Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    cwl007 wrote: »
    I find it very watchable precisely because of the points you make. They are not criticisms of it for me. At the time it was released I'll admit I felt very underwhelmed walking out of the cinema. But now it is just another Bond in a large, eclectic and varied back catalogue I enjoy it for what it is. Which is short, well paced and tough.
    For me the beauty of Bond is, again because we are 24 (5) films in is that there is something to suit all tastes and moods. Sometimes I'm in a Quantum mood. When I am I really like it.

    I get that. I was just offering a reason for why it may have been deemed a ‘failure’, as you put, for some.
  • SeanCraigSeanCraig Germany
    Posts: 732
    I don‘t know it was really labelled as a failure - at least I never really heard that besides reading this forum. It was not received as well as CR - mostly because the editing was criticized (I share that being too drastic) and compared to LeChiffre Dominique Greene lost out.

    I actually love the movie - I think the water plot was a good idea and I like the character of Camille a lot. It just does not work without CR though - at least to me besides other Bond movies it really needs this other film to properly enjoy it.

    But from what is read even here it‘s gained a lot of reputation ... at least I get that impression.

    So - I dunno if it‘s that controversial anymore but I truly love this Bond movie even I hated the editing for a long time because I felt betrayed of many great action scenes and locations I could not follow as fast as it was edited.
  • Posts: 7,507
    SeanCraig wrote: »
    I don‘t know it was really labelled as a failure - at least I never really heard that besides reading this forum. It was not received as well as CR - mostly because the editing was criticized (I share that being too drastic) and compared to LeChiffre Dominique Greene lost out.

    I actually love the movie - I think the water plot was a good idea and I like the character of Camille a lot. It just does not work without CR though - at least to me besides other Bond movies it really needs this other film to properly enjoy it.

    But from what is read even here it‘s gained a lot of reputation ... at least I get that impression.

    So - I dunno if it‘s that controversial anymore but I truly love this Bond movie even I hated the editing for a long time because I felt betrayed of many great action scenes and locations I could not follow as fast as it was edited.


    The reviews were pretty savage at the time. The critics loathed it.
  • Posts: 54
    I never warmed to QoS. For me, the big stumbling block was that I wanted the story to be a much more direct “Bond dealing with Vesper” tale rather than veering off into all of the water plot and revenge business with Green, Camille, General Medrano, and so on. It feels too disconnected from the more personal journey that I wanted Bond to go on (which we still get flashes of).

    I think it starts and ends wonderfully - it’s the connective tissue in between that doesn’t interest me, especially as a follow up to CR.
  • Geno wrote: »
    I never warmed to QoS. For me, the big stumbling block was that I wanted the story to be a much more direct “Bond dealing with Vesper” tale rather than veering off into all of the water plot and revenge business with Green, Camille, General Medrano, and so on. It feels too disconnected from the more personal journey that I wanted Bond to go on (which we still get flashes of).

    I think it starts and ends wonderfully - it’s the connective tissue in between that doesn’t interest me, especially as a follow up to CR.

    That was sort of my issue as well. Well, unlike you I wasn't particularly bothered about Bond grieving for Vesper (I wouldn't have minded a film focused on that but I was pretty content with how CR left things there to be honest), but I just wish they'd decided what the film was actually about. It's a really messy film imo, which is especially shocking because of how short it is. It tries to do so much in between its poorly edited chase scenes that none of it really works for me. And I'd find that a lot easier to deal with if some of the usual comforts were there but no, it actually shuns the tropes even more than CR did (but then we do also get the weird GF homage for some reason?). So not only did they fail at achieving the far too many goals they set for themselves, they also failed to give me at least the base level of enjoyment that I get from watching any other Bond film just because it's Bond. It'll probably always be my least favourite. Thank god for Sam Mendes.
  • Posts: 54
    I just wish they'd decided what the film was actually about. It's a really messy film imo, which is especially shocking because of how short it is. It tries to do so much in between its poorly edited chase scenes that none of it really works for me.

    Agreed, and that’s a good observation: for all the kudos it gets for being lean, it feels like it’s trying to balance too many spinning plates in its quest to be about something.

    Also, in the spirit of this thread, I’ll give QoS this: I like Another Way to Die. It’s not a masterpiece, but the song has more swagger and character than the movie.

  • Geno wrote: »
    I just wish they'd decided what the film was actually about. It's a really messy film imo, which is especially shocking because of how short it is. It tries to do so much in between its poorly edited chase scenes that none of it really works for me.

    Agreed, and that’s a good observation: for all the kudos it gets for being lean, it feels like it’s trying to balance too many spinning plates in its quest to be about something.

    Also, in the spirit of this thread, I’ll give QoS this: I like Another Way to Die. It’s not a masterpiece, but the song has more swagger and character than the movie.

    I don't hate it as a song, but I'm not a fan of it as a Bond song. I know Jack White usually goes for thrashy and barebones but his songs usually flow well. AWTD doesn't for me, it's sort of choppy and disjointed, and because of that they don't have a melody to weave through the film's score.

    I've read that they had to rush it because Amy Winehouse couldn't do it, so maybe that explains it. I wouldn't mind him getting another attempt because I'm sure he could do better on his own and with more time.
  • w2bondw2bond is indeed a very rare breed
    Posts: 2,252
    Birdleson wrote: »
    w2bond wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    BondStu wrote: »
    OK, here's another controversial opinion - I actually think "Quantum Of Solace" is pretty good.

    Not controversial; about half of us on here love it (Top Ten for me).

    Uncommon but not controversial. I assume you're exaggerating but QoS does get more love on these forums than elsewhere

    I'm not. Recent discussion, surveys, etc. puts it at about fifty/fifty on here. With many ranking it quite high (far higher than my 9th spot). Just read this page; all positive, no negative, in response to @BondStu 's post.

    Not quite 50/50 but it's certainly more loved based on rankings
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  • SeanCraigSeanCraig Germany
    Posts: 732
    Agree with @Birdleson - I am certain it gained even more popularity since the last poll. Maybe (that‘s a big maybe) this also had to do with SP or that movie‘s reception. I know it has it‘s fans (which is so great about the Bond film series in general - there‘s something to find for everyone) but at least for me what it mainly did was letting me appreciate Craig‘s first 3 movies even more. Maybe others felt the same way.
  • RemingtonRemington I'll do anything for a woman with a knife.
    Posts: 1,534
    SeanCraig wrote: »
    Agree with @Birdleson - I am certain it gained even more popularity since the last poll. Maybe (that‘s a big maybe) this also had to do with SP or that movie‘s reception. I know it has it‘s fans (which is so great about the Bond film series in general - there‘s something to find for everyone) but at least for me what it mainly did was letting me appreciate Craig‘s first 3 movies even more. Maybe others felt the same way.

    It definitely made me appreciate them more.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    Posts: 4,343
    SeanCraig wrote: »
    Agree with @Birdleson - I am certain it gained even more popularity since the last poll. Maybe (that‘s a big maybe) this also had to do with SP or that movie‘s reception. I know it has it‘s fans (which is so great about the Bond film series in general - there‘s something to find for everyone) but at least for me what it mainly did was letting me appreciate Craig‘s first 3 movies even more. Maybe others felt the same way.

    Agreed... and since NTTD looks like a direct follow up, there's a chance it will let me love SP even more. For example, I really hope Swann character will be expanded.
  • w2bondw2bond is indeed a very rare breed
    Posts: 2,252
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Thanks, @w2bond , and I’ve the feeling that completely fresh stats would even be more kind.
    @Birdleson I use each members most recent ranking (since 2015) so it reflects recent opinions as much as possible. However some members lists date back to 2015 or 2016. I decided not to do it yearly due to small sample size; rather I have a new list with each new movie.

    It will be interesting to see the rankings in 2020
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    edited September 2019 Posts: 13,916
    For the Craig Bond film releases, I've generally observed very vocal reactions/a rhythm of loved it, hated it, loved it, hated it.

    Very unscientific. But the pattern suggests that for NO TIME TO DIE the general reaction will be to love it. And separately strong reactions against films like QUANTUM OF SOLACE and now SPECTRE soften over time.
  • Posts: 1,926
    jobo wrote: »
    SeanCraig wrote: »
    I don‘t know it was really labelled as a failure - at least I never really heard that besides reading this forum. It was not received as well as CR - mostly because the editing was criticized (I share that being too drastic) and compared to LeChiffre Dominique Greene lost out.

    I actually love the movie - I think the water plot was a good idea and I like the character of Camille a lot. It just does not work without CR though - at least to me besides other Bond movies it really needs this other film to properly enjoy it.

    But from what is read even here it‘s gained a lot of reputation ... at least I get that impression.

    So - I dunno if it‘s that controversial anymore but I truly love this Bond movie even I hated the editing for a long time because I felt betrayed of many great action scenes and locations I could not follow as fast as it was edited.


    The reviews were pretty savage at the time. The critics loathed it.

    I didn't recall the critics savaging QoS and decided to check Rotten Tomatoes and that confirmed it is rated overall fresh by their standards at 65 percent. And scanning some of the reviews of many of the critics who didn't rate it fresh did give it 2.5 stars out of 4 or a C rating at worst; some were disappointed, but hardly loathing.
  • I think Denise Richards was a Bond girl in the wrong era.

    She would have been well cast opposite Roger Moore, with more tongue-in-cheek material than the serious, “I’m a nuclear scientist” character in The World is Not Enough.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    Posts: 4,343
    At least she's one of the hottest...
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    edited September 2019 Posts: 7,207
    The more I think of it, the more I feel like QOS could turn out to be my preferred Craig entry so far. CR has a good story but I never liked the Bond Begins angle at the start, and SF and SP have a self-indulgence about them that feels very misplaced in a Bond film. QOS seems to strike the right notes.
  • Posts: 19,339
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    The more I think of it, the more I feel like QOS could turn out to be my preferred Craig entry so far. CR has a good story but I never liked the Bond Begins angle at the start, and SF and SP have a self-indulgence about them that feels very misplaced in a Bond film. QOS seems to strike the right notes.

    Dominic Greene is a very underrated villain to me as well.
  • SeanCraigSeanCraig Germany
    Posts: 732
    Agree on Dominic Greene to be underrated - I always liked his „piano lessons“ story and his whole behavior at the fundraiser party was creepy and shows flashes of him being a true maniac (like we see in the last chapter). Same thing with his look when he leaves Felix and Beam at the plane ...
  • Posts: 7,537
    SeanCraig wrote: »
    Agree on Dominic Greene to be underrated - I always liked his „piano lessons“ story and his whole behavior at the fundraiser party was creepy and shows flashes of him being a true maniac (like we see in the last chapter). Same thing with his look when he leaves Felix and Beam at the plane ...

    I love that moment....nearly as good as the look he gives Bond when he and his goons meet Bond at the bottom of the stairs, just before the gunfight!
  • I think he’s a pretty good villain, nowhere near as useless as he is sometimes made out to be. He has much more personality than many of them. I like his bitter comment about Bond to Camille at the fundraiser (“everything he touches seems to wither and die”) and the fight at the end is great, he’s really screaming with the effort of trying to kill Bond, that’s brilliant.

    When he first appears on screen he’s stamping things onto a roll of paper, does anyone know what that was about? An odd way to introduce the main villain.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,331
    I think Denise Richards was a Bond girl in the wrong era.

    She would have been well cast opposite Roger Moore, with more tongue-in-cheek material than the serious, “I’m a nuclear scientist” character in The World is Not Enough.

    If you ask me it's pure sexism that people can't accept one of the hottest women of the era to be a nuclear scientist. I don't like the 'glimmer' line though.
  • Posts: 17,819
    I think Denise Richards was perfectly alright in TWINE.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,207
    I think Denise Richards was perfectly alright in TWINE.

    Me too.
  • Posts: 16,222
    Count me in as a Denise Richards/Christmas Jones fan.
  • RemingtonRemington I'll do anything for a woman with a knife.
    Posts: 1,534
    She wasn't too terrible. Not great by any means but I'll take her anyday over Goodnight, Stacey, or Madeline.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,511
    re: Christmas: Not a lot happening behind those eyes. Turn. Off.

    Connery's women and Craig's women are sharp, intelligent, and, in most cases, very sensual and sumptuous. These are women I could fall in love with. Add in the best, Tracy/Vesper... these are Bond girls/women who drive the narrative, are naturally on par with Bond (without being Bond's "equal" (so cheesy)), they enrich the story, and are sexual (without being bimbos). Perfect...



  • MinionMinion Don't Hassle the Bond
    edited September 2019 Posts: 1,165
    My only complaint about Christmas is she feels unimportant to the story. Yes, she serves a purpose, but you could easily write around her presence. I wouldn't be surprised if she was a late addition because of the Elektra twist and they couldn't imagine a Bond film without a Bond Girl.

    Just another way SF feels like an uncompromising reattempt at TWINE.
  • Posts: 7,507
    I think the notion that Connery's Bond girls were all intelligent or "sharp", and in a different league to girls of the late eras, is at best exaggerated. Lets be honest. Girls like the Mastersons, Domino, Kissy (etc) are mainly eye candy. They are really not that different to some of the later "damsels" that are usually criticized as some of the serie's weakest.
  • Posts: 19,339
    I think he’s a pretty good villain, nowhere near as useless as he is sometimes made out to be. He has much more personality than many of them. I like his bitter comment about Bond to Camille at the fundraiser (“everything he touches seems to wither and die”) and the fight at the end is great, he’s really screaming with the effort of trying to kill Bond, that’s brilliant.

    When he first appears on screen he’s stamping things onto a roll of paper, does anyone know what that was about? An odd way to introduce the main villain.

    I must admit i'm not 100% on that myself. :/
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