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Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,395
    peter wrote: »
    Mendes4Lyfe wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Why wouldn't she be confrontational? If she disapproves if his job and thinks he's a glorified hitman disguised as a civil servant, some arrogant jerk who is from Eton or whatever. That's how she sees Bond. It is in character that she is confrontational. As for Bond, instead of being swept away Vesper talks him down and challenges him professionally. I think he thus sees her as a challenge and an unusual woman.

    Well shes certainly unusual, but not in a way thats endearing. Not for me anyway. And I don't see how she challenges him professionally. Shes an accountant. Her charade on the train strikes me as "I'm important too, you need to take me seriously OKAY?" I can't understand how Bond doesn't see through this, or why he is the least bit challenged. I also don't remember Vesper in the book being this boisterious.

    But he does see through it; calls her out on her exterior to hide who she is (by wearing slightly masculine clothes)...

    Then what is it he is so taken by?
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,395
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Sometimes these Bond broads just rub you the wrong way.

    Yeah, I think thats what I have with Vesper. Its why I can't get invested in the romance like others do.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Mendes4Lyfe wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Sometimes these Bond broads just rub you the wrong way.

    Yeah, I think thats what I have with Vesper. Its why I can't get invested in the romance like others do.
    Truth be told, the beach romance bores the crap out of me (one step up from the tripe in Attack of the Clones). However, Green is easy on the eyes, and this is a fundamental prerequisite for me. I can forgive a lot if there's physical appeal. The rest of the film isn't too shabby either. For me, CR is like a bell curve. It peaks high in that middle casino section which is full of tension and suspense.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,395
    bondjames wrote: »
    Mendes4Lyfe wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Sometimes these Bond broads just rub you the wrong way.

    Yeah, I think thats what I have with Vesper. Its why I can't get invested in the romance like others do.
    Truth be told, the beach romance bores the crap out of me (one step up from the tripe in Attack of the Clones). However, Green is easy on the eyes, and this is a fundamental prerequisite for me. I can forgive a lot if there's physical appeal. The rest of the film isn't too shabby either. For me, CR is like a bell curve. It peaks high in that middle casino section which is full of tension and suspense.

    Yeah, that middle forty minutes is excellent., no question.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,112
    The middle section is a blast, but the beginning and the ending are, well, not Bondian enough for me.

    Though I like Vesper. I consider Eva Green to be a brilliant actress and she always shines in whatever film she might appear. Vesper is the one that makes the film here, she acts Bond out of the water.

    Actually, I get why Bond falls for her but I can’t understand why a smart woman like her would fall for such an arrogant brute. If Bond would have been written like the gentleman spy of the original timeline, I’m sure my feelings would be different entirely.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,996
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    The middle section is a blast, but the beginning and the ending are, well, not Bondian enough for me.

    Though I like Vesper. I consider Eva Green to be a brilliant actress and she always shines in whatever film she might appear. Vesper is the one that makes the film here, she acts Bond out of the water.

    Actually, I get why Bond falls for her but I can’t understand why a smart woman like her would fall for such an arrogant brute. If Bond would have been written like the gentleman spy of the original timeline, I’m sure my feelings would be different entirely.

    Bond was hardly an 'ignorant brute' when he sat next to her in the shower. It showed empthy and care, as he knew being that close to violence he was used to, would be severely traumatic for her.

    Perhaps that won her over...?
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited January 2019 Posts: 23,883
    LeonardPine wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    The middle section is a blast, but the beginning and the ending are, well, not Bondian enough for me.

    Though I like Vesper. I consider Eva Green to be a brilliant actress and she always shines in whatever film she might appear. Vesper is the one that makes the film here, she acts Bond out of the water.

    Actually, I get why Bond falls for her but I can’t understand why a smart woman like her would fall for such an arrogant brute. If Bond would have been written like the gentleman spy of the original timeline, I’m sure my feelings would be different entirely.

    Bond was hardly an 'ignorant brute' when he sat next to her in the shower. It showed empthy and care, as he knew being that close to violence he was used to, would be severely traumatic for her.

    Perhaps that won her over...?
    Nah, I think it was his perfectly formed
    arse.
    ;) She noticed it immediately, even though he was seated.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,288
    LeonardPine wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    The middle section is a blast, but the beginning and the ending are, well, not Bondian enough for me.

    Though I like Vesper. I consider Eva Green to be a brilliant actress and she always shines in whatever film she might appear. Vesper is the one that makes the film here, she acts Bond out of the water.

    Actually, I get why Bond falls for her but I can’t understand why a smart woman like her would fall for such an arrogant brute. If Bond would have been written like the gentleman spy of the original timeline, I’m sure my feelings would be different entirely.

    Bond was hardly an 'ignorant brute' when he sat next to her in the shower. It showed empthy and care, as he knew being that close to violence he was used to, would be severely traumatic for her.

    Perhaps that won her over...?

    The buildup to and the stairwell fight, followed by the shower scene, shows how Vesper and Bond are very different, yet perfect for each other. Sometimes actors just have that chemistry with each other and it leaps off the screen.

    Hell, Connery had it with Jill St. John, and she's hardly a great actress.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited January 2019 Posts: 23,883
    echo wrote: »
    LeonardPine wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    The middle section is a blast, but the beginning and the ending are, well, not Bondian enough for me.

    Though I like Vesper. I consider Eva Green to be a brilliant actress and she always shines in whatever film she might appear. Vesper is the one that makes the film here, she acts Bond out of the water.

    Actually, I get why Bond falls for her but I can’t understand why a smart woman like her would fall for such an arrogant brute. If Bond would have been written like the gentleman spy of the original timeline, I’m sure my feelings would be different entirely.

    Bond was hardly an 'ignorant brute' when he sat next to her in the shower. It showed empthy and care, as he knew being that close to violence he was used to, would be severely traumatic for her.

    Perhaps that won her over...?

    The buildup to and the stairwell fight, followed by the shower scene, shows how Vesper and Bond are very different, yet perfect for each other. Sometimes actors just have that chemistry with each other and it leaps off the screen.

    Hell, Connery had it with Jill St. John, and she's hardly a great actress.
    That entire vulnerability after confrontation sequence had been done previously with The Bourne Identity: Marie in Bourne's apartment. I remember recalling that upon first viewing in the theatre, but accepting it, because it was far better than what we got in TWINE (touching computer screens, scared under an avalanche and what not). In the Bourne film, it segues into a sex scene after some intimacy with a hair cut.

    I agree on the Craig/Green chemistry. She's a scene chewer and the fact that he held his own with her sold his Bond to me in the film.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,619
    Here's a new one: Tomorrow Never Dies would have been better with the deleted scenes, namely with Carver's background. Also, Sir Anthony Hopkins should have played him.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    edited January 2019 Posts: 9,509
    Ugh just caught up with some of the comments with the Vesper bashing/Bond-beach-romance disses.

    Too bad for you guys.

    I've always felt their romance was handled with adult gloves, from the script, to the actors, the music and the scenery.

    Sometimes I wonder if some on this site ever had a truly romantic relationship with someone? One that goes beyond skin-deep infatuation (although I also wonder if some of the readers ever had anyone reciprocate their infatuations? That would explain a lot of the pseudo-macho talk some revert to while discussing Vesper, or the other bond girls).

    Whatever the case may be-- different strokes, I guess. As for me-- love everything about Vesper and Bond.
  • RemingtonRemington I'll do anything for a woman with a knife.
    Posts: 1,534
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    Here's a new one: Tomorrow Never Dies would have been better with the deleted scenes, namely with Carver's background. Also, Sir Anthony Hopkins should have played him.

    I enjoy Pryce as Carver but Hopkins would have been fantastic. Agreed on the deleted scenes, mainly Carver's background, Gupta's cards, and the jaguar gag.
  • BT3366BT3366
    Posts: 1,917
    Mendes4Lyfe wrote: »
    Like how a certain member feels about Kara, I feel the same way about Vesper. Not the character but how she is portrayed by Eva Green. For me she isn't beguiling but instead just irritating. As an example, who uses the phrase "aimless wanderings"? With tracey I believed that Bond had met his match. With Vesper all I see is someone out of their depth and without any self-awareness. Why is she so confrontational on the train, opposite someone who has been trained in how to kill? It doesn't make any sense. Why does Bond get swept along, like hes actually going along with her self-delusion. When he watches her walk away and does that smile smirk and head tilt, why is he thinking "what a woman!" It annoys the heck out of me. Even rookie Bond isn't that easily manipulated.

    As others have said above, the stairwell fight and shower bonded (excuse the term) them, and given he was a man who wasn't open to anything other than a casual relationship, the events of his first big assignment he wasn't as prepared for as he thought allowed Bond to lower his guard as needed someone for the first time and Vesper sharing in it was what set him on the path.

    What has always bothered me is veteran Bond being easily manipulated by Elektra in TWINE, one of countless reasons that is my least favorite 007 film. I kept screaming in my mind "You're James f'ing Bond, why are you being so blind to this woman's manipulations?
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited January 2019 Posts: 23,883
    BT3366 wrote: »
    Mendes4Lyfe wrote: »
    Like how a certain member feels about Kara, I feel the same way about Vesper. Not the character but how she is portrayed by Eva Green. For me she isn't beguiling but instead just irritating. As an example, who uses the phrase "aimless wanderings"? With tracey I believed that Bond had met his match. With Vesper all I see is someone out of their depth and without any self-awareness. Why is she so confrontational on the train, opposite someone who has been trained in how to kill? It doesn't make any sense. Why does Bond get swept along, like hes actually going along with her self-delusion. When he watches her walk away and does that smile smirk and head tilt, why is he thinking "what a woman!" It annoys the heck out of me. Even rookie Bond isn't that easily manipulated.

    As others have said above, the stairwell fight and shower bonded (excuse the term) them, and given he was a man who wasn't open to anything other than a casual relationship, the events of his first big assignment he wasn't as prepared for as he thought allowed Bond to lower his guard as needed someone for the first time and Vesper sharing in it was what set him on the path.

    What has always bothered me is veteran Bond being easily manipulated by Elektra in TWINE, one of countless reasons that is my least favorite 007 film. I kept screaming in my mind "You're James f'ing Bond, why are you being so blind to this woman's manipulations?
    I agree on the romance in TWINE. It never really clicked for me for the same reasons. I can understand Bond sympathizing with her plight as a captive and feeling some guilt for King's death, but the way it was presented didn't work for me. It came across as naivete.

    The only film with a strong romantic angle which continues to work perfectly for me on an ongoing basis on rewatches due to manner in which it's handled and presented is OHMSS. I like how the beach, hotel and Draco birthday instances are used to establish things, then the Armstrong montage is used to briefly but clearly demonstrate the courting stage and finally the closer comes in Switzerland after the chase in the barn. Bond is vulnerable there and she helps him. It's well written and well acted.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    Lest we forget, however, that OHMSS was the genius product of none other than the man himself. The man who started it all.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited January 2019 Posts: 23,883
    Agreed, and it's brought to screen beautifully with minimal embellishment. That's why it works. The subtlety of how the romance is delivered onscreen is impressive. It's woven seamlessly into the narrative in an integrated fashion.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,288
    As was CR.
  • jobojobo
    Posts: 7,507
    peter wrote: »
    Ugh just caught up with some of the comments with the Vesper bashing/Bond-beach-romance disses.

    Too bad for you guys.

    I've always felt their romance was handled with adult gloves, from the script, to the actors, the music and the scenery.

    Sometimes I wonder if some on this site ever had a truly romantic relationship with someone? One that goes beyond skin-deep infatuation (although I also wonder if some of the readers ever had anyone reciprocate their infatuations? That would explain a lot of the pseudo-macho talk some revert to while discussing Vesper, or the other bond girls).

    Whatever the case may be-- different strokes, I guess. As for me-- love everything about Vesper and Bond.


    It seems to be a common theme with many topics on this site, be it Bond related, cultural discussions or even political topics: Members pretending to be macho strongmen.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,112
    Although I like Vesper, Tracy and Kara are the two romances that really clicked for me. Unsurprisingly my two favourite films.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    Never had a problem with Vesper. She was beautifully crafted, many thanks to Eva Green in every aspect, and Martin Campbell's direction.

    Madeleine Swann on the other hand... Now that's a completely different story...
  • RoadphillRoadphill United Kingdom
    Posts: 984
    I rather liked the romance between Bond and XXX in TSWLM too, it was subtle, but they seemed to have a stronger 'bond' than in most of the films. At least until she questions him about her dead lover.
  • jobojobo
    Posts: 7,507
    Roadphill wrote: »
    I rather liked the romance between Bond and XXX in TSWLM too, it was subtle, but they seemed to have a stronger 'bond' than in most of the films. At least until she questions him about her dead lover.


    A classic case of Bond and a clueless damsel. And one even completely lacking in charisma at that... not my cup of tea...
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    jobo wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    Ugh just caught up with some of the comments with the Vesper bashing/Bond-beach-romance disses.

    Too bad for you guys.

    I've always felt their romance was handled with adult gloves, from the script, to the actors, the music and the scenery.

    Sometimes I wonder if some on this site ever had a truly romantic relationship with someone? One that goes beyond skin-deep infatuation (although I also wonder if some of the readers ever had anyone reciprocate their infatuations? That would explain a lot of the pseudo-macho talk some revert to while discussing Vesper, or the other bond girls).

    Whatever the case may be-- different strokes, I guess. As for me-- love everything about Vesper and Bond.


    It seems to be a common theme with many topics on this site, be it Bond related, cultural discussions or even political topics: Members pretending to be macho strongmen.

    Nail on head...
    jobo wrote: »
    Roadphill wrote: »
    I rather liked the romance between Bond and XXX in TSWLM too, it was subtle, but they seemed to have a stronger 'bond' than in most of the films. At least until she questions him about her dead lover.


    A classic case of Bond and a clueless damsel. And one even completely lacking in charisma at that... not my cup of tea...

    Again: nail on head, lol.
  • barryt007barryt007
    Posts: 19,339
    XXX has the personality of this :

    plank.jpg

    Along with Tanner :

    FJHKEM0HG85C7F5.LARGE.jpg
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    There goes my morning coffee @barryt007 : out my nose and onto my macbook.
  • barryt007barryt007
    Posts: 19,339
    peter wrote: »
    There goes my morning coffee @barryt007 : out my nose and onto my macbook.

    Apologies old pal he he ;)
  • jobojobo
    Posts: 7,507
    barryt007 wrote: »
    XXX has the personality of this :

    plank.jpg

    Along with Tanner :

    FJHKEM0HG85C7F5.LARGE.jpg


    Yes. And it would have been more usefull for Bond to drag that plank around than XXX in the film... ;)
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    Glad I'm not the one who feels that way about Barbara Bach. ;)
  • barryt007barryt007
    Posts: 19,339
    ClarkDevlin wrote: »
    Glad I'm not the one who feels that way about Barbara Bach. ;)

    Well,unlike Tanner,she does have compensations :

    Sequin-bra-wood-floor.jpg
  • jobojobo
    edited January 2019 Posts: 7,507
    Btw: Why is it that Bach seems to be always overlooked when examples of bad actresses in Bond are being listed? Ekland, Richards, Roberts, Hatcher and even Berry are commonly mentioned as the horror examples of terrible Bond girl performances (and rightly so...). But why is Bach given a pass? Honestly, I would be so blunt to claim that if you put any of those names mentioned in the role of Triple X, the result would have been better! They might have been bad and annoying in their roles, but at least they were occationaly capable of reading a line with a minimum level of confidence, and at least attempt some minor acting. Bach is incapable of that through out the entire film!

    Are people actually being fooled by the script writers' minor attempt to give the character some superficioul importance? Are people just aware that it's a nonsensical fantasy story to begin with, so they don't care? Or are they so blinded by nostalgia towards Spy that they cannot come around to see it's obvious flaws?

    Well, Triple X is an obvious candidate for the worst Bond girl in my book. The character is completely useless! Remove her from the plot and it would make absolutely no difference (well, Bond wouldn't have to risk his life to save her at the end of the film...). The attempt, however serious it was, to make her seem like a competent agent is an hilarious joke! To make matters worse she has absolutely no charm or charisma either.
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