Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,266
    jobo wrote: »
    Agent_47 wrote: »
    Brosnan in DAD is the guy I wish we got from the very start. In GE and TND he always seemed a little too restrained, like there was a conscious effort to come off very cool and smooth but it always felt artificial to me. By DAD he seemed to have dropped that by just being naturally cool. There's also more of an edge to him, a take no prisoners approach added. I think that was due to his growth as an actor. No coincidence, I think he really grew up as an actor as evident in his post-Bond films like THE MADATOR and THE GHOST WRITER. It's kind of a shame he hasn't been getting more prolific parts, ending up in rental stuff like I.T.

    Funny enough, I remember Lee Tamahori (in the BTS featurette) claiming he didn't feel the need to really direct Pierce because he knew Bond by this point.

    Considering the rest of the film it probably saved Brosnans' performance....


    Another shout out to the awesomeness of the LALD novel, and then a truly controversial opinion:

    People find Denise Richards unbelievable because of sexism. They think a nuclear phisisist just can't be that hot, but in fact a good student should be able to finish university at 22-23. She might be working on her PhD at the site..

    No, the problem is not that she looks hot, the problem is that she is completely out of her depth acting the part. A good looking physicist would be believable if she was able to convey some conviction in her lines and general presence. She doesn't.

    I'm more inclined to follow @Birdleson's suggestion it's the horrid writing of her role that makes it impossible. I agree that many lines are cringeworthy and only prove P&W are the worst dialogue writers in history. 'Or are you here just for a glimmer?'. She's absolutely not the best actress in the world, but she certainly has had some meorable roles (starship troopers, wild things).

    As a 19 y/o at the time though, I was happy she was in the film... ;-)
  • Agent_47Agent_47 Canada
    Posts: 330
    TWINE is my favourite Bond film, so this thread is a ton of fun.

    I'm going to dogpile like everyone else, **** TWINE!
  • Agent_47Agent_47 Canada
    Posts: 330
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Agent_47 wrote: »
    TWINE is my favourite Bond film, so this thread is a ton of fun.

    I'm going to dogpile like everyone else, **** TWINE!

    There is a TWINE appreciation thread that would probably be a better fit.

    Possibly, but I get a kick out of the kicking that TWINE gets on these forums daily.

    Plus, I'm not averse to reading the criticism and negativity towards it. I may disagree and find the negativity to be overblown and overstated but I still respect others opinions enough to acknowledge them.
  • Agent_47Agent_47 Canada
    edited February 2020 Posts: 330
    Birdleson wrote: »
    It’s the “Controversial” thread. The understanding is that the opinions are unpopular.

    Would hardly call them unpopular, but I am not arguing against those posting negativity towards TWINE. Everyone is entitled to say whatever they want on these forums, just making light of it and how overstated it can be.
  • OctopussyOctopussy Piz Gloria, Schilthorn, Switzerland.
    Posts: 1,081
    I think David Arnold is overrated. Now that's a controversial opinion.
  • Agent_47Agent_47 Canada
    Posts: 330
    Octopussy wrote: »
    I think David Arnold is overrated. Now that's a controversial opinion.

    I really like David's work on the Bond films, but he is no John Barry, I don't think any of the composers have been able to match him.
  • edited February 2020 Posts: 7,507
    Octopussy wrote: »
    I think David Arnold is overrated. Now that's a controversial opinion.

    I agree. I have seen Bond fans be almost enraged that Zimmer is doing the new score and not Arnold. I mean... come on! Arnold has done a decent job on some Bond films, but he is not such a guru. Other qualified composers deserve a go at it, especially someone like Zimmer.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    Octopussy wrote: »
    I think David Arnold is overrated. Now that's a controversial opinion.

    Funny thing is that during 1997-2008 this wouldn’t have been a controversial opinion! It’s only now so because we have a whole new generation of fans that grew up with the Arnold scores and developed a strong affinity for them, so there are now much more vocal Arnold enthusiasts than there used to be back in the day.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    edited February 2020 Posts: 7,134
    I'd say Arnold's scores have been solid overall, though only QOS and TND stick out as some of the better ones.
    Usually, I like his scores until we get to the climax, then he gets all chaotic and extremely noisy to the point cues like Submarine, Antonov and Fall of a House in Venice lose all sense of melody.
  • OctopussyOctopussy Piz Gloria, Schilthorn, Switzerland.
    Posts: 1,081
    Octopussy wrote: »
    I think David Arnold is overrated. Now that's a controversial opinion.

    Funny thing is that during 1997-2008 this wouldn’t have been a controversial opinion! It’s only now so because we have a whole new generation of fans that grew up with the Arnold scores and developed a strong affinity for them, so there are now much more vocal Arnold enthusiasts than there used to be back in the day.

    Casino Royale is David Arnold's greatest contribution to the franchise, IMO. The reason being that they clearly wanted to keep the use of the Bond theme to the end of the film. I find that he overuses the theme in most of his scores. The Bond theme loses it's novelty if it's overused, IMO. I much prefer Erica Serra's Goldeneye score to anything Arnold has produced.
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    I'd say Arnold's scores have been solid overall, though only QOS and TND stick out as some of the better ones.
    Usually, I like his scores until we get to the climax, then he gets all chaotic and extremely noisy to the point cues like Submarine, Antonov and Fall of a House in Venice lose all sense of melody.

    +1

    Perfectly summed up.
  • Agent_47Agent_47 Canada
    Posts: 330
    I will be nice to get a different flavour with N
    Octopussy wrote: »
    Octopussy wrote: »
    I think David Arnold is overrated. Now that's a controversial opinion.

    Funny thing is that during 1997-2008 this wouldn’t have been a controversial opinion! It’s only now so because we have a whole new generation of fans that grew up with the Arnold scores and developed a strong affinity for them, so there are now much more vocal Arnold enthusiasts than there used to be back in the day.

    Casino Royale is David Arnold's greatest contribution to the franchise, IMO. The reason being that they clearly wanted to keep the use of the Bond theme to the end of the film. I find that he overuses the theme in most of his scores. The Bond theme loses it's novelty if it's overused, IMO. I much prefer Erica Serra's Goldeneye score to anything Arnold has produced.
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    I'd say Arnold's scores have been solid overall, though only QOS and TND stick out as some of the better ones.
    Usually, I like his scores until we get to the climax, then he gets all chaotic and extremely noisy to the point cues like Submarine, Antonov and Fall of a House in Venice lose all sense of melody.

    +1

    Perfectly summed up.

    The Goldeneye score is underrated, nice to see some appreciation for it. Diversity can be a good thing.

    How do you feel about Michael Kamen's score for LTK? I'm a big fan.
  • OctopussyOctopussy Piz Gloria, Schilthorn, Switzerland.
    Posts: 1,081
    Agent_47 wrote: »
    I will be nice to get a different flavour with N
    Octopussy wrote: »
    Octopussy wrote: »
    I think David Arnold is overrated. Now that's a controversial opinion.

    Funny thing is that during 1997-2008 this wouldn’t have been a controversial opinion! It’s only now so because we have a whole new generation of fans that grew up with the Arnold scores and developed a strong affinity for them, so there are now much more vocal Arnold enthusiasts than there used to be back in the day.

    Casino Royale is David Arnold's greatest contribution to the franchise, IMO. The reason being that they clearly wanted to keep the use of the Bond theme to the end of the film. I find that he overuses the theme in most of his scores. The Bond theme loses it's novelty if it's overused, IMO. I much prefer Erica Serra's Goldeneye score to anything Arnold has produced.
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    I'd say Arnold's scores have been solid overall, though only QOS and TND stick out as some of the better ones.
    Usually, I like his scores until we get to the climax, then he gets all chaotic and extremely noisy to the point cues like Submarine, Antonov and Fall of a House in Venice lose all sense of melody.

    +1

    Perfectly summed up.

    The Goldeneye score is underrated, nice to see some appreciation for it. Diversity can be a good thing.

    How do you feel about Michael Kamen's score for LTK? I'm a big fan.

    Never had a problem with it. I think the Gunbarrel in Licence To Kill is one of the best in the series and that comes down solely to Kamen's score.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,134
    Agreed on both LTK and GE, two of the strongest non-Barry scores I'd say. They both contribute to the particular atmosphere of these films. Kamen goes Latin American in his sound and Serra's use of post-industrial soundscapes perfectly fits the Russian motive of GE. That's what good composers ought to do imo.
    Barry was an expert in creating a distinctively different sound for each of his scores, Arnold got that right in QOS but not quite during the entirety of his other Bond films. Mind you, not bad or anything, just not very distinctive.
  • Posts: 1,917
    I thought Arnold's TND score was great back in '97-98 thinking finally a suitable Barry replacement. I always collected the soundtracks as they came out, but went after it with enthusiasm and it worked as both a film soundtrack and listening experience. I still like it best of his 5.

    TWINE (yes, I'm piling on as it's appropriate) was the start of a series of soundtracks with less distinctive and more generic beats which continues to this day with especially people like Newman. CR and QoS had their moments - Parts of African Rundown almost rank with Barry and especially when the Cornell theme is incorporated. But I recall listening to CR in the car on a long drive and not even realizing it was still playing at certain points. I've revisited SF and SP numerous times to try to find something and just can't.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    Of all the Bond composers, the ones I revisit the least are Martin, Hamlisch, and Arnold.
  • Posts: 16,167
    Octopussy wrote: »
    I think David Arnold is overrated. Now that's a controversial opinion.

    I never liked his gunbarrel music until DAD.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 4,007
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    Octopussy wrote: »
    I think David Arnold is overrated. Now that's a controversial opinion.

    I never liked his gunbarrel music until DAD.

    Agreed. The gunbarrel music shouldn't be arranged like that as it loses all it's power.

    Having said that his scores have all been excellent. CR and QoS are the epitome of what a Bond score should sound like.
  • OctopussyOctopussy Piz Gloria, Schilthorn, Switzerland.
    Posts: 1,081
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    Octopussy wrote: »
    I think David Arnold is overrated. Now that's a controversial opinion.

    I never liked his gunbarrel music until DAD.

    Agreed. The gunbarrel music shouldn't be arranged like that as it loses all it's power.

    Having said that his scores have all been excellent. CR and QoS are the epitome of what a Bond score should sound like.

    That's a big call. I'd argue that On Her Majesty's Sceret Service, Thunderball and The Living Daylights by John Barry are the epitome of what a Bond score should sound like, but each to their own!
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    edited February 2020 Posts: 4,007
    Octopussy wrote: »
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    Octopussy wrote: »
    I think David Arnold is overrated. Now that's a controversial opinion.

    I never liked his gunbarrel music until DAD.

    Agreed. The gunbarrel music shouldn't be arranged like that as it loses all it's power.

    Having said that his scores have all been excellent. CR and QoS are the epitome of what a Bond score should sound like.

    That's a big call. I'd argue that On Her Majesty's Sceret Service, Thunderball and The Living Daylights by John Barry are the epitome of what a Bond score should sound like, but each to their own!

    You misunderstand my post @Octopussy

    I was talking explicitly about Arnold. Of course most of Barry's scores were also the epitome of what a Bond score should sound like. He was the Bond sound.
  • OctopussyOctopussy Piz Gloria, Schilthorn, Switzerland.
    Posts: 1,081
    Octopussy wrote: »
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    Octopussy wrote: »
    I think David Arnold is overrated. Now that's a controversial opinion.

    I never liked his gunbarrel music until DAD.

    Agreed. The gunbarrel music shouldn't be arranged like that as it loses all it's power.

    Having said that his scores have all been excellent. CR and QoS are the epitome of what a Bond score should sound like.

    That's a big call. I'd argue that On Her Majesty's Sceret Service, Thunderball and The Living Daylights by John Barry are the epitome of what a Bond score should sound like, but each to their own!

    You misunderstand my post @Octopussy

    I was talking explicitly about Arnold. Of course most of Barry's scores were also the epitome of what a Bond score should sound like. He was the Bond sound.

    Ah! Then I agree with you, ha! Casino Royale and Quantum of Solace are Arnold's best work in the franchise. The others are repetitive and lack imagination, IMO.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    BT3366 wrote: »
    I thought Arnold's TND score was great back in '97-98 thinking finally a suitable Barry replacement. I always collected the soundtracks as they came out, but went after it with enthusiasm and it worked as both a film soundtrack and listening experience. I still like it best of his 5.

    TWINE (yes, I'm piling on as it's appropriate) was the start of a series of soundtracks with less distinctive and more generic beats which continues to this day with especially people like Newman. CR and QoS had their moments - Parts of African Rundown almost rank with Barry and especially when the Cornell theme is incorporated. But I recall listening to CR in the car on a long drive and not even realizing it was still playing at certain points. I've revisited SF and SP numerous times to try to find something and just can't.

    TND is the work of a man who has just landed his dream job and is aware he may never get another shot. After the eclectic GE, that score packed such a huge punch on the big screen.
  • Posts: 15,123
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    Octopussy wrote: »
    I think David Arnold is overrated. Now that's a controversial opinion.

    I never liked his gunbarrel music until DAD.

    Surely that can't be controversial! I mean I know DAD has its defenders here and some might even like something about its gunbarrel, but overall saying you dislike one aspect or another of DAD you'll find a lot of people in agreement.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 4,007
    Octopussy wrote: »
    Octopussy wrote: »
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    Octopussy wrote: »
    I think David Arnold is overrated. Now that's a controversial opinion.

    I never liked his gunbarrel music until DAD.

    Agreed. The gunbarrel music shouldn't be arranged like that as it loses all it's power.

    Having said that his scores have all been excellent. CR and QoS are the epitome of what a Bond score should sound like.

    That's a big call. I'd argue that On Her Majesty's Sceret Service, Thunderball and The Living Daylights by John Barry are the epitome of what a Bond score should sound like, but each to their own!

    You misunderstand my post @Octopussy

    I was talking explicitly about Arnold. Of course most of Barry's scores were also the epitome of what a Bond score should sound like. He was the Bond sound.

    Ah! Then I agree with you, ha! Casino Royale and Quantum of Solace are Arnold's best work in the franchise. The others are repetitive and lack imagination, IMO.

    I also thought his TND soundtrack was excellent.
  • edited February 2020 Posts: 1,596
    My opinion on Arnold is somewhere in the middle. I quite like his work on TND and QoS.

    I do not like it very much at all (with a couple exception tracks) his scores for TWINE and DAD.

    I am mixed-to-positive on CR's score, which I think is overall his least ambitious and therefore inoffensive. I like it just fine.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    IMO FRWL is the best Bond film, quality wise.

    But TB is the best in terms of scope and demonstrating all that makes 007 amazing.

    Out of Connery's Bond movies this one is my personal favourite. It has the best location, the best action, and the best women. It's also faithful to the novel. IMO it has no flaws.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,266
    suavejmf wrote: »
    IMO FRWL is the best Bond film, quality wise.

    But TB is the best in terms of scope and demonstrating all that makes 007 amazing.

    Out of Connery's Bond movies this one is my personal favourite. It has the best location, the best action, and the best women. It's also faithful to the novel. IMO it has no flaws.

    Hear hear!
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,134
    suavejmf wrote: »
    IMO FRWL is the best Bond film, quality wise.

    But TB is the best in terms of scope and demonstrating all that makes 007 amazing.

    Out of Connery's Bond movies this one is my personal favourite. It has the best location, the best action, and the best women. It's also faithful to the novel. IMO it has no flaws.

    TB is also my favourite Connery, representing Bond at his most archetypical best. Sir Sean, the locations, an eye-patched villain, the definitive femme fatale, the jetpack, the DB5, scubagear action, John Barry score, Ted Moore cinematography, Ken Adam sets, unseen Blofeld, Leiter and the lovely Domino. Everything truly falls into place in this one.
  • Posts: 12,473
    suavejmf wrote: »
    IMO FRWL is the best Bond film, quality wise.

    But TB is the best in terms of scope and demonstrating all that makes 007 amazing.

    Out of Connery's Bond movies this one is my personal favourite. It has the best location, the best action, and the best women. It's also faithful to the novel. IMO it has no flaws.

    Agreed. It’s tough for my ranking because I recognize FRWL is probably the most well-done, at least of the Connery films, but TB is such an amazing Bond film experience. I feel like it delivers a perfect blend of novel and movie Bond (FRWL + GF). It seems to be generally thought the first 3 Connery films are the best, and while I can totally understand that, TB deserves to at least be acknowledged more alongside them. It gives me the most joy of Connery’s outings and currently has the #3 spot of my overall ranking.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    The main problem with TB, for me, is that it’s ultimately less than the sum of its parts. The general feel of it is brilliant, the tone and the atmosphere is exceptional, in my mind’s eye I picture the scope and scale, rich with exoticism. Then I sit down and watch it, and while those elements are all there and they are truly brilliant in their own right, as a film it just lacks the cohesion and pacing and overall punch that the previous three deliver. I wouldn’t change it however.
  • edited February 2020 Posts: 2,918
    TB occupies a weird position in between the classic leanness of the first Bond films and the self-parodic excess of the later entries. It's the first film in the series to feel bloated, but remains impressive and elegant in its epic scale, avoiding the incoherence of YOLT and camp of DAF. As an adaptation it's faithful to the letter of Fleming, but not always the spirit, because the characterizations in this film are disappointing. Screen Largo and Domino are dull next to their originals, Bond is less vulnerable, and only Fiona comes alive. Nevertheless, it shows the series at the height of its self-confidence and power. Thunderball is an impersonal triumph.
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