room for locations, character development, and maybe even justifying or rethinking BrotherGate. Maybe even introduce Les Spectres du Sable to stretch out Mr.White's involvement.

    2) Create a separate movie about Nine Eyes and C. It's the ultimate "enemy within" plot. Tight, small-budget, and more thriller than actioner. You could start it in, say, South Africa with Bond being present for the Cape Town bombing alluded to in SP. He finds a few clues and follows some leads that take him back to London and C. The scooby gang help out and C's defeated.

    Together it's too much. Neither plot is totally bad, but both are underdeveloped in SP and make for a film that's both a bit bloated and a bit rushed.
  • Posts: 7,507
    octofinger wrote: »
    OK, here we go:

    SP could have been broken apart into 2 good movies. I don't mean a two-part arc, I mean two standalones.

    1) Remove the 'nine eyes' subplot and C character from SP and the film is tighter and more focused. The movie is just about Spectre and Blofeld and we have a bit more breathing room for locations, character development, and maybe even justifying or rethinking BrotherGate. Maybe even introduce Les Spectres du Sable to stretch out Mr.White's involvement.

    2) Create a separate movie about Nine Eyes and C. It's the ultimate "enemy within" plot. Tight, small-budget, and more thriller than actioner. You could start it in, say, South Africa with Bond being present for the Cape Town bombing alluded to in SP. He finds a few clues and follows some leads that take him back to London and C. The scooby gang help out and C's defeated.

    Together it's too much. Neither plot is totally bad, but both are underdeveloped in SP and make for a film that's both a bit bloated and a bit rushed.


    Good point. I agree.
  • I do as well. However the title sequence itself its a little bizzare. But it doesn't come close to Maurice Binders camera fettish sequence in LTK. That one is abysmal.

    The title sequence isn't anything to write home about, but I think it gets the job done. I also think "AWTD" does a good enough job of nailing the propulsion that is QoS. It's certainly one of the livelier Bond themes, and is unrepentantly loud.
  • Posts: 15,114
    octofinger wrote: »
    OK, here we go:

    SP could have been broken apart into 2 good movies. I don't mean a two-part arc, I mean two standalones.

    1) Remove the 'nine eyes' subplot and C character from SP and the film is tighter and more focused. The movie is just about Spectre and Blofeld and we have a bit more breathing room for locations, character development, and maybe even justifying or rethinking BrotherGate. Maybe even introduce Les Spectres du Sable to stretch out Mr.White's involvement.

    2) Create a separate movie about Nine Eyes and C. It's the ultimate "enemy within" plot. Tight, small-budget, and more thriller than actioner. You could start it in, say, South Africa with Bond being present for the Cape Town bombing alluded to in SP. He finds a few clues and follows some leads that take him back to London and C. The scooby gang help out and C's defeated.

    Together it's too much. Neither plot is totally bad, but both are underdeveloped in SP and make for a film that's both a bit bloated and a bit rushed.

    Interesting point. What would have been the scheme for SP1 though?
  • RemingtonRemington I'll do anything for a woman with a knife.
    Posts: 1,534
    octofinger wrote: »
    OK, here we go:

    SP could have been broken apart into 2 good movies. I don't mean a two-part arc, I mean two standalones.

    1) Remove the 'nine eyes' subplot and C character from SP and the film is tighter and more focused. The movie is just about Spectre and Blofeld and we have a bit more breathing room for locations, character development, and maybe even justifying or rethinking BrotherGate. Maybe even introduce Les Spectres du Sable to stretch out Mr.White's involvement.

    2) Create a separate movie about Nine Eyes and C. It's the ultimate "enemy within" plot. Tight, small-budget, and more thriller than actioner. You could start it in, say, South Africa with Bond being present for the Cape Town bombing alluded to in SP. He finds a few clues and follows some leads that take him back to London and C. The scooby gang help out and C's defeated.

    Together it's too much. Neither plot is totally bad, but both are underdeveloped in SP and make for a film that's both a bit bloated and a bit rushed.

    Sounds good.
  • Ludovico wrote: »
    octofinger wrote: »
    OK, here we go:

    SP could have been broken apart into 2 good movies. I don't mean a two-part arc, I mean two standalones.

    1) Remove the 'nine eyes' subplot and C character from SP and the film is tighter and more focused. The movie is just about Spectre and Blofeld and we have a bit more breathing room for locations, character development, and maybe even justifying or rethinking BrotherGate. Maybe even introduce Les Spectres du Sable to stretch out Mr.White's involvement.

    2) Create a separate movie about Nine Eyes and C. It's the ultimate "enemy within" plot. Tight, small-budget, and more thriller than actioner. You could start it in, say, South Africa with Bond being present for the Cape Town bombing alluded to in SP. He finds a few clues and follows some leads that take him back to London and C. The scooby gang help out and C's defeated.

    Together it's too much. Neither plot is totally bad, but both are underdeveloped in SP and make for a film that's both a bit bloated and a bit rushed.

    Interesting point. What would have been the scheme for SP1 though?

    Hmmm. As I think of it, I'm not sure you'd need some specific catalyst. I'd be happy enough if it started with Mexico and spectre there, through to the Rome meeting via a posthumous tip from M, and then onward - literally just snip out the C/nine-eyes parts and the remainder is still mostly coherent. Spectre remains as a group bent on some sort of surveillance scheme, though you might want to fine-tune that to give it more bite.

    You might need to re-jig some aspects of the final act - does the demolition of the old MI6 building still fit? Does the burning of agents and the retreat to the Hildebrand warehouse still make sense? Possibly not, but no great danger there - easy enough to fix. And again, I feel it's a net positive with the 15-20 minutes of running time that are freed up. Spend a few minutes on exposition for the new plot, and fully 5 or 10 more on fleshing out characters, and you'd have a better, richer movie that's still shorter than SP!

  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,583
    @octofinger

    I would end it at the crater base and leave part 2 open. Make the final act be there. There would be some fleshing out to do in that area, but I'd eliminate the London finale all together.
  • MaxCasino wrote: »
    I thought this was about the actual content of the movies, but it's just the click-baity race/sexual orientation of Bond topic.

  • Just as Moonraker is “too Star Wars”, FRWL is “too Hitchcock”.
  • Posts: 19,339
    Mack_Bolan wrote: »
    Just as Moonraker is “too Star Wars”, FRWL is “too Hitchcock”.

    Its the closest to Fleming's novels along with OHMSS,so its hardly Hitchockian.

  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,711
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Mack_Bolan wrote: »
    Just as Moonraker is “too Star Wars”, FRWL is “too Hitchcock”.

    Its the closest to Fleming's novels along with OHMSS,so its hardly Hitchockian.

    Well, an entire scene is lifted from North by Northwest.
  • JWPepperJWPepper You sit on it, but you can't take it with you.
    edited November 2018 Posts: 512
    Birdleson wrote: »
    A scene. Though there is a subtle Hitchcockian influence that does linger throughout the film, “too” Hitchcoxkian seems simplistic and an odd criticism.

    As for MR, believe me, few fans left the theatre as incensed and let down as me, yet I thought the space elements were among the parts that worked best in the film.

    Since when is "too Hitchcockian" a bad thing?? :-D
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,112
    JWPepper wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    A scene. Though there is a subtle Hitchcockian influence that does linger throughout the film, “too” Hitchcoxkian seems simplistic and an odd criticism.

    As for MR, believe me, few fans left the theatre as incensed and let down as me, yet I thought the space elements were among the parts that worked best in the film.

    Since when is "too Hitchcockian" a bad thing?? :-D

    Exactly.

    Without wanting to put that label on FRWL, with films such as The 39 Steps and North by Northwest Hitchcock has made some of the best spy films ever. If a spy franchise film is a bit too much like those films I don’t think that is bad thing. If anything, films such as Die Another Day and Spectre would have been a lot less frustrating.
  • Posts: 15,114
    octofinger wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    octofinger wrote: »
    OK, here we go:

    SP could have been broken apart into 2 good movies. I don't mean a two-part arc, I mean two standalones.

    1) Remove the 'nine eyes' subplot and C character from SP and the film is tighter and more focused. The movie is just about Spectre and Blofeld and we have a bit more breathing room for locations, character development, and maybe even justifying or rethinking BrotherGate. Maybe even introduce Les Spectres du Sable to stretch out Mr.White's involvement.

    2) Create a separate movie about Nine Eyes and C. It's the ultimate "enemy within" plot. Tight, small-budget, and more thriller than actioner. You could start it in, say, South Africa with Bond being present for the Cape Town bombing alluded to in SP. He finds a few clues and follows some leads that take him back to London and C. The scooby gang help out and C's defeated.

    Together it's too much. Neither plot is totally bad, but both are underdeveloped in SP and make for a film that's both a bit bloated and a bit rushed.

    Interesting point. What would have been the scheme for SP1 though?

    Hmmm. As I think of it, I'm not sure you'd need some specific catalyst. I'd be happy enough if it started with Mexico and spectre there, through to the Rome meeting via a posthumous tip from M, and then onward - literally just snip out the C/nine-eyes parts and the remainder is still mostly coherent. Spectre remains as a group bent on some sort of surveillance scheme, though you might want to fine-tune that to give it more bite.

    You might need to re-jig some aspects of the final act - does the demolition of the old MI6 building still fit? Does the burning of agents and the retreat to the Hildebrand warehouse still make sense? Possibly not, but no great danger there - easy enough to fix. And again, I feel it's a net positive with the 15-20 minutes of running time that are freed up. Spend a few minutes on exposition for the new plot, and fully 5 or 10 more on fleshing out characters, and you'd have a better, richer movie that's still shorter than SP!

    I still think the movie needs a scheme, or else you have a villain constantly on the defensive, which is not great to his aura of menace. Even in revenge stories like LTK and QOS they gave the villain something else to do than wait for Bond to show up. I guess in SP they could have just made the global terrorist attacks the main thing, although the aim would not be to implement Nine Eyes. Maybe SPECTRE would be doing it as mercenary work: some dictators and criminal political groups pay them a high price for organising and executing large scale terrorist attacks.
  • Posts: 15,114
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Mack_Bolan wrote: »
    Just as Moonraker is “too Star Wars”, FRWL is “too Hitchcock”.

    Its the closest to Fleming's novels along with OHMSS,so its hardly Hitchockian.

    Well, an entire scene is lifted from North by Northwest.

    And I'm fine with that. FRWL is Hitchcockian enough. In fact it's Hitchcockian like James Joyce's Ulysse is Homeresque. It's part of what makes it good.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2018 Posts: 23,883
    Mack_Bolan wrote: »
    Just as Moonraker is “too Star Wars”, FRWL is “too Hitchcock”.
    I'd say FRWL is influenced by Hitchcock, and is perhaps the film most reminiscent of Hitchcock. That's a great thing imho, and the reason why it's my #1 Bond film. I like MR too btw, despite similarities to SW.

    I don't disagree with you, but it's not a problem for me.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,779
    Mack_Bolan wrote: »
    Just as Moonraker is “too Star Wars”, FRWL is “too Hitchcock”.
    What is this, the Controversial opinions on Bond Films discussion? (You are validated, @Mack_Bolan.)
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,711
    Birdleson wrote: »
    A scene. Though there is a subtle Hitchcockian influence that does linger throughout the film, “too” Hitchcoxkian seems simplistic and an odd criticism.
    Ludovico wrote: »

    And I'm fine with that. FRWL is Hitchcockian enough. In fact it's Hitchcockian like James Joyce's Ulysse is Homeresque. It's part of what makes it good.

    Not sure how I was misunderstood here: I responded to a weird claim of FRWL being "hardly Hitchcockian" by referring to the most blatant example of the film borrowing from Hitchcock. Don't really need it explained to me!

  • Ludovico wrote: »
    octofinger wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    octofinger wrote: »
    OK, here we go:

    SP could have been broken apart into 2 good movies. I don't mean a two-part arc, I mean two standalones.

    1) Remove the 'nine eyes' subplot and C character from SP and the film is tighter and more focused. The movie is just about Spectre and Blofeld and we have a bit more breathing room for locations, character development, and maybe even justifying or rethinking BrotherGate. Maybe even introduce Les Spectres du Sable to stretch out Mr.White's involvement.

    2) Create a separate movie about Nine Eyes and C. It's the ultimate "enemy within" plot. Tight, small-budget, and more thriller than actioner. You could start it in, say, South Africa with Bond being present for the Cape Town bombing alluded to in SP. He finds a few clues and follows some leads that take him back to London and C. The scooby gang help out and C's defeated.

    Together it's too much. Neither plot is totally bad, but both are underdeveloped in SP and make for a film that's both a bit bloated and a bit rushed.

    Interesting point. What would have been the scheme for SP1 though?

    Hmmm. As I think of it, I'm not sure you'd need some specific catalyst. I'd be happy enough if it started with Mexico and spectre there, through to the Rome meeting via a posthumous tip from M, and then onward - literally just snip out the C/nine-eyes parts and the remainder is still mostly coherent. Spectre remains as a group bent on some sort of surveillance scheme, though you might want to fine-tune that to give it more bite.

    You might need to re-jig some aspects of the final act - does the demolition of the old MI6 building still fit? Does the burning of agents and the retreat to the Hildebrand warehouse still make sense? Possibly not, but no great danger there - easy enough to fix. And again, I feel it's a net positive with the 15-20 minutes of running time that are freed up. Spend a few minutes on exposition for the new plot, and fully 5 or 10 more on fleshing out characters, and you'd have a better, richer movie that's still shorter than SP!

    I still think the movie needs a scheme, or else you have a villain constantly on the defensive, which is not great to his aura of menace. Even in revenge stories like LTK and QOS they gave the villain something else to do than wait for Bond to show up. I guess in SP they could have just made the global terrorist attacks the main thing, although the aim would not be to implement Nine Eyes. Maybe SPECTRE would be doing it as mercenary work: some dictators and criminal political groups pay them a high price for organising and executing large scale terrorist attacks.

    Sure. Or, just snip out Spectre as the organization. Fundamentally Blofeld's reach and actions in SP weren't really different from Silva's in SF. So why not give Waltz's character a different name and make him the guy who's trying to take over Quantum in a palace coup? The young upstart who's more savage than the measured, careful old guard like Mr. White? Then you've got some more dynamics there to play with.

    Argh... every time we do this I feel like we come up with about 10 movies on the back of a napkin that would be more interesting than the one we actually got!
  • Posts: 15,114
    @ProfJoeButcher I was just saying regarding the FRWL controversy that I find it fine as it is, I was not specifically criticising your comment.

    @octofinger I do like SP, but it has its share of flaws.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,711
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I do like SP, but it has its share of flaws.

    I said this before somewhere, but Spectre is an odd duck in that while I absolutely love it, I agree with about 90% of the criticism of the film.
  • Ludovico wrote: »
    I do like SP, but it has its share of flaws.

    I said this before somewhere, but Spectre is an odd duck in that while I absolutely love it, I agree with about 90% of the criticism of the film.

    Hear hear. I actually like it, and think certain aspects will age fairly well. I'd offer that it's probably the best looking Bond film, on screen.

    My main complaint is probably about wasted potential. Given the talent and the budgets involved, the rights to Spectre finally secured, and etc., it could have been better. A lot better.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,711
    I agree totally. The good-lookingness of the film goes a long way with me, but it could and should have been so much better.

    I gotta learn to avoid trailers....!
  • Posts: 4,619
    "Ladies First" by the great ERIC SERRA is the single greatest Bond track of all time. Yes, it's better than the James Bond Theme. There, I said it.

  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    ...Then, we have a problem.
  • Posts: 1,917
    "Ladies First" by the great ERIC SERRA is the single greatest Bond track of all time. Yes, it's better than the James Bond Theme. There, I said it.

    Today's Thankgiving day in the U.S. April Fool's isn't for another 5 months.
  • edited November 2018 Posts: 678
    PanchitoPistoles must be joking, but on a serious (controversial) note, I think I've said it before but GE score is one of my favorites.

    On another (related) note, if Reznor and Ross do the score for B25 like someone hinted in the production thread, we're getting a similarly experimental score and I would be so here for it. I'm sure they'll be able to work with the established sounds of Bond while also offering something unique. Despite the hate it gets Serra's score still has very Bondian tracks.
  • Posts: 1,917
    Serra's score has gotten more respect over recent years. While the Internet was in its infancy back when GE came out, I still recall how the score was the big complaint among what was otherwise a great reception for GE. People just weren't ready for that level of experimentation at the time.

    But now since we've been through the bland factory of Newman's scores, it sounds that much better.

    But in a universe where John Barry music exists nothing Serra did on GE comes close.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    BT3366 wrote: »
    "Ladies First" by the great ERIC SERRA is the single greatest Bond track of all time. Yes, it's better than the James Bond Theme. There, I said it.

    Today's Thankgiving day in the U.S. April Fool's isn't for another 5 months.
    Pretty much.
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