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Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • MalloryMallory
    Posts: 2,162
    NicNac wrote: »
    Mallory wrote: »
    What I find odd about AVTAK is that the 'B' plot - the horse doping - takes up the first half of the movie. M and Q task Bond with investigating Zorin's plant for the microchip leak and then goes off investigating how Pegasus can win the race. He only unintentionally stumbles across Zorin's stockpile of microchips at his chateau.

    I think this may be an occurring theme in Bond movies - although I haven't thought too deeply about it - certainly in GF Bond is sent to uncover how Goldfinger smuggles his gold, and uncovers operation Grand Slam as he goes along.

    True NicNac, but in GF, Bond's original mission is to investigate the gold smuggling. In AVTAK his mission from the start is the microchip leak, but he is almost immediately sidetracked by the horse doping.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    Mallory wrote: »
    NicNac wrote: »
    Mallory wrote: »
    What I find odd about AVTAK is that the 'B' plot - the horse doping - takes up the first half of the movie. M and Q task Bond with investigating Zorin's plant for the microchip leak and then goes off investigating how Pegasus can win the race. He only unintentionally stumbles across Zorin's stockpile of microchips at his chateau.

    I think this may be an occurring theme in Bond movies - although I haven't thought too deeply about it - certainly in GF Bond is sent to uncover how Goldfinger smuggles his gold, and uncovers operation Grand Slam as he goes along.

    True NicNac, but in GF, Bond's original mission is to investigate the gold smuggling. In AVTAK his mission from the start is the microchip leak, but he is almost immediately sidetracked by the horse doping.

    Right, I see your point. No explanation why Bond takes a sudden interest in something un-associated with his mission.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited July 2020 Posts: 6,288
    I watched TMWTGG for the first time in a long time. I'm usually bored to tears by this point, but the final third of the film (Solex notwithstanding) is considerably stronger than the first two thirds.

    Also, Pepper's repeated reference to the Thai people as "pointy heads" is *really* uncomfortable. I'd rather have any other character from LALD (Solitaire, Mrs. Bell, Baron Samedi) show up in the AMC Hornet with Bond.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,113
    My favourite Moneypenny is Caroline Bliss.

    My favourite Felix is Bernie Casey.
  • ToTheRightToTheRight
    Posts: 16,154
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    My favourite Moneypenny is Caroline Bliss.

    My favourite Felix is Bernie Casey.

    I think that's a GREAT opinion.
    Casey, IMO was an excellent Felix and Bliss an extremely underrated Moneypenny. Lois is still my favorite, though I prefer Bliss over Samantha Bond.

  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,182
    Here’s mine: John Terry should have been brought back for LTK. He’s proven to be a capable actor elsewhere, and bringing him back makes more sense than an over the hill David Hedison. I think he gets unfairly maligned because his role in TLD was so brief and he had to deliver some cheesy dialogue.

    I also don’t understand the appreciation Rik Van Nutter. All he does is say his lines, he doesn’t have a personality like any of the other Felixes. And he only got the gig because he was close pals with Cubby. Should have brought back Cec Linder and kept him throughout the Connery films. Although I would have wanted Jack Lord, of course.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,711
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    My favourite Moneypenny is Caroline Bliss.

    My favourite Felix is Bernie Casey.

    I think Caroline is my favorite Moneypenny too. She and Dalton are perfect in TLD.
  • BT3366BT3366
    Posts: 1,917
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    Here’s mine: John Terry should have been brought back for LTK. He’s proven to be a capable actor elsewhere, and bringing him back makes more sense than an over the hill David Hedison. I think he gets unfairly maligned because his role in TLD was so brief and he had to deliver some cheesy dialogue.

    I also don’t understand the appreciation Rik Van Nutter. All he does is say his lines, he doesn’t have a personality like any of the other Felixes. And he only got the gig because he was close pals with Cubby. Should have brought back Cec Linder and kept him throughout the Connery films. Although I would have wanted Jack Lord, of course.
    Completely agree on the first part. The guy only had two scenes, was he really that awful? I thought he was the right age and seemed like he could hold his own next to Bond as opposed to Cec Linder or Norman Burton.

    Big no to Cec Linder, though, my least favorite Leiter. Zero personality or charisma. Lord would've been a much better fit, although he doesn't exactly light up the screen either, personality-wise, but at least seems more than just a company guy, but one who could help Bond physically.

    I kinda like Van Nutter as he more physically resembles the Leiter of the novels than his predecessors.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,182
    For me the personality is more important than the physicality. Van Nutter may “look” more like how we want Leiter to look, but he’s got zero personality/charisma next to Cec Linder, who at least comes off in GF as someone that’s a familiar buddy with Bond “that’s my James”. All Van Nutter does is fly a helicopter and recite lines like “you’re right James, we don’t have much time”.
  • jobojobo
    Posts: 7,507
    Mallory wrote: »
    What I find odd about AVTAK is that the 'B' plot - the horse doping - takes up the first half of the movie. M and Q task Bond with investigating Zorin's plant for the microchip leak and then goes off investigating how Pegasus can win the race. He only unintentionally stumbles across Zorin's stockpile of microchips at his chateau.

    That is what makes the plot very Flemingesque and why I like it. It is a classic Fleming trope that Bond is sent to investigate a lesser crime to uncover a much bigger and grave one.
  • RevelatorRevelator
    Posts: 2,917
    jobo wrote: »
    That is what makes the plot very Flemingesque and why I like it. It is a classic Fleming trope that Bond is sent to investigate a lesser crime to uncover a much bigger and grave one.

    That is indeed a Fleming trope, but one could argue that AVTAK doesn't employ it very well. The horse doping subplot goes on for too long and doesn't have much do with the Silicon Valley scheme. It just shows how Zorin cheats at horse racing. In Goldfinger the villain's tendency to cheat is dealt with just a minutes after the credits, and then Bond is sent to investigate gold smuggling, which leads to the discovery of a plot to increase the value of Goldfinger's gold reserves. There's a thematic connection ans consistency that isn't present in AVTAK.

  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,619
    echo wrote: »
    I watched TMWTGG for the first time in a long time. I'm usually bored to tears by this point, but the final third of the film (Solex notwithstanding) is considerably stronger than the first two thirds.

    Christopher Lee really saved TMWTGG from being unwatchable, really. I like because it is more realistic than other Bond movies.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,182
    Revelator wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    That is what makes the plot very Flemingesque and why I like it. It is a classic Fleming trope that Bond is sent to investigate a lesser crime to uncover a much bigger and grave one.

    That is indeed a Fleming trope, but one could argue that AVTAK doesn't employ it very well. The horse doping subplot goes on for too long and doesn't have much do with the Silicon Valley scheme. It just shows how Zorin cheats at horse racing. In Goldfinger the villain's tendency to cheat is dealt with just a minutes after the credits, and then Bond is sent to investigate gold smuggling, which leads to the discovery of a plot to increase the value of Goldfinger's gold reserves. There's a thematic connection ans consistency that isn't present in AVTAK.

    A trope that originated with MR. It’s excellent there because the card cheating allows us to get an idea of who Drax really is before we even find out his true identity. Summed up at the very end of that night with “I should spend the money quickly, Commander Bond”.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,546
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    Revelator wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    That is what makes the plot very Flemingesque and why I like it. It is a classic Fleming trope that Bond is sent to investigate a lesser crime to uncover a much bigger and grave one.

    That is indeed a Fleming trope, but one could argue that AVTAK doesn't employ it very well. The horse doping subplot goes on for too long and doesn't have much do with the Silicon Valley scheme. It just shows how Zorin cheats at horse racing. In Goldfinger the villain's tendency to cheat is dealt with just a minutes after the credits, and then Bond is sent to investigate gold smuggling, which leads to the discovery of a plot to increase the value of Goldfinger's gold reserves. There's a thematic connection ans consistency that isn't present in AVTAK.

    A trope that originated with MR. It’s excellent there because the card cheating allows us to get an idea of who Drax really is before we even find out his true identity. Summed up at the very end of that night with “I should spend the money quickly, Commander Bond”.

    Made me think of MR as well, as Blades also seems to take up a large part of the novel if I recall correctly.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,182
    It’s at least two or three chapters long. It’s probably my favorite section of the book.
  • RevelatorRevelator
    edited July 2020 Posts: 2,917
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    A trope that originated with MR. It’s excellent there because the card cheating allows us to get an idea of who Drax really is before we even find out his true identity.

    I would add that though it takes up several chapters, the sequence has a simple and effective structure: it builds into a tense duel between Bond and the villain. How Drax cheats is ultimately much less important than how Bond will teach him a lesson. Whereas in AVTAK the emphasis is on finding out how Zorin cheats at horse racing, which is much less compelling.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,182
    It's definitely not tied together well in AVTAK.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,546
    It's amazing. Fleming in his element it seems.
  • RogerJonMoorePertweeRogerJonMoorePertwee UK
    Posts: 348
    In terms of the Shirley Bassey title songs, I think I've always preferred Diamonds Are Forever and (to an extent) Moonraker over Goldfinger. Thinking about it now, I think the other two songs are better written (or maybe the lyrics are more to my taste) and I prefer her style of singing in both songs - some of the notes she hits in Goldfinger go through me a bit whenever I listen to it.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,711
    RogerJonMoorePertwee wrote: »
    In terms of the Shirley Bassey title songs, I think I've always preferred Diamonds Are Forever and (to an extent) Moonraker over Goldfinger. Thinking about it now, I think the other two songs are better written (or maybe the lyrics are more to my taste) and I prefer her style of singing in both songs - some of the notes she hits in Goldfinger go through me a bit whenever I listen to it.

    Me too. Goldfinger works in the context of the film, but as a song, it's pretty obnoxious, and the lyrics are, well, stupid. Shouting "he loves gold!" at the end is kind of hilarious.

    Moonraker and Diamonds I think are both gorgeous songs.
  • marcmarc Universal Exports
    Posts: 2,610
    echo wrote: »
    I watched TMWTGG for the first time in a long time. I'm usually bored to tears by this point, but the final third of the film (Solex notwithstanding) is considerably stronger than the first two thirds.
    Considerably
  • AstonLotusAstonLotus
    edited July 2020 Posts: 1,394
    Denise Richards gave a perfectly good performance in TWINE.Shes a much better actor than people give her credit for.The character of Christmas Jones is ridiculous ( Everyone even her knew that ) and she played the role well,especially the comedic scenes.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,619
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    Denise Richards gave a perfectly good performance in TWINE.Shes a much better actor than people give her credit for.The character of Christmas Jones is ridiculous ( Everyone even her knew that ) and she played the role well,especially the comedic scenes.

    +1.
  • MalloryMallory
    Posts: 2,162
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    Denise Richards gave a perfectly good performance in TWINE.Shes a much better actor than people give her credit for.The character of Christmas Jones is ridiculous ( Everyone even her knew that ) and she played the role well,especially the comedic scenes.

    She does exactly what is asked to do.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,288
    She's fine. My biggest issue is that she is too young for Brosnan.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,026
    ProfJoeButcher wrote: »
    RogerJonMoorePertwee wrote: »
    In terms of the Shirley Bassey title songs, I think I've always preferred Diamonds Are Forever and (to an extent) Moonraker over Goldfinger. Thinking about it now, I think the other two songs are better written (or maybe the lyrics are more to my taste) and I prefer her style of singing in both songs - some of the notes she hits in Goldfinger go through me a bit whenever I listen to it.

    Me too. Goldfinger works in the context of the film, but as a song, it's pretty obnoxious, and the lyrics are, well, stupid. Shouting "he loves gold!" at the end is kind of hilarious.

    Moonraker and Diamonds I think are both gorgeous songs.
    I think all three of them are gorgeous songs. But at the same time, the lyrics of all three "are, well, stupid". Whether Leslie Bricusse - the YOLT theme is no better in this regard, by the way...only Barry's far eastern music foray makes that one special - but then, Dame Shirley is a far, far, far, far (add more fars at your own discretion) superior singer over Nancy Sinatra - , Don Black or Hal David, they seem to all have been told to shoehorn the movie title into their lyrics, no matter if it makes sense, especially if you have to find rhymes. Goldfinger is no better nor worse in that regard. But it still is the absolute epitome of what the world considers a Bond theme song, and quite a number of later attempts mirror that. As with many aspects of Goldfinger, it is iconic because it was so unique at the time, and remains character-defining for the franchise. At any rate, basically all of the the John Barry themes owe more to the composer than the lyricist.

  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,288
    FWIW, I think the lyrics of YOLT and DAF make a lot more sense than those of GF and MR.

    YOLT benefits by being sung in the second person.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,546
    echo wrote: »
    FWIW, I think the lyrics of YOLT and DAF make a lot more sense than those of GF and MR.

    YOLT benefits by being sung in the second person.

    YOLT has beautiful lyrics and is the main reason it's one of my favourite Bond themes.

    The lyrics to GF bother me because it seems to me like sometimes she's singing about Bond, sometimes about Goldfinger.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,182
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    Denise Richards gave a perfectly good performance in TWINE.Shes a much better actor than people give her credit for.The character of Christmas Jones is ridiculous ( Everyone even her knew that ) and she played the role well,especially the comedic scenes.

    While she’s not good, I don’t think she’s anywhere close to the worst actresses and for me is the least of TWINE’s problems.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    edited July 2020 Posts: 1,711
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    ProfJoeButcher wrote: »
    RogerJonMoorePertwee wrote: »
    In terms of the Shirley Bassey title songs, I think I've always preferred Diamonds Are Forever and (to an extent) Moonraker over Goldfinger. Thinking about it now, I think the other two songs are better written (or maybe the lyrics are more to my taste) and I prefer her style of singing in both songs - some of the notes she hits in Goldfinger go through me a bit whenever I listen to it.

    Me too. Goldfinger works in the context of the film, but as a song, it's pretty obnoxious, and the lyrics are, well, stupid. Shouting "he loves gold!" at the end is kind of hilarious.

    Moonraker and Diamonds I think are both gorgeous songs.
    I think all three of them are gorgeous songs. But at the same time, the lyrics of all three "are, well, stupid". Whether Leslie Bricusse - the YOLT theme is no better in this regard, by the way...only Barry's far eastern music foray makes that one special - but then, Dame Shirley is a far, far, far, far (add more fars at your own discretion) superior singer over Nancy Sinatra - , Don Black or Hal David, they seem to all have been told to shoehorn the movie title into their lyrics, no matter if it makes sense, especially if you have to find rhymes. Goldfinger is no better nor worse in that regard. But it still is the absolute epitome of what the world considers a Bond theme song, and quite a number of later attempts mirror that. As with many aspects of Goldfinger, it is iconic because it was so unique at the time, and remains character-defining for the franchise. At any rate, basically all of the the John Barry themes owe more to the composer than the lyricist.

    The lyrics of DAF and MR are not in the same realm of stupid as GF. "He loves gold" is a simplistic childish subject-verb-object lyric below anything Disney would consider clever enough for a children's film. "Such a cold finger beckons you to enter his web of sin!" Oh, gee whiz Shirley, what should I do? "Don't go in!" Oh, don't go in his web of sin, okay. Moronic.

    But it is, as you say, the epitome of what the world considers a Bond song, just as a bald pervert in a volcano lair is what the world considers to be a Bond plot. It is without question the lowest common denominator.

    EDIT Actually very few Bond songs imitate the lyrical idiocy of Goldfinger. TMWTGG I guess is the only one. But even that manages to describe the character accurately. "Golden words he will pour in your ear"? We don't see that, and it's not easy to imagine.
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