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Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • FoxRoxFoxRox
    Posts: 12,514
    My TND appreciation has gone up a lot over time, but I definitely can't put it ahead of LTK. Dalton + Brosnan together ranked for me would go:

    1. GoldenEye
    2. Licence to Kill
    3. The Living Daylights
    4. Tomorrow Never Dies
    5. The World Is Not Enough
    6. Die Another Day
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,201
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    I also prefer TND over LTK.TND is just so much fun!

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  • RevelatorRevelator
    edited June 2020 Posts: 2,919
    I would take LTK over everything from the Brosnan era. GE is the best directed Brosnan film and does a credible job of bringing Bond into the post-Soviet era, but the film's attempts to critique Bond are heavy-handed and much of its other content feels like Bondian pastiche (a complaint that applies even more to its successors).

    I admire LTK for blending Fleming with modern action film tropes, the seething intensity of Dalton's performance, the daring attempt to increase violence and adult subject matter, the strong characterizations of the villain and Bond girl, Bond's emotional arc (going from obsessed lone avenger to someone who realizes he must rely on his allies), and how the stunts advance the plot rather than interrupting it. I don't think these elements were as strongly clustered in any of the following four films. And while I was never emotionally engaged by the Brosnan films, by the end of LTK I shared Bond's emotional satisfaction in achieving revenge.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,511
    Revelator wrote: »
    I would take LTK over everything from the Brosnan era. GE is the best directed Brosnan film and does a credible job of bringing Bond into the post-Soviet era, but film's attempts to critique Bond are heavy-handed and much of its other content feels like Bondian pastiche (a complaint that applies even more to its successors).

    I admire LTK for blending Fleming with modern action film tropes, the seething intensity of Dalton's performance, the daring attempt to increase violence and adult subject matter, the strong characterizations of the villain and Bond girl, Bond's emotional arc (going from obsessed lone avenger to someone who realizes he must rely on his allies), and how the stunts advance the plot rather than interrupting it. I don't think these elements were as strongly clustered in any of the following four films. And while I was never emotionally engaged by the Brosnan films, by the end of LTK I shared Bond's emotional satisfaction in achieving revenge.

    Very well stated... I can’t disagree...
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited June 2020 Posts: 6,359
    peter wrote: »
    Revelator wrote: »
    I would take LTK over everything from the Brosnan era. GE is the best directed Brosnan film and does a credible job of bringing Bond into the post-Soviet era, but film's attempts to critique Bond are heavy-handed and much of its other content feels like Bondian pastiche (a complaint that applies even more to its successors).

    I admire LTK for blending Fleming with modern action film tropes, the seething intensity of Dalton's performance, the daring attempt to increase violence and adult subject matter, the strong characterizations of the villain and Bond girl, Bond's emotional arc (going from obsessed lone avenger to someone who realizes he must rely on his allies), and how the stunts advance the plot rather than interrupting it. I don't think these elements were as strongly clustered in any of the following four films. And while I was never emotionally engaged by the Brosnan films, by the end of LTK I shared Bond's emotional satisfaction in achieving revenge.

    Very well stated... I can’t disagree...

    I take it that MGW had to finish the script because Maibaum had to go on strike. And that Babs was in charge of the final chase sequence. I'd say this was probably Cubby's mentoring at his best.

    The stunt sequence off the Wavecrest has yet to be topped in any of the following films. That's Glen at his peak powers.
  • RevelatorRevelator
    edited June 2020 Posts: 2,919
    echo wrote: »
    I take it that MGW had to finish the script because Maibaum had to go on strike.

    That's correct. Maibaum and Wilson had completed a full treatment (which you can read here--it's close to the film but has some interesting differences) but when the writer's strike arrived Maibaum was prevented from working on the script.

  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    Revelator wrote: »
    I would take LTK over everything from the Brosnan era. GE is the best directed Brosnan film and does a credible job of bringing Bond into the post-Soviet era, but the film's attempts to critique Bond are heavy-handed and much of its other content feels like Bondian pastiche (a complaint that applies even more to its successors).

    I admire LTK for blending Fleming with modern action film tropes, the seething intensity of Dalton's performance, the daring attempt to increase violence and adult subject matter, the strong characterizations of the villain and Bond girl, Bond's emotional arc (going from obsessed lone avenger to someone who realizes he must rely on his allies), and how the stunts advance the plot rather than interrupting it. I don't think these elements were as strongly clustered in any of the following four films. And while I was never emotionally engaged by the Brosnan films, by the end of LTK I shared Bond's emotional satisfaction in achieving revenge.

    What a brilliant post. I wholeheartedly agree.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,198
    Revelator wrote: »
    I would take LTK over everything from the Brosnan era. GE is the best directed Brosnan film and does a credible job of bringing Bond into the post-Soviet era, but the film's attempts to critique Bond are heavy-handed and much of its other content feels like Bondian pastiche (a complaint that applies even more to its successors).

    I admire LTK for blending Fleming with modern action film tropes, the seething intensity of Dalton's performance, the daring attempt to increase violence and adult subject matter, the strong characterizations of the villain and Bond girl, Bond's emotional arc (going from obsessed lone avenger to someone who realizes he must rely on his allies), and how the stunts advance the plot rather than interrupting it. I don't think these elements were as strongly clustered in any of the following four films. And while I was never emotionally engaged by the Brosnan films, by the end of LTK I shared Bond's emotional satisfaction in achieving revenge.

    Great post.
  • Mathis1Mathis1
    Posts: 7,532
    Revelator wrote: »
    I would take LTK over everything from the Brosnan era. GE is the best directed Brosnan film and does a credible job of bringing Bond into the post-Soviet era, but the film's attempts to critique Bond are heavy-handed and much of its other content feels like Bondian pastiche (a complaint that applies even more to its successors).

    I admire LTK for blending Fleming with modern action film tropes, the seething intensity of Dalton's performance, the daring attempt to increase violence and adult subject matter, the strong characterizations of the villain and Bond girl, Bond's emotional arc (going from obsessed lone avenger to someone who realizes he must rely on his allies), and how the stunts advance the plot rather than interrupting it. I don't think these elements were as strongly clustered in any of the following four films. And while I was never emotionally engaged by the Brosnan films, by the end of LTK I shared Bond's emotional satisfaction in achieving revenge.

    Very good post, particularly the last line!
  • BT3366BT3366
    Posts: 1,926
    I much prefer the Bond-Sanchez relationship opposed to the Bond-Trevelyan relationship. Sanchez is more complex and interesting and feels more dangerous despite Trevelyan's service training.

    One of the aspects of GE I don't care for is suddenly giving Bond a fellow 00 he has a friendship with. And can we also recognize how bad Mi6's research is if they couldn't do a better background check on Trevelyan? It's one thing we can't blame the Dench M for, I guess.
  • BMW_with_missilesBMW_with_missiles All the usual refinements.
    Posts: 3,000
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    I also prefer TND over LTK.TND is just so much fun!

    This is a man of good taste and refinement.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    edited June 2020 Posts: 5,131
    Next controversial opinion....GE is mediocre and overrated;

    “As a soft reboot to the Bond movies, GoldenEye was a triumph and even its theme song, evoked the vintage mood of Shirley Bassey's Goldfinger ballad. GoldenEye successfully proved James Bond belonged in the '90s, but there were some issues. Some of GoldenEye's dialogue is quotable but overall, Bond relied heavily on cringe-worthy double entendres and schoolboy puns (it would only get worse as Brosnan's run continued) against an odd un-bondian score.

    Furthermore, without Fleming's crackerjack spy stories to serve as a baseline, the plot was nonsensical and it devolved into a series of explosions and action set pieces. Still, GoldenEye worked financially, and it was well-received, but was it a classic Bond movie? Not really; GoldenEye is more of a confection and a spectacle that Fleming fans couldn't take seriously as they would Casino Royale 19 years later.

    Pierce Brosnan deserved to star in even better Bond movie... but he never got it.”
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Ranking the Dalton/Brosnan films:

    1 LTK
    2 DAD
    3 TND
    4 TLD
    5 GE
    6 TWINE
  • AstonLotusAstonLotus
    Posts: 1,394
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Next controversial opinion....GE is mediocre and overrated;

    “As a soft reboot to the Bond movies, GoldenEye was a triumph and even its theme song, evoked the vintage mood of Shirley Bassey's Goldfinger ballad. GoldenEye successfully proved James Bond belonged in the '90s, but there were some issues. Some of GoldenEye's dialogue is quotable but overall, Bond relied heavily on cringe-worthy double entendres and schoolboy puns (it would only get worse as Brosnan's run continued) against an odd un-bondian score.

    Furthermore, without Fleming's crackerjack spy stories to serve as a baseline, the plot was nonsensical and it devolved into a series of explosions and action set pieces. Still, GoldenEye worked financially, and it was well-received, but was it a classic Bond movie? Not really; GoldenEye is more of a confection and a spectacle that Fleming fans couldn't take seriously as they would Casino Royale 19 years later.

    Pierce Brosnan deserved to star in even better Bond movie... but he never got it.”

    Id agree that GE is somewhat overrated but i wouldnt go so far to call it mediocre.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,201
    I think calling GE "mediocre" is less of a reaction to that film and more over how adored it was by fans and audiences in general. It's only multiplied by the fact that most audiences didn't give LTK, and by extension Dalton, a chance, whereas GE and Brosnan was welcomed to open arms. So it's not enough to just say "I'm not a fan of GE", you have to take it down a peg, say it's actually lesser than people believe it to be.

    Same thing happened with those turning their noses up at SF in the face of its overwhelming popularity.
  • PrinceKamalKhanPrinceKamalKhan Monsoon Palace, Udaipur
    Posts: 3,262
    suavejmf wrote: »
    CraigMooreOHMSS wrote: »
    These days, the only Brosnan film I prefer to LTK is GE, so I don't think that is too controversial either, @suavejmf ;)

    I agree, but it is usually controversial to like LTK more than GE. ;)

    Indeed. If GE had starred Dalton(as originally intended) and had been scored by either John Barry or David Arnold I'd probably prefer it to LTK. But as the films stand in reality, I prefer LTK to GE.
    echo wrote: »
    LTK is the closest we will ever get to a sequel to OHMSS.

    Agreed. Just see Della as a stand-in for Tracy and Sanchez as a stand-in for Blofeld.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,230
    PrinceKamalKhan wrote: »
    Agreed. Just see Della as a stand-in for Tracy and Sanchez as a stand-in for Blofeld.

    I think Bond would be taking revenge on Leiter if Della was standing in for Tracy! ;)
  • PrinceKamalKhanPrinceKamalKhan Monsoon Palace, Udaipur
    Posts: 3,262
    CraigMooreOHMSS wrote: »
    PrinceKamalKhan wrote: »
    Agreed. Just see Della as a stand-in for Tracy and Sanchez as a stand-in for Blofeld.

    I think Bond would be taking revenge on Leiter if Della was standing in for Tracy! ;)

    Well, Mrs. Leiter does seem a bit too affectionate towards her husband's best man at the wedding reception and Bond does seem to have more chemistry with her than either Lupe or "Miss Kennedy" IMHO. Or maybe Dalton Bond just seemed to work better with blondes?
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    edited June 2020 Posts: 5,131
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    I think calling GE "mediocre" is less of a reaction to that film and more over how adored it was by fans and audiences in general. It's only multiplied by the fact that most audiences didn't give LTK, and by extension Dalton, a chance, whereas GE and Brosnan was welcomed to open arms. So it's not enough to just say "I'm not a fan of GE", you have to take it down a peg, say it's actually lesser than people believe it to be.

    Same thing happened with those turning their noses up at SF in the face of its overwhelming popularity.

    It’s actually a personal opinion of mine that GE is mediocre, rather than a reaction to anything. It was the first Bond film I saw at the cinema (I’d seen all the past Bond films on video/ TV but had been too young to see LTK at the cinema). I just thought GE was ok and was disappointed.

    To me Brosnan looked like a Bond, but he wasn’t better than Moore, Connery or Dalton.

    The odd score and lack of the Bond theme was baffling and the ‘satellite in space’ plot device was uninspired.

    I remember liking the lavish production, darker/ serious tone and impressive set pieces. But I just kept thinking that I much preferred the past films. I was glad Bond was finally back, but I wasn’t ‘overjoyed’ with the product.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 4,077
    suavejmf wrote: »
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    I think calling GE "mediocre" is less of a reaction to that film and more over how adored it was by fans and audiences in general. It's only multiplied by the fact that most audiences didn't give LTK, and by extension Dalton, a chance, whereas GE and Brosnan was welcomed to open arms. So it's not enough to just say "I'm not a fan of GE", you have to take it down a peg, say it's actually lesser than people believe it to be.

    Same thing happened with those turning their noses up at SF in the face of its overwhelming popularity.

    It’s actually a personal opinion of mine that GE is mediocre, rather than a reaction to anything. It was the first Bond film I saw at the cinema (I’d seen all the past Bond films on video/ TV but had been too young to see LTK at the cinema). I just thought GE was ok and was disappointed.

    To me Brosnan looked like a Bond, but he wasn’t better than Moore, Connery or Dalton.

    The odd score and lack of the Bond theme was baffling and the ‘satellite in space’ plot device was uninspired.

    I remember liking the lavish production, darker/ serious tone and impressive set pieces. But I just kept thinking that I much preferred the past films. I was glad Bond was finally back, but I wasn’t ‘overjoyed’ with the product.

    It's actually risen a little in my estimation on my last watch. But the characters of Boris, Wade and Zukovsky i just find so irritating...
  • FatherValentineFatherValentine England
    Posts: 737
    The problem with Goldeneye, at least on my last watch, is that it is extremely boring and way too much of it is devoted to Natalya. What underscores this is the sheer childishness of the Boris/Natalya scenes. They are embarrassing to watch.

    In the climax Bond goes into action wearing military fatigues, but armed only with a small calibre handgun and a pen. Stupid. At least in TND he goes into the final showdown fully equipped.

    I can ignore other problems. All Bond films have things that irritate, even the very best ones. But when watching GE last time the embarrassing dialogue and performances and time it takes to get going really grated on me.


  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    LeonardPine wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    I think calling GE "mediocre" is less of a reaction to that film and more over how adored it was by fans and audiences in general. It's only multiplied by the fact that most audiences didn't give LTK, and by extension Dalton, a chance, whereas GE and Brosnan was welcomed to open arms. So it's not enough to just say "I'm not a fan of GE", you have to take it down a peg, say it's actually lesser than people believe it to be.

    Same thing happened with those turning their noses up at SF in the face of its overwhelming popularity.

    It’s actually a personal opinion of mine that GE is mediocre, rather than a reaction to anything. It was the first Bond film I saw at the cinema (I’d seen all the past Bond films on video/ TV but had been too young to see LTK at the cinema). I just thought GE was ok and was disappointed.

    To me Brosnan looked like a Bond, but he wasn’t better than Moore, Connery or Dalton.

    The odd score and lack of the Bond theme was baffling and the ‘satellite in space’ plot device was uninspired.

    I remember liking the lavish production, darker/ serious tone and impressive set pieces. But I just kept thinking that I much preferred the past films. I was glad Bond was finally back, but I wasn’t ‘overjoyed’ with the product.

    It's actually risen a little in my estimation on my last watch. But the characters of Boris, Wade and Zukovsky i just find so irritating...

    Wade is abysmal writing, I agree.
  • jobojobo
    Posts: 7,507
    I agree with pretty much everything that has been said about GE. I just want to add that I think Boris is the single most annoying character in Bond. I would take J. W. Pepper and Bibi every day over him!
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,201
    Boris was fun!!! You negative nancies! :P
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    Boris was fun!!! You negative nancies! :P

    Ha ha! Wades the one who’s most annoying and grossly incompetent. He’s like a fat parody of Leiter.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,201
    I thought the fat parody of Leiter was Norman Burton.

    I liked Wade in GE, however it’s in TND that he comes off overbearing, as if they put more emphasis on his little quirks. And it’s just a cameo that doesn’t really amount to much.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    I thought the fat parody of Leiter was Norman Burton.

    I liked Wade in GE, however it’s in TND that he comes off overbearing, as if they put more emphasis on his little quirks. And it’s just a cameo that doesn’t really amount to much.

    Ha ha! Yes that’s true.

    Still dislike Wade more. There is no point to him, he’s a goon and is insulting to Americans.
  • BT3366BT3366
    Posts: 1,926
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    I think calling GE "mediocre" is less of a reaction to that film and more over how adored it was by fans and audiences in general. It's only multiplied by the fact that most audiences didn't give LTK, and by extension Dalton, a chance, whereas GE and Brosnan was welcomed to open arms. So it's not enough to just say "I'm not a fan of GE", you have to take it down a peg, say it's actually lesser than people believe it to be.

    Same thing happened with those turning their noses up at SF in the face of its overwhelming popularity.
    Completely disagree with this view when I formed those opinions from the first time I saw each respective film. I've seen countless cases of "GE was my first film and made me a Bond fan" or "The video game made me a fan." So that could go as a sentimental vote. The first film I saw new in the cinema was DAF, and I am still a fan, but I don't go out of my way to try and argue they just aren't getting it or it's better than it is.

    I see a lot in GE and SF that don't work for me and will continue to make my points as to why. Just because something was more widely popular doesn't necessarily make it sacred and immune to criticism. If anything, that makes them more open to such.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    BT3366 wrote: »
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    I think calling GE "mediocre" is less of a reaction to that film and more over how adored it was by fans and audiences in general. It's only multiplied by the fact that most audiences didn't give LTK, and by extension Dalton, a chance, whereas GE and Brosnan was welcomed to open arms. So it's not enough to just say "I'm not a fan of GE", you have to take it down a peg, say it's actually lesser than people believe it to be.

    Same thing happened with those turning their noses up at SF in the face of its overwhelming popularity.
    Completely disagree with this view when I formed those opinions from the first time I saw each respective film. I've seen countless cases of "GE was my first film and made me a Bond fan" or "The video game made me a fan." So that could go as a sentimental vote. The first film I saw new in the cinema was DAF, and I am still a fan, but I don't go out of my way to try and argue they just aren't getting it or it's better than it is.

    I see a lot in GE and SF that don't work for me and will continue to make my points as to why. Just because something was more widely popular doesn't necessarily make it sacred and immune to criticism. If anything, that makes them more open to such.

    I've seen countless cases of "GE was my first film at the cinema” and made me a Bond fan" or "The video game made me a fan as you have.

    GE was the first Bond film I watched at the Cinema and I had the game. It’s an average Bond film. Not the best, not the worst.
  • ToTheRightToTheRight
    Posts: 16,204
    suavejmf wrote: »
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    I thought the fat parody of Leiter was Norman Burton.

    I liked Wade in GE, however it’s in TND that he comes off overbearing, as if they put more emphasis on his little quirks. And it’s just a cameo that doesn’t really amount to much.

    Ha ha! Yes that’s true.

    Still dislike Wade more. There is no point to him, he’s a goon and is insulting to Americans.

    I remember my Mom being particularly offended by Wade's portrayal in the film. She thought GE was the "worst Bond film ever!!!!!""
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