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Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,201
    I think it's better to judge the 1954 TV adaptation as a product of its time. It was only meant to air just one night for an American audience, specifically those who actually bothered to buy a TV set. It wasn't meant to be something people would actually look back on nearly 70 years later and scrutinize.
  • ToTheRightToTheRight
    Posts: 16,204
    suavejmf wrote: »
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    Controversial opinion:

    I find Barry Nelson to be a GREAT James Bond.

    Very controversial. What do you like about his portrayal?

    He basically changed the character completely: Nelson played James Bond as an American agent whom some in the program call "Jimmy". In 2004, Nelson said, "At that time, no one had ever heard of James Bond...I was scratching my head wondering how to play it. I hadn't read the book or anything like that because it wasn't well-known”.

    I wouldn't say he changed the character. By 1954, the character we know and love hadn't been fully established yet. Fleming embellished Bond with more characteristics and personality as he progressed.
    Nelson basically took the character as written for a live TV adaptation and injected him with a bit of wit, and humor. Kind of a low budget noir Bond.
    I read an interview where he mentioned how nervous he was and was trying not to imitate Bogie.
    I think he did a great job for live TV.
  • marcmarc Universal Exports
    edited July 2020 Posts: 2,611
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    AVTAK has a great first half. The ski chase, the title song, Paris, the château. I think that's all excellent stuff. After that I still like the sea pump station infiltration and Pola Ivanova. I even don't mind the 'fight' in Stacey's house and the quiche moment. The abandoned mine and the Golden Gate finale are fine too.

    But boy, the fire at city hall and the ensuing chase hurt the film. I'm convinced AVTAK could be a favourite if they had done things differently for those two scenes. Stacey gets a lot of slack, but her worst moments are during these scenes. There is also zero tension during either scene. Glen has delivered some of the series' best action and suspense scenes, but these two are some of the worst. That ridiculous buffoon of a sheriff doesn't help things either. Such a pity, really.
    There are many things I like about AVTAK; its finale/villain plot is my favourite one (although I have to ignore the machine-gun violence). What I don't like are the Pola Ivanova side plot, some goofy dialogue and Mayday, except her sacrifice in the end. I actually like the firetruck chase, perhaps because Frisco is still an exotic location for me and I've rarely seen a Frisco chase on screen.

  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,599
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    AVTAK has a great first half. The ski chase, the title song, Paris, the château. I think that's all excellent stuff. After that I still like the sea pump station infiltration and Pola Ivanova. I even don't mind the 'fight' in Stacey's house and the quiche moment. The abandoned mine and the Golden Gate finale are fine too.

    But boy, the fire at city hall and the ensuing chase hurt the film. I'm convinced AVTAK could be a favourite if they had done things differently for those two scenes. Stacey gets a lot of slack, but her worst moments are during these scenes. There is also zero tension during either scene. Glen has delivered some of the series' best action and suspense scenes, but these two are some of the worst. That ridiculous buffoon of a sheriff doesn't help things either. Such a pity, really.

    +1
    It all falls apart from the sea pump scene. After that it feels like I'm watching a Hallmark Movie of the Week until the fire truck scene. Nothing at Staceys house feels like a Bond film.
  • FatherValentineFatherValentine England
    edited July 2020 Posts: 737
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    Controversial opinion:

    I find Barry Nelson to be a GREAT James Bond.

    Very controversial. What do you like about his portrayal?

    He basically changed the character completely: Nelson played James Bond as an American agent whom some in the program call "Jimmy". In 2004, Nelson said, "At that time, no one had ever heard of James Bond...I was scratching my head wondering how to play it. I hadn't read the book or anything like that because it wasn't well-known”.

    I wouldn't say he changed the character. By 1954, the character we know and love hadn't been fully established yet. Fleming embellished Bond with more characteristics and personality as he progressed.
    Nelson basically took the character as written for a live TV adaptation and injected him with a bit of wit, and humor. Kind of a low budget noir Bond.
    I read an interview where he mentioned how nervous he was and was trying not to imitate Bogie.
    I think he did a great job for live TV.

    I agree with that he did a great job. Maybe I am giving him too much credit, but I like his performance a lot. I certainly prefer his swagger to that of Niven's interpretation of the role.

    Saying all that, he's clearly in the bottom two of performances as Bond.
  • Mathis1Mathis1
    Posts: 7,532
    marc wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    AVTAK has a great first half. The ski chase, the title song, Paris, the château. I think that's all excellent stuff. After that I still like the sea pump station infiltration and Pola Ivanova. I even don't mind the 'fight' in Stacey's house and the quiche moment. The abandoned mine and the Golden Gate finale are fine too.

    But boy, the fire at city hall and the ensuing chase hurt the film. I'm convinced AVTAK could be a favourite if they had done things differently for those two scenes. Stacey gets a lot of slack, but her worst moments are during these scenes. There is also zero tension during either scene. Glen has delivered some of the series' best action and suspense scenes, but these two are some of the worst. That ridiculous buffoon of a sheriff doesn't help things either. Such a pity, really.
    There are many things I like about AVTAK; its finale/villain plot is my favourite one (although I have to ignore the machine-gun violence). What I don't like are the Pola Ivanova side plot, some goofy dialogue and Mayday, except her sacrifice in the end. I actually like the firetruck chase, perhaps because Frisco is still an exotic location for me and I've rarely seen a Frisco chase on screen.

    Have you not seen 'Bullitt'?
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,074
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    marc wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    AVTAK has a great first half. The ski chase, the title song, Paris, the château. I think that's all excellent stuff. After that I still like the sea pump station infiltration and Pola Ivanova. I even don't mind the 'fight' in Stacey's house and the quiche moment. The abandoned mine and the Golden Gate finale are fine too.

    But boy, the fire at city hall and the ensuing chase hurt the film. I'm convinced AVTAK could be a favourite if they had done things differently for those two scenes. Stacey gets a lot of slack, but her worst moments are during these scenes. There is also zero tension during either scene. Glen has delivered some of the series' best action and suspense scenes, but these two are some of the worst. That ridiculous buffoon of a sheriff doesn't help things either. Such a pity, really.
    There are many things I like about AVTAK; its finale/villain plot is my favourite one (although I have to ignore the machine-gun violence). What I don't like are the Pola Ivanova side plot, some goofy dialogue and Mayday, except her sacrifice in the end. I actually like the firetruck chase, perhaps because Frisco is still an exotic location for me and I've rarely seen a Frisco chase on screen.

    Have you not seen 'Bullitt'?

    Nor "What's Up, Doc"? "The Rock"? Or maybe "The Dead Pool"?
  • Mathis1Mathis1
    Posts: 7,532
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    marc wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    AVTAK has a great first half. The ski chase, the title song, Paris, the château. I think that's all excellent stuff. After that I still like the sea pump station infiltration and Pola Ivanova. I even don't mind the 'fight' in Stacey's house and the quiche moment. The abandoned mine and the Golden Gate finale are fine too.

    But boy, the fire at city hall and the ensuing chase hurt the film. I'm convinced AVTAK could be a favourite if they had done things differently for those two scenes. Stacey gets a lot of slack, but her worst moments are during these scenes. There is also zero tension during either scene. Glen has delivered some of the series' best action and suspense scenes, but these two are some of the worst. That ridiculous buffoon of a sheriff doesn't help things either. Such a pity, really.
    There are many things I like about AVTAK; its finale/villain plot is my favourite one (although I have to ignore the machine-gun violence). What I don't like are the Pola Ivanova side plot, some goofy dialogue and Mayday, except her sacrifice in the end. I actually like the firetruck chase, perhaps because Frisco is still an exotic location for me and I've rarely seen a Frisco chase on screen.

    Have you not seen 'Bullitt'?

    Nor "What's Up, Doc"? "The Rock"? Or maybe "The Dead Pool"?

    I'll add '48Hrs' (car and bus) to the list and a little thriller caled 'Busting' has a great ambulance chase finale! Both in Frisco!
  • marcmarc Universal Exports
    edited July 2020 Posts: 2,611
    I've watched 'What's Up, Doc', but right now I can't remember another one. If you can
    recommend it, I might check it out soon; I know McQueen/Vaughn/Duvall from a few
    other movies ("Lonesome Dove" miniseries, e.g.), so sounds interesting.
  • Mathis1Mathis1
    Posts: 7,532
    marc wrote: »
    I've watched 'What's Up, Doc', but right now I can't remember another one. If you can
    recommend it, I might check it out soon; I know McQueen/Vaughn/Duvall from a few
    other movies ("Lonesome Dove" miniseries, e.g.), so sounds interesting.

    Would highly recommend 'Bullitt'! One of THE very best cop thrillers, and not just for the car chase, which is sublime! McQueen and Vaughan are great foils and Jackie Bisset is gorgeous! Tight direction from Brit Peter Yates! Oh, and lets not forget that super cool music from Lalo Schifrin !
  • TorgeirtrapTorgeirtrap
    Posts: 17,814
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    marc wrote: »
    I've watched 'What's Up, Doc', but right now I can't remember another one. If you can
    recommend it, I might check it out soon; I know McQueen/Vaughn/Duvall from a few
    other movies ("Lonesome Dove" miniseries, e.g.), so sounds interesting.

    Would highly recommend 'Bullitt'! One of THE very best cop thrillers, and not just for the car chase, which is sublime! McQueen and Vaughan are great foils and Jackie Bisset is gorgeous! Tight direction from Brit Peter Yates! Oh, and lets not forget that super cool music from Lalo Schifrin !

    Bullitt is one of my all time favourite films. Up there with the best of the Bond films, The Ipcress File, Vertigo, Rear Window and North By Northwest.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    edited July 2020 Posts: 5,131
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    marc wrote: »
    I've watched 'What's Up, Doc', but right now I can't remember another one. If you can
    recommend it, I might check it out soon; I know McQueen/Vaughn/Duvall from a few
    other movies ("Lonesome Dove" miniseries, e.g.), so sounds interesting.

    Would highly recommend 'Bullitt'! One of THE very best cop thrillers, and not just for the car chase, which is sublime! McQueen and Vaughan are great foils and Jackie Bisset is gorgeous! Tight direction from Brit Peter Yates! Oh, and lets not forget that super cool music from Lalo Schifrin !

    +1.
  • marcmarc Universal Exports
    Posts: 2,611
    I've had WLAN for some minutes and watched the first mins of the Bullitt chase. As you've said, fantastic score and direction, and I like the landscape a lot. Intend to watch the whole movie soon and to check out Schifrins film scores. Thanks for the recommendations (those by @Torgeirtrap as well)!
  • marcmarc Universal Exports
    Posts: 2,611
    About Barry Nelson: he may not fit into the JB mould we know today, objectively, but for me, he is a great Bond indeed. I like the 1954 film very much, especially with the focus that it gives to the Card Game.
  • marcmarc Universal Exports
    Posts: 2,611
    👍
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    edited July 2020 Posts: 1,714
    marc wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    AVTAK has a great first half. The ski chase, the title song, Paris, the château. I think that's all excellent stuff. After that I still like the sea pump station infiltration and Pola Ivanova. I even don't mind the 'fight' in Stacey's house and the quiche moment. The abandoned mine and the Golden Gate finale are fine too.

    But boy, the fire at city hall and the ensuing chase hurt the film. I'm convinced AVTAK could be a favourite if they had done things differently for those two scenes. Stacey gets a lot of slack, but her worst moments are during these scenes. There is also zero tension during either scene. Glen has delivered some of the series' best action and suspense scenes, but these two are some of the worst. That ridiculous buffoon of a sheriff doesn't help things either. Such a pity, really.
    There are many things I like about AVTAK; its finale/villain plot is my favourite one (although I have to ignore the machine-gun violence). What I don't like are the Pola Ivanova side plot, some goofy dialogue and Mayday, except her sacrifice in the end. I actually like the firetruck chase, perhaps because Frisco is still an exotic location for me and I've rarely seen a Frisco chase on screen.

    I love AVTAK, so this isn't meant as a real criticism, but when you mentioned the Pola Ivanova sideplot, I thought, "Isn't 90% of AVTAK sideplot?" It's strange how late into the proceedings Bond and the audience are truly clued into what Zorin is doing. They're already in the bloody mine!

    Again, love the movie, but the Nazi stuff, the horse stuff, the former KGB thing,its really a lot of sideplot, isn't it?
  • BT3366BT3366
    Posts: 1,926
    ProfJoeButcher wrote: »
    marc wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    AVTAK has a great first half. The ski chase, the title song, Paris, the château. I think that's all excellent stuff. After that I still like the sea pump station infiltration and Pola Ivanova. I even don't mind the 'fight' in Stacey's house and the quiche moment. The abandoned mine and the Golden Gate finale are fine too.

    But boy, the fire at city hall and the ensuing chase hurt the film. I'm convinced AVTAK could be a favourite if they had done things differently for those two scenes. Stacey gets a lot of slack, but her worst moments are during these scenes. There is also zero tension during either scene. Glen has delivered some of the series' best action and suspense scenes, but these two are some of the worst. That ridiculous buffoon of a sheriff doesn't help things either. Such a pity, really.
    There are many things I like about AVTAK; its finale/villain plot is my favourite one (although I have to ignore the machine-gun violence). What I don't like are the Pola Ivanova side plot, some goofy dialogue and Mayday, except her sacrifice in the end. I actually like the firetruck chase, perhaps because Frisco is still an exotic location for me and I've rarely seen a Frisco chase on screen.

    I love AVTAK, so this isn't meant as a real criticism, but when you mentioned the Pola Ivanova sideplot, I thought, "Isn't 90% of AVTAK sideplot?" It's strange how late into the proceedings Bond and the audience are truly clued into what Zorin is doing. They're already in the bloody mine!

    Again, love the movie, but the Nazi stuff, the horse stuff, the former KGB thing,its really a lot of sideplot, isn't it?

    More ammo that shows how the tone and focus of this film are just all over the place. It's like they had all of these leftover ideas, didn't want to get rid of them and threw them into the screenplay.
  • marcmarc Universal Exports
    edited July 2020 Posts: 2,611
    I like sideplots in general, I just find the Ivanova sideplot cringy. I like very much how the tension builds up in AVTAK until the final plot reveal which is already hinted at in the zeppelin. And I would say that the 'grandeur' of his scheme is, in a way, indirectly conveyed by the menace Zorin and Mayday exude (he seems to be stronger than the KGB almost) and the score.
    'All over the place' - may be, but for me it works overall, plotwise.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,318
    marc wrote: »
    I like sideplots in general, I just find the Ivanova sideplot cringy. I like very much how the tension builds up in AVTAK until the final plot reveal which is already hinted at in the zeppelin. And I would say that the 'grandeur' of his scheme is, in a way, indirectly conveyed by the menace Zorin and Mayday exude (he seems to be stronger than the KGB almost) and the score.
    'All over the place' - may be, but for me it works overall, plotwise.
    It doesn't tickle your tshaikovski?
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,318
    echo wrote: »
    For me this is where QoS fails. Why Bolivia? The film is missing its moment of stakes, that "We're doing this in Bolivia first and then we are going to do this throughout the world."

    Not to mention that the plot basically comes down to a lease signing in a hotel.

    Hints are given all along that there's more to it than 'just' Bolivia. Bond kills one of the special envoy to the prime Minister 's men. He's a member of q too. The next operation is in Canada. In other words, bond is just starting to unravel something that, in the words of white,' has people everywhere '. I love that, and it's a pity both sf and SP miss the opportunity to connect to those links. It would've made SP a lot bigger, and more dangerous.
  • marcmarc Universal Exports
    Posts: 2,611
    Don't like Tchaikovsky much
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    edited July 2020 Posts: 7,198
    CommanderRoss wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    For me this is where QoS fails. Why Bolivia? The film is missing its moment of stakes, that "We're doing this in Bolivia first and then we are going to do this throughout the world."

    Not to mention that the plot basically comes down to a lease signing in a hotel.

    Hints are given all along that there's more to it than 'just' Bolivia. Bond kills one of the special envoy to the prime Minister 's men. He's a member of q too. The next operation is in Canada. In other words, bond is just starting to unravel something that, in the words of white,' has people everywhere '. I love that, and it's a pity both sf and SP miss the opportunity to connect to those links. It would've made SP a lot bigger, and more dangerous.

    I love how QOS hints at things rather than pointing them out.
  • BT3366BT3366
    Posts: 1,926
    It seems the groundwork was laid for revealing more and more about Quantum in future films. Kind of the way they teased Spectre in Dr. No and it got bigger in FRWL and by TB and YOLT was a vast network.

    Getting the rights to Spectre and the gap between QoS and SF led to Quantum being pushed aside.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited July 2020 Posts: 8,201
    They’re basically the same thing in all but name. If they were simply left unnamed in QOS like they were on CR, then there wouldn’t be so much fan gripes over it. That’s why it’s not such a big deal for me. It’s better than just abandoning QOS altogether with no reference. Made sense to just say Quantum and SPECTRE are the same.
  • TorgeirtrapTorgeirtrap
    Posts: 17,814
    marc wrote: »
    I've had WLAN for some minutes and watched the first mins of the Bullitt chase. As you've said, fantastic score and direction, and I like the landscape a lot. Intend to watch the whole movie soon and to check out Schifrins film scores. Thanks for the recommendations (those by @Torgeirtrap as well)!

    All worth a watch! Not that they're anything similar to Bullitt, of course. Just personal favourites.
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,218
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    They’re basically the same thing in all but name. If they were simply left unnamed in QOS like they were on CR, then there wouldn’t be so much fan gripes over it. That’s why it’s not such a big deal for me. It’s better than just abandoning QOS altogether with no reference. Made sense to just say Quantum and SPECTRE are the same.

    Agreed. And they only gave the name Quantum because they did not have the rights at the time.
    BT3366 wrote: »
    ProfJoeButcher wrote: »
    marc wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    AVTAK has a great first half. The ski chase, the title song, Paris, the château. I think that's all excellent stuff. After that I still like the sea pump station infiltration and Pola Ivanova. I even don't mind the 'fight' in Stacey's house and the quiche moment. The abandoned mine and the Golden Gate finale are fine too.

    But boy, the fire at city hall and the ensuing chase hurt the film. I'm convinced AVTAK could be a favourite if they had done things differently for those two scenes. Stacey gets a lot of slack, but her worst moments are during these scenes. There is also zero tension during either scene. Glen has delivered some of the series' best action and suspense scenes, but these two are some of the worst. That ridiculous buffoon of a sheriff doesn't help things either. Such a pity, really.
    There are many things I like about AVTAK; its finale/villain plot is my favourite one (although I have to ignore the machine-gun violence). What I don't like are the Pola Ivanova side plot, some goofy dialogue and Mayday, except her sacrifice in the end. I actually like the firetruck chase, perhaps because Frisco is still an exotic location for me and I've rarely seen a Frisco chase on screen.

    I love AVTAK, so this isn't meant as a real criticism, but when you mentioned the Pola Ivanova sideplot, I thought, "Isn't 90% of AVTAK sideplot?" It's strange how late into the proceedings Bond and the audience are truly clued into what Zorin is doing. They're already in the bloody mine!

    Again, love the movie, but the Nazi stuff, the horse stuff, the former KGB thing,its really a lot of sideplot, isn't it?

    More ammo that shows how the tone and focus of this film are just all over the place. It's like they had all of these leftover ideas, didn't want to get rid of them and threw them into the screenplay.

    My controversial opinion about AVTAK : the side plots and side characters are the most interesting parts of the movie.
  • AstonLotusAstonLotus
    Posts: 1,394
    The russian agent side plot isnt actually one at all.Its just a fun scene of Bond seducing a russian agent to get a tape.Its played of course that they are trying double cross each other like Bond and Anya in TSWLM in which case it would have played a lot better if Barbara Bach had returned for this film.
  • MalloryMallory
    Posts: 2,171
    What I find odd about AVTAK is that the 'B' plot - the horse doping - takes up the first half of the movie. M and Q task Bond with investigating Zorin's plant for the microchip leak and then goes off investigating how Pegasus can win the race. He only unintentionally stumbles across Zorin's stockpile of microchips at his chateau.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,584
    Mallory wrote: »
    What I find odd about AVTAK is that the 'B' plot - the horse doping - takes up the first half of the movie. M and Q task Bond with investigating Zorin's plant for the microchip leak and then goes off investigating how Pegasus can win the race. He only unintentionally stumbles across Zorin's stockpile of microchips at his chateau.

    I think this may be an occurring theme in Bond movies - although I haven't thought too deeply about it - certainly in GF Bond is sent to uncover how Goldfinger smuggles his gold, and uncovers operation Grand Slam as he goes along.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,714
    It is. DN, GF, DAF, MR and OP all do it. OHMSS, LALD, and TSWLM also do to some extent. It's pretty rare for Bond to know what the villain is actually up to in the first half of the film.
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