Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • Posts: 1,917
    That's one of the nice things about being a Bond fan: The clothing and accessories from our series can be worn out and we don't have to look like geeky fanboys and can still enjoy the association. I've been to conventions where people wearing Klingon gear are talking gibberish and trying to recruit me to join them. That's fine if people want to do that, but the examples above about social media venom are taking things too far.

    Not that I am going to take out a second mortgage just to own an Omega or Orlebar Brown clothing ensemble and I have no desire to own a real Walther PPk. But I find close approximations from time to time that give me a Bond vibe.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited May 2020 Posts: 8,181
    echo wrote: »
    Yeah, it’s a very small portion of the SW community but boy are those whack jobs LOUD.

    And it's ironic because from the first frames of Star Wars, Carrie Fisher played a strong independent woman! RIP Carrie Fisher.

    I think it all has to do with the cultural political climate where certain men are more sensitive to seeing such things because now they just react as if it’s all an agenda/conspiracy to bring down the alpha male archetype. If Ellen Ripley and T2 Sarah Connor made their debuts today these type of fanboys would scream to the heavens about Hollywood shoving girl power at them. But because they grew up with those heroes as kids, they’re acceptable. That’s the nice thing about the kids growing up with Star Wars today is that they can enjoy these films as pure entertainment without fanboys railing about “the agenda”. To them Rey is just a hero to look up to, rather than bitch about on the internet.


  • Agent_OneAgent_One Ireland
    Posts: 280
    Ehhhh, I'd still say Rey is a very poorly written character.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,181
    For Star Wars? She’s fine. Not great outside the franchise, but a considerable step up from Anakin in the prequels.
  • Posts: 7,653
    Agent_One wrote: »
    I feel that's somewhat unfair to the SW fandom. The continuity over there is utterly screwed, and the latest films themselves make no sense at all.

    Star Wars fans have ruined people's lives (Jake Lloyd) and otherwise treat Star Wars actors horrifically because of things they didn't like in the movie/story (Kelly Marie Tran, Daisy Ridley, both of whom had to delete their social media); I don't think you could say that about Bond fans or many other fandoms.

    Again, as a Star Wars fan, I'm not saying all of them, I'd just say they have the most vicious vocal minority.

    You truly underestimate the fans of Doctro Who, and certainly the 007 fans are nothing to be proud about with craigisnotbond website which did very well initially.

    There are always fans that do not seem understand the difference between being a fan and real life.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited May 2020 Posts: 7,546
    SaintMark wrote: »
    Agent_One wrote: »
    I feel that's somewhat unfair to the SW fandom. The continuity over there is utterly screwed, and the latest films themselves make no sense at all.

    Star Wars fans have ruined people's lives (Jake Lloyd) and otherwise treat Star Wars actors horrifically because of things they didn't like in the movie/story (Kelly Marie Tran, Daisy Ridley, both of whom had to delete their social media); I don't think you could say that about Bond fans or many other fandoms.

    Again, as a Star Wars fan, I'm not saying all of them, I'd just say they have the most vicious vocal minority.

    You truly underestimate the fans of Doctro Who, and certainly the 007 fans are nothing to be proud about with craigisnotbond website which did very well initially.

    There are always fans that do not seem understand the difference between being a fan and real life.

    Fair point, I'm sure you're right that there are bad apples among many fandoms. I'd still say it's worth reading up on Jake Lloyd's life story.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,181
    I remember a red carpet interview where CraigNotBond.com was brought up to Eva Green and her instinctual reaction was to just roll her eyes.
  • Posts: 7,507
    For Star Wars? She’s fine. Not great outside the franchise, but a considerable step up from Anakin in the prequels.


    I think Rey is an example where the "Mary Sue" allegations are not just sexist drivel, but actually are quite justified. I think she is a great and very charismatic actor. She deserved a much better character to play.

    But then Rey is the least of the new trilogy´s problems...
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,711
    jobo wrote: »
    For Star Wars? She’s fine. Not great outside the franchise, but a considerable step up from Anakin in the prequels.


    I think Rey is an example where the "Mary Sue" allegations are not just sexist drivel, but actually are quite justified. I think she is a great and very charismatic actor. She deserved a much better character to play.

    But then Rey is the least of the new trilogy´s problems...

    All correct.
    Claims that ST critics are just sexist trolls don't add up. Of the Disney SW films, the one most popular with these people, and probably SW fans on the whole, is Rogue One, which also has a female lead.
    I thought TFA had the potential to be the best in the series when I saw the first 20 minutes, but Rey's being better at everything than anyone around her was a major factor in my turning on it. I mean, if Ellen Ripley were anything like Rey, the aliens and androids would have been no match for her....

    More on topic: MK12 should do the Bond titles. Kleinman does some amazing stuff, but he has a tendency toward heavy-handed imagery. I mean, a gravestone with the name "Bond" on it? (hint: it's a symbol of Bond dying!) Vesper as the Queen of Hearts? All the digitization stuff in TND, a film about newspapers and cable TV?
    It's the opposite problem to Maurice, who often gave up 1/3 through the titles and just starting putting more girls aiming guns on the screen.
  • Posts: 1,917
    SaintMark wrote: »
    Agent_One wrote: »
    I feel that's somewhat unfair to the SW fandom. The continuity over there is utterly screwed, and the latest films themselves make no sense at all.

    Star Wars fans have ruined people's lives (Jake Lloyd) and otherwise treat Star Wars actors horrifically because of things they didn't like in the movie/story (Kelly Marie Tran, Daisy Ridley, both of whom had to delete their social media); I don't think you could say that about Bond fans or many other fandoms.

    Again, as a Star Wars fan, I'm not saying all of them, I'd just say they have the most vicious vocal minority.

    You truly underestimate the fans of Doctro Who, and certainly the 007 fans are nothing to be proud about with craigisnotbond website which did very well initially.

    There are always fans that do not seem understand the difference between being a fan and real life.
    I'd hardly call the people who did craigisnotbond 007 fans. I think a lot of them were Pierce Brosnan fans foremost and some came to become Bond fans from his involvement. I hope some stayed. Now that it's nearly 15 years later, I'd like to see a story article on this from Mi6 Confidential or online.
  • Posts: 7,653
    BT3366 wrote: »
    SaintMark wrote: »
    Agent_One wrote: »
    I feel that's somewhat unfair to the SW fandom. The continuity over there is utterly screwed, and the latest films themselves make no sense at all.

    Star Wars fans have ruined people's lives (Jake Lloyd) and otherwise treat Star Wars actors horrifically because of things they didn't like in the movie/story (Kelly Marie Tran, Daisy Ridley, both of whom had to delete their social media); I don't think you could say that about Bond fans or many other fandoms.

    Again, as a Star Wars fan, I'm not saying all of them, I'd just say they have the most vicious vocal minority.

    You truly underestimate the fans of Doctro Who, and certainly the 007 fans are nothing to be proud about with craigisnotbond website which did very well initially.

    There are always fans that do not seem understand the difference between being a fan and real life.
    I'd hardly call the people who did craigisnotbond 007 fans. I think a lot of them were Pierce Brosnan fans foremost and some came to become Bond fans from his involvement. I hope some stayed. Now that it's nearly 15 years later, I'd like to see a story article on this from Mi6 Confidential or online.

    You´ve got 007 fans in all forms to dismiss them because they like one performer better than the other is daft. This group of fans did not like Craig as the new 007 which is their choice, we have not heard from them since CR, I take they were convinced.

    Fans come in many guises whether you agree with them or not, you´ve got the nutty ones and the quiet ones and a scala of fans in between.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,181
    jobo wrote: »
    For Star Wars? She’s fine. Not great outside the franchise, but a considerable step up from Anakin in the prequels.


    I think Rey is an example where the "Mary Sue" allegations are not just sexist drivel, but actually are quite justified. I think she is a great and very charismatic actor. She deserved a much better character to play.

    But then Rey is the least of the new trilogy´s problems...

    All correct.
    Claims that ST critics are just sexist trolls don't add up. Of the Disney SW films, the one most popular with these people, and probably SW fans on the whole, is Rogue One, which also has a female lead.
    I thought TFA had the potential to be the best in the series when I saw the first 20 minutes, but Rey's being better at everything than anyone around her was a major factor in my turning on it. I mean, if Ellen Ripley were anything like Rey, the aliens and androids would have been no match for her....

    More on topic: MK12 should do the Bond titles. Kleinman does some amazing stuff, but he has a tendency toward heavy-handed imagery. I mean, a gravestone with the name "Bond" on it? (hint: it's a symbol of Bond dying!) Vesper as the Queen of Hearts? All the digitization stuff in TND, a film about newspapers and cable TV?
    It's the opposite problem to Maurice, who often gave up 1/3 through the titles and just starting putting more girls aiming guns on the screen.

    And I felt Binder at a certain point got too lazy with his titles when they started to not reflect on the films thematically. In YOLT there’s so much Japanese imagery evoked it couldn’t be mistaken for any other Bond film, whereas 20 years later the titles for TLD and LTK were so interchangeable that even Cubby was upset over how lazy they turned out that he was not going to bring him back anyway even if he hadn’t passed away. I highly doubt Binder would have come up with better titles than Kleinman’s on GE unless he really upped his game back to what it used to he in the 60/70s films.
    SaintMark wrote: »
    BT3366 wrote: »
    SaintMark wrote: »
    Agent_One wrote: »
    I feel that's somewhat unfair to the SW fandom. The continuity over there is utterly screwed, and the latest films themselves make no sense at all.

    Star Wars fans have ruined people's lives (Jake Lloyd) and otherwise treat Star Wars actors horrifically because of things they didn't like in the movie/story (Kelly Marie Tran, Daisy Ridley, both of whom had to delete their social media); I don't think you could say that about Bond fans or many other fandoms.

    Again, as a Star Wars fan, I'm not saying all of them, I'd just say they have the most vicious vocal minority.

    You truly underestimate the fans of Doctro Who, and certainly the 007 fans are nothing to be proud about with craigisnotbond website which did very well initially.

    There are always fans that do not seem understand the difference between being a fan and real life.
    I'd hardly call the people who did craigisnotbond 007 fans. I think a lot of them were Pierce Brosnan fans foremost and some came to become Bond fans from his involvement. I hope some stayed. Now that it's nearly 15 years later, I'd like to see a story article on this from Mi6 Confidential or online.

    You´ve got 007 fans in all forms to dismiss them because they like one performer better than the other is daft. This group of fans did not like Craig as the new 007 which is their choice, we have not heard from them since CR, I take they were convinced.

    Fans come in many guises whether you agree with them or not, you´ve got the nutty ones and the quiet ones and a scala of fans in between.

    I think they still have a forum, but it’s a different site from what it originally started in 2005. Back then the site was founded by Deanna Brayton, who actually admitted that she wasn’t a Bond fan but rather of Brosnan himself, and the original purpose of the site was to call for a boycott not only to get rid of Craig but also bring back Brosnan, citing DAF’s return of Connery as an example of how it could be done. Of course when CR became a hit the likelihood of Brosnan returning was nonexistent and Brayton has since abandoned the site and it went onto become more of a haven for the fans that simply don’t like Craig and/or the reboot. I used to post there just because I like to have a good debate with fans with different opinions, and there’s some good blokes there aside from crazy ones like BJ (if anyone remembers him from the KTBEU years). Haven’t visited it in years though.
  • Agent_OneAgent_One Ireland
    Posts: 280
    It definitely seems like there was something of a bloodless coup in EON after LTK. Glen, Binder and Maibaum were all giving marching orders in '90. And I'd say 2/3s of that was the correct decision.

    As an aside, who exactly would've they replaced Binder with?

  • Posts: 2,917
    And I felt Binder at a certain point got too lazy with his titles when they started to not reflect on the films thematically. In YOLT there’s so much Japanese imagery evoked it couldn’t be mistaken for any other Bond film, whereas 20 years later the titles for TLD and LTK were so interchangeable... I highly doubt Binder would have come up with better titles than Kleinman’s on GE

    You're probably right. In Binder's defense, the titles for TLD do include "daylights," and LTK does have images of targets hovering on dancing girls, more dancing girls getting "shot" by a PPK, and that lady near the end firing a revolver. Nevertheless, it still feels generic and shows his level of invention has declined. There are even fewer nudes than usual.

    Kleinman's titles for GE were excellent and had some unforgettable images (the gun sliding out of the girl's mouth for example). He had an excellent run during the Brosnan era. I'm less enamored of his titles for SF and Spectre--some of the imagery is risible (octopus tentacles on shirtless Craig) and they rely too much on CGI-generated images. I wouldn't mind if the next title relied on more organic imagery, and perhaps even a few silhouettes and nude girls.
  • Posts: 15,110
    jobo wrote: »
    For Star Wars? She’s fine. Not great outside the franchise, but a considerable step up from Anakin in the prequels.


    I think Rey is an example where the "Mary Sue" allegations are not just sexist drivel, but actually are quite justified. I think she is a great and very charismatic actor. She deserved a much better character to play.

    But then Rey is the least of the new trilogy´s problems...

    All correct.
    Claims that ST critics are just sexist trolls don't add up. Of the Disney SW films, the one most popular with these people, and probably SW fans on the whole, is Rogue One, which also has a female lead.
    I thought TFA had the potential to be the best in the series when I saw the first 20 minutes, but Rey's being better at everything than anyone around her was a major factor in my turning on it. I mean, if Ellen Ripley were anything like Rey, the aliens and androids would have been no match for her....

    More on topic: MK12 should do the Bond titles. Kleinman does some amazing stuff, but he has a tendency toward heavy-handed imagery. I mean, a gravestone with the name "Bond" on it? (hint: it's a symbol of Bond dying!) Vesper as the Queen of Hearts? All the digitization stuff in TND, a film about newspapers and cable TV?
    It's the opposite problem to Maurice, who often gave up 1/3 through the titles and just starting putting more girls aiming guns on the screen.

    And I felt Binder at a certain point got too lazy with his titles when they started to not reflect on the films thematically. In YOLT there’s so much Japanese imagery evoked it couldn’t be mistaken for any other Bond film, whereas 20 years later the titles for TLD and LTK were so interchangeable that even Cubby was upset over how lazy they turned out that he was not going to bring him back anyway even if he hadn’t passed away. I highly doubt Binder would have come up with better titles than Kleinman’s on GE unless he really upped his game back to what it used to he in the 60/70s films.
    SaintMark wrote: »
    BT3366 wrote: »
    SaintMark wrote: »
    Agent_One wrote: »
    I feel that's somewhat unfair to the SW fandom. The continuity over there is utterly screwed, and the latest films themselves make no sense at all.

    Star Wars fans have ruined people's lives (Jake Lloyd) and otherwise treat Star Wars actors horrifically because of things they didn't like in the movie/story (Kelly Marie Tran, Daisy Ridley, both of whom had to delete their social media); I don't think you could say that about Bond fans or many other fandoms.

    Again, as a Star Wars fan, I'm not saying all of them, I'd just say they have the most vicious vocal minority.

    You truly underestimate the fans of Doctro Who, and certainly the 007 fans are nothing to be proud about with craigisnotbond website which did very well initially.

    There are always fans that do not seem understand the difference between being a fan and real life.
    I'd hardly call the people who did craigisnotbond 007 fans. I think a lot of them were Pierce Brosnan fans foremost and some came to become Bond fans from his involvement. I hope some stayed. Now that it's nearly 15 years later, I'd like to see a story article on this from Mi6 Confidential or online.

    You´ve got 007 fans in all forms to dismiss them because they like one performer better than the other is daft. This group of fans did not like Craig as the new 007 which is their choice, we have not heard from them since CR, I take they were convinced.

    Fans come in many guises whether you agree with them or not, you´ve got the nutty ones and the quiet ones and a scala of fans in between.

    I think they still have a forum, but it’s a different site from what it originally started in 2005. Back then the site was founded by Deanna Brayton, who actually admitted that she wasn’t a Bond fan but rather of Brosnan himself, and the original purpose of the site was to call for a boycott not only to get rid of Craig but also bring back Brosnan, citing DAF’s return of Connery as an example of how it could be done. Of course when CR became a hit the likelihood of Brosnan returning was nonexistent and Brayton has since abandoned the site and it went onto become more of a haven for the fans that simply don’t like Craig and/or the reboot. I used to post there just because I like to have a good debate with fans with different opinions, and there’s some good blokes there aside from crazy ones like BJ (if anyone remembers him from the KTBEU years). Haven’t visited it in years though.

    Bond often gets his share of "conditional" fans once a new actor is cast. Most stay, some don't. I remember some people I've met who still wanted Dalton when Brosnan became Bond. One of them even said right after the success of GE that it was time for the series to stop. I guess it is what happened regarding craigisnotbond.com : lots of conditional fans who thought Brosnan could do it eternally.
  • edited May 2020 Posts: 7,653
    I would have liked Brosnan for one more his FYEO after his DAD would have been nice. But Craig is certainly not my 007 especially after the two mod edit I consider SF & SP, but I do hope he gets his swansong with his last movie whenever it will be released.
  • Posts: 15,110
    It is one thing to wish Brosnan or Dalton or whoever had done one more Bond film. It is another to be in denial or hostile towards a new Bond simply because he succeeded to an actor you liked. And it was Craig's cardinal sin for people at DCINB.
  • Posts: 7,653
    Ludovico wrote: »
    It is one thing to wish Brosnan or Dalton or whoever had done one more Bond film. It is another to be in denial or hostile towards a new Bond simply because he succeeded to an actor you liked. And it was Craig's cardinal sin for people at DCINB.

    Who knows how we'll react to the next 007, seen enough hostility towards Brosnan & Craig as they are 007 in the internet age, I expect some issues with the next one too.

    But even if I am not a Craig 007 fan I do prefer him going out/on with a great movie and have a wee more confidence in the new director than Mendes.
  • Posts: 1,917
    I was one of the few who wasn't thrilled with the choice of Brosnan before and after Dalton. Didn't mean I wanted him to fail or boycott the series and admit he was the best successor choice.

    But I also never bought into the best Bond since Connery talk which seemed to instantly become bestowed on him after GE. I've been a huge fan of Craig's portrayal and am eager to see who replaces him unless the producers go too far out to conform to certain trends.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,110
    I remember being in favour of Craig before CR. I saw him in Road to Perdition, Layer Cake and Munich and thought he was excellent in each of those films.

    Only after seeing CR I found his portrayal a tad too brutish for Bond, even though the part was well-acted. He made up for that with a very stylish performance in QOS of course.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,181
    SaintMark wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    It is one thing to wish Brosnan or Dalton or whoever had done one more Bond film. It is another to be in denial or hostile towards a new Bond simply because he succeeded to an actor you liked. And it was Craig's cardinal sin for people at DCINB.

    Who knows how we'll react to the next 007, seen enough hostility towards Brosnan & Craig as they are 007 in the internet age, I expect some issues with the next one too.

    But even if I am not a Craig 007 fan I do prefer him going out/on with a great movie and have a wee more confidence in the new director than Mendes.

    I do believe the thing fans of Dalton and Brosnan share is the sentiment that they didn’t do enough films, that they were robbed of a longer legacy (especially in Dalton’s case). I don’t think that’s how Craig’s fans will feel, so there shouldn’t be any unneeded resentment for the new guy. Craig has done the longest since Roger Moore, as nobody did fifth film since 1981 with FYEO. Craig is also leaving on his own terms with NTTD, whereas LTK and DAD were not meant to be the final films for Dalton and Brosnan when they were made.
  • Posts: 7,653
    Daltons reign ran into the issues about Thunderball and McGlory and then the American
    chairman of UA did not want to continue with Dalton because he failed to be accepted with the American audiences at that time, but Brosnan was not given a 5th because he got replaced, so I can understand the Brosnan fans being annoyed. he did very well with his movies so EON had not cause of replacing him. So I can understand the Brosnan 007 fans being somewhat miffed.

    Diffeence between the two is that Brosnans reign was well into the internet era whereas the other 007's were safely clear from them.
  • Posts: 7,653
    Fans remain fans and their believes always are cause for discussion.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,181
    My point is I understand why their hardcore fans would be upset that they didn’t get to do another, especially one designed as a swan song, and then feel resentful over the replacement. Craig fans will unlikely feel resentful of the next actor replacing him.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,287
    Ludovico wrote: »
    It is one thing to wish Brosnan or Dalton or whoever had done one more Bond film. It is another to be in denial or hostile towards a new Bond simply because he succeeded to an actor you liked. And it was Craig's cardinal sin for people at DCINB.

    If the Internet were popular in the '80s, or even 1995, there would have been a lot of complaining about the Brosnan-Dalton situation.
  • Posts: 7,653
    My point is I understand why their hardcore fans would be upset that they didn’t get to do another, especially one designed as a swan song, and then feel resentful over the replacement. Craig fans will unlikely feel resentful of the next actor replacing him.

    True but they will still call Craig better and why did he not do the sixth it would have been better. Except when EON takes a long break even Craig is a 50+ person already.
  • edited May 2020 Posts: 7,507
    Whoever the next Bond is, he will have quite a task on hand and huge responsibility to deliver. Craig has a fantastic appeal with the general audience, even more so than Brosnan who himself was very popular at the time. In many ways Craig has made Bond "cool" again.

    I am curious to see wether the producers will be tempted to go for an established, well known A-list star, or if they will continue the tradition of hiring fairly unknown actors.
  • Agent_OneAgent_One Ireland
    Posts: 280
    jobo wrote: »
    Whoever the next Bond is, he will have quite a task on hand and huge responsibility to deliver. Craig has a fantastic appeal with the general audience, even more so than Brosnan who himself was very popular at the time. In many ways Craig has made Bond "cool" again.

    I am curious to see wether the producers will be tempted to go for an established, well known A-list star, or if they will continue the tradition of hiring fairly unknown actors.

    Moore was actually fairly well known when cast.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,615
    So were Dalton, Brosnan (both times) and Craig. All were generally known for movie and TV audiences.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,181
    I'd say Moore and Brosnan were the only household names prior to becoming Bond, as they were well known TV stars for their hit shows like THE SAINT and REMINGTON STEELE. Dalton and Craig prior to Bond might have been recognizable faces people had seen here and there, but I wouldn't have called them household names.
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