Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • Posts: 5,634
    It seems there really is no end in sight for this particular thread..

    Got to say, while For Your Eyes Only is a very good Bond adventure, and for once - Moore actually takes things seriously - I could never place it in the top three. Second best seems a bit of a nonsense, with all due respect to @Perdogg

    It's one of the best James Bond releases of the 1980s, but I think that's about all I'll allow it right now. Enjoyed Moonraker, Live and Let Die and The Man with the Golden Gun more, for Roger Moore Bond adventures
  • edited August 2013 Posts: 57
    echo wrote:
    I like this controversial opinion and agree with you. I'm tired of the DB5 being trotted out, as if we Bond fans are supposed to have a Pavlovian response to it. It should have stayed in the '60s.
    With the Brosnan films I'd agree with you, but I actually thought the use of the DB5 in SF was quite well done.
    Perdogg wrote:
    For Your Eyes Only is probably the second best James Bond movie - ever.
    It's good, but I don't think it's that good. It's let down by the comedic opening and closing scenes - which don't really fit with the dark tone of the rest of the movie. And I happen to love Conti's score. I don't want Barry to do every film. I like to hear it mixed up every now and then, and Conti's slightly disco score was great.

    Also, Conti composed the best gunbarrel piece in the entire series!
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    FYEO is in my top ten; I do love it.
    Controversial ... hmmm.

    I'm happy that in Skyfall, Moneypenny and Bond's level of intimacy was left ambiguous; I prefer it that way.
  • edited August 2013 Posts: 3,494
    To quickly summarize, FYEO is my favorite Moore entry and is still in my top 10 after all these years. I don't find it's inclusion in such a list to be controversial at all. Moore is at his very best and most Flemingesque, showing some much needed toughness, the gags (not counting the walking one named Bibi) are way toned down, a good solid Cold War thriller with great stunts and a huge breath of fresh air after that gigantic space fart 2 years earlier :)
  • Posts: 686
    LeighBurne wrote:
    Perdogg wrote:
    For Your Eyes Only is probably the second best James Bond movie - ever.
    It's good, but I don't think it's that good. It's let down by the comedic opening and closing scenes - which don't really fit with the dark tone of the rest of the movie. And I happen to love Conti's score. I don't want Barry to do every film. I like to hear it mixed up every now and then, and Conti's slightly disco score was great.

    Also, Conti composed the best gunbarrel piece in the entire series!

    I t
    To quickly summarize, FYEO is my favorite Moore entry and is still in my top 10 after all these years. I don't find it's inclusion in such a list to be controversial at all. Moore is at his very best and most Flemingesque, showing some much needed toughness, the gags (not counting the walking one named Bibi) are way toned down, a good solid Cold War thriller with great stunts and a huge breath of fresh air after that gigantic space fart 2 years earlier :)

    There has been some complaints about the PTS, but I read in the "Battle for Bond" the PTS was a message from EON that they were done with Blofeld. I do not think the faux Maggie was no worse than "Christmas comes twice a year" bit. The music is dated, but the song at the pool (written by Conti's wife) is hilarious.

    I wish that EON took the scripting approach to the new movies - clean, clear, and concise story with the right amount of toughness and why not a bit of humour?
  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    Posts: 7,314
    I'm happy that in Skyfall, Moneypenny and Bond's level of intimacy was left ambiguous; I prefer it that way.
    To me it's not even ambiguous. IT NEVER HAPPENED!
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    pachazo wrote:
    I'm happy that in Skyfall, Moneypenny and Bond's level of intimacy was left ambiguous; I prefer it that way.
    To me it's not even ambiguous. IT NEVER HAPPENED!

    That's how I feel. Didn't they even shoot more to the scene that made it seem like something did happen, but then they cut it because they wanted it to seem ambiguous? It should only be seen that it didn't happen.
  • Posts: 686
    Creasy47 wrote:
    pachazo wrote:
    I'm happy that in Skyfall, Moneypenny and Bond's level of intimacy was left ambiguous; I prefer it that way.
    To me it's not even ambiguous. IT NEVER HAPPENED!

    That's how I feel. Didn't they even shoot more to the scene that made it seem like something did happen, but then they cut it because they wanted it to seem ambiguous? It should only be seen that it didn't happen.

    She was barely on screen enough to make a difference. This was part of the problem with SF, it was very ambivalent towards women and sexuality.
  • pachazo wrote:
    I'm happy that in Skyfall, Moneypenny and Bond's level of intimacy was left ambiguous; I prefer it that way.
    To me it's not even ambiguous. IT NEVER HAPPENED!

    That's what I think too. Even Fleming himself could only say that he "supposed" they could have had a brief affair, so if he didn't know...there was no evidence on screen to say it did...it is a bit ambiguous to be sure but it leans more towards nothing happened based on all of this.

    Perdogg wrote:
    There has been some complaints about the PTS, but I read in the "Battle for Bond" the PTS was a message from EON that they were done with Blofeld. I do not think the faux Maggie was no worse than "Christmas comes twice a year" bit. The music is dated, but the song at the pool (written by Conti's wife) is hilarious

    Aside from your clueless comment about humor in SF, for which there was a ton of great humor reminiscent of Connery in tone and delivery and a sight gag that it made sense to have in comparison to Jaws, Bondolas, winking pigeons, etc, you've made some good points in this FYEO quote. The PTS absolutely was a message to McGlory that they didn't need Blofeld to continue their success, and it was done in such a way that he and everyone who knew the character knew it was him without saying so, and legally he could do nothing about it, which had to have driven him crazy :))

    Poor Janet Brown really takes a beating around here for aping Thatcher and doing a great job of doing so. People who don't understand it miss the point there or maybe just didn't like the concept- Frederick Gray would invariably do or say something to irk Bond, and at the end Bond would always find a way to make him pay for it. Just par for the course 1977-1981, personally I found those moments humorous and don't mind them a bit. The Jones line was however typical of the pathetic attempts at comedy by P&W in TWINE save Zukovsky, and fell flat on it's face.




  • Posts: 2,483
    Perdogg wrote:
    For Your Eyes Only is probably the second best James Bond movie - ever. It is kind of hard to see that after 31 years of changes in popular culture. It was made in a day where EON was a leader. It is kind of ironic that there was a slight archeological angle to the film the same summer Indiana Jones came out.

    Its plot is probably the best and makes the most sense and is definitely Flemingesque. Maibaum and Wilson did a great job writing a script based on many novel elements including Goldfinger, Live and Let Die, Risico, and For Your Eyes Only. Not only are the fleming elements from text, but also flemingesque in tone.

    The humour wasn't overdone and I loved the Naval angle with the Minister Defence and the First Sea Lord. Sheena Easton song is great and even the ending with faux Maggie brings a smile to my face to this day. The PTS was okay, but I guess it was sort of a message to Kevin McClory . I would have preferred a Barry OST.

    At one time I think I had FYEO ranked #2 behind OHMSS. Now it is #12. But mid-pack Bond is still dam' good entertainment, IMO.

  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    LeighBurne wrote:
    chrisisall wrote:
    Dalton was and is the best cinematic Bond portrayal of Bond and will never be topped.
    I've always thought this too. I like Connery but... I dunno, he doesn't really feel like he's "into" the character to me. With Dalton you can tell he's working his arse off to really BE James Bond, like he genuinely gives a shit about getting Fleming's version of the character right.

    I've always thought the biggest travesty of the Bond series is that Dalton never got to make more movies.

    After TB I'd agree that Connery just didn't give a crap but his first 4 movies and he often cites this in related interviews, Connery went for a performance that made it look easy and natural. I like Dalton, he's a great Bond but in both his performances I saw Dalton acting lithe you've essentially said. With Connery he became and was Bond. Connery knows how to and did work his butt off the difference is he made it look easy which is an accomplishment in itself.
  • Posts: 15,124
    Creasy47 wrote:
    pachazo wrote:
    I'm happy that in Skyfall, Moneypenny and Bond's level of intimacy was left ambiguous; I prefer it that way.
    To me it's not even ambiguous. IT NEVER HAPPENED!

    That's how I feel. Didn't they even shoot more to the scene that made it seem like something did happen, but then they cut it because they wanted it to seem ambiguous? It should only be seen that it didn't happen.

    I thought it was the other way round, that they shot more to make it ambiguous. I do think it never happened either, however I remember an interview with Lois Maxwell saying that she and Connery played the role as if they had a liaison in the past, but this had ended.
  • Posts: 15,124
    Okay, here are my controversial opinions:

    -While I appreciate more LTK than I did at first, I still don't consider it a very good Bond movie.
    -The PTS of TWINE is not that great, partially because it is overlong.
    -QOS, although flawed, is still a solid movie.
    -Onatop is a caricature of a femme fatale and overall a poor Bond girl.
  • Posts: 6,396
    I also agree with the PTS of TWINE. Nearly 15 minutes? That's way, way too long. It just goes to show that studio executives shouldn't always listen to what the test audiences have to say. EON should have shown courage to end the PTS following Bond's exit from the banker's office and put the titles in BEFORE the MI6/Thames sequence.
  • edited August 2013 Posts: 2,483
    Ludovico wrote:
    Okay, here are my controversial opinions:

    -While I appreciate more LTK than I did at first, I still don't consider it a very good Bond movie.
    -The PTS of TWINE is not that great, partially because it is overlong.
    -QOS, although flawed, is still a solid movie.
    -Onatop is a caricature of a femme fatale and overall a poor Bond girl.

    I don't like TWINE's PTS at all. Once you get beyond the scenes with Lachaise it deteriorates badly. As you say, it's too long; additionally, it is convoluted and the boat chase is generic Brosnan Bond action. Overall, it's vastly overrated.

    I'm also a bit iffy on Xenia. I don't dislike her as I used to, but still think she's a bit grotesque--she goes beyond the Benign Bizarre. The S&M scene with Farrell is one of the worst in series history, and that from a guy who loves GE.

  • Posts: 15,124
    It is the opposite for me about Xenia: I don't like her as much as I used to.
  • Posts: 6,396
    @Ludovico You could be onto something there. She does appear to have become a parody of herself as time has gone on.
  • Posts: 169
    Having just watched NSNA within a couple of weeks after OP, I definitely prefer McClory's renegade production to Broccoli's official release. It's no TB and it's not a great film by any means but I enjoyed NSNA more than OP. I thought the humor was funnier (if not much more sophisticated) and the villain better. I also thought Bernie Casey was one of the best Felix Leiters in part because he came closer than usual to being an equal partner to Bond in the action-hero department. And Barbara Carrera's Fatima Blush was a very good femme fatale!
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,800
    Dr_Yes wrote:
    Bernie Casey was one of the best Felix Leiters in part because he came closer than usual to being an equal partner to Bond in the action-hero department. And Barbara Carrera's Fatima Blush was a very good femme fatale!
    Agreed! But I still like OP better.
  • Posts: 169
    chrisisall wrote:
    Dr_Yes wrote:
    Bernie Casey was one of the best Felix Leiters in part because he came closer than usual to being an equal partner to Bond in the action-hero department. And Barbara Carrera's Fatima Blush was a very good femme fatale!
    Agreed! But I still like OP better.

    I should clarify that I like NSNA only slightly better than OP. I don't fault anyone who reaches the opposite conclusion.
  • edited August 2013 Posts: 57
    Ludovico wrote:
    -The PTS of TWINE is not that great, partially because it is overlong.
    I'm guessing everyone on here knows that the PTS was originally not going to include the boat chase, until the studio freaked out about not having a proper action sequence before the credits?
    Dr_Yes wrote:
    Having just watched NSNA within a couple of weeks after OP, I definitely prefer McClory's renegade production to Broccoli's official release. It's no TB and it's not a great film by any means but I enjoyed NSNA more than OP. I thought the humor was funnier (if not much more sophisticated) and the villain better. I also thought Bernie Casey was one of the best Felix Leiters in part because he came closer than usual to being an equal partner to Bond in the action-hero department. And Barbara Carrera's Fatima Blush was a very good femme fatale!
    You've basically just summed up all the reasons I think NSNA is so unfairly dismissed by a lot of people.
  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,138
    *Goldfinger is slightly overrated by fans.
    *Diamonds Are Forever is one of the worst Bond films in the series. Although it has a wonderful script, the story, direction, special effects and in some cases acting are all below par.
    *Guy Hamilton is the weakest of the directors.
    *A View To A Kill is not nearly as bad as some make it out to be.
    *Timothy Dalton is the only actor to date to play James Bond closest to that of Ian Fleming's James Bond. Possibly the best actor to play OO7.
    *O.H.M.S.S IS a top three Bond film.
    *GoldenEye is hugely overrated.
  • Posts: 2,483
    Outside of number 3 and 7, none of that strikes me as controversial.
  • edited August 2013 Posts: 686
    I thought any of Bond movies past The Living Daylights were huge let down. Goldeneye was interesting, but I thought it was inevitable that there would be a 00 v 00. I think the comic book popular culture that now permeates in the action genre all but guaranteed it.

    Die Another Day had one of the most promising PTS, but of course, the rest is history with the tsunami surfing, invisible car, the DNA lab, and the robot suit. Rosmund Pike was wasted in this travesty.

    Skyfall was so blatantly influenced by The Dark Knight series. In fact, this is no secret, I think is it controversial that any one disputes this. I guess I will be called a chiroptophobia along with sexist and craig-hater.
  • Posts: 15,124
    Outside of number 3 and 7, none of that strikes me as controversial.

    Maybe GE is the best of Brosnan Bonds, but I do find it overrated myself, although maybe not hugely. I never thought Bond seemed that much in danger except when he fights 006 at the end, and even then, he is James Bond, the best of the 00, so Trevelyan could only have been the second best. And Onatop is a caricature. Overall, I love the movie, I adored it when it was first released, but it has weaknesses.
  • Posts: 2,483
    To my mind, GE's only weaknesses are the chase scene after the PTS involving Bond, Xenia and Bond's evaluator (obviously targeted toward 14-year-old boys and worsened by appositely silly Serra scoring), M's feminista takedown of Bond, and the character Xenia (borderline grotesque). I also found Mishkin to be a bit of a lightweight for such a weighty role. Outside of these fairly minor quibbles, superb, Mr. Bond, superb! (As Koskov might say). It is consistently in my top five, and I think I have it #2 presently.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    *Diana Rigg really isn't that good looking.

    I say this based on the fact a lot of Bond fans I have met tend to feel the opposite. I've always thought her to be one of the least good looking, even in The Avengers as Emma Peel, the catsuit just wasn't enough I'm afraid. I always thought she had a slightly weathered smoker's face and her nose is distractingly upturned. I'd rank most Bond girls above her in terms of looks. I'd lump her in with Ekland as being wildly overrated.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,800
    The Living Daylights was the last Bond move to feel connected to the earliest Bonds.
  • edited August 2013 Posts: 169
    Perdogg wrote:
    Skyfall was so blatantly influenced by The Dark Knight series. In fact, this is no secret, I think is it controversial that any one disputes this. I guess I will be called a chiroptophobia along with sexist and craig-hater.

    I don't dispute that but since I've only seen the first of the Dark Knight series, it's nothing that bothers me. You're right; it's not controversial to make that observation. However, if a lot of originality was required for Bond films, we wouldn't have any Bond films.
  • Perdogg wrote:

    Skyfall was so blatantly influenced by The Dark Knight series. In fact, this is no secret, I think is it controversial that any one disputes this. I guess I will be called a chiroptophobia along with sexist and craig-hater.

    I don't dispute the Skyfall/TDK comparison and feel it's a valid criticism. I certainly don't think it qualifies you as a Craig hater either. It's just endemic to Hollywood, there's just not a lot of originality period to be found. The amount of remakes of different movies done some years ago is proof of that.

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